perceptions of asexuality as deviance

[Elf people]

Have you ever tried telling ppl about the fact that you are asexual? Well for years I kept it a secret primarily because I was not sure myself.

Then I plucked up the courage to finally come out- it was grad school right and these were all colleagues in Political Science -and I never expected the reaction I got. To an extent I could have accepted the classical Other-ing -that would have at least entailed an acceptance of asexuals as a category even if that kind of attitude relegates to asexuals a marginal status.

In case you are wondering why I told them- simply, I was fed up with ppl asking me whether I had a boyfriend and then talking about their boyfriends etc.

Here are the reactions I got:

Girls usually pitied me and treated my perception of my own sexuality as kind of a false consciousness- or a mental shield from the harsh fact of my unattractiveness :!:

Guys on the other hand could accept no such notion and had their alternative theories ready at hand- I was missing out; if I kept on this way I would be driven crazy by the unsatisfied sexual impulses (A simplification of Freudian notions, if that is possible), or as a last resort that I was lesbian or bi.

Then both groups of happily normal ppl tried to comfort me by oscillating between promising premonitions of finding a guy who could take an interest even in one as uninteresting as I am- and gloomy projections into the future depicting a crazed old woman with 20 cats :x

I mean - I am assuming that some of the owners of these posts have a political science or theory background- I was ecstatic to find some familiar terms:) Some of you are also probably familiar with statistics. :lol: Now does the definition of normal not depend on the curve under consideration? Some theories posit that asexuality ranges along a continuum -thus we cannot speak of any dichotomy between sexual and asexual. Without knowing the exact number of ppl who are asexual one way or the other versus the number of ppl who are sexual we can't know the shape of our distribution and of course cannot determine where the mean lies. So what is normal? :?: Obviously these ppl are also violating the rules of inference by looking at the visible sexual ppl in a large campus (hardly a representative sample) and arguing that the whole of humanity (the entire human population) is sexual. Come on, what's the use of a diploma if you can't make use of academic knowledge in daily life?

[VivreEstEsperer]

good point(s)! i will definitely try to come back to this post and respond, but its 3am and i must go to bed now...lots of final papers coming up but i will try to return as soon as possible! :) Kate

[AVENguy]

Quick thoughts:

Normal has much less to do with statistical curves and more to do with organization. What's normal is forming families (just ask the chrisitan right), as the basic economically reproducing self-reproducing units of a modern capitalist society. This is, I would postulate, what seperates sexual from nonsexual relationships, sexual ones are on the road to family (even if they last 1 night) and nonsexual ones aren't, the two roads must be treated differently. You say that you're asexual, and it's like saying that you're never going to form a family (eg, never going to "properly" be in love, never going to have kids, etc.) And no one in the room can process the idea that you might actually be FINE with that, having deviant (as opposed to "proper") forms of love, adopting kids only if you want them and leaving heterostandards of family out to dry. You say that you're incapable of achieving the sexual familial ideal, and so everyone assumes that this means you will be unhappy and goes about trying to convince you not to give up. So the women in the room assure you that you will, in fact, be able to attract someone (with whome you can form a family) while the men in the room assure you that you will, in fact, be able to find sexual desire, (with which to form a sexual-familial relationship) even if it is a deviant one (lesbian or bi.) Popular opinion is you can't be happy without forming a family, and the notion of an asexual family (which, by definition, would have to exist without clear deliniative barriers of monogomy) is too much for them to wrap their minds around. So they focus on what you would need to form a family/be happy: attractiveness to find a sexual mate and sexual desire with which to "really" love hir.

[Gorax]

20 cats? Come on. Go for 50 :) Hehe cats kick ass.

[Skiddaloxx]

A lot of people in this forum came out and got similar reactions. Personally, i haven't come out as asexual because in a way i am not sure if that suits me as a whole. It's only one puzzle of me. Secondly: straights don't have to come out, because it's normal to be straight. I deserve the same normality of my a-sexual state of being and coming out in some way can mean that you think you are not normal and owe others an excuse. Though others think that i am just a hetero guy who is not a successful womanizer. And some think i am gay. Of course i have a desire to clear that up, and i am interested if i get the same reactions as you. I think it's very very normal to be asexual, also because of AVEN. If people believe me or not, is not up to me. :idea:

Has anyone ever heard an all-the-way valid definition of normal? I haven't.

Love Respect Lemon-Mineralwater,

Skiddaloxxxxxxxxxx

[Eta Carinae]

What's normal is forming families (just ask the chrisitan right), as the basic economically reproducing self-reproducing units of a modern capitalist society.

I've seen you say things like this before, and I must call you on it.

I have doubts about how much economics has to do with it at this point in time. Rather, I think it's regarded as normal because, well, that's pretty much what the majority of people in Western society do, and have done for many years, and so folks see it as the normal thing. Not only that, but it's so engrained in the culture that people are effectively trained (by things other than sheer statistics) to see it as normal: even if everyone stopped getting married and went childfree today, that would still be seen as abnormal for a time, because our myths and stories and values and, in some cases, religions have "family-making is good!" written onto them. Those things have momentum. Yes, the nuclear family does seem to work in regards to economics, and that fact might be one reason why it's still around -- hell, it might be the main reason, although god knows cultures can hold on to all sorts of other things that spell economic ruin -- but cultural values seem a much more likely candidate for actually influencing people's views on the subject.

And, to do something besides pick at AVENguy's theories for the millionth time, I'll be on topic. I've said it before and I'll say it again: we are statistically abnormal when it comes to sexual orientation. If sexual orientation weren't a big deal, this wouldn't be much of a problem -- we'd be the equivalent of vegans: a little weird, but really, who cares? Unfortunately, sexual orientation is a big deal, and so perceived deviance is dealt with much more harshly.

[AVENguy]

A valid point to pick, inkburrow, though I don't think families being economically rooted is central to my overall argument. I do think, however, that if one were to go looking for a reason why norms of family structure are so culturally ingrained (we both seem to agree that they are) economics seems like a good bet. I guess I site as evidence major shifts in family structure (from extended to nuclear) with major shifts in economics (from agrarian to industrial, rural to urban.) I'm riffing all this from John D'Emilio's article "Capitalism and Gay Identity." There's a reason that there were more arranged marraiges in agrarian society: exntended families were an economic unit, who a 19 year old married was important to the overall structure and therefore up to the wiser heads of the patriarchs. My point, though I don't think it's terribly important here, is that social norms aren't determined arbitrarily. Cultural values are much more likely to adjust themselves to economic realities than the other way around (it's usually food first, art second), so it seems like the cultural structure of the nuclear family is, at the very least, economically convenient.

(Consequentially it seems that all this is related to WHY sexual orientation is a bigger deal than veganism. As long as sexual relationships form the foundation of family structures so too does sexual orientation: families are important (economically? emotionally? culturally? Just because everyone decided one day to really care?) therefore sexual orientation is really important.)

[cronos]

straights don't have to come out, because it's normal to be straight. I deserve the same normality of my a-sexual state of being and coming out in some way can mean that you think you are not normal and owe others an excuse.

That's why I have no plans to "come out". If I did, it would seem that I am asking for their approval to be what I am naturally and am not sure of myself. To come out opens the door to these reactions because it appears that you are not as sure of what you are.

If I just live my life true to what I am, without explanation or justification, creates acceptance because I am not asking for it. I haven't come out as asexual to my family or close friends, but they already accept the fact I don't do the typical "sexual" things (date, comment, oogle, have sex, etc.) and don't make a big deal out of it. To me, that is more important than telling them exactly what I am.

Now, I'm sure that some people assume that I'm straight, bi, gay, etc. That doesn't matter to me because this is their perception and only they can change that perception. If someone makes an incorrect assumption about a certain aspect of my life, I will correct them, but I won't tell them the whole story because they didn't ask for it to be told. And I have more important things to do with my life than explain and justify it repeatedly.

[Skiddaloxx]

Cronos said:

I have more important things to do with my life than explain and justify it repeatedly

LOL hey what about recording an explanation onto a tape, and if somebody asks, you just play it to them!! *rofl*

My petit comment on the evergreen normal-statistics-topic....

I agree with Inkburrow. AVENguy, in the western world the family values have changed a bit. There are single working mums, everyone wants to work, divorces on the assembly line, the common 4-piece family is almost dying out. SEX today doesn't aim at creating families, it's a status symbol. You are young, sexy, tanned, driving a sportscar, rich and well-dressed. Losing virginity is such a big achievement when you are a teenager. Everyone has this massive pressure to have sex, so when they finally can jump over the cliff and belong to the sexual, they can be relieved. Virgins over 20 are the losers! I am ashamed of myself when i think back...i told some aquaintances that i actually had sex. But of course that's not true. It's so hard sometimes to tell the truth, although they'd be accepting you anyway. Sex is such a must-have. If you are doing it, you are cool. If i look at the facts, I'd say people fuck for pure pleasure and not making babies in most cases.

Skiddaloxx

[Eta Carinae]

A valid point to pick, inkburrow, though I don't think families being economically rooted is central to my overall argument.

I just like to pick on things I think are wrong, relevant or not. I'm obnoxious that way.

I do think, however, that if one were to go looking for a reason why norms of family structure are so culturally ingrained (we both seem to agree that they are) economics seems like a good bet. (snip example)

This is a good point, actually, with a strong example to back it up, and one that I hadn't thought of. Still, I'm hesitant to make the leap from "economics necessarily heavily influences the family structure" to "economics necessarily* heavily influences the attitudes towards those who don't participate in the family structure." Economics might be the reason for the structure in question, and it might by the reason for the structure's prominance within our culture's system of values and myths, but attitudes towards the structure strike me as being caused by the values and myths themselves. That make sense?

* I say "necessarily" because in systems where economic considerations are a major reason for marriage -- systems with things like dowrys -- then economics is going to influence the views society has towards those who won't tow the line. But I don't think that modern Western society is such a system.

[AVENguy]

Ink- I agree entirely that it's economics aren't on people's mind when they gay bash (which seems like it's what we're talking about.) It's definitely about cultural values (norms) but it helps to understand the (economic) skeletal structure of those norms to understand exactly where they are and where they'll resist if you push them.

Skidd: I agree that people (much to the christian right's dismay) aren't having sex solely for the purposes of reproduction. If they were WE'D still be having it, ironically enough (I would anyway.) I would also argue that single moms are considered "deviant" when compared to mom-and-pop households. Sex is a status symbol, but lets deconstruct what KIND of a status symbol. Why is virginity considered one of the main markers for entering the adult world? (More even than one's first paycheck, or casting one's first ballet.) Sex is a big deal, and to me it seems like that undercurrent of all that is this stuff around family: being sexually active means that you have started the process of forming a family and thereby have started the process of removing yourself from your parents. Even if you're doing everything in your power to avoid pregnancy, or if it's not a possibility the stigma remains.

[aury]

when i tell people i'm asexual, these are the reactions i get:

1. that's so sad.

2. you're too young to be asexual.

3. it's a phase.

4. you have a dick?

5. bullshit!!!

idiots... :x :evil:

[cronos]

LOL hey what about recording an explanation onto a tape, and if somebody asks, you just play it to them!! *rofl*

I am insulted! I would never stoop to that level.

That's what webspace and MP3 files are for. :D

[Strange Little Girl]

i will be the mean old lady down the street. the crazy old lady with 50 cats and all the balls in her yard because the kids played to close to her house. and ill sit on my porch in my rocker with a broom stick in my hand.

ahh, the joys of getting old ^^

[atc747]

i will be the mean old lady down the street. the crazy old lady with 50 cats and all the balls in her yard because the kids played to close to her house. and ill sit on my porch in my rocker with a broom stick in my hand.

ahh, the joys of getting old ^^

strange little girl, where are you going? That's awesome! I have a friend that wants to be the crazy old man with a gazillion pop tabs. I want to be the crazy old man that lives on a farm and plays the ukelele all day, same thing over and over again... rambling about nonsensical philosophies and the end of existance.

May all our dreams come true =)

[Strange Little Girl]

hey, maybe we can all live on the same block and make a nice collection of neighborhood kids' toys.

oh, and i'll be playing metallica/tori amos/billy joel until the day i die. ^^

[Skiddaloxx]

I SORT OF came out yesterday,....my mom and aunt asked me if i have a girlfriend or if i want one, and i just said: "No, i haven't got any interest in that!"

The next moment was spooky, but exciting. They gave each other a confused gaze. Silence. Then my aunt asked: "But you want to have one in the future, right?" Me: "Maybe, but at the moment i just don't want one." And then a little discussion came up, because i told them that i don't NEED someone, as they seem to do. Both are divorced and single and feel like uncomplete because there is no man in their lives. I got kinda angry and said: "I don't get it! What's up with you? You are always saying that you want and need a man to be with, like this will save you from anything! Crap! U cannot expect anyone else to save you and live your life! I don't get it why everybody desperatly NEEDS someone. Stop pitying yourselves and gain control over yourselves!!"

I prefer saying "I am not interested in sex/relationships" to "I am asexual"

Skiddaloxx

[anythingtestdead]

...

[Bestatued Head]

I think people are just jealous that we are independent souls. We need no one to influence us or our future. (through the whole sexual normalcy theory AVENGUY had spoke of.) I'm glad my parents took my "coming out" well, and also when hinting asexuality to my great grandmother who said, "I've had seven children, they are a pain in the ass from the day their born... God may have said 'be fruitful and multiply' but our world is full of our human bullshit... sex is overrated... you do as you please and don't let a man persuade you to do stuff that you don't want to be done. Nobody told me and I feel like shit"

My family kicks ass... and too they don't assume things a/b people... because it only leads to bitterness.

[Gorax]

I wrote an article about getting old once. It was supposed to go on my web site but I lost it. I'll post it when I find it.

[Strange Little Girl]

I wrote an article about getting old once. It was supposed to go on my web site but I lost it. I'll post it when I find it.

ooh. i wanna see it. and what a very intresting website you have. and a lovely lovely middle finger might i add ^^

[Gorax]

Here's the article. Hehe aren't you guys lucky? You get to see it before everyoen else who looks at my web site! Most people who have seen my site are from here anyway though so I don't think it matters *L* It was on my other computer, but I was able to back it up before it REALLY broke down:

The recipe for respect. Guaranteed results within the next 60 years or your money back!

People want to be respected. It's human nature. That's why people do, or try to do great things because if they do something great, they will gain some respect. Some beleive that they have to do good things for people in order to be respected, others beleive that the key to getting some respect is to kill a few people, or be on TV, or have a lot of money, etc.

They are wrong.

On my last boring holiday vacation, I had a flash of enlightenment and came back to my house with a guaranteed method anyone can use to be respected by all. It's simple, all you have to do is wait four to six decades.

It's retarded, but it works. I witnessed the results when I was at grandma's house. EVERYONE respected grandma. It didn't matter if she was whining, drunk, rambling, or peeing on the floor. No one ever said anything mean to her. And if by chance I said a little joke at grandma's expense, everyone yelled at me. If grandma had to use the washroom, then whoever was currently in there had better stop what they were doing and vacate the toilet area ASAP. Explosive diarheea? TOUGH, MOVE OVER!!

I have observed the same phenomenon in many other places too. I remember a few years ago when some annoying neighbors were having a band practice and playing their crappy music so loud that you could hear it clearly even if you were four blocks down. I was two houses away. After an hour of the music getting on my nerves I decided to be an asshole right back to them and called the police. Thirty minutes later, no police in sight. I called again. Another half hour and still no sign of a police car. I saw my other neighbor (who is in her 80s) step outside, so I stepped outside as well. She told me that she called the cops five minutes ago, and sure enough, as she said that, a cop car rolled right up in the annoying-ass music house's driveway.

And everyone probably noticed that old people have to pay less when they go to the movies, or to most other events. Hell, they even get in free at some places! Is someone afraid that they will go on a complaining spree if they have to pay as much as everybody else? Oooohoho no! Whatever you do, don't disrespect the elderly!

It's a fact. An old person's opinion is worth five times more than anyone else's opinion. It's one of life's unsolved mysteries. If an old person yells, everyone will listen.

This gives me more hope for when I grow old. When I become decrepit, ugly, and useless, I will still be able to find happiness in the fact that I will have the power to change anything in the world just by yelling and whining. I've even started practicing.

[wb1974]

betterunborn,

Yeah, I can relate. This weekend, I was invited a friend's bachelor party. I expected the typical. Going the bar. Getting trashed heading to a strip club. After the strip, yet more drinking and debauchery, and, of course, porn movies and such.

Hey. I don't mind going to the bar every so often, and drowning my troubles in alcohol. I can appreciate that. But, on personal note, I find bachelor parties a ridiculious waste of my money and time. As an asexual, I find the strip clubs and the porn movies afterwards completely uninteresting. So, I told my friend that I could not make his bachelor party.

After numerous badgerings from my friend about why I was not going, I simply blurted that I am asexual, and, later, I had to that I have no interest in sex with either gender and anything related to sex like strip clubs, relationships, children, and etcetera. He was floored. He simply could not comprehend such a thing.

So, he comes back, "So, you are gay?". Aye curumaba. I asked him what part of no sex with any gender he did not understand. So, I have to reconsider this whole coming out in the public thing.

To most asexuals , it is obvious the difference between a hetesexual, homosexual, bisexual, and an asexual. But, I have to wonder how many people in the sexual world would intepret asexual as heterosexual or homosexual depending on the group that one hangs out with.

I am curious if anyone else has had a similar experiences.

[VivreEstEsperer]

WB, your unfortunate experience reminds me of the article on the glssen site...about the boy who said he was asexual, and then the whole article was talking about how schools are not safe for gay kids!!

Society just simply does not seem to be able to conceptualize asexuality. It's either got to be hetero or homo for them: very few seem to be able to understand.

But there are some that do, so keep going and you'll find them eventually.

Its interesting, what people are saying about 'coming out' in terms of asexuality is exactly how I felt when I thought I was gay...I was like, why should i 'come out', coming out implies there's something wrong with it so Im just gonna live , give hints, whatever. In terms of asexuality...I feel like I want people to know who I am (cue the Iris song - " I just want you to know who I am... and so I have been telling some people about it. Also because I want people to know it exists, too. Asexuals are saddled with so much more of a visibility problem than gays...although I dont deny that their problem is great as well.

aack, kept getting distracted while writing this post

Kate

[Sunfell]

I don't think that I've even 'come out' as asexual- it is part of who and what I am. I am at the age where no one dares to ask me questions like that, which is gratifying. If you are currently in your teens, twenties, or early thirties, you will notice a sharp drop off of probing questions of the sorts we've all been saddled with, and a rise of respect.

There is something to becoming older. :lol:

Also, age and experience can add an edge to your witty replies to miscreants who dare cross that line of politeness. I always tell people to develop a razor wit- if need be, sharpen it on the stupid. Their purpose is to serve as whetstones.

I am more than a label- even that of 'asexual'. It is what I am, although I have preferred to use the word 'celibate' to describe my desire for sex. The 'c'-word tends to send the sniffers away.

Sunfell

[Pete]

Sunfell,

Welcome to the board and thanks for posting here. I wish I had your experience of people gving you respect and distance as you age. Might it also be because you have rank or senority on them? My experience in the software industry is colored mainly by that fact that I've moved around a bit in the last 5 years, so I'm usually the new "kid" on the block that everyone's curious about. So even though I've been well into my forties for a long time, I still get plenty of "sniffers" asking leading questions. If anything I've found that older middle aged secretaries on the prowl are completely without shame when it comes to personal cross examinations.

[Sunfell]

Hi, Pete-

I am in my early forties, too. And I am now out of the military, so rank doesn't have any look in. And I've had a few jobs since my leaving the USAF 10 years ago.

In retrospect, I've had the probing questions and the Romeos sniffing around me in the early days of each, but my military time and metaphysical training has given me an aura of deep confidence and competence and a no-nonsense attitude, and when I switch that on, people generally don't mess with me.

It was quite a contrast from my military days, when I was a target for the squadron romeos who would try to crack my shell, and the betting pool would start as to when I would turn up 'popped' or pregnant. When they did not succeed, the darker rumours about my character and likes would begin. By the time I reached my third assignment, I was onto the betting pool, and I befriended the one very closeted gay fellow (I had a knack for that) and told thim to bet with me. We ended up splitting the pot.

In my current job, we have a rather eclectic and unusual mix of people. There are two gay men, two asexual women, and everyone else is either married with small kids or married and empty nest. So there are no probing romeos or crap like that. And having gained some great experience in fending off probes when I worked retail has given me an even greater 'don't mess with me' aura. People like me, but they know where the line is. I've had people aske me if I was married or had kids, and my simple 'no' seems to be enough. If they try to probe further, they get the Eyebrow and the Stare. Heh.

Sunfell

[VivreEstEsperer]

Also, age and experience can add an edge to your witty replies to miscreants who dare cross that line of politeness. I always tell people to develop a razor wit- if need be, sharpen it on the stupid. Their purpose is to serve as whetstones.

Ha, I like that. You mean all those people I went to high school with actually had a purpose? ha.

I'm good at witty replies...after the fact. lol

Kate

[VivreEstEsperer]

Didn't see the last posts...wow, two asexual women. How do you know they're asexual, have they said so? *curious*

Kate

[Sunfell]

Well, I am one of them, and the other woman (my colleague) has the same point of view and outlook as I do. We have nice long chats, so I know that we see eye to eye, since we like to gripe about the same things. I might even point her in this direction, although she's not much into posting, since she's got carpal tunnel pretty bad.

Sunfell