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Automaton

Free-will

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Automaton

Right. Here's how I've been doing with my sexdrive-dissassembling. How I've coped and when I've sliped up.

Task begins.

3 days - Success.

Failure.

3 days - Success.

Humiliating defeat.

...

Now, with the six days in control in total. I have been feeling really really happy, even though life has been more stressful than it has been for a long time, I've felt happy about who I am for the first time..um...ever. When I loose the battle, I feel incredibly depressed. It feels terrible. I never realised how much it was effecting me until I spent a few days without the drive. Now, difficulty is expected. But I'll win eventually, and especially when I finally get some of those cures. If there's no hope then I'll force it against my body with an anti-androgen. It won't win.

This rant is about free-will. Apparently humans have this god given free-will. The ability to decide and act and ask what they want without being controlled. However, hormones contradict that.

Yes, I'm talking about when control is lost here. I'll explain. When the hormones take over my mind it forces it against my will to think the way it wants. I'm such a different character when that happens. It really is like a split-personality syndrome, I'm not kidding. It's like having a voice in my head that I follow no matter what it says. I know it's wrong. But at the time, I just don't seem to care. If it told me to chop off your own hand then I'm sure I'd comply within 5 minutes, it's that strong.

I'm screaming in my head "No, stop don't think like that! Think of something else, anything! Just don't give in!" and the other voice would fight it so steadily and calmly.. "Why are you doing this? Why are you fighting it? You don't need to become stable.. you'll cope. It doesn't matter. Just forget all the pain and misery this has, and will cause you." I'd be repeating "I'm so going to hate myself after this" but it never causes a reaction. It's like I'm a puppet to the hormones, all logical thinking is destroyed. Finally I'd end up mastubating and then it's over, and they've won.

At the time, it makes me want to fail no matter what my real opinion, no matter if I know how much pain it's caused me. It forces my opinion to change. It's frightening.

Free will? No. There is no free will as long these hormones exist. This also poses an interesting question, do people themselves actually want sexual relationships (excluding pressure by society) or is it just a trick forced upon their minds by hormones. Are these actions and things they make and do (like that glowing-underwear etc), is it what they truly want to do? Or are they merely what the hormones make them think is the good desicision?

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-V-

How do the "Failure" and "Humiliating defeat" differ?

On a side note: I've felt the same way from time to time, although to a lesser extent.

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Automaton

Ah. Failure was just a glitch. Like a smaller slip up that I could avoid now that that I know of it. Humiliating defeat was a total hormone force-control.

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Guest

It's interesting that we are in totally opposite positions. Me trying to work to beat my repressed mind and achieve my true sexuality and you the reverse.

This also poses an interesting question, do people themselves actually want sexual relationships (excluding pressure by society) or is it just a trick forced upon their minds by hormones.

Yes I can say with confidence that I do want a sexual relationship.

Are these actions and things they make and do (like that glowing-underwear etc), is it what they truly want to do? Or are they merely what the hormones make them think is the good desicision?

Sexuals aren't that sex-crazed. I would never wear glowing underwear, and I dress extremely conservatively.

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Rabger
This also poses an interesting question, do people themselves actually want sexual relationships (excluding pressure by society) or is it just a trick forced upon their minds by hormones.

Hormones. I recall a quote:

"Love is a trick natural plays on us to get us to reproduce."

Although, I suppose that would only talk about hetero-sexuals. Amusing though. Very few people would want a sexual relationship if it weren't for hormones. There would be no point except to reproduce, and would anyone reproduce if there was no drive to do so? No pleasure to gain from it? No, because it would be boring, dull, etc.

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a1021

In fact everything in your body is controlled by some chemical messengers, not only hormones but also by neurotransmitters. All your thought are only chemical reactions. Who can say how much we are self-controlled and how much goes with these chemical reactions?

A few months ago i had the exact same problem, and i really felt dirty everytime i masturbated. but the more i tried to fight against it the worse it was the next time. Then i just didnt fight anymore and well, eventually it was gone. I think it was just the "forbidden thing" that appealed to me and after when i canceled this forbiddance and really made it frequently, i realized that there was really NOTHING ELSE but breaking my rules that appealed me and by now i dont need it anymore at all.

sorry, i hope you understand everthing, it is really difficult for me to explain this in english.

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pejoratist

Sure, it is embarrasing to be such a slave to natural impulse, but what is so humiliating about masturbation? As a1021 just said, perhaps you are simply beating yourself up over something that is an issue of your own perception. Unless I have misunderstood this thread, I see no reason for such utter shame. It will only cause your further pain to hate yourself for being human.

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Heimdall

Hmm, I see. You dislike the fact that you are not in control of that very thing that part of you dislike so much. Freud said that we have not much free will and that all our actions are utterly determined by unconscious compulsions.

You feel yourself split in two, and there is one part lurking, awaiting its time, until a good reason show for it to take control. And then, the other part is just there to watch, maybe trying to say no, but not with much strenght, in fact, only the other rule at that very time, and it's you, so there is no way of forbidding sourself something once you have decided to.

Well, that's what I would have said, for myself at least.

And now it's been more than a month since I last mastubated. How I came to that ? Difficult to explain, but I think the same as a1021, it's when you fight it that it get stronger. Just focus on the thought of how usless it is, pointless for you to carry on with that. You feel excited, well, it's no big deal, just try to get away a bit of it, and carefully examine your motivations. Meditation or relaxation may also help then, for it will clear your mind (just if you do it sometimes a week, doing it when you're excited would be far more difficult, and would not be anything more than a way of fighting your compulsion. You can't lie to yourself, so, you fight, you lose.)When it happend, just ponder your motivations with as much serenity as possible, brute force is the strenght of pulsions, reason is the strenght of mind, just draw the conflict on that field, and discuss your motivations. If what you want really is peace for youself, not slavery, you will have many chances of succes. If it is still too much, it is always possible to try some stimulation, but not that much, and finally stop it when you're bored with arguing with yourself.

But truly, if you think that you do'nt want that kind of manipulation from your body, I think that it is your right and that you should try your chance.

Oh, one last thing, when surprised is also one of the best time for compulsion to show, so it could be good if you yourself choose when you want to confront that increasing pression. (Anyway, pression should even out after some time, one week or so, as far as I can say), after relaxation/meditation for instance.

Anyway, good luck, I hope you'll gain that liberty you want. :wink:

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cijay

We do have a lot of free will, just not over EVERYthing. It's the old accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

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Automaton

"Sure, it is embarrasing to be such a slave to natural impulse, but what is so humiliating about masturbation?"

It's what keeps my mind from shifting to asexuality. Every time it regenerates my hormones, (not to mention wastes an hour of the little free time I have) and so it starts all over again and the more I do it, the more the "voice" talks to me and the less free-will I have.

Well, the task begins again. I've thought over an argument without the drive interfering, the pros and cons of mastubation etc etc and won against every question "the voice" threw at me previously. Now I know that I've already won against everything it told me I don't need to listen anymore.

Now whenever it even hints it's return my actions are to instantly think of the fact that I've won beforehand and that there's nothing that it can do about it. It appears to be working so far...

All these posts have helped a lot, thanks people.

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Heimdall

One last thing, inactivity and boredom may sometimes push you toward strange thoughts, and need to satisfy yourself, whatever the mean; just be sure to avoid that then. :)

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Zorui
Freud said that we have not much free will and that all our actions are utterly determined by unconscious compulsions.

Freud was full of shit. According to Freud, my love of chocolate creme pie is directly related to my father's sister's second cousin once removed's milkman's penis.

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Automaton
One last thing, inactivity and boredom may sometimes push you toward strange thoughts, and need to satisfy yourself, whatever the mean; just be sure to avoid that then. :)

Now I am the king of nothing-to-do. I really need to find something new... I haven't drawn or programmed in weeks. The thing is my imagination is quite broken and I just can't think up what to make in any kind of media - it's been this way for at least two months.

Hrmph.

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CybORC

Automaton:

Don't surrender!

The more you masturbate - the more you want to and the more you fade to sexual. Hormones are not rule humans' life. All depends of your Will and Mind.

Start going for some kind of hard sports...

Or write to Yuri Nesterenko, comte@au.ru

He khows English perfectly. In ages of 15-18 he has such problem, but he has won, absolutely.

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Jayann
The more you masturbate - the more you want to and the more you fade to sexual.

Woah, not true. Masturbation can't turn you sexual. People can be addicted to sex, but that is rare, and just simply masturbating doesn't mean that you'll want to engage in it more often. It also doesn't mean that you'll ever want to engage in sex with other people.

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CybORC

I meant that masturbation provokes need for orgasm (not necessarily as sex with another person). It's chain reaction, engaged by biochemistry of brain, and it can be stopped only with long voluntary abstention from masturbation or sex.

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Zorui

That's just what Jayann was denying, and she was right.

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Red Angel
Freud was full of shit. According to Freud, my love of chocolate creme pie is directly related to my father's sister's second cousin once removed's milkman's penis.

Freud's primary contribution to the field of psychology was that he introduced the notion of the subconscious mind.

Freud's primary flaw was that he never could accept that this was his primary contribution - and that some of the specific things he said about the subconscious mind could use correction. This is related to the fact that he never fully realized how diverse the contents of different people's subconscous was.

Freud actually fell out of talking-terms with many of his students (known as "neo-Freudians") who took up Freud's basic theory of psychoanalysis, but made some revisions.

The most famous of the neo-Freudians was Carl Jung, who speculated about the Collective Subconscious.

The one who caught my attention the most was Catherine Horneye, who split withi Freud over the issues of penis-envy and the fear of castration.

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cijay
The more you masturbate - the more you want to and the more you fade to sexual. Hormones are not rule humans' life. All depends of your Will and Mind.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Or write to Yuri Nesterenko, comte@au.ru

He khows English perfectly. In ages of 15-18 he has such problem, but he has won, absolutely.

Won what?

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Asmodues

Judging from the context, I'd say he's an abstainer who took things to the level of completely ignoring all sexual body hints.

If masturbation was addictive, then the vast majority of people would be doing nothing else 24/7.

Relief of stress is only needed so many times; doing so more often then needed does nothing.

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Einstein

Automaton,

I gave up for 40 days once. Difficult, isn't it. But if you actually want to give up, it's by no means impossible. Just take a day at a time.

What I don't understand is why you want to give up. It sounds like you're sexual, trying to become asexual, which I don't think is healthy, or even possible. And even if it was, masturbation wouldn't stop you being asexual. Loads of asexuals masturbate.

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Strange

Automaton, you have my full support.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with masturbation, but I understand you want to control it. Keep on !

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Asmodues

I was reading a <A HREF="www.somethingawful.com">Something Awful</A> post (Mocking other forums). I read something there I found quite interesting:

When you have sex, testosterone levels are raised, which provokes a need for more sex. Masturbation, however, 'scratches the itch', without raising testosterone levels.

I wonder if this is valid.

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dabishop

Hrmph. I doubt they've got any studies to back that one up. I always heard testosterone levels go in cycles, and that activities don't really affect them - but then, what do I know.... :)

Neal Stephenson believed that masturbation helped, but didn't completely set the balance right. Somewhere in "Cryptonomicon" he works out the exact formula of pent-up sexual urge vs. mental concentration - which could be convincing, except he also lays out the ideal temperature of milk and the maximum allowed mixing time of milk and cereal for the enjoyment of Cap'n Crunch.

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gypsylady

Automaton,

So how goes the fight?

Why is it, again, that you feel the need to control this part of yourself? And *how* old are you?

I *don't* agree that you're a sexual trying to be asexual. At all. Some people masturbate to relieve tension. Chronic masturbators may be using "the act" the avoid real feelings.

Therapy is something you may want to look into. NOT because you're broken and need to be fixed, but because something you're doing (in this case, masturbating) is distressing you so much.

There is *nothing* wrong with having a sex drive. It *doesn't* mean you're not A.

Keep us posted. Please?

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Automaton
Automaton,

It sounds like you're sexual, trying to become asexual...

Bingo.

Why do I want to stop? Because it keeps up the sex-drive. And the sex-drive interferes with my mind, my activities, my free time (I've wasted weeks of my life in total), and I've always felt disgusted at anything sex-related that I've done. It's always felt wrong. And I also hate being controlled by it. If I wern't controlled by it then I wouldn't have a problem. So I will become asexual, with chemically forced hormone destruction if I have to. I will win. Nothing will stop me.

Just think of it like a new version of someone who wants a sex-change! ^ ^

*Cough* Aaaanyway. I failed again, no I wasn't expecting that!</sarcasm> The split personality feebly argued and then I fell for it. And now I'm very annoyed.

So, I'm going to go through every method possible. Yes, I know this is a shaky start but I think as every time the drive convinces me, when I get my real mind back I can nullify the arguement and that's one less way to convince me.

So, I need to focus more on this... I'll make a chart. A chart of the days I don't give in to the drive. Then when I get X many days in a row then I'll find some sort of reward to replace the "pleasure" (and I quote that because it doesn't really feel that good.) that I lost in that week.

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a1021

To be honest, i dont think it is possible to force yourself into asexuality, you can live in abstinence, but really CHANGE into an asexual, just because you decided to, is not possible i my opinion.

Well and i cant help you to become abstinent as i can never get in real "seduction" which i would have to resist... i wonder if anyone here can help you with this?

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Strange
To be honest, i dont think it is possible to force yourself into asexuality, you can live in abstinence, but really CHANGE into an asexual, just because you decided to, is not possible i my opinion.

Well, I know the important message we want to promote here is: asexuality is not a choice, some people are just made that way.

I think this statement is true for most of aveners here, but the borders are not precisely defined. Imagine someone with a moderate sex drive. According to his environment, he may act as a sexual or as an asexual. If he willfully decides not to have sex anymore, is it abstinence or asexuality ?

Ok, I said "willfully" so it's abstinence.

But can you really take this kind of decision, without external reasons (like living alone on a pacific island), if you don't have a trend to asexuality ?

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Heimdall

Add to that that our friend may as well have a strong desire for autosatisfaction, yet a really feeble desire for engaging in sexual relationschip with someone else.

And even if it is not the case, I still agree with the "triangle", I mean, we already knew that not anyone is fully straight or gay, then, we now know that no one should be considered fully sexual or asexual. Trust me, given the right medication, you could change even the most asexual of us into someone with a sex drive, not necessarily for others, but need for "gratification" would still be there, for as long as the treatment would go on; anyway, my point is that anyone has more or less phases of asexuality, so this is not something entirely alien for anyone.

Lastly, I would say this to automaton: whatever happend, you did'nt really "failed", just try to analyse what makes you want gratification (and you're doing it, you said), and just try to hold on for more time each time you start again. You have our support, since it is your choice of life.

Feel good ! 8)

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Automaton

Thanks everyone for their support!

Mmm. The new way's working so far, my thoughts would stray and suddenly snap back with "So, you want your chart to be ruined then?".

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Guest
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