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weathered fair

Hey, anybody ever feel like the LGBT movement is more like the GGGG movement?

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R_1

I really don't understand why men get off on the idea of lesbianism... :blink:

If you're a horny straight man, how would you feel if 2 girls offered you sex after you seen them having sex?

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Mirai19

I really don't understand why men get off on the idea of lesbianism... :blink:

If you're a horny straight man, how would you feel if 2 girls offered you sex after you seen them having sex?

I kind of see what you mean, but it just seems weird to me; I can't relate.

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Great Thief Yatagarasu

I really don't understand why men get off on the idea of lesbianism... :blink:

If you're a horny straight man, how would you feel if 2 girls offered you sex after you seen them having sex?

I kind of see what you mean, but it just seems weird to me; I can't relate.

I can, since I like the idea of gay guys. :3 I put it down to basic maths: 1 + 1 = 2. If one girl is very sexy, and you add one other very sexy girl, you get twice the sexiness. And that sexiness is presumably multiplied once actual sex is put into the equation.

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FreedomRequiresWings

I believe gay women have a harder time than gay men but that's another issue.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you there. I'm not denying that lesbians get a hard time of it, everyone does, but please bear in mind the fact that a lot of fathers want their sons to marry a woman and have kids to carry on the family name and all male teenagers and young adults find it's compulsory to prove how macho they are and the best way to do that is to pick on the gay guy. From all the coming out stories I've heard, lesbians have had more accepting friends than gay men.

And I totally agree with the rest of you, as a gay male, that there needs to be more visibility for the L, B and T in the LGBT community. People often forget that, but they shouldn't. That's why I've started up a collab blog that helps LGBT teens who are questioning or coming out. Our team of authors is made up of gays, transgenders, asexuals and demisexuals, and we're still expanding. Just because that's what it appears like, it doesn't mean we gays have some kind of agenda to be the "icons of equality". That's total rubbish.

Maybe it's to do with lesbians' motivation on the issue? I have posted adverts looking for writers on lesbian forums and received nothing, whereas when I posted on Susan's, TGBoards and here on AVEN I got plenty of replies. One member of the lesbian board decided to poke fun at my post so maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not lesbian so I can't tell you. Look at some of the most active advocates for equality down the years; people think of Harvey Milk, Dan Savage, maybe Perez Hilton or Kel from Wipeout Homophobia on Facebook. They're all gay men. So where are the female bloggers and activists? It's not that they're being pushed away by the gay men who are already in the spotlight, on the contrary, the LGBT community needs to show we're a very diverse one.

If you don't agree with something, do something productive about it.

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henshin

I believe gay women have a harder time than gay men but that's another issue.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you there. I'm not denying that lesbians get a hard time of it, everyone does, but please bear in mind the fact that a lot of fathers want their sons to marry a woman and have kids to carry on the family name and all male teenagers and young adults find it's compulsory to prove how macho they are and the best way to do that is to pick on the gay guy. From all the coming out stories I've heard, lesbians have had more accepting friends than gay men.

And I totally agree with the rest of you, as a gay male, that there needs to be more visibility for the L, B and T in the LGBT community. People often forget that, but they shouldn't. That's why I've started up a collab blog that helps LGBT teens who are questioning or coming out. Our team of authors is made up of gays, transgenders, asexuals and demisexuals, and we're still expanding. Just because that's what it appears like, it doesn't mean we gays have some kind of agenda to be the "icons of equality". That's total rubbish.

Maybe it's to do with lesbians' motivation on the issue? I have posted adverts looking for writers on lesbian forums and received nothing, whereas when I posted on Susan's, TGBoards and here on AVEN I got plenty of replies. One member of the lesbian board decided to poke fun at my post so maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not lesbian so I can't tell you. Look at some of the most active advocates for equality down the years; people think of Harvey Milk, Dan Savage, maybe Perez Hilton or Kel from Wipeout Homophobia on Facebook. They're all gay men. So where are the female bloggers and activists? It's not that they're being pushed away by the gay men who are already in the spotlight, on the contrary, the LGBT community needs to show we're a very diverse one.

If you don't agree with something, do something productive about it.

I think there are a whole host of reasons why men might be more visible (I don't think you can really attribute motivation) but in terms of GLBT rights movement yeah there are fewer women well known for their activism, but thats because women were fighting for women's rights back then, women also bear the brunt of family caretaking responsibilities which means they are less active in the public sphere, women command less respect and attention than men generally do, and women also tend to get written out of history to a certain degree (the word 'hersotry isn't just a funny play on words but an actual attempt to redress a male dominated past).

Also there are some really good lesbian resources, blogs and websites out there. My current favourite is Autostraddle. But I think for a lot of active lesbians there are close links with feminism and maybe they want to invest their energies in women central spaces where they will be centre stage rather than tagging along with the men's issues.

I dunno, I'm not an authority but I don't think you can blanketly say that lesbians re less motivated than gay men because they are as visibly active any more than you can say that women care less about the state of the country because there are fewer of them in government.

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Gessekai

I don't know if it's just me but I feel as though the gay part tends to be louder to a certain degree? At least it seems that way in the slice of LBGT community I interact with. To be honest, I feel as though order of attention usually goes like this G>L>B...what's T? I find it very unfortunate that some people want to make it solely LG rights because they think the B's are just attention-seekers and the T's aren't relevant to their cause (don't even get me started on Aces...)

Perhaps I have just had the misfortune of knowing an LBGTQIA community that became saddled with too much internal drama to the point of people being unable to work together efficiently. It got to the point where people started the "I suffered more than you did" wars, which turned into the "Well, because I'm _(insert ethnicity here)_, I suffered more than you even can!" wars.

A bit off-topic here but does anyone else hear that one Girl's Generation/SNSD song when they read the topic title?

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98slbrookes98

As a side-effect, the queer (LGBT) community has also become very sexualized. When I identified as gay I was expected to love sex and lots of it and I was uncomfortable. Now that I identify as asexual, it's like I am completely invisible and feel I have no place in the queer community although I do still call myself queer.

I have the exact same feeling. It feels like so much of the LGBT community is very sexual, and I'm just not interested in that. And as a result, I've always felt kind of like an outcast in the community. Which is frustrating, because I identify as an asexual lesbian, I guess, and would like a relationship, but sex is so not the important part of it for me.

I know. I'm also an asexual lesbian and I've been frustrated al my life because of the sexualization of the gay world and it also messes up my belief that everyone is equal regardless of sexuality - once a friend of mine (who is a sexual lesbian) wanted to meet up but my mum was like "be careful because she is homosexual" and it's just so frustrating - I didn't end up meeting up but not for that reason, just because I didn't want her to go to any trouble, besides I have lost touch with her now.

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TheLinguist

I think it's just that people see gay men as an attack on masculinity.

You see, it's difficult for most of the population to see shades of gray; whenever they think of a relationship, there always has to be a dominant half and a submissive half. When it comes to two men being together, they still look for who's wearing the pants and who isn't in a gay relationship.

Lesbians are typically seen as more of a sexual fantasy for men so people don't have much of a problem with that because women, like in heterosexual relationships, are seen as equally submissive even when in same-sex ordeals. Bisexuals are seen to have the best of both worlds-- they can like people of the same and opposite genders but many people think they will lean the "right way" in choosing the opposite gender in the end, therefore eliminating the question of power altogether. Transgenders are a whole different ball park because it isn't about who has the upper hand but about the dramatic shift in power. MTF transgenders are seen to be willingly giving up their "man card" to be a woman while FTM transgenders are seen as stepping out of the kitchen.

Despite what many may believe, gay men are still men and they still want to have some pride in the fact that they are--- well, men. It doesn't compute to many that there can be equality in a relatioship without "appropriate gender roles" being assumed by the couple in question. No one has to give up their personality in these relationships by taking on roles that are considered normal in heterosexual relationships but this is just how the world sees it and that's why the G is more prevalent in many places. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. It was just my theory.

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Kitsunay

My short and sweet opinion: I agree. The likely reason that gay people are given the spotlight is due to the fact that they are the only sexual orientation that society has to 'accomodate'.

Girls normally hang out in groups, so why should lesbianism be a communist, anti-american idea (and need any special accomodations other than acceptance/tolerance), especially given that heterosexual males (the biggest demographic) enjoy the idea of two girls getting it on. Bisexuals can function normally in society and the general public seems to assume that because they can relate to half the sexual orientation, it's acceptable. Transexuals are a minority group and are generally capable of funstioning in society (from what I know), so society doesn't really notice them.

Gay men, on the other hand, are expected to act masculine because they are men, they are expected to want sex with every man they see (they're men, so they are pigs), and they are repulsive to the heterosexual, homophobic, male majority. Do the math, and gay men are the most prevalent group, and the most unappealing to the biggest chunk of population, and they are publicised a lot more to boot for the pleasure of the ignorant majority. Therefore, it is not surprising that they are the first group that comes to mind when speaking of alternate sexual orientation. It probably doesn't help that they are also one of the most unrelatable group to a majority of people.

...So much for my short and sweet opinion >.<

EDIT: also, what the person above me says.

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Kikachu

I feel like the focus on white men happens way too much in society as a whole. So it's not really /just/ the lgbtq movement. But yeah, sometimes it seems like people forget the rest of the spectrum exists...

And frankly- Lady Gaga at least put in a lot of the bigger LGBTQ groups into Born This Way. I'm thankful that she's done that at all, frankly. While seeing ace in there would've been fantastic, ace isn't very well known. It's something I'd like to change, but it is the truth.

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Leelian

I wouldn't say the 'G' from 'LGBT' is the only thing focused on that I can see, but the 'LG' or just straight up homosexuality. Bisexuality is still pretty misunderstood and receives flack from both sides. Transexuality is still pretty much looked down upon everywhere.

I realize that homosexuality is the second most familiar sexuality in the world, but other sexualities exist.

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Strivna

Moved to Off-A.

Strivna

Asexual Q&A Moderator

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FreedomRequiresWings

I wouldn't say the 'G' from 'LGBT' is the only thing focused on that I can see, but the 'LG' or just straight up homosexuality. Bisexuality is still pretty misunderstood and receives flack from both sides. Transexuality is still pretty much looked down upon everywhere.

I realize that homosexuality is the second most familiar sexuality in the world, but other sexualities exist.

Yeah this is true but some LGBTQIA places on the internet give equal attention (if not more) to all including asexuals.

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Confabulase

And frankly- Lady Gaga at least put in a lot of the bigger LGBTQ groups into Born This Way. I'm thankful that she's done that at all, frankly. While seeing ace in there would've been fantastic, ace isn't very well known. It's something I'd like to change, but it is the truth.

I wish people would stop holding something so cisnormative up as somehow representative of the whole community. It just seems insensitive and oblivious to tell trans* people that "god makes no mistakes" and that they should just be happy with the way that they were born.

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Filthy Pazuzu

I know some of this has been addressed elsewhere in this thread, but I'm just one of those annoying, long-winded people who loves pontificating.

TL/DR: People have lots of misconceptions about bisexuals, when they actually remember we exist. It sucks, so I wrote this (way too long) post.

...

Bisexuals can function normally in society and the general public seems to assume that because they can relate to half the sexual orientation, it's acceptable.

...

And now for the regularly scheduled bisexual* myth correction!

There's no hostility in this post. I like this place. From what I've seen, especially in the thoughtfulness, open-mindedness, and understanding on display in this here thread, it's open and accepting to all sorts of people. However, I do try to gently correct misconceptions like this, because they can lead to misunderstanding, and that's never good.

I have to admit, even though we bisexuals are on the often forgotten second half of LGBT* - despite how often that term is used - I'm still surprised by the many, many misconceptions people have about bisexuals, but I don't think I've ever seen the one in the quote above. It's kind of the opposite of what we normally get.

We typically get hit on all sides. Many don't understand us, and people (still) makes ridiculous assumptions about us. We have to correct these assumptions so often, pretty much every bisexual blogger and commentator has at least one post correcting the most common and egregious myths. Here's the shortest quote I can find that covers the worst and most common of them:

From Suburban Bi:

Existence. Yes – we do.

Monogamy. Yes – we can.

Fidelity. Yes – we can. And – we do.

HIV & AIDS. No – it’s not all our fault.

Confusion. No – we’re really not.

Indecision. No – that’s not what fluidity means.

Greed. Yes, we can have just one piece of cake.

Pants. Yes – we’re as capable as anyone else of keeping our various bits in them.

Choice. No – we cannot choose to be straight; we cannot choose to be gay; we did not choose our sexual orientation in some thoughtlessly frivolous moment of rapacious abandon. Who does?

Basically, we're often considered to be frivolous, indecisive, promiscuous, disease-spreading, fence-sitting unicorns. And we typically get abused more by gays and lesbians and - although this one is more recent - transsexuals. Heterosexuals treat us differently depending on the gender-identities involved.

I'm gonna simplify the worst of it: Heterocentric straight males fantasize about bisexual women (as seen on TV), but are often hostile to bisexual men - often to such an extent they engage in verbal and, yes, physical abuse. Heterocentric straight women often refuse to date bisexual men for many of the "reasons" quoted above, but mostly because they think bi men are gonna cheat on them with - or leave them for - another man, despite a straight male being just at risk of doing the same with another woman. The bigotry is obvious in both of those attitudes.

So, in the end, it's not always milk and honey. And, as is usually my purpose in this cosmos, I only complicate things by being an asexual bisexual. Something many people cannot wrap their heads around. (But I know plenty here can!)

AS FOR THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE THREAD: Yes, it seems heterocentric people are most comfortable with gay men. I blame a lot of this on TV. There's been shows about lesbians that are mostly watched by lesbians, but not so many main characters who just happen to be lesbians in shows that don't revolve around that fact. It's surprising (or maybe not) how much effect TV has on people's opinions, especially here in America.

Cheers!

Paz

*: Yes, I am aware of the controversy surrounding the word "bisexual", and the objections many people have to a seemingly binary-centric word. I've used and seen pan-, omni-, and polysexual; gender-neutral and -indifferent; fluid; and our old friend "queer" in the past. To be honest, I got really tired of explaining those terms to people who'd never heard them before. In day-to-day conversation I really don't enjoy talking about my sexuality that much (or anyone else's, for that matter.) For an explanatory piece on the controversy, and why some people - including me - still choose to use "bisexual", please read this excellent post on Radical Bi.

*: I am really not a fan of the term "LGBT". Trans is included, but I don't think many who use the term are thinking of trans-anything, and when they do it's only M2F & F2M. Yes, there are longer versions of the term, but I personally think initialisms longer than 3 letters are annoying. Acronyms can go longer, because they're pronounceable, and are basically mnemonics. Unfortunately I don't have a good solution. But I do look forward to the day we no longer have the need for a term labeling, lumping together, and isolating everyone's own personal variations of sexuality, sex, and gender - including cis & straight.

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Kitsunay

Ah, sorry about that. I was thinking from the point of view of close friends of bisexuals and extrapolating the reaction to society. On second thought, from the many stories I've read, I can understand the idea much better. I often take my lack of social urges for granted, and thus, I have limited information to base my hypothesis on.

Nonetheless, thank you for the correction, and hopefully, it has helped readers to set their misconceptions to rest. I have a feeling though, that here, my misconception was a rather unique happening.

As a side note, I have found since I last posted here, that lesbians are almost always portrayed in pop culture as 'butch', 'punk', 'goth', or extremely over-the-top 'hot' girls. Likewise, gays are usually gentle giants (dark skin optional), or extremely flamboyant caucasians who would almost be 1950s poster boys. Having found AVEN, I'm a lot more aware of these misconceptions, rather than writing it off as being possible due to inexperience.

I hadn't realized how cynical my post was, nor how little I had considered interaction with strangers as being the largest cause of bother. I can, however, understand it's power, as I am frequently annoyed by strangers taking a quaint interest in my pursuits because they're looking for boredom relief.

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