Need help with "the talk."

[Phoenix9]

You're such a sweet, good man. I really hope your relationship works out.

There's just one little thing that I feel I should mention and feel a little bad for it, but here goes. If you want an honest response, you'll need to talk to her in person. It's much, much easier to lie and be avoidant via an electronic media. It's a psychological thing. There's little risk perceived when a face isn't involved and so people are more likely to flub the truth or bandy words. I know when I don't want to deal with someone, I'll do it over the Internet because I'll feel less guilty about things.

That being said, if she's the shyer type, then an email or a letter is better as she doesn't have to be as self-conscious. She'll have more time to think without feeling pressure. I'd actually go with the letter as it's physical and bears more weight, particularly if you write it in your own hand. It's more personal, more heartfelt. And the physicality of it means that it's there. It's real. It's not pixels on a screen. She can touch it, feel the indent of your script on the page. See how your emotion affects your writing. And it's always good to have physical proof that someone loves you.

[Not-You]

You're such a sweet, good man. I really hope your relationship works out.

There's just one little thing that I feel I should mention and feel a little bad for it, but here goes. If you want an honest response, you'll need to talk to her in person. It's much, much easier to lie and be avoidant via an electronic media. It's a psychological thing. There's little risk perceived when a face isn't involved and so people are more likely to flub the truth or bandy words. I know when I don't want to deal with someone, I'll do it over the Internet because I'll feel less guilty about things.

That being said, if she's the shyer type, then an email or a letter is better as she doesn't have to be as self-conscious. She'll have more time to think without feeling pressure. I'd actually go with the letter as it's physical and bears more weight, particularly if you write it in your own hand. It's more personal, more heartfelt. And the physicality of it means that it's there. It's real. It's not pixels on a screen. She can touch it, feel the indent of your script on the page. See how your emotion affects your writing. And it's always good to have physical proof that someone loves you.

Writing an actual letter is genius! I have written simple love letters on company letterhead and mailed them from work ( ) just for gits n shiggles. Maybe I'll do this that way, too.

I can't decide if my idea of doing this in a written format instead of verbal is because I believe she'll be less pressured or because I'm a chicken. I do like the idea of giving her time to think about it. Because of...whatever reason...when we discuss this issue it pretty much ends up being a one-sided conversation.

[moonfairy3349]

Haven't sent it yet, but how's this?

I want to understand. That's all I really want. I just want to know what you think and how you feel about sex as an idea. I want honest answers. I don't care what the answers are. I really don't. I mean, yes I want to have sex with you (for hundreds of reasons). But it's not going to ruin my life if I don't get to.

(You want to understand, but you don't care about the answers? Suggested edit: "I care about you and want to understand how you feel about sex." I wouldn't even mention the act of sex at this stage.)

So I simply want to know how you feel. But I can't get you to talk about it because all you say is "I don't know." Or "sorry I suck." Those answers don't help me understand what is going on. For the record, you are not a terrible wife because we don't have sex. You don't suck and you aren't broken. I love you and I always will, no matter what. Again, all I WANT is to know what's going on in your head. I need to know you! I'm here for you. I'm never going anywhere. But I am going crazy not being able to understand what you are going through.

(This paragraph is really, really good.)

And maybe you really don't have any idea about yourself. If that's the case...I don't know what to do.

(As someone said earlier, it is her sexuality, not yours. You need to reflect that back to her. Suggested edit: "I can give you as much time as you need to find this for yourself. I can also help you as much as possible if you need it. I just feel at a loss right now because I want to help you, but I do not know how.")

Since I can't get you to talk to me about how YOU feel, I thought I might try this: please ask me questions that you have. Just respond to this email and ask me some questions about me.

(I wouldn't add that sentence - when you write this, it seems to suggest that you already know she won't talk to you freely. But, just a few paragraphs ago, you were requesting that she talk to you. Suggested edit: "I know you sometimes find it hard to talk to me about how you feel, but I want you to know that I love you and will accept you no matter what you tell me. It might be easier for you if you ask me some questions, so please ask me any questions you may have.")

Also, I know that, no matter what, we can't have sex until [baby's name] can sleep by herself for a long while. So we can put that aside for now.

(I wouldn't even add this sentence. Again, you have to decide for yourself what you want to achieve. Is it just to understand her feelings, or is it to establish that you want to know why she won't have sex with you? If you want to mention sex, I wouldn't put a strict timeline on it. Suggested edit: "Just so you know, sex is completely off the table, so please don't worry that I am just talking to you about this topic because I want to have sex with you.")

I also know that this is a better conversation to have in person; however, I believe you will be more comfortable if I'm not there while you are thinking.

So, ask me some questions please.

I love you.

This might just be my interpretation, but to me, it seems like you are sending mixed messages. Part of the letter is addressing a simple desire to know what your wife is thinking. The second part of the letter seems to suggest that you want the answers so that you can understand why she doesn't want sex, and in turn to learn when you might have sex again. I will bold all of the sentences that could be deleted, and I will put comments and edits in parantheses.

Also, maybe you could write this letter, but read it to her in person?

[NoNiMiTy]

You could also ask her, face to face (I don't think it's recommendable for textual conversations), if she rather wants to break up than to talk about it. If that doesn't get her to talk seriously with you about it, what will?

It's maybe not completely fair putting it like that, but 'the soup is never eaten as hot as its served' (we say in dutch). She probably knows that... Also it is the best for you both to get over with, you will have to do it some day.

When you asked that question, just continue with the questions you have, not accepting 'i dont know' or some demotivating answer.

About text vs face2face.. Hmm well I think face to face is less forcing. You should put some more pressure on her as the other way didn't seem to work, but it's easier to use the text-method afterwards talking rather than the other way around - I think. If talking that way doesn't work either, you can explain in the mail that you really need answers, that you tried so much and that it's needed for both of you in the end (she wants the relationship too --right?).

Whatever you decide, good luck with it! (I'm not sure if I'll stick around long enough to see your decision and the result).

[Not-You]

Thanks for the additional input.

I mention our daughter because I can almost guarantee she'll just say "it's all moot because the baby won't leave me alone anyway" and try to avoid the conversation that way. So I'm trying to head her off at the pass.

And I'm not going to read it to her in person. I'd rather just have a conversation in that case.

And I need to mention that I do, indeed, want to have sex. I need to be clear with my motives (I want to have sex; but, if I can't, I would like to know that fact instead of just assuming it, and I'd like to know why).

We've been in a relationship for 10 years. It's obvious that we both WANT the relationship to work. What is less obvious is whether either of us can and will do what it takes, and do so without complaint. It's not like I'd be springing the letter on her--we've talked about "it" for what seems like ever.

[Sally]

And I need to mention that I do, indeed, want to have sex. I need to be clear with my motives (I want to have sex; but, if I can't, I would like to know that fact instead of just assuming it, and I'd like to know why).

You may not like this reaction, but she isn't stopping you from having sex. If she actually does tell you why you can't have sex with her, she may give you the answer that she simply doesn't want sex, and that's why. Again, I ask: are you willing to hear that answer, should she give it, and understand what it means? It will mean that you want to have sex, and she doesn't, and that neither of you are deliberately hurting the other. You simply don't feel the same way about sex.

[Not-You]

And I need to mention that I do, indeed, want to have sex. I need to be clear with my motives (I want to have sex; but, if I can't, I would like to know that fact instead of just assuming it, and I'd like to know why).

You may not like this reaction, but she isn't stopping you from having sex. If she actually does tell you why you can't have sex with her, she may give you the answer that she simply doesn't want sex, and that's why. Again, I ask: are you willing to hear that answer, should she give it, and understand what it means? It will mean that you want to have sex, and she doesn't, and that neither of you are deliberately hurting the other. You simply don't feel the same way about sex.

Sure. It's been this way for a great long while. I've come to terms with the notion that I may simply never have sex again years ago. But I want to KNOW it to be the truth. I can't live my life wondering what's waiting for me at home every night. Because, despite the passage of time, I'm still quite adept at convincing myself tonight will be different. That next month will be different. That, if I can just be better in some way, any way, next year will be different.

All I need is to hear her say "no, it won't ever be different." Then maybe I can get some peace in this corner of my life.

[never odd or even]

i must say, your wife is rather illogical, and unreasonable in her refusal to communicate with you on such an issue and refusing to deal with the matter in hand by manipulating you with self depreciating comments designed to guilt trip you into silence... i'm a terrible wife is actually irrelevant to your conversation, and whether she is or not is a different matter. dont allow yourself to be manipulated by her; wife she may be, but if she doesnt respect you enough to actually talk to you about you, it indicates that a) she's very insecure in herself and b) that she doesnt trust herslf or you enough to talk. insecurity tends to banish articulacy and clarity of thought out of the window, and i would say that she needs guidance and help more than leaving her to run a ship thats going nowhere.

harsh words, maybe. but this is my analysis and understanding of her and you, wrong though i may be.

i dunno if this helps or not

[Not-You]

You may not like this reaction, but she isn't stopping you from having sex.

I thought about this for a while before falling asleep and I have to disagree with you. When I post on AVEN about wanting to have sex, I am implicitly saying "sex with my wife."

Because, in my universe, there is no sex without my wife. There is masturbation, and there is sex with my wife. I don't have a third option. I would need genuine and persistent encouragement from my wife to seek gratification outside of my marriage. And even then I don't think I could hack it. It's not likely that she would suggest such a thing, any way: she demands monogamy (as is her right). She flat out told me that looking at pornography is cheating, so it only follows that she feels cheating is cheating.

I won't cheat. And sex is not SO important that I would divorce her from a lack of it. So, yes, she is stopping me from having sex.

I understand that it is really MY OWN morals that are actually keeping me from having sex (with anybody), and not my wife's refusal.

So the problem, in this case, has two causes: I can't have sex with my wife because she doesn't want to. And I can't have sex with anybody else because I don't want to.

So there it is. But I still need to hear her say it, or else I'm just going to keep torturing myself until I'm too old to remember what sex is. (Or you may see me here years later behaving like the poor misguided "turn me asexual" do-dos)

[Not-You]

i must say, your wife is rather illogical, and unreasonable in her refusal to communicate with you on such an issue and refusing to deal with the matter in hand by manipulating you with self depreciating comments designed to guilt trip you into silence... i'm a terrible wife is actually irrelevant to your conversation, and whether she is or not is a different matter. dont allow yourself to be manipulated by her; wife she may be, but if she doesnt respect you enough to actually talk to you about you, it indicates that a) she's very insecure in herself and b) that she doesnt trust herslf or you enough to talk. insecurity tends to banish articulacy and clarity of thought out of the window, and i would say that she needs guidance and help more than leaving her to run a ship thats going nowhere.

harsh words, maybe. but this is my analysis and understanding of her and you, wrong though i may be.

i dunno if this helps or not

Thanks for the advice.

[Sally]

I'm just going to strap her to a chair and whip some answers out of her. :lol:

That's not funny, even with an lol attached.

[Not-You]

It seems to be the direction SOME posters here are going. Some suggest it may be impossible for me to get answers from her. Or at least impossible to get them while being gentle. It was a joke.

[Sally]

I'm just going to strap her to a chair and whip some answers out of her. :lol:

That's not funny, even with an lol attached.

If you knew me personally it would be. I'd never harm a hair on her head.

It doesn't matter who you are personally.

[Not-You]

Fine. But you're going to have to edit your posts.

[Sally]

Fine. But you're going to have to edit your posts.

Not Trapped, maybe you need to really think about your attitude toward your wife. If you're using this thread to get support for trying to get information from her, you've got that support. But what you said is not funny, and no one gave you support for even joking about beating her.

She may be insecure. She may be stubborn. She may be cheating you out of what you need in the marriage. She may be all sorts of things. But if you can't get what you want from her, then leave. Unless you simply want to annoy the hell out of her in response to her not giving you what you want, which now appears to be ANSWERS ANSWERS ANSWERS.

It's entirely possible she doesn't have answers. So again, I'm asking: what do you do then? Keep at her for the next 5 years still demanding answers?

[Asexy Existentialist]

She may be insecure. She may be stubborn. She may be cheating you out of what you need in the marriage. She may be all sorts of things. But if you can't get what you want from her, then leave. Unless you simply want to annoy the hell out of her in response to her not giving you what you want, which now appears to be ANSWERS ANSWERS ANSWERS.

It's entirely possible she doesn't have answers. So again, I'm asking: what do you do then? Keep at her for the next 5 years still demanding answers?

This. I think that, if she doesn't answer this attempt at communication, you should drop it, once and for all. Either leave her, or accept that you're never having sex again. And then if you do have sex, hey! It's a pleasant surprise! But you don't have to go home wondering if tonight will be that super special magical unicorn night you get sex. You want sex, and you want answers. But you might have to accept you're just not going to get any.

Also, it's cool that your wife was willing to tell you that pornography is cheating. A lot of women won't, and it makes me horribly sad, and also worried for my possibilities for a romantic relationship.

[Not-You]

Not Trapped, maybe you need to really think about your attitude toward your wife. If you're using this thread to get support for trying to get information from her, you've got that support. But what you said is not funny, and no one gave you support for even joking about beating her.

It was a joke for goodness sakes. I took it down because I thought you were offended by it individually. I didn't ask for any "support" from anybody concerning it. It was in bad taste and I apologize for it and now I've done my part to remove it.

She may be insecure. She may be stubborn. She may be cheating you out of what you need in the marriage. She may be all sorts of things. But if you can't get what you want from her, then leave. Unless you simply want to annoy the hell out of her in response to her not giving you what you want, which now appears to be ANSWERS ANSWERS ANSWERS.

It's entirely possible she doesn't have answers. So again, I'm asking: what do you do then? Keep at her for the next 5 years still demanding answers?

I know it's tough because I make it sound like I'm miserable and that all I do is hound her about sex. But I bring it up less than once a month and the "conversations" last less than 2 minutes. I'm hardly "demanding" answers and I don't intend to. If all she is ever going to say to any question I have about sex is "I don't know," then I have no idea what I will do. I suppose there will come a day when I just drop it.

And she and I have got a lot more to worry about than sex if I am "annoying" her by simply trying to understand her. I hope that's not the case.

[Alan Degas]

I do think that you are entitled to answers. Well, maybe saying that you are entitled to answers is not the right way to put it. Because, like Sally said, she might not have any answers. But still, as far as I'm concerned, she does owe you the respect and decency to actually talk about this. Period. She must know that she is ignoring the elephant in the room and she has got to know that this can't go on forever... So for her own sake, as well as yours, she needs to "grow a pair" and sit down and talk about this. If she doesn't have answers, then she should at least tell you that!

And if she quite honestly doesn't see that it's a big deal, she does still need to listen and understand (or at least try to) your point of view.

Personally, I would demand communication. Demanding something is kinda harsh, sure. And that might very well mean that she is not willing to meet that demand...and then what do you do?

I'm only talking for myself here though and personally; I wouldn't want to stay in a relationship like that anyway, so I'd rather make that demand and risk being denied it, than to stay in a relationship where we couldn't talk about important things...

I know not everything can be "fixed" by talking about it... but in my mind there should at least be a willingness to talk, you know. So both parties know where they stand and aren't left in dark and guessing what the other person's feelings are all the time.

[phantomwriter]

I think Asexy Existentialist has a point. While it's unfair of your wife to blow this topic of discussion off when it's clearly important to you, you could save yourself a lot of grief by just telling yourself that she'll never want sex. Don't even wait to hear her say it, just tell yourself so. That way, you stop setting yourself-up for disappointment, and if one night things actually do change, it's a pleasant surprise. (If I were in your wife's position, I'd tell my husband not to expect sex EVER, even if I felt that I might be willing to have sex at some point, just so that I don't get his hopes up.)

If you're truly adament about understanding her and establishing good communication, which it seems you are, I would suggest dropping it for more than a month. Perhaps let her know in advance. Remind her how important it is for you to understand her sexuality, that you'll give her plenty of time to think about it, and that you'll drop it for several months (I know that'll be difficult, but sometimes, people just need some space from things they find difficult to talk about). Ask her if she'd be willing to genuinely talk about it if given enough space and time. It may be that she's actually very insecure about the subject and that's why she's avoiding it. In the mean time, just keep being your sweet, supportive self so that she SEES and FEELS for herself how trustworthy and caring you are. Like you said, I don't know her, but I think for me, if I'm given enough time to contemplate things on my own terms and if I feel like the other person is someone I'm close to and is trustworthy and respectful, I'd be willing to talk about almost anything, even the most difficult things for me to personally talk about. But I can see how the once-a-month, two minute reminder could have the opposite effects.

[Not-You]

I do think that you are entitled to answers. Well, maybe saying that you are entitled to answers is not the right way to put it. Because, like Sally said, she might not have any answers. But still, as far as I'm concerned, she does owe you the respect and decency to actually talk about this. Period. She must know that she is ignoring the elephant in the room and she has got to know that this can't go on forever... So for her own sake, as well as yours, she needs to "grow a pair" and sit down and talk about this. If she doesn't have answers, then she should at least tell you that!

And if she quite honestly doesn't see that it's a big deal, she does still need to listen and understand (or at least try to) your point of view.

That's how I feel, too. That's how committed relationships work. You can't just shut the other person out.

Personally, I would demand communication. Demanding something is kinda harsh, sure. And that might very well mean that she is not willing to meet that demand...and then what do you do?

I'm only talking for myself here though and personally; I wouldn't want to stay in a relationship like that anyway, so I'd rather make that demand and risk being denied it, than to stay in a relationship where we couldn't talk about important things...

I know not everything can be "fixed" by talking about it... but in my mind there should at least be a willingness to talk, you know. So both parties know where they stand and aren't left in dark and guessing what the other person's feelings are all the time.

Exactly. It's quite possible she DOES NOT KNOW why. But she needs to tell me that. "I dunno" is not the same thing as "I cannot explain it." "I dunno" is brushing me off.

But, according to some here, demanding (or otherwise repeatedly making attempts at) communication is abusive. So I guess I'm still at a loss.

However, I wanted to thank everybody who has tried to help. I honestly appreciate all of the comments.

[PiF]

Trapped

I wonder if you have had a chance to internet chat with Oliver who is also a sexual man with an asexual wife?

Oliver is quite articulate and in a very grounded way and may perhaps be able to offer some help?

[Not-You]

Trapped

I wonder if you have had a chance to internet chat with Oliver who is also a sexual man with an asexual wife?

Oliver is quite articulate and in a very grounded way and may perhaps be able to offer some help?

Oh yes. He and I have had a chat a few times. Not about the actual communication issue in particular, but just the sexual/asexual relationship concept. I hope that we can have something like what he and his wife have some day. I didn't want to burden the poor guy with a PM, however. Maybe he'll pop in this thread some day.

[PiF]

Another option rather than pm's and on the hoof is to go into chat and then start a private convo..it's a bit more like msn without the need for private address to be shared

[Not-You]

Another option rather than pm's and on the hoof is to go into chat and then start a private convo..it's a bit more like msn without the need for private address to be shared

I've never seen him in there. I'll tool around someday soon. Thanks for the tip!

[Olivier]

Oh hai!

Don't bother waiting for me in chat, you might be a while ;)

I've nearly commented on this thread a whole bunch of times, in fact I nearly did again this morning, but most of what I want to say has been said by others.

It's an issue that's close to home for me, as a few years ago I was in the same place - we needed to talk but my wife just wouldn't, so I pushed her, which pissed her off to the point where she'd say something hurtful, I'd either get upset or return the narkiness, and it would all end in bitter tears hours later. And then this reinforced things: why talk about it when all it does is lead to bitterness and nastiness? It was self-fulfilling, and self-perpetuating, and even identifying it as such didn't stop it happening, because we were both (overly) defensive of our positions.

We broke the ice a few ways:

- by patience, and letting time pass

- by having a huge fight where for better or worse, a whole lot of communication took place

- by moving discussions of sex out of bed, and into places where sex wasn't immediately on the table, like driving into town (without kids, of course, which made that relatively rare)

- by writing emails much like the letter you've drafted, although a little later in the process, so they were more about concrete suggestions for things that might get our sex life back on track, rather than just vague agreements that we should so something, sometime.

As for the ethics of demanding a response, I'm on the fence on that. I think it's fair to ask for a substantive response, and I think it's fair to say it's important to you to get one, if that's true (as in your case), and not just a power play. I also think that it's fair to let your partner know how a non-response or evasion would make you feel, and how you think you would respond, and I think what you've written is fair in this regard.

As it happened, in the process of working out where I stood on all this I came to the conclusion that I would stay in my marriage even with no sex ever again, albeit with a sadness that that is how things had to be, but happy with all the good things. I told my wife this, and I lived up to it for a few months with only the occasional fall off the wagon, and it really lifted the pressure on her and we got back to a place where we could discuss it more openly, and indeed to a place where we could, and did, have sex.

But your mileage may vary. We really needed to go through the rebuilding trust phase for quite a while because of many things I'd done, and many things we'd both said. And on the other hand, once the trust issues had been sorted it was easy to slip back into frank discussions of sex because my wife is in no way prudish about these things, and indeed talking frankly about sex is something she does regularly as part of her job. Not many people could probably say the same of their asexual partners :P

I still don't know if I've added much of value, but there it is... What's that Twain quotation? "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I've written a long one instead."

[Not-You]

Oh hai!

Don't bother waiting for me in chat, you might be a while ;)

I've nearly commented on this thread a whole bunch of times, in fact I nearly did again this morning, but most of what I want to say has been said by others.

It's an issue that's close to home for me, as a few years ago I was in the same place - we needed to talk but my wife just wouldn't, so I pushed her, which pissed her off to the point where she'd say something hurtful, I'd either get upset or return the narkiness, and it would all end in bitter tears hours later. And then this reinforced things: why talk about it when all it does is lead to bitterness and nastiness? It was self-fulfilling, and self-perpetuating, and even identifying it as such didn't stop it happening, because we were both (overly) defensive of our positions.

We broke the ice a few ways:

- by patience, and letting time pass

- by having a huge fight where for better or worse, a whole lot of communication took place

- by moving discussions of sex out of bed, and into places where sex wasn't immediately on the table, like driving into town (without kids, of course, which made that relatively rare)

- by writing emails much like the letter you've drafted, although a little later in the process, so they were more about concrete suggestions for things that might get our sex life back on track, rather than just vague agreements that we should so something, sometime.

As for the ethics of demanding a response, I'm on the fence on that. I think it's fair to ask for a substantive response, and I think it's fair to say it's important to you to get one, if that's true (as in your case), and not just a power play. I also think that it's fair to let your partner know how a non-response or evasion would make you feel, and how you think you would respond, and I think what you've written is fair in this regard.

As it happened, in the process of working out where I stood on all this I came to the conclusion that I would stay in my marriage even with no sex ever again, albeit with a sadness that that is how things had to be, but happy with all the good things. I told my wife this, and I lived up to it for a few months with only the occasional fall off the wagon, and it really lifted the pressure on her and we got back to a place where we could discuss it more openly, and indeed to a place where we could, and did, have sex.

But your mileage may vary. We really needed to go through the rebuilding trust phase for quite a while because of many things I'd done, and many things we'd both said. And on the other hand, once the trust issues had been sorted it was easy to slip back into frank discussions of sex because my wife is in no way prudish about these things, and indeed talking frankly about sex is something she does regularly as part of her job. Not many people could probably say the same of their asexual partners :P

I still don't know if I've added much of value, but there it is... What's that Twain quotation? "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I've written a long one instead."

:D

Exceedingly valuable. Thank you. I've needed something from your perspective/experience. Simply to counter-balance my growing fear that she's going to remain an everlasting thoughts-and-feelings-vault. Which, I understand, may very well be the case.

I've decided to just sit on it for as long as I can (probably not more than a couple of months) before I try to re-open some lines of communication concerning this area. I'll update this thread if there are any developments.

Edit:

I came to the conclusion that I would stay in my marriage even with no sex ever again, albeit with a sadness that that is how things had to be, but happy with all the good things. I told my wife this, and I lived up to it for a few months with only the occasional fall off the wagon, and it really lifted the pressure on her and we got back to a place where we could discuss it more openly, and indeed to a place where we could, and did, have sex.

I know I'm repeating myself, but I did this same thing. And she refused to accept my conclusion. Which actually ADDS to the frustration. Oh well. Still sticking with my new "plan."

[Phoenix9]

I really don't have any new advice to give you, but I just wanted to wish you luck. There aren't many men that I know who'd stay in your situation. I admire your patience and sense of morals. And I think that your situation will work out well for the two of you sometime down the line because of that.

[Olivier]

I came to the conclusion that I would stay in my marriage even with no sex ever again, albeit with a sadness that that is how things had to be, but happy with all the good things. I told my wife this, and I lived up to it for a few months with only the occasional fall off the wagon, and it really lifted the pressure on her and we got back to a place where we could discuss it more openly, and indeed to a place where we could, and did, have sex.

I know I'm repeating myself, but I did this same thing. And she refused to accept my conclusion. Which actually ADDS to the frustration. Oh well. Still sticking with my new "plan."

Well, my wife didn't believe me either. That's where the living up to it came in. I managed that because I had sat down and decided that the good things in my marriage (and there are so many ) meant that I'd rather stay than go. It's not much use saying that you're staying because the things that make you happy outweigh the thing that makes you miserable, and then being miserable all the time - there's no credibility there.

I don't mean to trivialise things - I know how hard it is. I just figured that if I really wanted things to work, and my wife was disengaged from the problem, then if someone was going to go the extra mile to get things back on track then it was going to have to be me. I couldn't have done it by myself, but seeing me putting in the effort made it easier for her to match that effort. I'm still uncertain what would have happened if she hadn't though... I guess I would just have kept trying harder until I snapped and couldn't do it anymore. I felt I was close a few times, and I know my wife felt that way too.

Also, I'd heed Sally's advice. Her perspective of it seeming from the asexual side something like: "I've told you more than once, so why are we still discussing this?" was pretty close to my wife's position, too. She didn't feel she was being evasive, just that she'd said everything she had to say, and that four more hours of conversation wasn't going to add anything useful, possibly at some cost to both our happiness. I think she was as frustrated as I was, just in a different way. Perhaps you could ask if your wife feels frustrated by the impasse you are at, too - that could be a starting point for some common ground, or at least some conversation.

[Not-You]

I came to the conclusion that I would stay in my marriage even with no sex ever again, albeit with a sadness that that is how things had to be, but happy with all the good things. I told my wife this, and I lived up to it for a few months with only the occasional fall off the wagon, and it really lifted the pressure on her and we got back to a place where we could discuss it more openly, and indeed to a place where we could, and did, have sex.

I know I'm repeating myself, but I did this same thing. And she refused to accept my conclusion. Which actually ADDS to the frustration. Oh well. Still sticking with my new "plan."

Well, my wife didn't believe me either. That's where the living up to it came in. I managed that because I had sat down and decided that the good things in my marriage (and there are so many ) meant that I'd rather stay than go. It's not much use saying that you're staying because the things that make you happy outweigh the thing that makes you miserable, and then being miserable all the time - there's no credibility there.

It's so bizarre and I don't know how to react to it. "I refuse to accept your refusal to accept my conclusion?" And then suddenly we're employing reversed roles? (I say I don't want sex, and she says the opposite?) I guess perhaps the only way to handle this particular problem is to, yes, reject her rejection (my brain hurts) without actually verbalizing it. Essentially ignore what she told me, and behave according to my stipulation that I can go without sex indefinitely. Prove to her that I CAN do it, even if she has told me I won't have to (bless her heart). Am I understanding you correctly?

Also, I'd heed Sally's advice. Her perspective of it seeming from the asexual side something like: "I've told you more than once, so why are we still discussing this?" was pretty close to my wife's position, too. She didn't feel she was being evasive, just that she'd said everything she had to say, and that four more hours of conversation wasn't going to add anything useful, possibly at some cost to both our happiness. I think she was as frustrated as I was, just in a different way. Perhaps you could ask if your wife feels frustrated by the impasse you are at, too - that could be a starting point for some common ground, or at least some conversation.

And I suppose this is just another element of not truly being able to understand each other, because of our different orientations. If she has already told me everything she possibly can, and I feel like she's told me nothing, I will simply have to live happily while being twice denied. She's worth it.

[Sally]

Also, I'd heed Sally's advice. Her perspective of it seeming from the asexual side something like: "I've told you more than once, so why are we still discussing this?" was pretty close to my wife's position, too. She didn't feel she was being evasive, just that she'd said everything she had to say, and that four more hours of conversation wasn't going to add anything useful, possibly at some cost to both our happiness. I think she was as frustrated as I was, just in a different way. Perhaps you could ask if your wife feels frustrated by the impasse you are at, too - that could be a starting point for some common ground, or at least some conversation.

And I suppose this is just another element of not truly being able to understand each other, because of our different orientations. If she has already told me everything she possibly can, I feel like she's told me nothing, I will simply have to live happily while being twice denied. She's worth it.

Actually, not to argue with Olivier (we never do that! :lol: ), but I spent many hours trying to explain to my former partner about how I felt, once I learned that asexuality existed. So it isn't (necessarily) a difference in orientations; it's more a difference in personalities. However, once I realized that my partner needed to think what he thought, and feel how he felt, I didn't trouble him anymore, because I was simply bothering him. It just doesn't get you anywhere.