Jump to content
Rabger

To Sexual Partners

Recommended Posts

maufry
It's hard for me to read this, because for a sexual I just want to scream "It's not secondary! It's BECAUSE you're awesome that they want to fuck you! AHHH!"

I think maybe that impression, for me, comes from the fact that I don't see the difference b/t complete strangers hitting on me with that leering look in their eyes and a boyfriend getting the same look in his eyes. For the complete stranger, of course it's only about the sex. He's not interested in getting to know me, he just wants a one night stand for his own pleasure. It has nothing to do with me as a person, I'm just a walking vagina to him. I guess b/c I don't see sex as an emotional thing, I just can't seem to understand how that one night stand mentality is any different from the boyfriend mentality.

This is so insulting. Not that I'm feeling insulted by you, personally, but to sexuals as a whole, this is insulting. I don't know many people who really see other people only as sex toys, and it would be so frustrating and hurtful for me to hear that someone thought I was so selfish that I could see them only as a tool to give myself an orgasm. I understand that you don't try to foster this outlook, but still...

Yeah, I can understand that. I don't mean to be insulting, lol. I think it comes from the reason I stated above - I don't comprehend the emotional side of sex, so therefore the only other reason for it that I can see is just physical pleasure. It's just something I don't get, I guess.

Also, the fact that I get turned on by him and feel frustrated that I'm not having as much sex as I want doesn't mean that I don't enjoy his company. Come to think of it, I'd enjoy his company if we were having sex too! It's not like the two are mutually exclusive. To me, and I'd bet most sexuals, it doesn't feel like our personality turns off. It's still there, we are still thinking and feeling - it's so hard to understand why anyone would feel like you do, that we become a different person. I can see maybe not really liking that aspect of a sexual's personality, but I think it's important to understand that the sexual is *not* changing. If anything, you're perceiving them differently.

This is definitely a perspective difference. B/c sex - to me - is purely physical and I don't like it, it's hurtful (emotionally, as well as physically) to me. So from my perspective, my boyfriend goes from being this wonderful tender person to someone trying to hurt me. Which is where the personality dichotomy comes in. Intellectually I know that this isn't the case, but no matter how hard I try, I can't get my heart to realize what my brain knows. It's frustrating. So I can understand where you guys might be coming from, too, b/c I guess it's the same feeling for you, it's just that the lack of sex is the hurtful thing instead of the presence of it.

Maufry, your responses sound so angry. I'm guessing you feel your partners have hurt you or insulted you in some way, and you're repaying the favor to the sexual community as a whole. I get that. But the anger isn't going to lead you to a real understanding of what's going on, it's just going to throw up a wall for you to hide behind. If you turn those you don't understand into "the enemy", then, sure, you can feel better about yourself. You're the reasonable one, and they're just bastards who want to use you. There are sexual people who do the same thing... casting their asexual partners as psychologically damaged, inhuman monsters.

I can see your point. I definitely have the type of personality that angers easily. Like I said, a guy's desire to have sex with me is hurtful to me, b/c I feel that it's so disrespectful and insulting and selfish (my brain knows it isn't, but as I said, I haven't figured out how to feel what I know) so I guess that's where that comes in. And yes, I do translate that to the sexual community as a whole (well, to the men, anyways - since I'm straight I don't deal with the female aspect of this whole thing), b/c it's sex that's the issue for me. I'm not consciously trying to turn you guys into the enemy, but I can't change the fact that anyone who wants to do such a thing with me is automatically going to hurt me, just by having that desire. Not that I believe it's intentional, by any means. I know that not all guys are bastards when it comes to sex, but I can't change the fact that it's something that I neither desire nor like. Just as they can't change the fact that they *do* desire and like it. I'm not trying to argue why I'm the reasonable one and you guys are the monsters, b/c that's not what I think. I'm just trying to explain my feelings on the subject. Again, all of this is why I now avoid relationships with sexuals. Not b/c I think you're horrible people, but just b/c it's such a huge issue for me that I know that it just won't be reconcilable. And I realize that I'm going to end up hurting them as much as they'll end up hurting me. I may not understand exactly why avoidance of sex would be hurtful, but I know that it apparently is. Just as I'm sure you guys don't understand why wanting sex is hurtful, but nonetheless it is (for me, anyways, I can't really speak for anyone else on here).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chiaroscuro
Again, all of this is why I now avoid relationships with sexuals. Not b/c I think you're horrible people, but just b/c it's such a huge issue for me that I know that it just won't be reconcilable. And I realize that I'm going to end up hurting them as much as they'll end up hurting me. I may not understand exactly why avoidance of sex would be hurtful, but I know that it apparently is. Just as I'm sure you guys don't understand why wanting sex is hurtful, but nonetheless it is (for me, anyways, I can't really speak for anyone else on here).

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Maufry. We all are in your boat, actually. None of us can really understand what it's like on the other side of the divide. The best we can do is be true to ourselves and try not to take the other side's orientation personally. On an individual level, that's really hard to unravel... what's about ME and what's about me being SEXUAL? I actually agree that mixed relationships are more or less doomed to failure unless one side or the other "changes" their orientation, or both sides are willing to move to some middle ground.

Your friend who has no desire to have sex with you,

-Chiaroscuro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
osito

Wow! Wow!!! Woohoo!

Something has really clicked for me here, with the lightning grasp of the obvious. I hope I can find the words. Be warned, though...it could become another osito filibuster :oops:.

The communication in this thread is just wonderful! Here we are on two sides of a chasm saturated with emotion on both sides, and so fragile are the bridges that sexual/asexual relationships often seem doomed (all mine sure were :cry: ) and yet this amazing outreach is going on here. You all ROCK!!

Now, dang it, there's a part of me (down! heel! play dead!) that keeps wanting to uncover a psychological Theory of Everything, within whose matrix all these conundrums (like sexuality for asexuals and vice-versa) can be resolved. I feel this way because dialogues like this one above have truly broken trail--certainly for me. Wow. :D

Several things leaped out at me--the first of which is that piggy, selfish sex, or sex without tenderness for the other person--has really, really mucked things up for sexuals and asexuals alike. It came up in several ways. Here's what Maufry said:

I think maybe that impression, for me, comes from the fact that I don't see the difference b/t complete strangers hitting on me with that leering look in their eyes and a boyfriend getting the same look in his eyes. For the complete stranger, of course it's only about the sex. He's not interested in getting to know me, he just wants a one night stand for his own pleasure. It has nothing to do with me as a person, I'm just a walking vagina to him. I guess b/c I don't see sex as an emotional thing, I just can't seem to understand how that one night stand mentality is any different from the boyfriend mentality.

This has been my experience exactly. In fact, much of what Maufry says in this thread, I could have said. It is possible for me to understand intellectually that sexual people naturally entwine sexual attraction with other types of deep appreciation for another person's mind, talents, style, wit etc., but it is not possible for my heart to embrace it. And what Bunny and Chiaroscuro say makes it clear that for sexual people it is (or often is) one joyous, loving continuum from a hug to cuddling to kissing to foreplay to consummation. And even outside a committed relationship there can be this same continuum of warmth, joy, attraction leading onward. As an asexual, I recognize that...from somewhere! I have felt the romantic budding and flowering, then held hands, shared a hug.. and then wham! I hit "the line" that y'all are talking about. Even when I have continued on into sex because the other person wanted it, I hit the line again in my mind the next day, and...so concludes another one-night stand. And maybe that makes me part of the problem. Maybe I have been perceived as someone who just wanted to get laid (even if I didn't) and didn't give a rat's ass about the guy (and sometimes I did; I just did not want a second night of "it").

Something else Maufry said really hit home for me.

Personally, I'd be much more willing to possibly experiment with what I'm comfortable with if I knew he wasn't ALWAYS in the mood. If I were to initiate something, I would actually *want* to be rejected some of the time. That way, whenever it actually went somewhere, it would feel like maybe it meant something. When a guy's always in the mood, it just seems so cheap and impersonal. To me, anyways.

Whew...I remember that once, years ago, a couple I knew told me about a man they knew who had no interest in sex. He was a friend of theirs, and also a novelty to them, and impulsively, I said I'd like to meet him (whoa, where did THAT come from!??). It didn't end up happening, because I was too embarrassed to pursue it sufficiently to make it happen, but I had a flood of thoughts much like what Maufry said above.

I was raised without religion. I later embraced the philosophies and spirituality of The Sixties--not blindly, but with due consideration, and had anyone asked me about sex and spirituality then, I'd have pointed the finger at the ugly co-optation of eros and consciousness represented by Eve and the Serpent. There were many windows which opened to me during those entheogenic times, but, as with most things fleeting and visionary, they tended to close again unless grounded. I could never manage to ground anything sexual with another person, no matter how much of my all I gave it. I was certainly never presented with--to my knowledge--an opportunity to make a move on a man who was romantically attractive but who I knew did not like sex. It's rather like the fairytale of the Frog Prince...I might well have done it--that is, taken the initiative and kissed the frog.

The question is...why?

Here's where I keep reaching for a single, simple answer. I know that in my own early childhood, including the first several years of elementary school, I had multiple emotional traumas (their fault, the crass, dumb little bullies :x) that set me apart from both boys and girls my age. I was gender-identified as male; only later did I come to cultivate my androgyny and acknowledge my feminine aspects. In my case, trust--or rather absence of it--seems to be at the core of my asexuality. A deep distrust of my fellow humans took root when I was far too young to have any strategies against it, and at a time when (I suspect) our pliable human neural circuitry gets partitioned. I am not saying this is what's going on with all asexual people, but Chiaroscuro has intimated that childhood abuse could be causal in Sunset's asexuality, and I have read other similar things here. I accept that this is just one subset.

I think that when someone is insecure about something and is allowed to take the initiative, it opens an otherwise locked door. The pressure is off. One can go forward at one's own pace, or retreat as one chooses. "The line" can be pushed forward very cautiously. I do wonder whether asexual couples have explored this to any degree.

Much of what Maufry has said revolves around trust issues. But it is the tapestry woven by this thread's honest dialogue which has given me some aha!s.

If not all sex is cheap (I gotta agree), then it is the cheap stuff which taints the rest. The Judeo-Christian "solution", which fails to consider the validity of all committed relationships (and is otherwise hidebound and atavistic), focuses on heterosexual marriage as the sanctified ground. Well, my parents had a heterosexual marriage that was pretty damn dysfunctional, and surely as much a contributor to my trust issues as the mean kids in school. In sum, two sexual people can go just as SNAFU as a failed sexual/asexual relationship, because it's really about insurmountable incompatibility.

So thanks once again, you compassionate, courageous and wise AVENites for helping me smack my head and say wow!. :D

osito

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
osito
Several things leaped out at me--the first of which is that piggy, selfish sex, or sex without tenderness for the other person--has really, really mucked things up for sexuals and asexuals alike.

A friend of mine from St. Louis, a retired professor of philosophy at Washington University (Richard 'Red' Watson), once wrote a book titled 'Sex And Revolution', which was never published (I think he thought it was too radical). He loaned me the manuscript in--as I recall--1961. I found myself thinking about this last night, and also about a post by AVENguy on a blog by a friend of his--very much on the same topic.

The essence of Red Watson's work is that it would be revolutionary to reclaim sexuality from its commodification in society, unpack the guilt and other BS laid upon direct sexual expression, go back to freely and joyously (and responsibly and caringly) getting it on, take back the power we have collectively given up, untwist all the distortion and damage caused by the combo of guilt and rotten communication, and truly liberate sexuality. Of course he was sure it would bring down our whole political/economic house of cards. I don't recall that he said what happens next...

But I know that the social distortion and exploitation has done me as much damage as individual acts of selfish gluttony. Not saying that these are at the core of my asexuality, but they certainly made it a much tougher row to hoe. :(

osito

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chiaroscuro

Two great posts, Osito. I agree with your friend Red that physical relations between the sexes is so laden with taboos, issues of possession and domination, and, on a primal level, with instinctive status issues (the alpha male collects up all of the healthy females and fights off competing males who want to see their seed propagated...), that, how everyone is supposed to untangle the thousand threads of guilt and instinct and stigma associated with sex, I don't know.

Physical intimacy encompasses a huge range of "ways of relating", from hugs, back-slaps, hand-shakes to roman orgies. It makes you wish you could be tested, early in life, and be given an Physical-Intimacy-Index. I would rank a 7, I think. I could be happy married to a 5-8, maybe. A 4 or 9, given some real work. A 3 or less, no way. A 10? I'd be exhausted.

*sigh*

-Chiaroscuro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
luvmybabies
I'm putting this up here because I'm not getting many responses in Announcements.

Anyway, this is directed toward any sexual partner of an asexual. We are asking any of those that would like to help explain asexuality from a sexual point of view if they would be willing to write something up about it. Such as, if you and your partner are open about the topic of asexualty, what are some of the questions people ask you, being a sexual in a relationship with an asexual, and how do you respond? Also, is there anything you'd like to say to any other sexuals that are in a relationship with an asexual or someone they suspect may be asexual, or anyone that may be in pursuit of an asexual? And finally, if you'd like to write up something about it as to your experience in such a relationship, please feel free!

This information will be put in its own section of the board directed toward other sexuals. If you are interested, please let me know via PM or post, and email me anything you may have at Xendara1@aol.com (please say you are from AVEN in the title so I don't delete you). Thanks!

I watched the show on Montel and a big light bulb went off inside of me. Wow, I think this is the problem with my husband. He is not a sexual person at all. I always thought that he just had low testosterone levels or something. I walk around naked, and he doesn't even notice me at all. He swears that he is nomal and that in a man's 30's that their sex drive drops, but I don't believe that for one second. When I have tried to confront him, he makes it seem like I am calling him gay and he gets upset. I know he isn't a sexual person, and that he will not change, because he doesn't even think there is a problem. Well of course he doesn't see the problem, he's been this way his whole life, so yeah it's normal to him, but to me, a woman who has had many partners in my younger years, I know this is just not normal. He just isn't sexual. However, I AM ! The fact that I have been faithful this long has said a lot for me I guess. He has no interest in sex or sexual things. This is the first relationship that I have had to deal with this. Normally a man cannot get enough sex, but with my husband, he could go the rest of his life and never need it. And when I do get it from him, it's just as if he isn't enjoying himself at all. I know in my heart that he is asexual. But how to I bring this up to him. He also suffers from severe, severe premature ejaculation. In and out 2 times and he's done. It's terrible! Is there any way to save this marriage? I am sexual as I stated, so I NEED sex, he doesn't. WHat can I do about it?

Do I stay with him, because we have kids? Or do I leave and make my own life without him?

Please help!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
osito

luvmybabies said:

I know in my heart that he is asexual. But how to I bring this up to him.

Since you have already brought up the no-sex issue with him, why not just bring him here to AVEN and encourage him to read, post, and explore.

It will likely not change his orientation at all, but it will surely help his understanding of himself and of you. Only good can come of this. Whether it saves your marriage is uncertain, but you'll both see how other people have made such relationships work, or not.

Best of good fortune and discovery to you both. :D

osito

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonstar

To me, it feels like whenever my partner wants sex, he just wants to use me to get off. No matter what he says, and no matter how well I know him and know that that's totally not his position, the fact remains that I will always feel used if someone wants to fuck me (and that's always how it feels - I never feel that a guy wants to make love to me, I always feel like he simply wants to fuck me). And that ends up ruining the relationship that we have, b/c it cheapens it. Like he's saying, "Okay yeah, you're intelligent, funny, creative, etc, but that's just secondary. Let's go, SEX SEX SEX NOW NOW NOW!!!!" To him sex may be creating that emotional bond, but for me it destroys it, and therefore destroys the relationship.

I am new to this forum however I have been reading the comments submitted by maufry above and some others and they really resonated with how I feel overall. This forum has been a godsend and in the past I have always punished myself with thoughts of being abnormal or somehow damaged because I couldn't fit into the sexual box society esteems so highly and labels "healthy". I have also felt in the past that I was doomed relationshipwise because what sexual person is going to tolerate someone being ambivalent about sex? The 99% of society that is sexual makes you feel like there is something wrong with you if you are not okay with "going out to get some" or at least enjoying it in a committed relationship. The issue is not so much me not finding men attractive I have just always felt that sex with men is subjugation on many levels and could never go through with it. I don't know why this is embedded in my psyche but it is. I am in my early thirties and have always seen sex as potentially dangerous on an emotional and physical level, simply put a risk not work taking.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Betrayed

I'd be willing to answer your questions as a sexual married female to an asexual male. I just realized TONIGHT what our problem has been in the past 9 years of marriage, and I am overwhelmed. I did not get married to be in a cold, frigid and flat marriage relationship; I feel like I married my brother. There's a level of intimacy that sex creates between 2 people that is not comparable to talking or sharing moments or cuddling. Sex brings on a vulnerability of self and a total giving of oneself to another in body mind and spirit ( within the marriage relationship). Sex isn't about the orgasm; it's a spiritual and emotional union. It is a higher level of intimacy than holding hands and watching the moon together, even though that' nice too. I am so sad right now, ....What else do you want to know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonstar

Perhaps for you sex brings you to a higher level of intimacy with someone but most people here would disagree with you. I as anti-sexual/voluntary celibate bottom line asexual feel that there is too much wrong with society and there is nearly always a shallow agenda behind sex and the reasons people seek it are not spiritual or high leveled at all.Not to mention I read somewhere that 30 % of men are psychopaths but maybe I'm just cynical.There was no reason for you to have remained in a relationship where your sexual needs were incompatible even if you loved him.Hey I find some gay men loveable but I don't feel betrayed by their lack of interest. What I'm trying to say is don't take it personally. I know it may seem cruel to leave him but it is worse to make that person feel that they are not enough for you on a daily basis. I have been passed on many times when I have told guys no sex until commitment. Needless to say there are not alot of guys worth being committed to and I am happy with my choices even though I am made to feel that I am crazy by my narrow-minded family for not "settling down"

but I digress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chiaroscuro
I find some gay men loveable but I don't feel betrayed by their lack of interest.

If I found out I was married to a gay partner, I'd feel betrayed, on a certain level. No, I wouldn't blame the gay person for being gay, and I'd understand that they didn't "know" when we'd gotten married that they were gay, but I'd feel betrayed anyway. When you go into a permanent relationship like marriage, you assume you're both in it together, with similar expectations. When your partner changes, forcing you to consider divorce, a huge taboo, even in our times, the first reaction is "you're doing this to me." Human nature.

-Chiaroscuro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonstar

Premarital sex and not marrying the first person u sleep with have lost their taboo status so why is divorce still considered so taboo in light of this? I hate hypocrisy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hallucigenia
Premarital sex and not marrying the first person u sleep with have lost their taboo status so why is divorce still considered so taboo in light of this? I hate hypocrisy.

Erm, it's not hypocrisy. Divorce and premarital sex are totally different things. When you get married to someone, you are (at least in theory) making a commitment for your whole life; and while divorce is, in practice, sometimes necessary, it still hurts a lot and looks bad to have to break that commitment.

Premarital sex isn't about breaking a commitment, unless you made one of those vow-of-chastity type things I guess. There are all kinds of reasons a person could do it, most of which have nothing to do with divorce.

(Sorry, I hate it when people misuse the word "hypocrisy".)

Also, judging from the Bible Belt (not to mention the Middle East), premarital sex still is taboo in some places...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ratatosk_lemur
Premarital sex and not marrying the first person u sleep with have lost their taboo status so why is divorce still considered so taboo in light of this? I hate hypocrisy.

It seems, also, that premarital sex being permissible ought to lower the divorce rate, since it's now more acceptable to put off getting married until they're very sure they know what they're doing; thus you no longer should have large numbers of people who essentially felt forced into early marriages because they wanted to have sex, or had had sex and had gotten pregnant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonstar

Sometimes commitments have to be broken and why be judgmental and say it looks bad? No one can have themselves completely figured out hell if we waited til then to marry we'd be dead by then. What I find hypocritical is making a big deal about divorce bc the Bible says it's bad not realizing how ingrained Christian beliefs are in the West when in actuality it's not any worse than anything else Christianity looks down upon like premarital sex.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chiaroscuro
Sometimes commitments have to be broken and why be judgmental and say it looks bad?

I'm not religious, so my problem with divorce isn't based on religious beliefs. It's a straight moral issue. I committed myself to my wife when I married her: "For richer or for poorer, in sickness or in health, 'til death do us part." I took it seriously. I didn't just say that. I thought about it harder than anything in my life. My vision of the future was to go to my grave by her side. So breaking that promise, to me, is a big deal (even if it is for the right reasons). Worse, I have kids. Divorce breaks up a loving family unit. For what? For my own selfish needs? Huge moral issue for me. There is no "good" solution, only a variety of bad ones.

So I'm not opposed to divorce at all on religious or any other grounds. If it has to happen, so be it. But divorce doesn't just look bad, it IS bad. It represents a failure, and it hurts people. For my kids it will change who they are and what they think family is.

I don't feel betrayed by my wife now (it's been a number of years that we've been thinking about separating), but at first, yes, I felt betrayed and trapped and furious.

-Chiaroscuro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonstar

I think if a man and woman have had committed sexual relationships prior to marrying each other it shows that they believe in trying different people out until they come upon the elusive right match and then marriage is proposed. Marriage is just another committed relationship this time involving paperwork and/or a religious ceremony of vow exchange with the belief that this commited relationship will not fail like the others so with that hope you go ahead and create a family. When it becomes apparent through the test of time that two people are not compatible it makes no sense to cite the kids for staying together because they will feel and sense that they are to blame for your misery and it is so not fair to them as it is not their fault.The reality that is an inevitable divorce on the morality spectrum is no worse than other things that hurt people's feelings like realizing your husband or wife had sex with alot of other people before they met you. Yes it hurts but we must accept things and not be in denial to be emotionally healthy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chiaroscuro
the reality that is an inevitable divorce on the morality spectrum is no worse than other things that hurt people's feelings like realizing your husband or wife had sex with alot of other people before they met you.

I guess I disagree. My marriage is a commitment I made and for which I and my wife have sacrificed tremendously. How many guys my wife slept with prior to my meeting her isn't about anything at all, in my opinion. And divorce isn't about "hurting feelings". Yelling at someone hurts their feelings. Divorce is more than that. Somebody wrote that divorce destroys a small culture. In my case, the culture is a good, fair, supportive one. In other cases, the culture is poisonous and unhealthy. In either case, divorce means a failure or a betrayal (admittedly, maybe too strong a word) by one or both people involved.

-Chiaroscuro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonstar

You can argue that divorce is destructive til the cows come home and I am not debating that bc it is to various degrees.So to avoid divorce society condones having alot of pre-marital sex with different partners before settling down so that we feel like we've tried everything out there and are settling for the best when we do settle.But this mentality only perpetuates divorce and the destruction that ensues even more in society because it becomes ingrained in our heads that people are disposible and that when there is trouble we should look for something better. How does a vow change how society has been conditioned to behave and believe? This is why you hear nearly every serial monogamist say oh marriage is just paperwork bc for them that's all they come to see it as.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chiaroscuro

I think we're speaking (writing), past one another, Moonstar.

When your partner changes, forcing you to consider divorce, a huge taboo, even in our times, the first reaction is "you're doing this to me."

then

Premarital sex and not marrying the first person u sleep with have lost their taboo status so why is divorce still considered so taboo in light of this? I hate hypocrisy.

At which point, I elaborated on why I thought divorcing was a big deal. I think the use of the word taboo was wrong, actually... what I meant was that divorce, even though it's practiced so casually nowadays, remains a really big deal. Not a big deal because self-righteous people sneer at it, but a big deal because it represents a fundamental moral failure somewhere along the line. That's what it feels like to me.

So, having said that, and leaving to one side the issue of pre-marital sex, which I don't have any particular views about:

This is why you hear nearly every serial monogamist say oh marriage is just paperwork bc for them that's all they come to see it as.

As a serial monogamist, I emphatically DON'T think marriage is just paperwork, particularly once children enter the picture.

-Chiaroscuro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonstar

Not saying this to be self righteous but divorce is just a drop in the bucket today as far as moral failures go.I think staying with a person you have grown apart with does nothing to honor the commitment of marriage if you are mentally cheating on the person you made your vows to which is inevitable if there is a hole in your marriage. If I had a sexual past specifically the past of a serial monogamist I would be pretty sure that I would be more realistic about marriage vows especially in these times.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tool1989

Well I believe that they can be committed if they are apart BUT people who are committed would try to do everything to bring them back together so they are close again. They shouldn't be togetehr if they don't care about each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chiaroscuro
Not saying this to be self righteous but divorce is just a drop in the bucket today as far as moral failures go.

I know you're not being self-righteous, Moonstar. I appreciate your point... that divorce between two unhappy people is better than living in an unhappy marriage. I agree with you.

My point is that I kiss my son and daughter to sleep each night, feel their arms tight around my neck, answer their questions about life and the world. My wife and I are part of who they are. A part of their world that they trust, implicitly, will be there when they wake up in the morning. For me, betraying that trust is among the most fundamental of moral failures. It isn't a drop in the bucket.

I think staying with a person you have grown apart with does nothing to honor the commitment of marriage if you are mentally cheating on the person you made your vows to which is inevitable if there is a hole in your marriage.

In many cases what you say may be true, but I haven't grown apart from my wife, and I'm not mentally cheating on her. What we have run into is a fundamental barrier that can't be negotiated away.

If I had a sexual past specifically the past of a serial monogamist I would be pretty sure that I would be more realistic about marriage vows especially in these times.

I don't agree that making a vow and crossing your fingers behind your back is being realistic.

-Chiaroscuro

PS - who came up with the term "serial monogamist"? Isn't there anything we can come up with that sounds less like serial killer?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonstar

It is reality though because that is essentially what people do they make the vow and cross their fingers in this day and age. I think if you have kids yes then by your standards it is best to stay for their sake.Many people today still stay married for this reason you would not be the first and to an extent it is the honorable thing to do.I have read that sex is a very small part of a relationship except when it doesn't happen then it becomes a big issue. Sex is such a quagmire and Pandora's box that as outcast as I feel for not wanting to experience it regularly with a partner I think the hurt and pain I save myself from the baggage sex carries from centuries of patriarchy and in this day and age commercialization outweighs the hurt from the sense of alienation I feel from my peers.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WendyO

I think I must be experiencing a similiar situation with Chia. My husband is Asexual, been married 24yrs. Its having the kids love you and cherish you that keeps us sexuals intact. Its not cheating mentally as we are attempting to cope with our life situations. This comes from Chia who obviously has been married numerous years and myself who is at 24yrs. The mature mind doesnt just walk away from a marraige, there are to many details to tend to before that happens. Until then...it is only up to the indivual to make choices concerning their life situation. We are on this site for support.

WendyO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
renaissance redneck
The natural fear is that... your wife is that way because of you and she will find someone else to 'unlock' those feelings and leave you

I'm sorry to hear that you fear this... as an asexual in a relationship with a sexual myself, I assure you that it's simply not the case. The "You just haven't met the right person" reply is the cause of one of the biggest asexual rants out there, so if she is asexual, she won't cheat on you or anything....

Ahh, if (IF) she is truely asexual then that is the case. BUT. IS SHE?

Try to think like a sexual here - you will see that the whole asexual argument CAN seem like an excuse for the asexual spouse just to find someone that CAN interest them. How do you know they aren't simply getting it on with another romantic interest and you are on the way out?

I don't feel this way about my asexual spouse. But a sexual person WANTS sex. We interpret how others would feel in a given situation based upon how that situation would make us feel. So, if we want sex and we don't want it with our spouse - the obvious question for us is "WHO DOES SHE WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH?"

I don't post this here to confuse the issue, rather to help the asexual 'step into' the sexual mindset. As you said "How do you explain having a penis to someone who has never had one?" Not sure. I can say this though - I don't WANT to imagine one stuck in me.

For me, the realization that my wife was asexual was as simple as coming to the conclusion that she didn't want one stuck in her either. As she put it "It's a messy business."

Doen't mean I am not still a horndog - I'm just a happily married, sexually frustrated horndog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
renaissance redneck
Well written Black Wolf. In my case, I also very much believe in the institution of marriage and think that when two people are determined and really love eachother, a way can be found.

In a way I was deeply relieved rather than shocked to know that my wife was asexual. Like Black Wolf I also assumed that "sex is a very fundamental and powerful urge like eating and sleeping" and that absence of this urge was pathological like anorexia or sleeplessness. She was also relieved to know that she was not just one but one among many and was able to vocalize her feelings better. So it worked for both of us and showed us that we were both normal. :D

Definitely we are interacting better and both of us are able to understand from where each of us are coming from. This has relieved a lot of tension. Luckily she is also not phobic and can really feel love for me although not in a sense of sexual attraction and I am fine with it. I am also happy that she is not averse to any physical interaction but only some aspects of it and so we are trying to figure a way that is comfortable to both of us. We feel that with this new discovery there is hope that the love will surpass any of the obstacles in our relationship.

From a sexual point of view, I think asexuals would need to be more sympathetic to our feelings and figure out a way that will allow physical intimacy (without sex) frequently to enable to sexuals feel more loved. For example, these days I get more pleasure from hugging, and feel so much better when we just cuddle and talk. I think this is because I am able to understand that, to her hugging and cuddling is the greatest form of love towards me and that makes me appreciate that even better now. I think that like eating and sleeping, if we know that a certain quantity is sufficient for a good life, even sex can be controlled without loosing the excitement in life. So, I think that it is now a rebalancing act and reconfiguring act to recalibrate our impression of each other.

I am really sorry if this comes across as too boring or academic. Anyway, that is the way we are handling this now and I feel that we are making progress.

I think you wrote that well enough to post again in it's entirety.

I'm still a very sexual man though. The hugging, kissing, cuddling - raises a great hairy beast that wants attention. So, too, does her prancing around the house in scanty apparel (even after 2 kids). I'm sure I will eventually tame that monster - but it won't be without it's trials.

It's been a year. Perhaps after the next?

Right now, things come up far too often for me to forget the desire to use them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
renaissance redneck
Not saying this to be self righteous but divorce is just a drop in the bucket today as far as moral failures go.I think staying with a person you have grown apart with does nothing to honor the commitment of marriage if you are mentally cheating on the person you made your vows to which is inevitable if there is a hole in your marriage. If I had a sexual past specifically the past of a serial monogamist I would be pretty sure that I would be more realistic about marriage vows especially in these times.

OK,

Let's try to be circumspect here. I'll start with a little story about why I changed Church families in hopes it helps make my point without offending you.

My pastor was a nice fellow, widely read. Intelligent. He was a bit of a rebel, had tatoos when he entered the seminary. One day during a discussion he admitted that he now knew that tattoos were against the levitical laws, God's laws. Just like divorce, murder (Note the bible says not to do murder - killing someone that needs killing is different - I really am a redneck, but this was how our discussion went.)

Anyway, this pastor then goes on to say that he plans to get another tattoo after he receives his Masters. There were more instances like this, of course, and I found a better church home. He eventually left after divorce and adultery. He was part of a new 'biker church' and I last saw him smoking a joint - stopped to say hi and he offered me a 'hit'.

Real life there. Better than fiction.

My point is this: we are not perfect. Does that mean we should not strive to be better? What you consider to be a drop in the bucket as far as moral failures go, I consider to be a major shortcoming that will likely doom all future relationships. Of course I base my conclusions on actuarial fact based on statistical analysis of divorce rates in the United States, as well as upon my faith. Things may differ where you are from.

Here, once you divorce - if you marry again you have roughly a 60% greater chance of a second divorce. With a comparable rate of divorce for third marriages, one can see readily the diminishing chances of a successful relationship as you progress from one marriage to another.

Interesting note: widows that remarry - for some reason do not tend to get divorced (Less than 12%). I wonder why that is? (redneck sarcasm - and a rhetorical question - no need to reply)

NOTE:the actual percentages of divorce rates in the US vary by year and study data, but the trend exists as I delineated in all I was able to find.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
renaissance redneck
Premarital sex and not marrying the first person u sleep with have lost their taboo status so why is divorce still considered so taboo in light of this? I hate hypocrisy.

Language is a tool, one that has definitions we agree upon in order to facilitate understanding. As such, we must cling to definitions and insure we all agree upon them in order to be understood.

Marriage is the union of two people who make promises to each other. Premarital sex is about AVOIDING making any promises while pursuing self-gratification.

The difference between premarital sex and divorce is as follows:

Premarital sex: I agree to pleasure myself (and perhaps you) until I decide to stop doing so. Usually this is said in private (if at all). Very few engage in premarital sex in front of all their friends and family.

Marriage: I promise to stick with you whether it is pleasurable or not because I want to be with you forever. I hope it will be great, but even if it's not I will be with you until the end. (The words vary from culture to culture, but that's something like what is said.) These vows are made before friends, family, and God. Why does this sound so permanent? Because marriage is meant to be forever - even unto the kingdom of heaven.

What you failed to realize in your post is that you were in fact being the hypocrite. Stopping premarital sex is a more appropriate analog to divorce. When put in those terms, it is of course not taboo to stop premarital sex. It is also irrefutably certain that divorce is a SIN (defined below to help the atheists out.)

Anyway, that's my take on it. You'll probably disagree.

I am reminded of a little joke you have already heard:

The teacher asked if anyone had ever heard, seen, or touched God. The class said no. So, the teacher concluded God does not exist.

The student then raised his hand and politely asked if anyone had heard, seen or touched the teacher's brain.

Definitions follow:

What is a marriage vow?

Marriage vows

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

In a Christian or Christian-influenced civil ceremony, after the vows have been spoken, the celebrant traditionally instructs the couple to kiss.Marriage vows are promises a couple makes to each other during a wedding ceremony.

Civil ceremonies often allow couple's to choose their own marriage vows, although many civil marriage vows are adapted from the traditional Catholic wedding vow "To have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness or in health, to love and to cherish 'till death do us part."

Vows can also be written by the couple, or poetry, lyrics or vows from a mixture of religious traditions used. However couples marrying in a house of worship or within a religious tradition are often constrained to use the standard vows of that tradition's ceremony.

[edit] Religious wedding vows

Most religions have their own marriage vows and ceremonial traditions. In Judaism, the groom makes the declaration "You are consecrated to me, through this ring, according to the religion of Moses and Israel." before giving the bride a ring. In Hindu wedding tradition, there are a wide variety of ceremonies that depend on the families' region and traditions. The wedding vows are known as Saat Phere and consist of 7 verses spoken by the couple as they take a step for each. When after the seventh step the groom says to the bride "With seven steps we have become friends. Let me reach your friendship. Let me not be severed from your friendship. Let your friendship not be severed from me." they are pronounced husband and wife. In Quaker wedding the bride and groom make "promises" to each other before pronouncing themselves married in front of a Quaker meeting. By making a vow, the husband and wife are also making a covenant between each other.

What is a sin?

Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule, or the state of having committed such a violation. Commonly, the moral code of conduct is decreed by a divine entity (such as God in the Abrahamic religions).

Sin is often used to mean an action that is prohibited or considered wrong; in some religions (notably some sects of Christianity), sin can refer to a state of mind rather than a specific action. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed "sinful".

Common ideas surrounding sin in various religions include:

Punishment for sins, from other people, from God either in life or in afterlife, or from the Universe in general.

The question of whether or not an act must be intentional to be sinful.

The idea that one's conscience should produce guilt for a conscious act of sin.

A scheme for determining the seriousness of the sin.

Repentance from (expressing regret for and determining not to commit) sin, and atonement (repayment) for past deeds.

The possibility of forgiveness of sins, often through communication with a deity or intermediary; in Christianity often referred to as salvation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...