Need help with "the talk."

[Olivier]

@Not-Trapped: yes you are understanding me correctly (I think :))

@Sally: yes, I felt I was probably misrepresenting your position somewhat, and I was more referring to your advice in this thread that simple statements of non-interest may just need to be taken at face value, rather than deconstructed, but I'm too damned hot here today to think straight, or write straight. (I just fixed about 20 typos in this short post, some several times )

[Estrata]

So this thread has gotten a little old, but reading it I started to wonder if you have actually done anything with all this advice yet?

I’m obviously new to this forum and new to the idea of being asexual, but at the same time I’ve been dealing with this for an eight year marriage and trying to work through these issues, so I don’t actually feel so new to it at all.

Anyway, your situation sounds quite similar to mine; only I am in your wife’s place. We had actual sex maybe five times in eight years, then a bunch at the end of last year when we wanted to conceive. Two months after starting, I’m pregnant and we’ve of course stopped again.

Luckily I was the one who found this site. I say “luckily” because if my husband tried to bring it up, he would probably be in the same position you are. So I thought I would mention a few things your wife might be feeling.

First of all, she normally forgets about the issue, unless you bring it up. You have to accept she is not intentionally skirting the issue – she honestly forgets, because it’s about as important to her as invertebrate paleontology or the inner workings of a 1980s Macintosh computer (read, not very).

However, she knows it’s important to you, so whenever you bring it up she suddenly is hit by these intense feelings of guilt. It’s not your fault, she just doesn’t know why she can’t make you happy, so she would much rather avoid the issue. Also, you have probably talked about this many times before with very little result – maybe a two hour discussion, one act of intimacy, than back to normal. So it’s frustrating for her that all these talks never achieve anything (as I’m sure it is for you), and she just doesn’t see the point anymore – so she brushes them off with “I just suck.” She probably doesn’t even realize how guilty she feels, because she would rather totally avoid the issue – even in her own thoughts.

Add to the problem you are obviously a very passive kind of guy. My husband is exactly the same. The reason we didn’t have sex at all for the first four years of marriage is because I also suffered from major anxiety problems, and he was worried he might upset me and cause an attack. Obviously you don’t want to hurt your wife. But at the same time, you have to absolutely accept, deep down, that if you want this to happen, YOU have to take charge of the situation. She will never make advances, probably won’t even help you. Until she gets comfortable with the idea, you may have to accept her just laying their like a rag doll – because the act of active participation is even harder. At the same time, you have to watch her reactions closely for constant mutual consent – otherwise she may end up feeling violated.

But the important thing to remember is, the reason she is brushing you off is probably because she feels so guilty – which means she loves you, and feels bad that she can’t make you happy in this way.

I wouldn’t recommend a therapist, just because I have never found remotely useful. And I certainly would not recommend an e-mail, because if you are naturally passive, an e-mail will probably just annoy her. I guess here is what I would do:

1. Clean the house,do some awful chore you’ve been putting off, or generally do something so you will start off in her good books. Try not to make it obvious you’re doing this for an ulterior motive – I’ve become hyper sensitive to when my husband is going to want something from his actions.
   
2. After spending the day being a useful and awesome husband (you may want to take a weekend day for this, Saturday if she works), then tell her you have something you would like to talk about. Don’t do this right away (maybe wait until after dinner), the cleaning was just to up her happiness and respect for you – not a lead up to the talk.
   
3. Start off by saying you know you’ve had this talk a lot, but this time you really think you’ve found some things that may help. Don’t even mention the word “sex” – she’ll know. Mentioning any sort of word that makes her uncomfortable will just make it harder (I can’t even say most of those words without a little inner revolt).
   
4. Say that you have been reading about other people in the same situation. Feeling you two are not alone will make a huge difference. Then discuss some ideas – you may come up with some, but here are a few I’ve found that helped:
   
   • A schedule that you both put together. First, see if there is a time of day or week she prefers, and work to that time. This is all about what makes her comfortable. Once you have something worked out (start with one day a week), indicate it on a calendar on your wall with a little circle or something else without any implications. The reason for putting it on the wall is that this will jog her memory, and help her get used to the idea.
     
   • Does she do yoga? This may sounds silly, but an awareness of one’s body goes a long way in helping to feel more interested. If she doesn’t, tell her there have been studies (and there have, though not super research based) that say yoga and mindfulness really help one feel more comfortable with their body and the mind-body connection. Even if she has no sexual desire, just that reminder that her body exists and has its own sensations helps to break down some barriers.
     
   • You may want to consider discussing getting the book “For Women Only” or a similar book. Don’t just buy it, but tell her other people in your situation found it useful. Also tell her that some estimates say 10-15% of women have never felt interested in sex/had a libido. This is the high end of the estimate, but it helps to feel you’re not alone. Also, this is more to get her thinking about sex - not to "fix" her.

Hopefully this proactive approach will make her more receptive than the typical “talking it out” method with little follow through. In my experience, talking is great, except if it’s all you do.

The important thing to remember is that this is about making her feel comfortable and you happy. This is not, in any way, about satisfying her, or making her feel awesome. If she is anything like me, though, she will feel happy if she knows you are both doing something proactive about the situation. Her reason for having sex will be to make you happy, which will make her happy. They will not be, and probably never be, about the same things they are for you. But in time, they may become more comfortable for her, and therefore more pleasant (do not read sexually pleasant, just pleasant).

Also, assuming she is like me, she won’t want anything besides the sex. Even the word “petting” grosses me out. I don’t really like kissing if it’s leading up to sex, or any real foreplay. Because the fact is, I’m never going to get in the mood, so I’d rather just get it over with. And, again if she’s like me, don’t try to go down on her. Blech.

And remember this is never going to work if there is something else in the relationship that has made her loose major respect for you. For instance, if you're not working, if you never help around the house, or if you're always passive in every situation. If that is the case, she is not going to see the point in giving you want you want, because she will feel you aren't giving her want she needs. You are going to have to change something about yourself first (in more harsher terms, "man-up"). But that is only if you have have that sort of problem, and if you don't, I recommend having the talk ASAP (why put it off?).

This is a really long post. I hope you aren’t thinking “oh, my wife will never enter the throws of passion, woe is me.” Because I got to be honest – I think a lot of women don’t get much satisfaction from sex, they just don’t mention it and their husbands just don’t notice (or care). It’s never like in the movies.

And one other thing (I know this is a long post). I am going with the idea that your wife will be mildly receptive if she feels you two can actually accomplish something. This is because you say you have had sex before (aside from when you were trying to conceive, which has a goal). If she has accepted the idea before, she may be again. But if you really want this, you have to be the leader, and be proactive about it while still being sensitive (can I ask, who is normally the "leader" in the relationship?).

[Not-You]

This is a placeholder post. Estrada has a wonderful post for me to respond to. But im traveling and don't wanna do this on my Droid. More to come. Thanks for the interest!

I will say this-I already do all the chores!!!

[Sally]

Until she gets comfortable with the idea, you may have to accept her just laying their like a rag doll – because the act of active participation is even harder. At the same time, you have to watch her reactions closely for constant mutual consent – otherwise she may end up feeling violated.

That's a great post, Estrata. The comment above is the only thing I'd somewhat disagree with: some asexuals REALLY don't want to be watched for their reactions to this, that, or whatever. It might be best to tell her that if she doesn't like anything, tell you ahead of time (BEFORE you start). Make that part of the sort-of-contract. If the asexual is feeling guilty, they aren't going to feel comfortable saying anything during the act, and they'll try to control their expression if they think the other person is watching.

Oook - just typing that is icky. Think of doing something you don't want to do and being watched while you do it.

[Reader of Strange Books]

I'm just wondering if your wife isn't engaging in a little passive-aggressive control. The reason I say this is that my parents' marriage has been like this for a long time, by that I mean I don't know what they do or don't do in bed (and it isn't my business anyway), but I do see how they treat each other out of it. They both have a lot of long-standing resentments against each other that neither one will talk about because neither one can admit that they are wrong. They don't fight, they just play power games against each other. My mother was brought up under an extremely domineering father and ended up marrying a man who was almost as bad. But do not ever say that to him because he gets very angry about it. So the survival strategy she learned under her father and later under her husband was to play passive-aggressive avoidant. They even try to drag us children into it. They don't believe in divorce, so that is not an option, but neither one is happy, and neither one wants to change.

Asexuality aside, I can definitely see where someone who was raised to feel she (or he) was powerless could use avoiding sex and avoiding discussion as a weapon. It sounds from some of the comments you have made that your wife may be playing martyr (saying she is a terrible wife and all that). I know all about the martyr game from my mother. It's not the sex so much as she has discovered that she can in some way push your buttons and frustrate you. That can be pretty heady stuff. Unfortunately I don't have any real advice if this is indeed the situation. I once suggested to my father when he was complaining about my mother to me that they ought to get counseling. He looked at me as if I had lost my mind and said that there would be no point to it. And he is right. Years ago they tried to make me the family scapegoat because I had emotional and mental issues (actually Asperger's Syndrome, though nobody knew it then) but when the counselor we were seeing saw through that game and started pointing out their role in contributing to my problems, that was the end of that.

So forgive me if I am reading this situation wrong, but I think the issue goes much deeper than asexuality.

[Estrata]

I'm just wondering if your wife isn't engaging in a little passive-aggressive control.

I think this is the immediate conclusion a lot of people draw when a person (especially a woman) in a relationship is truly turned off by sex, but feels guilty for it. I think coming at the situation from this perspective would do a lot of harm, and from her self-deprecating comments like "I just suck," it seems to me she really feels there is something wrong. I sort of feel for her, so when you say something like it's actually passive-aggressive, I take offense to that.

Sally, that totally makes sense about not wanting to be watched. But at the same time, men who are sensitive enough to want to work through a situation like this will also most likely be sensitive enough to pick up on queues that she is uncomfortable - I think that is what I meant. The only reason I mentioned it is that once I allowed my husband to keep going even though I really wasn't enjoying it at all, because I felt too guilty to say anything. I ended up feeling violated and sending our progress back six months. So it's a hard balance, I guess I mean it's important not to get lost in the passion and try to be hyper-aware (without making it obvious) of how your partner feels.

[Sally]

I'm just wondering if your wife isn't engaging in a little passive-aggressive control. The reason I say this is that my parents' marriage has been like this for a long time, by that I mean I don't know what they do or don't do in bed (and it isn't my business anyway), but I do see how they treat each other out of it. They both have a lot of long-standing resentments against each other that neither one will talk about because neither one can admit that they are wrong. They don't fight, they just play power games against each other. My mother was brought up under an extremely domineering father and ended up marrying a man who was almost as bad. But do not ever say that to him because he gets very angry about it. So the survival strategy she learned under her father and later under her husband was to play passive-aggressive avoidant. They even try to drag us children into it. They don't believe in divorce, so that is not an option, but neither one is happy, and neither one wants to change.

Asexuality aside, I can definitely see where someone who was raised to feel she (or he) was powerless could use avoiding sex and avoiding discussion as a weapon. It sounds from some of the comments you have made that your wife may be playing martyr (saying she is a terrible wife and all that). I know all about the martyr game from my mother. It's not the sex so much as she has discovered that she can in some way push your buttons and frustrate you. That can be pretty heady stuff. Unfortunately I don't have any real advice if this is indeed the situation. I once suggested to my father when he was complaining about my mother to me that they ought to get counseling. He looked at me as if I had lost my mind and said that there would be no point to it. And he is right. Years ago they tried to make me the family scapegoat because I had emotional and mental issues (actually Asperger's Syndrome, though nobody knew it then) but when the counselor we were seeing saw through that game and started pointing out their role in contributing to my problems, that was the end of that.

So forgive me if I am reading this situation wrong, but I think the issue goes much deeper than asexuality.

You may have been an unwilling spectator of your parents' marriage difficulties, but you weren't/aren't part of the marriage. No, you don't know about their sexual relationship, so it's unfair to make assumptions from that lack of knowledge to someone else's situation, which you also don't know. It's difficult for children to see, but sometimes a marriage is pretty much what the two people want it to be, for various reasons that wouldn't make sense to anyone else.

And someone who doesn't want sex isn't being passive-aggressive. Just as someone who doesn't want to get married isn't passive-aggressive, or someone who doesn't want to eat cabbage, etc.

[Not-You]

So this thread has gotten a little old, but reading it I started to wonder if you have actually done anything with all this advice yet?

I’m obviously new to this forum and new to the idea of being asexual, but at the same time I’ve been dealing with this for an eight year marriage and trying to work through these issues, so I don’t actually feel so new to it at all.

Anyway, your situation sounds quite similar to mine; only I am in your wife’s place. We had actual sex maybe five times in eight years, then a bunch at the end of last year when we wanted to conceive. Two months after starting, I’m pregnant and we’ve of course stopped again.

Luckily I was the one who found this site. I say “luckily” because if my husband tried to bring it up, he would probably be in the same position you are. So I thought I would mention a few things your wife might be feeling.

First of all, she normally forgets about the issue, unless you bring it up. You have to accept she is not intentionally skirting the issue – she honestly forgets, because it’s about as important to her as invertebrate paleontology or the inner workings of a 1980s Macintosh computer (read, not very).

However, she knows it’s important to you, so whenever you bring it up she suddenly is hit by these intense feelings of guilt. It’s not your fault, she just doesn’t know why she can’t make you happy, so she would much rather avoid the issue. Also, you have probably talked about this many times before with very little result – maybe a two hour discussion, one act of intimacy, than back to normal. So it’s frustrating for her that all these talks never achieve anything (as I’m sure it is for you), and she just doesn’t see the point anymore – so she brushes them off with “I just suck.” She probably doesn’t even realize how guilty she feels, because she would rather totally avoid the issue – even in her own thoughts.

Add to the problem you are obviously a very passive kind of guy. My husband is exactly the same. The reason we didn’t have sex at all for the first four years of marriage is because I also suffered from major anxiety problems, and he was worried he might upset me and cause an attack. Obviously you don’t want to hurt your wife. But at the same time, you have to absolutely accept, deep down, that if you want this to happen, YOU have to take charge of the situation. She will never make advances, probably won’t even help you. Until she gets comfortable with the idea, you may have to accept her just laying their like a rag doll – because the act of active participation is even harder. At the same time, you have to watch her reactions closely for constant mutual consent – otherwise she may end up feeling violated.

But the important thing to remember is, the reason she is brushing you off is probably because she feels so guilty – which means she loves you, and feels bad that she can’t make you happy in this way.

I wouldn’t recommend a therapist, just because I have never found remotely useful. And I certainly would not recommend an e-mail, because if you are naturally passive, an e-mail will probably just annoy her. I guess here is what I would do:

1. Clean the house,do some awful chore you’ve been putting off, or generally do something so you will start off in her good books. Try not to make it obvious you’re doing this for an ulterior motive – I’ve become hyper sensitive to when my husband is going to want something from his actions.
   
2. After spending the day being a useful and awesome husband (you may want to take a weekend day for this, Saturday if she works), then tell her you have something you would like to talk about. Don’t do this right away (maybe wait until after dinner), the cleaning was just to up her happiness and respect for you – not a lead up to the talk.
   
3. Start off by saying you know you’ve had this talk a lot, but this time you really think you’ve found some things that may help. Don’t even mention the word “sex” – she’ll know. Mentioning any sort of word that makes her uncomfortable will just make it harder (I can’t even say most of those words without a little inner revolt).
   
4. Say that you have been reading about other people in the same situation. Feeling you two are not alone will make a huge difference. Then discuss some ideas – you may come up with some, but here are a few I’ve found that helped:
   
   • A schedule that you both put together. First, see if there is a time of day or week she prefers, and work to that time. This is all about what makes her comfortable. Once you have something worked out (start with one day a week), indicate it on a calendar on your wall with a little circle or something else without any implications. The reason for putting it on the wall is that this will jog her memory, and help her get used to the idea.
     
   • Does she do yoga? This may sounds silly, but an awareness of one’s body goes a long way in helping to feel more interested. If she doesn’t, tell her there have been studies (and there have, though not super research based) that say yoga and mindfulness really help one feel more comfortable with their body and the mind-body connection. Even if she has no sexual desire, just that reminder that her body exists and has its own sensations helps to break down some barriers.
     
   • You may want to consider discussing getting the book “For Women Only” or a similar book. Don’t just buy it, but tell her other people in your situation found it useful. Also tell her that some estimates say 10-15% of women have never felt interested in sex/had a libido. This is the high end of the estimate, but it helps to feel you’re not alone. Also, this is more to get her thinking about sex - not to "fix" her.

Hopefully this proactive approach will make her more receptive than the typical “talking it out” method with little follow through. In my experience, talking is great, except if it’s all you do.

The important thing to remember is that this is about making her feel comfortable and you happy. This is not, in any way, about satisfying her, or making her feel awesome. If she is anything like me, though, she will feel happy if she knows you are both doing something proactive about the situation. Her reason for having sex will be to make you happy, which will make her happy. They will not be, and probably never be, about the same things they are for you. But in time, they may become more comfortable for her, and therefore more pleasant (do not read sexually pleasant, just pleasant).

Also, assuming she is like me, she won’t want anything besides the sex. Even the word “petting” grosses me out. I don’t really like kissing if it’s leading up to sex, or any real foreplay. Because the fact is, I’m never going to get in the mood, so I’d rather just get it over with. And, again if she’s like me, don’t try to go down on her. Blech.

And remember this is never going to work if there is something else in the relationship that has made her loose major respect for you. For instance, if you're not working, if you never help around the house, or if you're always passive in every situation. If that is the case, she is not going to see the point in giving you want you want, because she will feel you aren't giving her want she needs. You are going to have to change something about yourself first (in more harsher terms, "man-up"). But that is only if you have have that sort of problem, and if you don't, I recommend having the talk ASAP (why put it off?).

This is a really long post. I hope you aren’t thinking “oh, my wife will never enter the throws of passion, woe is me.” Because I got to be honest – I think a lot of women don’t get much satisfaction from sex, they just don’t mention it and their husbands just don’t notice (or care). It’s never like in the movies.

And one other thing (I know this is a long post). I am going with the idea that your wife will be mildly receptive if she feels you two can actually accomplish something. This is because you say you have had sex before (aside from when you were trying to conceive, which has a goal). If she has accepted the idea before, she may be again. But if you really want this, you have to be the leader, and be proactive about it while still being sensitive (can I ask, who is normally the "leader" in the relationship?).

Phew! I feel like I have to print this out just to respond to it. That's a good thing, I suppose.

To answer the simple question: no, I never brought anything in this thread up. To be perfectly frank, some posters in this thread frightened me with the notion that I may already have all the answers I am ever going to get and that continuing to seek more information via any avenue is just going to piss my wife off. So that's reason #1 why I've kept my recent silence.

#2 is this: our daughter does not sleep unless she's either in her mother's arms (attached to a breast, of course) or in the car-seat. This is a whole other semi-related problem I'd rather not go into (and yes, it's an actual problem, not just a sex one); however, this arrangement makes the sex/no-sex issue completely moot. Unless I want to commit some atrocities, we are not having sex any time soon--even if my wife was eager for it. My instincts tell me that, if she WERE eager, our lovely daughter would be sleeping on her own months ago. :)

I'm sure you're right about my wife's attitudes towards sex: I've often described it to myself as "sex just simply isn't on her radar," or "it's not on her life's menu." It's just not something that occurs to her. And the only time she DOES think about sex is when it's in the context of me being unhappy. So I'm sure that doesn't help anything.

I agree with your suggestions about how to best approach the subject. I am very passive, and the email is going to get me nowhere because of that. I believe that my passive attitude is actually keeping us together, however. If I were more aggressive or persistent about sex, it seems likely that we would have already had several fights, some perhaps that would have been fatal to the relationship.

I will need to come up with my own ideas about how to make the day special or what have you when I bring the subject back up. As I mentioned already, I already do all of the household chores and I work as a family lawyer about 40-50 hours a week. My wife does not have a job other than raising our daughter right now (I readily admit that this is a bigger, tougher, and more important job than I could ever fathom). I do 85% of all the cooking, too. I'll figure something out.

Like most people (asexuals included, apparently) my desire seems to come in cycles. Some months, I can pretty much just shrug my shoulders and "take matters into my own hands" and not be too down. Other months, it seems like the world hates me and it's hatred is mostly manifesting in my sex-life.

To answer other questions in here--I don't believe my wife is being passive-aggressive by not discussing it with me. She's not very PA. If she were using her sexuality, or lack thereof, as any kind of weapon, I believe she'd be pretty open about it. I think that, if she were actually interested in sex, she'd definitely be a sex-bargainer. ;P (oh goodness, one can only dream)

Estrata, I don't believe I've addressed every thing in your post, but I'm about out of brain-power. What else would you like to discuss?

Edit, after re-reading Estrata's novel: my wife is definitely not a "lie on the bed like a ragdoll" partner. She's an active participant (not as active as I'd like of course). As far as oral sex goes, it was pretty much a requirement of hers when we were actually having sex, and I gladly obliged. Of course, she could have always just been faking everything, I suppose.

Re: respect or other marital problems--> I've asked her countless times what she feels our relationship needs both in and out of a sexual context. The answer is always "nothing" things are great. I never can tell if I should believe her.

We could use more money, I suppose. But, boy howdy, I don't know how to make that happen. And I'd rather not think that the only reason she lost interest in sex with me was because I accumulated a large school loan. Because what would that say about HER?

Double edit: No she does not do yoga. But she does attend a fitness bootcamp twice a week. I don't want to give too much information away for anonymity reasons, but she is a recent reigning Ms. Fitness USA champion. You might think that would boost her body image, but I really think the entire "fitness world" is more damaging than helpful. On the other hand, our sex life problems predate the fitness experience...so who knows. I can tell you that helping her spray-tan (yes, they have to do it--made us want to vomit) was an EXTREMELY frustrating experience for me.

[Not-You]

Quick update:

She brought up our sex life yesterday (I swear to God it wasn't me). So I figured the subject was open to discussion.

I got her to kinda-sorta discuss specific acts--now I know a few things that she'd rather not do. I told her that I was just trying to understand where the line was, even if the line was located at "none, nothing at all thanks!" I told her that I just wanted something other than "I dunno" or "sorry I suck."

And she said that's the best answer she has. Because she doesn't know. That's what she's got for me.

However, there appears to be a line, but it's not located at "none." There are "things" she'd enjoy, but wouldn't elaborate. She also said that she does indeed "want" to have sex again now, but the baby is creating a problem.

So, that's a positive discussion in my book. We're getting there.

[Olivier]

Quick update:

She brought up our sex life yesterday (I swear to God it wasn't me). So I figured the subject was open to discussion.

I got her to kinda-sorta discuss specific acts--now I know a few things that she'd rather not do. I told her that I was just trying to understand where the line was, even if the line was located at "none, nothing at all thanks!" I told her that I just wanted something other than "I dunno" or "sorry I suck."

And she said that's the best answer she has. Because she doesn't know. That's what she's got for me.

However, there appears to be a line, but it's not located at "none." There are "things" she'd enjoy, but wouldn't elaborate. She also said that she does indeed "want" to have sex again now, but the baby is creating a problem.

So, that's a positive discussion in my book. We're getting there.

Well if there are things she wants, but doesn't want to elaborate on what they are, then the logical deal seems to be that when the opportunity arises, she should simply initiate them, no?

(There is, though, an exception to this: An ex of mine I must have asked, or angled, for sex a hundred times when we were making out, but she, without exception, said no. Because what she wanted wasn't sex-as-an-extension-of-making-out, or something negotiated in advance, but sex-as-something-demanded-in-an-assertive-manly-way. Sort of "Me Tarzan. You Jane. We fuck now!". So no amount of talking around the issue could ever get there, because it wouldn't have worked for her if I was only doing that because she told me to, so she never specified what it was that she wanted/needed. I only found all this out when she was explaining why she was dumping me. We're both with different people now I doubt this is where you're at, but somehow your post reminded me of it. More generally, if she wants you to be more dominant, then that's hard to ask for, for the same reasons.)

[mylittlehazmat]

Yay! :lol:

[Not-You]

Well if there are things she wants, but doesn't want to elaborate on what they are, then the logical deal seems to be that when the opportunity arises, she should simply initiate them, no?

Well, that's the position I've been taking (no pun intended) for years now. And that hasn't been...productive. But I can be patient.

I'll update more if there are updates to be updated.

[Cirdan]

(There is, though, an exception to this: An ex of mine I must have asked, or angled, for sex a hundred times when we were making out, but she, without exception, said no. Because what she wanted wasn't sex-as-an-extension-of-making-out, or something negotiated in advance, but sex-as-something-demanded-in-an-assertive-manly-way. Sort of "Me Tarzan. You Jane. We fuck now!". So no amount of talking around the issue could ever get there, because it wouldn't have worked for her if I was only doing that because she told me to, so she never specified what it was that she wanted/needed. I only found all this out when she was explaining why she was dumping me. We're both with different people now I doubt this is where you're at, but somehow your post reminded me of it. More generally, if she wants you to be more dominant, then that's hard to ask for, for the same reasons.)

When I was in relationship with a sexual it was kinda like this. I generally took the initiative (despite her being far more sexual). She once said something

Sometimes I don't want to admit I just want you to f*ck me

which confirmed it. At one point she even said that if I hadn't taken the initiative we would have never been together. Can end up in slightly tricky situations, as you're expected to just do stuff without asking.

[Estrata]

An ex of mine I must have asked, or angled, for sex a hundred times when we were making out, but she, without exception, said no. Because what she wanted wasn't sex-as-an-extension-of-making-out, or something negotiated in advance, but sex-as-something-demanded-in-an-assertive-manly-way. Sort of "Me Tarzan. You Jane. We fuck now!".

Olivier, this is exactly the same thing my husband and I have worked out. My husband, who is also super-passive, always had these really annoying ways of showing he wanted to have sex - we would be cuddling, and I would be perfectly happy, then his lips would get all puffy, and he'd get sort of dreamy-eyed. It really turned me off. I would unconsciously start to draw away, and after awhile I started to avoid "cuddling" at all. If he wanted something from me, being a passive, horny blob and expecting me to respond was not going to work.

Because I think a lot of asexuals like cuddling, but they start to avoid it if they feel it might lead to "something else." So the best thing for us has been to separate the two - my husband just tells me when he wants sex, and I can normally give him what he wants. And trust me, it's worked - hell, it worked last night. :lol: He doesn't try to lure me in with cuddling and then go horny (which actually made me feel like I'd been tricked).

Not being passive in the bedroom is really important for the sexual, even if it feels weird at first. I may be in charge of the finances, and I'm always the navigator in the car, and I make most of the decisions - but the bedroom is one area where an asexual ain't gonna take charge! So I would say, in my experience, waiting for her to initiate is never going to work. You're going to have to "man up" and do it yourself. But then again, she sounds a lot more interested then you first thought - though maybe she's just trying to pacify you. Personally, I would quit waiting for her to do something, go find a babysitter or drop the kid off with your parents, and tell your wife expect sex. Romantic! :lol:

Also, if you're doing most of the housework, and working over 40 hours, scratch the whole thing I said about doing more. Good for you, letting her take care of the baby without having to worry about housework. I wish I could look forward to that - but I guess that's why they invented baby carriers.... ;)

[Not-You]

My husband, who is also super-passive, always had these really annoying ways of showing he wanted to have sex - we would be cuddling, and I would be perfectly happy, then his lips would get all puffy, and he'd get sort of dreamy-eyed. It really turned me off. I would unconsciously start to draw away, and after awhile I started to avoid "cuddling" at all. If he wanted something from me, being a passive, horny blob and expecting me to respond was not going to work.

Because I think a lot of asexuals like cuddling, but they start to avoid it if they feel it might lead to "something else." So the best thing for us has been to separate the two - my husband just tells me when he wants sex, and I can normally give him what he wants. He doesn't try to lure me in with cuddling and then go horny (which actually made me feel like I'd been tricked).

I know you weren't responding to me, but I have a question: is this "agreement" expressed? What I mean is, did you talk about it first? Or has this arrangement just developed?

Not being passive in the bedroom is really important for the sexual, even if it feels weird at first. I may be in charge of the finances, and I'm always the navigator in the car, and I make most of the decisions - but the bedroom is one area where an asexual ain't gonna take charge! ^_^ So I would say, in my experience, waiting for her to initial is never going to work. You're going to have to do it yourself. But then again, she sounds a lot more interested then you first thought - though maybe she's just trying to pacify you. Personally, I would quit waiting for her to do something, go find a babysitter and tell her you expect sex. Romantic! :lol:

Again, I know that you aren't talking to me, but still...

The problem, at least in my situation, is that taking the initiative means I'm "going in blind." In essence, unless I ASK beforehand, I'm afraid that I'm just going to either get rejected (again) in the middle of something or I'm going to force her to do things she doesn't want. It's obvious that nothing is going to happen if I wait for her to initiate. But I'm terrified of alienating her if I just try to jump her bones. Am I making sense?

And, if you've read this thread you know this is my biggest problem, I don't think I can even ask her if I SHOULD just be "taking" her when I want. Because her answer would be "meh, I dunno."

[Olivier]

Or "Absolutely fucking not."

Like Estrata, it works better for us for me to request sex entirely verbally. Touch that turns to cuddles that turns to sex just doesn't work for my wife (unfortunately).

Also, we share initiating pretty evenly. My wife knows that initiating at a time when she wouldn't actually mind sex is better than me asking ten times and getting rejected nine times, and WAY better than what happens if she says "I wouldn't have minded sex last night but you didn't ask."

[Not-You]

Update for those who care: we had sex last night! Ask questions if you have any, I may answer them.

Edit: not questions about the actual sex, of course. But how we got there, if you're interested.

I feel like it was a pretty mutual decision.

[mylittlehazmat]

Yay! Less about the actual sex, but that you feel good about it, that definitely is a good sign. I'm guessing it wasn't spontaneous.

[Not-You]

Yay! Less about the actual sex, but that you feel good about it, that definitely is a good sign. I'm guessing it wasn't spontaneous.

No. We had planed to do ...certain things if the baby cooperated this weekend. She said "it would be good" to do those things. Once we got done with...those things she said "you wanna do...other things?"

Code talk for I finally got laid and I don't feel like I 'made' her do it.

[mylittlehazmat]

That's good. n_n

[theo_tatertot]

(not a stalker, i promise) i'm glad things are working out for you

[Mag]

(not a stalker, i promise) i'm glad things are working out for you

Ditto. I'm also glad things are working out for the both of you. =)

[Not-You]

To this day, I'm still not sure if she's asexual, or simply has a low libido, or if she has some psychological/emotional/hormonal "issues." If you've read this thread, you know she doesn't really talk to me about it. I joined AVEN because, after some lurking, it seems TO ME that she's likely asexual. But I guess I may never "know."

Regardless, it's nice to have some support from a community for people in "sexless" relationships, for whatever reason. The rest of the world tells me she's gay and/or cheating on me and that I'm insane for staying with her.

We've agreed to once per week. We'll see how that goes. She seemed to enjoy herself and, while I was the one to bring up the subject about a week ago, she was the one who initiated last night. So she's either being incredibly selfless and loving or she's just being loving. I am humbled in either case.

Thanks for all the help, folks!

[Olivier]

for you, NT :)

[Sally]

Asexual here votes for "incredibly selfless and loving". :lol:

Nice to have you on AVEN, NT. (And you too, O, of course, especially when I agree with you.)

[Olivier]

(And you too, O, of course, especially when I agree with you.)

When you what?? When did that last happen? ;)

[evanescence]

She has said she knows I'm unhappy...but that's about it.

I'll probably be bashed for saying this, but I think your wife is selfish for shrugging off your unhappiness and evading your questions about her sexuality. If one party in a relationship is unhappy, then the relationship needs to change, even if that change means dissolution.

If I were in a relationship with a sexual guy and was unwilling to have sex with him, I would insist he find sexual satisfaction outside the relationship -- and I really mean insist. I could not live with myself knowing that I was depriving my partner of something he found essential for well-being. If my partner declined my offer I would probably end the relationship.

E.

[evanescence]

<<Also, it's cool that your wife was willing to tell you that pornography is cheating.>>

I, for one, find it extremely selfish for a spouse to deny even a visual outlet to her partner if she's unwilling to have sex with said partner. Does she have NO EMPATHY at all for your frustration and loss?

E.

[Asexy Existentialist]

<<Also, it's cool that your wife was willing to tell you that pornography is cheating.>>

I, for one, find it extremely selfish for a spouse to deny even a visual outlet to her partner if she's unwilling to have sex with said partner. Does she have NO EMPATHY at all for your frustration and loss?

E.

Except some people don't just view it as a 'visual outlet'. To some people, it's not okay for your SO to watch other people having sex, or to see other people naked, or to become so aroused by it that they have no choice but to take off their pants and pleasure themselves furiously. You can also argue that pornography is a disgusting mockery of something that should be special. Or maybe she's against the degredation and objectification of women. If she thinks it's cheating, those are her moral views, and if he's willing to respect that, I can only applaud him vehemently. He has demonstrated nothing but love and affection for her all this time, and I, for one, find it extremely selfish and conniving of you to try to change that in any way.

[Not-You]

<<Also, it's cool that your wife was willing to tell you that pornography is cheating.>>

I, for one, find it extremely selfish for a spouse to deny even a visual outlet to her partner if she's unwilling to have sex with said partner. Does she have NO EMPATHY at all for your frustration and loss?

E.

Except some people don't just view it as a 'visual outlet'. To some people, it's not okay for your SO to watch other people having sex, or to see other people naked, or to become so aroused by it that they have no choice but to take off their pants and pleasure themselves furiously. You can also argue that pornography is a disgusting mockery of something that should be special. Or maybe she's against the degredation and objectification of women. If she thinks it's cheating, those are her moral views, and if he's willing to respect that, I can only applaud him vehemently. He has demonstrated nothing but love and affection for her all this time, and I, for one, find it extremely selfish and conniving of you to try to change that in any way.

At the risk of lowering the opinion of me around here, I did not stop viewing pornography. She can demand that I don't have sex with her, and she can demand that I don't have sex with other people, but she CANNOT demand that I don't have sex with myself.

I'm visual, like many people. If I fantasize w/o some sort of stimulus, I end up fantasizing about my wife. Which is painful, frustrating, depressing, and kinda masochistic. Imagine being a world-class baker but never getting to eat your products.