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Not-You

Need help with "the talk."

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mylittlehazmat

I suppose it was a dream to think things could be so simple. :rolleyes: Is there something you can do to show her you enjoy her? Like, take a day off and do a date or whatever it is you romantic types do ... :P She might be more willing to talk with you if you precede it with awesomeness.

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Not-You

I suppose it was a dream to think things could be so simple. :rolleyes: Is there something you can do to show her you enjoy her? Like, take a day off and do a date or whatever it is you romantic types do ... :P She might be more willing to talk with you if you precede it with awesomeness.

Well there's a whole other wrench that I haven't thrown into the gears yet:

We have an absolutely wonderful 1 year old daughter [mutually agreed upon, of course (also the last time we made love)].

We're terrible parents and have her sleep in our bed...and for whatever reason, the poor thing can't/won't sleep without her mom holding and/or nursing her during the day. So there isn't any free time available for "us" anyway. So all of my planning is well ahead of the game--I'm waiting for the day when we have some alone time. However, I have my suspicions that my wife is using our daughter to keep me at bay, every now and then.

And before anybody asks, the baby IS NOT the reason we aren't having sex. At least not the only reason. We didn't make love for at least a year before trying to conceive. So, although the whole baby/baby-body mess certainly doesn't help, our daughter is not the reason.

A date, as you suggest, could possibly be helpful...if we were comfortable using a baby-sitter. :ph34r:

We went to see Part I of the Deathly Hallows, and that's the only time we've been away from the munchkin.

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mylittlehazmat

Do you have any relatives who you would feel comfortable/trust enough to look after your daughter?

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Not-You

Do you have any relatives who you would feel comfortable/trust enough to look after your daughter?

Not nearby. My in-laws watched her when we went to the movie. But that was while we were visiting them in another city. We're just paranoid about sitters. First-time parents, I suppose.

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mylittlehazmat

Hmuurrrr. Well, you have time to shop around for a trustworthy sitter. :)

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Samael

If she turns out to be asexual, chances are the only sex you will have will be out of duty or pity. Still, it is possible for asexuals to enjoy sex even if they wouldn't feel sexually attracted to people. In the case she is asexual, you might face a new problem: how to train her to like sex, if such a thing would even be possible with her.

"how to train her to like sex" - sorry, I know you're trying to help but that terrified me on Mrs NT's behalf. You probably didn't mean it quite that way.

Yeah it sounds terrible as hell, but I'm trying to see this from the husband's perspective. He's the one who seems to be having a problem here after all.

The truth is rarely pretty anyway. The guy likes sex because he's sexual, the woman won't and at the moment we can't know why. If the wife ends up being asexual, the only way the sexual man could have sex from her in a way that would be satisfying to him is if she liked the act (or that's how I've understood it). Such would be the reality then, but I have absolutely no idea how you'd go around training someone to like it. Perhaps it'd be impossible, perhaps not.

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mylittlehazmat

The point of it is that being asexual does not necessitate a repulsion to sex, nor does a repulsion to sex necessitate asexuality. Some asexuals quite like sex, because it's fun or feels good or whatever ... so I don't think it would be so bad to actually "train" someone to like sex, and by this, show them that it isn't the nasty bad things they think it to be. At least in my case, I hate sex because I see it as an opposite to an act of love - but if I were shown it was an act of love, or I learned to think of it that way, I wouldn't be objectionable to sex in a relationship.

It depends on her reasons, I suppose. Some people just think it's disgusting and unhygienic, so it's hard to combat that one.

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Arborist Wolf

I know you've probably heard everything I'm gonna say already. xD There're a lot of posts in this topic, and they all seem to be pointing you in the right direction: taking the conversation into your own hands. She gets out of talking about things by being insecure. If every time you try to get to her core, she deflects with insecurities, that means she has a serious problem. Maybe she herself can't get past her insecurities enough to answer your questions. If you try and confront her again, and it still fails, maybe you should strongly reccomend a that she see a therapist again so that she can get past her problems in order to address yours. If you make it so she knows this is a serious thing...maybe some good will come out of it.

Maybe start the topic out with less about why you're unhappy, and ask her why she is. Why she thinks she's a terrible wife. If she says 'Because of all the things you've pointed out,' then retort with 'Then why can't you give me an explanation for those things?' Just dig till you get the root of the problem. Nothing will get better for either of you until you unroot the weed, rather than just cut off the flower.

Hope you can do it, and let us know how it goes!

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Not-You

I hope to get back to the point of being able to discuss details with her. In the past, when we've achieved that level of discussion, she has admitted that sex feels pretty great up until impending orgasm and then it is suddenly "wrong." So I spent years working with that little piece of information alone to "fix" her. Thinking that her orgasm aversion (my term) has caused her to completely turn off her sexual self. But, when taken with other information I have about her, it seems she might actually be a mildly-repulsed asexual (as opposed to somebody who has been abused, etc, ad infinitum). Again, only she knows.

But, if I could ever get back to specifics with her, it seems there might be some room for compromise here(if she was telling me the truth about her orgasm aversion).

Edited to include response to Bat:

Thanks for those words. I'm sure there is more to her than just(my suspicions of)asexuality. We're all onions.

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Sally

I know you've probably heard everything I'm gonna say already. xD There're a lot of posts in this topic, and they all seem to be pointing you in the right direction: taking the conversation into your own hands. She gets out of talking about things by being insecure. If every time you try to get to her core, she deflects with insecurities, that means she has a serious problem. Maybe she herself can't get past her insecurities enough to answer your questions. If you try and confront her again, and it still fails, maybe you should strongly reccomend a that she see a therapist again so that she can get past her problems in order to address yours. If you make it so she knows this is a serious thing...maybe some good will come out of it.

Maybe start the topic out with less about why you're unhappy, and ask her why she is. Why she thinks she's a terrible wife. If she says 'Because of all the things you've pointed out,' then retort with 'Then why can't you give me an explanation for those things?' Just dig till you get the root of the problem. Nothing will get better for either of you until you unroot the weed, rather than just cut off the flower.

Hope you can do it, and let us know how it goes!

Bat, not all of us can give explanations of everything about us -- we may all be onions but that doesn't mean we can, or should be willing to try to, pull all the layers off to see what's the interior layer, or dig to the root, or whatever analogy anyone wants to use. If two people can't achieve some sort of compromise to have a mutually happy marriage, whether it concerns sex or not, confronting each other in an aggressive manner won't help. Asking for compromise, or whether compromise is possible is one thing. Expecting your partner to change is another. When someone says, "Why don't you divorce me", they're likely at the point where they feel pretty badly challenged and insecure. Further challenging isn't going to help.

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moonfairy3349

I suppose it was a dream to think things could be so simple. :rolleyes: Is there something you can do to show her you enjoy her? Like, take a day off and do a date or whatever it is you romantic types do ... :P She might be more willing to talk with you if you precede it with awesomeness.

As an asexual who was once with a sexual person, I would NOTTTTT suggest doing this. (I wouldn't even suggest this for asexual relationships.) If anything, it might make her think that the only reason you gave her such a special day was because you wanted something out of it. My ex used to do this all the time (trying to be all nice and sweet only to then attempt something later on), and it really upset me even more than if he had just approached me directly without all of the (what I call) bullshit.

Being romantic, I think, is displaying spontaneous acts of caring/love without expecting anything in return. I do agree with making time to just spend a day with her or cuddle with her or something, but do this WITHOUT having any expectations. I do absolutely suggest talking to her and being direct, but NOT directly after doing something nice for her. If you want her to talk to you more openly, you have to build trust with her. She may be avoiding you because she doesn't know what's wrong with her, because you might be asking for answers she doesn't have/cannot give, because she might not trust you, or because she is simply afraid of what will happen in the future.

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Sally

Ornello, please post your misleading comments somewhere else so they don't confuse our sexual friends on this forum. We're know you're not serious; they don't.

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samepage1

Maybe start the topic out with less about why you're unhappy, and ask her why she is. Why she thinks she's a terrible wife. If she says 'Because of all the things you've pointed out,' then retort with 'Then why can't you give me an explanation for those things?' Just dig till you get the root of the problem.

Yes! Yes! YES!

Your wife probably feels like you are forcing this conversation on her. You are. And many people have said that you should force it, more than you have been.

But I think Bat is right that you'll be more effective if you turn this into her opportunity to say what she feels. I'm sure she has plenty to say, but she hasn't said much because she's afraid it will be hurtful to you, and she's probably right. If she's asexual, she probably can't even begin to comprehend why sex would be so important to you (not that it seems to be extremely so to you), in which case your desire for sex probably seems ridiculous to her. She may love you more than you need, but it doesn't fully count to you if there's no sex. Her love in not enough. She has to give you something that she can't. Or, since you've said that you could go without sex, she feels like she cheating you, and she desperately doesn't want to, but she just can't help it. There's always going to be something missing for you, and she can't fill it. How should someone feel about that? I imagine she feels pretty terrible, and she knows that sex is "supposed" to be a part of relationships.

So, you've read AVEN, you know that the perspective of an asexual is much different than that of a sexual. Can you handle listening to whatever she might think so she can feel okay about saying it? She's probably dying to, if only she could. She probably feels isolated because no one could understand.

There could be a number of reasons that she won't say she's asexual, even if she is. Maybe she doesn't understand why she would want a relationship with you if she is asexual. Maybe she feels like she could change for you because she loves you.

I don't know how she feels, and I don't want to put words in her mouth so much as I want to give a flavor of the possible things she might feel, and say if she felt able to.

So, Bat's advice is superb. And if you ask her why she feels like she should have sex with you, that may give you some common ground to start from. Society has certain concepts of (sexual) relationships and these influence how you both approach your relationship, and I'll bet you were both unaware that some people are not sexual and don't fit with those concepts of relationships.

I am representing her side, and ignoring yours because you know your own side very well, I assume. I never said to do one thing or another, you're the judge on that. I wish you the best.

EDIT: to respond to Sally, I do have great concern with pushing, but sometimes people need a push to do something they really do want to do. You just have to know when you may be going to far.

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Not-You

Well, I FEEL like I've given her ample opportunity to explain her thoughts and feelings, and I hope I've done so from an obviously understanding position.

However, it is certainly possible that my perception is a bit skewed.

Ok, so I've gotten some great advice from everybody here. I'm still at a loss as to how to go about actually initiating a conversation with her that can help me understand what is going on without a) being too passive and just letting her skirt the issue, or b) being too insistent and therefore making her too anxious to be honest.

I know its dumb to be harping on it here because none of you know either of us. But I feel like if I can get some insight here I might be able to be a better listener.

Is this a better conversation to have face-to-face or via text message/email? I don't want to leave something so important up to a text message; however, on the other hand, I feel like perhaps she'd be less anxious if I wasn't in the same room.

So let's start there: without knowing anything about either of us, is this a better conversation to have in person or electronically?

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Stormy Wether

So let's start there: without knowing anything about either of us, is this a better conversation to have in person or electronically?

Personally I would prefer not to be face to face for something like this. Email is less overwhelming and also gives you the chance to say your piece fully and in a carefully considered way.

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Not-You

So let's start there: without knowing anything about either of us, is this a better conversation to have in person or electronically?

Personally I would prefer not to be face to face for something like this. Email is less overwhelming and also gives you the chance to say your piece fully and in a carefully considered way.

That is my assumption, too. On the other hand, emails are pretty passive. If she doesn't respond in a given period, do I just start spamming her? :lol:

Edit per Mod request.

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Stormy Wether

That is my assumption, too. On the other hand, emails are pretty passive. If she doesn't respond in a given period, do I just start spamming her? :lol:

Spousal spamming :lol:

Also, I meant to ask about Ornello. I've supremely confused by this poster, now. Is he a genuine troll? Or is he a board-sanctioned troll? An inside joke troll? Or just an honest-to-goodness member?

ah, mustn't use the T-word. Think of ornello as one of the exotic forum fauna one encounters from time to time. Sadly not as entertaining as orlok, or the early postings of G-max (though the G-standards have slipped of late).

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mylittlehazmat

AVEN doesn't board sanction anything that might in other circumstances not be allowed. Just putting that out there.

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Not-You

Ok. So let's just assume I'm going to utilize Al Gore's invention to help me communicate.

Would it be wise to set a deadline for a response? Or is that just...anal? Do I ever ask about my email in real life ("hey, did you get my email the other day? You know, THE ONE?"). I'm serious about what to do if she never responds. For instance, I sent her the AVEN FAQ about a month ago and asked her just to tell me how she felt about it. I get the distinct feeling she was not planning on responding to me.

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mylittlehazmat

sdlkghsdg snick. I hate avoidance. ;_; But I do it too, I'm /such/ a hypocrite ...

Ummmmm. How often does she use the computer/check her email? Based on her behaviour, when is she going to see it? And between when she is going to see it, read it, contemplate it, sort out a response, how much time will have passed? And I mean, if this was a problem that had to do with anything by sexuality, say, figuring out babysitting for your daughter or something or equal importance, how much time will have passed between seeing it and having an apropos response? Then maybe double it for good measure, and you've got your deadline. That's how I tend to figure out my own deadlines. Usually it amounts to about 48 hours depending on current events.

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Not-You

sdlkghsdg snick. I hate avoidance. ;_; But I do it too, I'm /such/ a hypocrite ...

Ummmmm. How often does she use the computer/check her email? Based on her behaviour, when is she going to see it? And between when she is going to see it, read it, contemplate it, sort out a response, how much time will have passed? And I mean, if this was a problem that had to do with anything by sexuality, say, figuring out babysitting for your daughter or something or equal importance, how much time will have passed between seeing it and having an apropos response? Then maybe double it for good measure, and you've got your deadline. That's how I tend to figure out my own deadlines. Usually it amounts to about 48 hours depending on current events.

She's got her BB glued to her palm. So she'll see it immediately. Or at least as soon as she chooses to open it. Do I literally set out a deadline in the email, or just set one up in my own mind? What's my follow-up if/when the deadline passes?

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mylittlehazmat

I tend to get obnoxious, so don't take my advice in terms of /what/ your follow-up should be ... (ie. I'd send another email being like THIS IS SPAM U SHOULD REPLY TO ME YEA) ... so you can see why I don't recommend it.

I wouldn't tell her about the deadline, because that'll just enforce more avoidance. Perhaps you should then just hit resend after the 48 hours has passed, if she avoids again, maybe send a third, and if she continues to hit that delete button, maybe then you should bring it up verbally.

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Not-You

All right. Thanks for all the help, btw.

Now, pretend you were in her situation (married, fully aware your spouse is feeling...something negative about your lack of sex, having discussed the issue many times, and aware that your spouse has at least expressed a willingness to accept you as you are--whether you believe him/her nor not--and that you have at least a small aversion to the topic as a whole):

What are the questions you would like to be asked? This is some off-the-wall roleplay, I know. But it's helping me for sure.

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mylittlehazmat

I'm sorry, I'm not the person to ask that. Even if I avoid a subject, if someone broaches it with me directly, as you have, I tend to break it down, not guilt trip them by saying I'm a horrible wife or something. I honestly do not understand her actions, so you might have to find someone else to do this odd roleplay with. x3 My apologies.

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Not-You

I'm sorry, I'm not the person to ask that. Even if I avoid a subject, if someone broaches it with me directly, as you have, I tend to break it down, not guilt trip them by saying I'm a horrible wife or something. I honestly do not understand her actions, so you might have to find someone else to do this odd roleplay with. x3 My apologies.

poop

:lol:

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Sally

I'm going to break from the crowd here (think I already have).

You cannot force her to answer you. You can ask verbally, and email her, and text her, and keep hounding her until you drive her and yourself crazy. But you cannot force another person to discuss something they don't want to discuss. If you keep trying to do so, you may force her into something you won't want.

Before you decide how to try again to get her to answer you, decide 1) what exactly you want from this, and most importantly, 2) what your action will be if you don't get it. Because just because you want something doesn't mean you're going to get it.

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Tanwen

Ornello's post has been deleted.

Tanwen

SPFA Co-Mod

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Phoenix9

I hope I don't sound horrible for suggesting this, but what I'd do is to go to her and talk with her. And say that her not wanting to talk to you hurts you. She's avoiding the topic and you should tell her that, gently. And when she says depreciating comments about herself, tell her that it hurts you when she says such things about herself because they're not true. She's probably hurting herself thinking about these things and you have to make it clear that her being hurt hurts you because you love her so much and hate to see her hurt.

I know it's easier for me to say these things on this side of the screen; I can't imagine how hard it must be for you. You seem like a really good, patient person and I frankly feel for your situation. :( But you do need to talk to her and maybe even push for the conversation because it doesn't seem like she'll initiate on her own. Give her your list of things that you've posted above. And tell her that you love her, multiple times. You just want to understand her and that seems like a fair question to want an answer to. Be honest and well, be vulnerable. If someone's talking to me from a position of power, I'm likely to be avoidant. But if someone's coming to me and offering their heart up, I'm sure going to be more open. Trust begets trust.

Good luck and keep us updated.

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Not-You

I'm going to break from the crowd here (think I already have).

You cannot force her to answer you. You can ask verbally, and email her, and text her, and keep hounding her until you drive her and yourself crazy. But you cannot force another person to discuss something they don't want to discuss. If you keep trying to do so, you may force her into something you won't want.

Before you decide how to try again to get her to answer you, decide 1) what exactly you want from this, and most importantly, 2) what your action will be if you don't get it. Because just because you want something doesn't mean you're going to get it.

1) What I want from her is an honest answer about her feelings towards sex. Just in general. With me or anybody or anything. That's all I want. 2) I don't have an action if I don't get #1. And she knows that. That's why #1 has never really been answered.

@ phoenix: that's basically what most people have been saying in this thread. I'll figure something out. Thanks for the advice!

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Not-You

Haven't sent it yet, but how's this?

I want to understand. That's all I really want. I just want to know what you think and how you feel about sex as an idea. I want honest answers. I don't care what the answers are. I really don't. I mean, yes I want to have sex with you (for hundreds of reasons). But it's not going to ruin my life if I don't get to.

So I simply want to know how you feel. But I can't get you to talk about it because all you say is "I don't know." Or "sorry I suck." Those answers don't help me understand what is going on. For the record, you are not a terrible wife because we don't have sex. You don't suck and you aren't broken. I love you and I always will, no matter what. Again, all I WANT is to know what's going on in your head. I need to know you! I'm here for you. I'm never going anywhere. But I am going crazy not being able to understand what you are going through.

And maybe you really don't have any idea about yourself. If that's the case...I don't know what to do.

Since I can't get you to talk to me about how YOU feel, I thought I might try this: please ask me questions that you have. Just respond to this email and ask me some questions about me.

Also, I know that, no matter what, we can't have sex until [baby's name] can sleep by herself for a long while. So we can put that aside for now. I also know that this is a better conversation to have in person; however, I believe you will be more comfortable if I'm not there while you are thinking.

So, ask me some questions please.

I love you.

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