So-called friend fully believes in asexuality, but does NOT believe in bisexuality

[Trolley Girl]

Okay. I have debated for a while as to where to place this thread, and decided that I thought that the SPFA forum might be the best one. I could be wrong, and would appreciate it if someone thinks it belongs somewhere else and moves it accordingly.

Anyways, I have this (now so-called) friend whom I've always gotten along with until just a couple of days ago. I have long since come out to her about my asexuality, and she has been fully accepting and understanding of it as a legit orientation.

But here is the weird part. Just a couple days ago, I had mentioned bisexuality to her, and she openly stated that she does not believe in bisexuality at all! So, here is someone who believes in asexuality, but not bisexuality. She just seemingly dismisses bisexuality altogether, saying that people who identify as such are "merely lost and confused." WTF???

Now, from hearing this, many of you may find this to be a relatively new and unusual topic at hand. Some of you may ask me why I am making such a big deal out of this, but I am just addressing this matter to show that I am not at all close-minded, as many people in real life have labeled me as such after I have come out as asexual. It also illustrates how supportive I am of people of other orientations, bisexuality in this case, which fall outside the majority.

Also, since my so-called friend has a very unusual belief system, I would love to know what other AVENites think about the instance of someone understanding and accepting asexuality, but completely dismissing bisexuality as a state/phase of confusion.

So, any thoughts? Fire away.

[carried in bags]

it's suprising how many people don't believe in it. calling it "greedy" or "confused" i don't see how it can't exist. I wish I was bi myself, i find some guys good looking but only get that fuzzy feeling with women. If your bi, the world must be twice as pretty!?

I also hate it when "straight guys" act all disgusted and repulused when a woman they think is hot, turns out be be "male".

[A Long Time Ago]

it's suprising how many people don't believe in it. calling it "greedy" or "confused" i don't see how it can't exist.

They are still under the impression that bisexuality is chosen, which is not the case except for maybe a handful of cases (it would be presumptuous to say that there is no one who can change their own orientation by choice but such people are undoubtedly very rare).

I wish I was bi myself, i find some guys good looking but only get that fuzzy feeling with women.

I've actually hear quite a few people say this. In many ways, times are changing.

If your bi, the world must be twice as pretty!?

Depends on the type of bi. For some bi's, the world is twice as pretty. For some (like someone who is attracted to feminity whether it be in a female or male), the world isn't necessarily twice as pretty.

I also hate it when "straight guys" act all disgusted and repulused when a woman they think is hot, turns out be be "male".

It sickens me that some people are this homophobic/transphobic and unwilling to admit they find someone of the same sex (but opposite gender most likely) as hot. I've met one person that hasn't done that. A male friend of mine went to a girl party (guys were allowed if they wore a skirt and were willing to be made up to look female) and got all crossdressed up (from the picture that was taken, he was very cute and would definitely pass) and another straight male friend of mine saw him and said he was hot before and after learning he was male.

[Siggy]

Your friend is engaging in bisexual erasure.

The major difficulty faced by gays and lesbians is shame from society. Bisexuals have to face shame too, but additionally, they also face erasure. People think that bisexuals are just confused or indecisive. Or they're just really horny or greedy. Or they're closeted, or putting on a show, or trying to be unique. We don't know what bisexuality is, but it sure couldn't be something valid and real.

Sound familiar? It should! Bisexual erasure is very similar to what asexuals face. In fact, I'm surprised that asexuals don't borrow more ideas from bisexual discourse. "Asexual erasure" should be a more common expression.

[Trolley Girl]

Bisexual erasure is very similar to what asexuals face. In fact, I'm surprised that asexuals don't borrow more ideas from bisexual discourse. "Asexual erasure" should be a more common expression.

Based on the response my "friend" gave with regards to bisexuality, this is evidently the case.

According to her, one can be attracted to neither gender, but if they are going to be attracted to people, it has to be one or the other, but you can't have both.

I am just going to avoid talking to her until further notice, because I am currently so furious with her, it isn't even funny. I will leave it at that, because I hate getting started.

[A Long Time Ago]

Bisexual erasure is very annoying and gets under my skin. Not so long ago when I was actually somewhat sexual, I was bisexual and found it to be very annoying (upon reading about it) that so many people who are bisexual are categorized as straight or gay. Still bothers me personally as I am a panromantic grey-A (sexuality/lack thereof has been quite fluid for me making for an interesting adventure so far). It would bother me even if I wasn't pan or bi anymore.

[Olivier]

Bisexual erasure is very similar to what asexuals face. In fact, I'm surprised that asexuals don't borrow more ideas from bisexual discourse. "Asexual erasure" should be a more common expression.

I agree! I wrote a bit about a particular aspect of that last year here: http://apositive.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=237

[Trolley Girl]

Still bothers me personally as I am a panromantic grey-A (sexuality/lack thereof has been quite fluid for me making for an interesting adventure so far). It would bother me even if I wasn't pan or bi anymore.

Particularly my point right here. I mean, you don't have to be part of a particular minority to be frustrated upon hearing of its erasure. I am obviously not bi, but the outright erasure of it still bothers me as much as the erasure of asexuality.

[Rean]

I haven't ever heard of anyone accepting asexuality but not believing in bisexuality, but now that I think of it, it doesn't sound impossible at all. I mean, believing in bisexuality but not in homosexuality would sound a lot dumber, at least to me. Perhaps this sound so crazy just because bisexuality is currently more visible than asexuality?

Not that it makes it plausible or anything, I'm just rambling.

I also hate it when "straight guys" act all disgusted and repulused when a woman they think is hot, turns out be be "male".

I don't understand that either. In a way, I guess I can understand something of the sentiment, having had a somewhat similar experience while chatting with my brother. He had linked some Youtube video to me, and while watching it, I commented it saying, "Aww, cute @[insert time here]", and my brother replied, "? Oh, you mean the boy getting a lecture." Me: "That's a boy?" I still have no idea why the person looked less cute "as a boy" than "as a girl", but repulsed? I was not. Just puzzled.

Perhaps it's got something to do with the way masculinity is established through heterosexuality. Having attraction toward someone who turns out to be male would be devastating for someone who is a 100% bred-and-raised straight guy, and it's so hard to deal with that confusion that it's easier to turn the blame to the attractive person in question. Which makes no sense at all, if you think about it, so I may be completely in the wrong direction with this.

[Trolley Girl]

Perhaps this sound so crazy just because bisexuality is currently more visible than asexuality?

Yes, precisely! This is why I find it to be a relatively new matter at hand, but like you said, it definitely isn't impossible, as I have found out from my so-called friend's response.

It truly did come as a real shock to me, and it may take some time for me to get over it, but I should get over it nonetheless.

[SASE Icecream man]

Wow. I'm speachless.

"I used to be open-minded but my brains kept falling out," come to mind. It seems that your friends has taken that excuse. Un-be-liev-able. That is just fucked-up, if you don't mind me saying. I too am really sopportive in other orientations, and this is just..... weird.

Have some . She might get over it, not to bring any false hopes into place.

[Siggy]

Perhaps this sound so crazy just because bisexuality is currently more visible than asexuality?

Yeah, that's why. But the thing is, bisexual erasure and asexual erasure sometimes have different motivations. Asexual erasure is often motivated by social consensus. Who's ever heard of it? If it existed, why haven't I already heard about it, being the smart person I am?

I don't know as much about bisexual erasure, but I think it could be motivated by a sort of sex-negativity. Bisexuals are just using their identity to make it okay to breach sexual ethics. They sleep around, they do it to appear more attractive, they have threesomes. What's that, you say that you aren't personally interested in those things, and you prefer relationships with a single partner? What's your partner's gender? You couldn't really be bisexual then.

Now, if you think that's crazy, one of my relatives has no problem with asexuality, but doesn't believe that homosexuality exists. This kind of pisses me off, because not only is it bizarre and offensive, it's also completely contrary to conventional wisdom. If it were a popular opinion, then at least it's not entirely his fault. But since it's an unpopular opinion, it's as if he's going out of his way just to offend me.

[Trolley Girl]

Wow. I'm speachless.

"I used to be open-minded but my brains kept falling out," come to mind. It seems that your friends has taken that excuse. Un-be-liev-able. That is just fucked-up, if you don't mind me saying. I too am really sopportive in other orientations, and this is just..... weird.

Have some . She might get over it, not to bring any false hopes into place.

Thank you for your support, SASE. Hey, I don't take it into offense, because it IS very ridiculous on many levels. Like I said, I never would have suspected this, as bisexuality currently has more visibility than asexuality, as I am sure we are all aware.

Oh, and thanks for the cake! First time in a while anyone has given me any. Right back at ya:

Now, if you think that's crazy, one of my relatives has no problem with asexuality, but doesn't believe that homosexuality exists. This kind of pisses me off, because not only is it bizarre and offensive, it's also completely contrary to conventional wisdom. If it were a popular opinion, then at least it's not entirely his fault. But since it's an unpopular opinion, it's as if he's going out of his way just to offend me.

What. The. Hell??? I never would have believed this in a million years! It's usually the other way around, from what I, and alot of other AVENites, have experienced.

Amazing how many crazy twists can exist in this world!

[A Long Time Ago]

Perhaps it's got something to do with the way masculinity is established through heterosexuality. Having attraction toward someone who turns out to be male would be devastating for someone who is a 100% bred-and-raised straight guy, and it's so hard to deal with that confusion that it's easier to turn the blame to the attractive person in question. Which makes no sense at all, if you think about it, so I may be completely in the wrong direction with this.

And this is one of the biggest parts of transphobia. First, for transphobia against women in male bodies. 100% bred-and-raised straight guys fear that they will fall in love with a girl, who happened to have been born into a male body, thereby making the guy gay in the guy's flawed reasoning. Second, for transphobia against men in female bodies. 100% bred-and-raised straight guys fear that they will fall in love with a man in a female body while the man still appears to be a woman and find out later meaning that the guy was gay.

If all this fearful idiocy didn't exist, there would be a lot less transphopia.

Edit -- Clarified which types of transphobia and added details about transphobia towards men in female's bodies.

[Hikari Akai]

Oddly enough, I find bisexuality to make more sense than any other "sexual" orientation. I mean, if you love someone, why should something like gender get in the way? Of course, this might have something to do with the fact that I'm not repulsed by sex with a man or a woman. And no, I have no idea what to call that.

[Trolley Girl]

Oddly enough, I find bisexuality to make more sense than any other "sexual" orientation. I mean, if you love someone, why should something like gender get in the way?

This definitely makes alot of sense. Love is love. Gender shouldn't mean anything at all.

Of course, this might have something to do with the fact that I'm not repulsed by sex with a man or a woman. And no, I have no idea what to call that.

Indifferent, maybe?

This is just my best guess.

[A Long Time Ago]

Of course, this might have something to do with the fact that I'm not repulsed by sex with a man or a woman. And no, I have no idea what to call that.

Indifferent, maybe?

This is just my best guess.

Some would call this panromantic/pansexual but I am not totally sure even though I would say that I am panromantic.

Oddly enough, I find bisexuality to make more sense than any other "sexual" orientation. I mean, if you love someone, why should something like gender get in the way?

This definitely makes alot of sense. Love is love. Gender shouldn't mean anything at all.

If one falls in love with someone, their gender shouldn't matter at this point in my book though I would have doubts saying it should be this way for everyone (haven't worked it out yet). Now, gender can and does effect whether it is possible to fall in love with someone or not and how likely that is.

[Hikari Akai]

Of course, this might have something to do with the fact that I'm not repulsed by sex with a man or a woman. And no, I have no idea what to call that.

Indifferent, maybe?

This is just my best guess.

Some would call this panromantic/pansexual but I am not totally sure even though I would say that I am panromantic.

Oddly enough, I find bisexuality to make more sense than any other "sexual" orientation. I mean, if you love someone, why should something like gender get in the way?

This definitely makes alot of sense. Love is love. Gender shouldn't mean anything at all.

If one falls in love with someone, their gender shouldn't matter at this point in my book though I would have doubts saying it should be this way for everyone (haven't worked it out yet). Now, gender can and does effect whether it is possible to fall in love with someone or not and how likely that is.

I guess if I was to really identify every part of my sexuality, I would be an aromantic asexual who is indifferent and not adverse to either gender?

That's way too confusing.

[Trolley Girl]

I guess if I was to really identify every part of my sexuality, I would be an aromantic asexual who is indifferent and not adverse to either gender?

That's way too confusing.

I know, it can get extremely confusing. It's just not as simple as one, the other, both, or neither.

[Hikari Akai]

I guess if I was to really identify every part of my sexuality, I would be an aromantic asexual who is indifferent and not adverse to either gender?

That's way too confusing.

I know, it can get extremely confusing. It's just not as simple as one, the other, both, or neither.

It seems that way with most people a lot of times. Or at least, they seem to think its supposed to be black and white.

[Trolley Girl]

It seems that way with most people a lot of times. Or at least, they seem to think its supposed to be black and white.

But as we all know, "black and white" comes nowhere even near the truth these days.

It can be said to be very much akin to the so-called lines between love and hate, light and dark, good and evil, and so on, none of which are ever clear, or easy to find.

[Hikari Akai]

It seems that way with most people a lot of times. Or at least, they seem to think its supposed to be black and white.

But as we all know, "black and white" comes nowhere even near the truth these days.

It can be said to be very much akin to the so-called lines between love and hate, light and dark, good and evil, and so on, none of which are ever clear, or easy to find.

Maybe that "black and white" perception is why some people can't accept bisexuality. (to get back on topic)

[A Long Time Ago]

It seems that way with most people a lot of times. Or at least, they seem to think its supposed to be black and white.

But as we all know, "black and white" comes nowhere even near the truth these days.

It can be said to be very much akin to the so-called lines between love and hate, light and dark, good and evil, and so on, none of which are ever clear, or easy to find.

Maybe that "black and white" perception is why some people can't accept bisexuality. (to get back on topic)

Yes it is. There are people who say "You are either straight, gay, or lying" thereby completely denying bisexuality and asexuality in their black and white world.

[Trolley Girl]

Yes it is. There are people who say "You are either straight, gay, or lying" thereby completely denying bisexuality and asexuality in their black and white world.

Very well explained right here. Possibly this could be close to the close-minded view of my so-called friend, minus the denial of asexuality.

[GaiaShirley]

I've had interesting experience with people accepting certain parts of the sexual spectrum, but not accepting other parts.

Just yesterday, my sister said she didn't believe in bisexuality. The subject of sexual orientations came up after I went to a talk about queer theory. During the discussion with my sister, she was referring to homosexuality vs. heterosexuality in a dichotomous way [you can be either completely hetero or completely gay, that's it]. So I stated that I think she's ignoring a big part of what I believe sexual orientations live upon, which is the whole sexual spectrum... She said it's pretty much bullshit. She knows some people have "bi-curious" periods of time, but mainly they're just homo/hetero without knowing yet. [This reminds me of someone I talked too about sexuality a long time ago, and she said that even bisexual people "choose" a side eventually - proof is that they usually wind up in a long term relationship with only on of the genders. I didn't have the tools to respond to her back then, but for years I've been reliving this conversation saying - "you're talking about sexual behavior, not sexual attraction, dah!"]

Back to my sister: The weird thing is that she accepts my asexuality. She is the single member of my close family that has hugely supported me in my coming out, even by coming to a talk I gave about it [which I thought was a big step].

So why be so bi-phobic? My answer to this is that maybe she has had too many people in her life sexually exploring themselves, but not as many people ~freely~ exploring themselves. So when I came out to her as asexual, that was after a long time of self exploring in a pretty free and liberating space. So maybe I have, in her eyes, some honesty that simply "fooling around with everyone" - her concept of bisexuality, I guess - doesn't have.

Which shows that a lot of people lack the understanding of the sexual spectrum, as they only look at individuals they personally know.

The second thing this reminded me is of my bisexual friend. When I first came out to her as asexual, she thought it was a ridiculous "orientation" that didn't really exist. Being bisexaul herself, I found the response surprisingly inconsiderate.

Years to come, we spoke of the subject again. She said that after thinking about it, she could accept asexual people existing, but she could not accept me being one. Apparently, being a physical person as I am, she had a hard time understanding how come that physicality never morphs to sexuality in my life. More talks to come, she sort-of gets it (:

But I found the bisexual community surprisingly a-phobic, if I may use the term... So it's the other way around, but I must say this took me by shock.

But lately I've encountered an even weirder perspective. I was reading and writing a little in the Israeli Gay Youth community forums, defending a poor asexual girl who got booed out of their pride forum by one of the members. In his opinion, only homosexuality is a sexual orientation! Maybe bisexuality too... And even if we say that heterosexuality might be a sexual orientation - it's obvious that asexuality simply isn't!

Like - dude, stop legitimizing only yourself

[Trolley Girl]

I've had interesting experience with people accepting certain parts of the sexual spectrum, but not accepting other parts.

Just yesterday, my sister said she didn't believe in bisexuality. The subject of sexual orientations came up after I went to a talk about queer theory. During the discussion with my sister, she was referring to homosexuality vs. heterosexuality in a dichotomous way [you can be either completely hetero or completely gay, that's it]. So I stated that I think she's ignoring a big part of what I believe sexual orientations live upon, which is the whole sexual spectrum... She said it's pretty much bullshit. She knows some people have "bi-curious" periods of time, but mainly they're just homo/hetero without knowing yet. [This reminds me of someone I talked too about sexuality a long time ago, and she said that even bisexual people "choose" a side eventually - proof is that they usually wind up in a long term relationship with only on of the genders. I didn't have the tools to respond to her back then, but for years I've been reliving this conversation saying - "you're talking about sexual behavior, not sexual attraction, dah!"]

Back to my sister: The weird thing is that she accepts my asexuality. She is the single member of my close family that has hugely supported me in my coming out, even by coming to a talk I gave about it [which I thought was a big step].

So why be so bi-phobic? My answer to this is that maybe she has had too many people in her life sexually exploring themselves, but not as many people ~freely~ exploring themselves. So when I came out to her as asexual, that was after a long time of self exploring in a pretty free and liberating space. So maybe I have, in her eyes, some honesty that simply "fooling around with everyone" - her concept of bisexuality, I guess - doesn't have.

Which shows that a lot of people lack the understanding of the sexual spectrum, as they only look at individuals they personally know.

The second thing this reminded me is of my bisexual friend. When I first came out to her as asexual, she thought it was a ridiculous "orientation" that didn't really exist. Being bisexaul herself, I found the response surprisingly inconsiderate.

Years to come, we spoke of the subject again. She said that after thinking about it, she could accept asexual people existing, but she could not accept me being one. Apparently, being a physical person as I am, she had a hard time understanding how come that physicality never morphs to sexuality in my life. More talks to come, she sort-of gets it (:

But I found the bisexual community surprisingly a-phobic, if I may use the term... So it's the other way around, but I must say this took me by shock.

But lately I've encountered an even weirder perspective. I was reading and writing a little in the Israeli Gay Youth community forums, defending a poor asexual girl who got booed out of their pride forum by one of the members. In his opinion, only homosexuality is a sexual orientation! Maybe bisexuality too... And even if we say that heterosexuality might be a sexual orientation - it's obvious that asexuality simply isn't!

Like - dude, stop legitimizing only yourself

Wow! I must say that this entire post made for some interesting reading. It is truly mind-boggling as to how narrow-minded people can be from so many different directions!

[ZeSpec]

I find it endlessly confusing how people appoint themselves experts on everything. If you haven't done the equivalent of graduate work in sexology, or experienced the subject first-hand, your opinion on the existence of a sexual preference is not worth much. Best, then, to either accept the labels a group uses for itself, or not to talk about it at all.

[A Long Time Ago]

I find it endlessly confusing how people appoint themselves experts on everything. If you haven't done the equivalent of graduate work in sexology, or experienced the subject first-hand, your opinion on the existence of a sexual preference is not worth much. Best, then, to either accept the labels a group uses for itself, or not to talk about it at all.

First, to be arrogant for a brief bit: I am the expert in everything.

I couldn't resist the opportunity. You are right that when one doesn't have the knowledge, one should accept the label someone else uses or shut up.

[GaiaShirley]

Wow! I must say that this entire post made for some interesting reading. It is truly mind-boggling as to how narrow-minded people can be from so many different directions!

Thank you!

One of the things I've come to realize over the years of talking about a/sexuality is that a lot of time it doesn't matter what a person experiences in his own life, rather than what he is willing to accept other people experience.

What do I mean? When talking about asexuality, if someone identifies with something I have to say, it usually leads him to one of two very different but very strong statements:

1. "Oh, I've felt that! I see exactly what you're talking about, despite the fact I am a sexual person. I get asexuality now."

2. "Oh, I've felt that! And if I felt that, it means it has nothing to do with asexuality, because I am a sexual person. That means asexuality doesn't exist."

I was confused, hearing both responses in a matter of a week! But it just shows how people see what they want to see as part of the sexual spectrum. I'm probably missing parts of it as well :redface:

[jgm]

When talking about asexuality, if someone identifies with something I have to say, it usually leads him to one of two very different but very strong statements:

1. "Oh, I've felt that! I see exactly what you're talking about, despite the fact I am a sexual person. I get asexuality now."

2. "Oh, I've felt that! And if I felt that, it means it has nothing to do with asexuality, because I am a sexual person. That means asexuality doesn't exist."

I was confused, hearing both responses in a matter of a week! But it just shows how people see what they want to see as part of the sexual spectrum. I'm probably missing parts of it as well :redface:

I know! People can't use their own experiences to decide what other people's experiences are.

Out of curiosity, Trolley Boy, do you know if your ex-friend would acknowledge biromanticism, as opposed to bisexuality? I would guess that she doesn't really separate romance and sexuality, so probably not...