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Cows, pigs, deer, and sheep are intelligent enough that they can figure out what the heck a slaughterhosue is and that it's not a good place to be in. Chickens, turkeys, and fish don't really have that kind of awareness.

That's not true at all. I'm not sure about fish.... but I bet they know if something's trying to kill them.

I seem to have said nothing. That's probably a good idea ;-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Cows, pigs, deer, and sheep are intelligent enough that they can figure out what the heck a slaughterhosue is and that it's not a good place to be in. Chickens, turkeys, and fish don't really have that kind of awareness.

That's not true at all. I'm not sure about fish.... but I bet they know if something's trying to kill them.

Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there. Pretty much, they miss out on the psychological torture that a cow or sheep would feel. When they enter the slaughterhouse and see the dead and dying animals, then yeah, they probably figure it out, but it's way less fear and anticipation than a cow or pig would face. Some varieties of fish only have memory spans of 2 minutes. You can't tell me that something with that kind of memory span can realize that there's a giant net above their home that's going to scoop them up and toss them onto a truck. When they're on the truck, they don't realize that they're going to get cut up and pressed into cans or sold as sushi. This isn't Finding Nemo. Fish can't deduce things like that.

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Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there.

How is any animal supposed to know where a truck is taking them? Not even a person would know if you didn't tell them.

Cows and sheep don't like getting in trucks because they're grassland animals - Any enclosed space is an area where a predator could corner them. Compare that to mice, who feel safest in small places. Chickens and turkeys nest in dense shrubbery so they would be somewhere in the middle.

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Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there.

How is any animal supposed to know where a truck is taking them? Not even a person would know if you didn't tell them.

Cows and sheep don't like getting in trucks because they're grassland animals - Any enclosed space is an area where a predator could corner them. Compare that to mice, who feel safest in small places. Chickens and turkeys nest in dense shrubbery so they would be somewhere in the middle.

A cow might be able to pick up on the scents of cows that are no longer at the farm. And I would imagine that the trucks would be some sort of open-topped variety.

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And I would imagine that the trucks would be some sort of open-topped variety.

The only livestock trailers I've seen have been closed-top, like this one.

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Professor T. Pollution

Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there.

How is any animal supposed to know where a truck is taking them? Not even a person would know if you didn't tell them.

Cows and sheep don't like getting in trucks because they're grassland animals - Any enclosed space is an area where a predator could corner them. Compare that to mice, who feel safest in small places. Chickens and turkeys nest in dense shrubbery so they would be somewhere in the middle.

A cow might be able to pick up on the scents of cows that are no longer at the farm. And I would imagine that the trucks would be some sort of open-topped variety.

Er, let's get a few facts straight about slaughterhouses, CAFOs, and animal transportation.

-nearly all slaughterhouse transport trucks are enclosed, and often made of metal with rubber matting on the floor. Some are double-decker. Most are low-roofed. The cows are packed tighly enough that there is virtually no space in between them and they can't move much.

-I'm not sure what you're trying to say about cows smelling other cows. Do you mean that they would smell the 'missing' cows on the truck? If that's what you mean, I don't think that's got much to do with it; there are many cows in each shipment, and it seems unlikely that a cow could pick up on the smell of any particular cow that it 'knew.' Additionally, I don't see what it would do even if they could. The cows are not going to put it together in their heads, like "Hmm, I smell that buddy of mine who went missing. This is suspicious. I bet they're taking me somewhere terrible."

-cows in CAFOs don't get the chance to form normal herd-bonds anyway, so I doubt the above scenario could apply to industrially-farmed cattle even if it were possible to smell specific 'missing' cows

-animals do not need to understand where the truck is taking them to be scared of it. Likewise, they don't need to completely understand that they're about to die when they enter the slaughterhouse in order to be scared of it. When the cow in front of you panics because of the smell of the blood from the recently-killed cow in front of it, you panic too. And then so does the cow behind you. And the one behind that cow. Cattle are sociable, and they've adapted to 'know' that when another cow is scared, they probably should be too, and they want to get away from the scary thing or stand their ground and run it off (not likely with modern beef cows; they've been bred to be too docile on average for the 'stand off' reaction).

There's more to say, but I'm tired and not sure I'm making sense anymore, so I'll leave it at that for now.

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Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there.

How is any animal supposed to know where a truck is taking them? Not even a person would know if you didn't tell them.

Cows and sheep don't like getting in trucks because they're grassland animals - Any enclosed space is an area where a predator could corner them. Compare that to mice, who feel safest in small places. Chickens and turkeys nest in dense shrubbery so they would be somewhere in the middle.

A cow might be able to pick up on the scents of cows that are no longer at the farm. And I would imagine that the trucks would be some sort of open-topped variety.

Er, let's get a few facts straight about slaughterhouses, CAFOs, and animal transportation.

-nearly all slaughterhouse transport trucks are enclosed, and often made of metal with rubber matting on the floor. Some are double-decker. Most are low-roofed. The cows are packed tighly enough that there is virtually no space in between them and they can't move much.

-I'm not sure what you're trying to say about cows smelling other cows. Do you mean that they would smell the 'missing' cows on the truck? If that's what you mean, I don't think that's got much to do with it; there are many cows in each shipment, and it seems unlikely that a cow could pick up on the smell of any particular cow that it 'knew.' Additionally, I don't see what it would do even if they could. The cows are not going to put it together in their heads, like "Hmm, I smell that buddy of mine who went missing. This is suspicious. I bet they're taking me somewhere terrible."

-cows in CAFOs don't get the chance to form normal herd-bonds anyway, so I doubt the above scenario could apply to industrially-farmed cattle even if it were possible to smell specific 'missing' cows

-animals do not need to understand where the truck is taking them to be scared of it. Likewise, they don't need to completely understand that they're about to die when they enter the slaughterhouse in order to be scared of it. When the cow in front of you panics because of the smell of the blood from the recently-killed cow in front of it, you panic too. And then so does the cow behind you. And the one behind that cow. Cattle are sociable, and they've adapted to 'know' that when another cow is scared, they probably should be too, and they want to get away from the scary thing or stand their ground and run it off (not likely with modern beef cows; they've been bred to be too docile on average for the 'stand off' reaction).

There's more to say, but I'm tired and not sure I'm making sense anymore, so I'll leave it at that for now.

You are trying to logically explain it but animals and birds usually can sense death coming more than anything. I'm sure fish can too.

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Cows, pigs, deer, and sheep are intelligent enough that they can figure out what the heck a slaughterhosue is and that it's not a good place to be in. Chickens, turkeys, and fish don't really have that kind of awareness.

That's not true at all. I'm not sure about fish.... but I bet they know if something's trying to kill them.

Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there. Pretty much, they miss out on the psychological torture that a cow or sheep would feel. When they enter the slaughterhouse and see the dead and dying animals, then yeah, they probably figure it out, but it's way less fear and anticipation than a cow or pig would face. Some varieties of fish only have memory spans of 2 minutes. You can't tell me that something with that kind of memory span can realize that there's a giant net above their home that's going to scoop them up and toss them onto a truck. When they're on the truck, they don't realize that they're going to get cut up and pressed into cans or sold as sushi. This isn't Finding Nemo. Fish can't deduce things like that.

I don't mean logic. I mean sense that they are about to be harmed. Animals and chickens do. Fish I do

not know, but I would bet that they do too. I know from experience that fish can sense when you are

trying to help... so why not sense harm?

Please don't tell me you believe the 2 min myth.

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I have been a vegetarian since I was 6. I find eating meat unnessary and the farming industry undeniably cruel. I believe human being's digestive systems are primarily herbivourous. In the same sense that dogs eat mainly meat but can eat vegetable matter, I feel the opposite is true of humans. On an optimum diet we would eat primarily vegetable produce.

I personally live my life in the believe that my existance should not cause the death of any other creature. It is my personal life rule. I am not an "in your face" vegetarian though. I believe people have to choose their own path so to speak. most people don't know I am a veggie unless i have gone to their home and had to let them know.

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I have been a vegetarian since I was 6. I find eating meat unnessary and the farming industry undeniably cruel. I believe human being's digestive systems are primarily herbivourous. In the same sense that dogs eat mainly meat but can eat vegetable matter, I feel the opposite is true of humans. On an optimum diet we would eat primarily vegetable produce.

I personally live my life in the believe that my existance should not cause the death of any other creature. It is my personal life rule. I am not an "in your face" vegetarian though. I believe people have to choose their own path so to speak. most people don't know I am a veggie unless i have gone to their home and had to let them know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crohn's_disease

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease

Most people can survive off of a vegetable-based diet and may even benefit from it, but some people would die slow, painful deaths if they even attempted. Eating meat is very necessary for many people. I do think that the farming industry is very cruel, though.

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Cows, pigs, deer, and sheep are intelligent enough that they can figure out what the heck a slaughterhosue is and that it's not a good place to be in. Chickens, turkeys, and fish don't really have that kind of awareness.

That's not true at all. I'm not sure about fish.... but I bet they know if something's trying to kill them.

Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there. Pretty much, they miss out on the psychological torture that a cow or sheep would feel. When they enter the slaughterhouse and see the dead and dying animals, then yeah, they probably figure it out, but it's way less fear and anticipation than a cow or pig would face. Some varieties of fish only have memory spans of 2 minutes. You can't tell me that something with that kind of memory span can realize that there's a giant net above their home that's going to scoop them up and toss them onto a truck. When they're on the truck, they don't realize that they're going to get cut up and pressed into cans or sold as sushi. This isn't Finding Nemo. Fish can't deduce things like that.

I don't mean logic. I mean sense that they are about to be harmed. Animals and chickens do. Fish I do

not know, but I would bet that they do too. I know from experience that fish can sense when you are

trying to help... so why not sense harm?

Please don't tell me you believe the 2 min myth.

Still, I have a hard time believing that a chicken can comprehend as much as a cow and feel as intense amounts of pain as a cow. Fish, I really don't know either. They may be able to sense harm, but I don't think they can really fear like larger animals can. I'd imagine that their minds are more like, "OH CRAP, THIS IS NOT NATURAL. TRY TO SWIM AWAY. /instinct" than real emotional fear that a mammal can feel.

And yes, I believe the 2-minute myth. I've never been told otherwise. Obviously it isn't true for all types of fish (salmon are actually really smart) but I don't see why it shouldn't be believed for smaller types of fish. Small brain=less matter=less memory. And some fish have reeeeeally tiny brains.

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TheChronicWanderer

I'm in a phase where I'm eating less meat than I use to. I'd stop eating meat altogether but I don't do the grocery shopping and sometimes there just isn't anything else to eat. :/

I plan on going fully vegetarian and possibly vegan when I move out.

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Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there.

How is any animal supposed to know where a truck is taking them? Not even a person would know if you didn't tell them.

Cows and sheep don't like getting in trucks because they're grassland animals - Any enclosed space is an area where a predator could corner them. Compare that to mice, who feel safest in small places. Chickens and turkeys nest in dense shrubbery so they would be somewhere in the middle.

A cow might be able to pick up on the scents of cows that are no longer at the farm. And I would imagine that the trucks would be some sort of open-topped variety.

Er, let's get a few facts straight about slaughterhouses, CAFOs, and animal transportation.

-nearly all slaughterhouse transport trucks are enclosed, and often made of metal with rubber matting on the floor. Some are double-decker. Most are low-roofed. The cows are packed tighly enough that there is virtually no space in between them and they can't move much.

-I'm not sure what you're trying to say about cows smelling other cows. Do you mean that they would smell the 'missing' cows on the truck? If that's what you mean, I don't think that's got much to do with it; there are many cows in each shipment, and it seems unlikely that a cow could pick up on the smell of any particular cow that it 'knew.' Additionally, I don't see what it would do even if they could. The cows are not going to put it together in their heads, like "Hmm, I smell that buddy of mine who went missing. This is suspicious. I bet they're taking me somewhere terrible."

-cows in CAFOs don't get the chance to form normal herd-bonds anyway, so I doubt the above scenario could apply to industrially-farmed cattle even if it were possible to smell specific 'missing' cows

-animals do not need to understand where the truck is taking them to be scared of it. Likewise, they don't need to completely understand that they're about to die when they enter the slaughterhouse in order to be scared of it. When the cow in front of you panics because of the smell of the blood from the recently-killed cow in front of it, you panic too. And then so does the cow behind you. And the one behind that cow. Cattle are sociable, and they've adapted to 'know' that when another cow is scared, they probably should be too, and they want to get away from the scary thing or stand their ground and run it off (not likely with modern beef cows; they've been bred to be too docile on average for the 'stand off' reaction).

There's more to say, but I'm tired and not sure I'm making sense anymore, so I'll leave it at that for now.

For some reason I thought the trucks were open-top and made with almost fence-like sides. Maybe that's because I live by a lot of small farms where the cows are transported in more cow-friendly ways like open trucks.

I have a huge problem with factory farming. I don't think that a cow would flip a shit if it was just put onto the open tractor with a few (not dozens) of its bovine buddies and shipped to the slaughterhouse instead of the milking building one day. It would probably be scared for those last few minutes as it smelled the blood of the other cows, but I really don't have a huge problem with that being done as long as the cow lived a good life and the cow's death is quick and relatively painless. I may not want to eat it, but I definitely don't object to it being done. I think that more people should try to eat more plant-based diets and eat meat less frequency. Even if you're anemic or have an autoimmune disease, you don't have to eat red meat every day to be healthy. Some people need to eat meat to get digestible forms of protein that won't make them sick, but nobody needs to eat it in excess like many people do.

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You are trying to logically explain it but animals and birds usually can sense death coming more than anything. I'm sure fish can too.

I read somewhere that mammals and larger birds and reptiles can feel fear in ways that smaller birds and fish can't. They probably realize that they're dying as they're about to die, even if it's some sort of instinct, but I don't think it's the type of fear that an animal that feels strong emotions, like a cow or a lamb, can feel.

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All I know is that an animal or bird that is about to be anaesthetized tends to be a lot more scared than one I

am about to give a vaccination to.

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All I know is that an animal or bird that is about to be anaesthetized tends to be a lot more scared than one I

am about to give a vaccination to.

Probably because they sense your nervousness. Animals are very good at that.

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I'm a pescetarian and my reasons for going that route are for health and physical appearance. Though I selflishly admit it's more for physical appearance than health. I have always been obese and had to wear clothing that is about 10 sizes larger than most of my friends and even though looking at me you wouldn't really think I'm obese because my body composition kind of hides it I still feel like a walrus or something big and fat. As for the animals, I'm more concerned about the health risks they pose to use because of all the homrones and junk people inject in them to make them grow faster and sell more product. It's quite sickening.

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I've been vegetarian since about March this year. I'm actually not opposed to eating animals, in moderation. We're omnivorous and that's just nature. Better still if the farmed animals get a very good life. Thing is, they almost always don't. The degree of cruelty behind the meat industry is absolutely staggering. If humans were subjected to the same fate as, say, mass-produced chickens, it would be an atrocity that would make the Holocaust look like good harmless fun. We may argue that they're not sapient (self-aware), but they are sentient (aware, basically); they feel pain, lots of it, and if that's all so we can go along with the social norm of eating McDonalds burgers then count me out.

I don't judge people who choose to eat meat, because even though I was aware of this for some time, it took a while for me to 'convert' so it would be completely hypocritical.

I was recruiting donations for WSPA (yes, I was one of the guys who interrupts your dinner to ask for $15 a month to save orangutans in Borneo) when I decided to switch. I'd been launching into a spiel, when this guy cut me off and asked if I eated meat. I could already see where this was going, inwardly I groaned, but what could I say. "Yes." So he counter-spieled me. I don't agree with everything he said, e.g. human teeth aren't designed to eat meat, but the crux of his point drove home. I said I'd try it for three months. I don't think he believed me, but I actually did it, and have remained vegetarian ever since. (He donated, too.)

It's actually not that hard, not eating meat. I haven't looked back since, save for the occasional easily dismissed craving when you smell a barbecue. How Aussie is that? However, I had a blood test recently and discovered I'm cholesterol deficient. Which comes from not eating meat and which, it turns out, is actually as bad a problem as having too much cholesterol. So I've taken to eating more cheese and eggs, marked organic / biodynamic free-range, though I don't trust the standards those are measured by. Incidentally, I've also become testosterone deficient. Which is just terrible. :D (But seriously, that too goes hand-in-hand with why I've been so tired.) You have to be a bit careful if you're making the switch, a LOT careful if it's all the way to veganism.

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I am a strict fruitarian since January 2009. Previously I was vegetarian since October 2008, but I rarely ate mate even before that (ethical reasons only) :)

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Professor T. Pollution

For some reason I thought the trucks were open-top and made with almost fence-like sides. Maybe that's because I live by a lot of small farms where the cows are transported in more cow-friendly ways like open trucks.

I have a huge problem with factory farming. I don't think that a cow would flip a shit if it was just put onto the open tractor with a few (not dozens) of its bovine buddies and shipped to the slaughterhouse instead of the milking building one day. It would probably be scared for those last few minutes as it smelled the blood of the other cows, but I really don't have a huge problem with that being done as long as the cow lived a good life and the cow's death is quick and relatively painless. I may not want to eat it, but I definitely don't object to it being done. I think that more people should try to eat more plant-based diets and eat meat less frequency. Even if you're anemic or have an autoimmune disease, you don't have to eat red meat every day to be healthy. Some people need to eat meat to get digestible forms of protein that won't make them sick, but nobody needs to eat it in excess like many people do.

Agreed.

Interestingly, as far as I know it wouldn't be terribly difficult to synthesize all the types of nutrients that we get from eating meat — after all, we know how herbivores' digestive systems work, and they get their nutrients from plants just fine. If we applied what we know to the plants themselves, I'm sure we could chemically break down the nutrients that our bodies lack enzymes to deal with and get the nutrients from the (broken-down) plants instead of animals.

However, I had a blood test recently and discovered I'm cholesterol deficient. Which comes from not eating meat and which, it turns out, is actually as bad a problem as having too much cholesterol. So I've taken to eating more cheese and eggs, marked organic / biodynamic free-range, though I don't trust the standards those are measured by. Incidentally, I've also become testosterone deficient. Which is just terrible. :D (But seriously, that too goes hand-in-hand with why I've been so tired.) You have to be a bit careful if you're making the switch, a LOT careful if it's all the way to veganism.

At the same time, though, I would caution against that type of statement. Yes, you should watch what you eat — but that's true regardless of whether or not you eat meat. I'm far, far healthier than the average American, as my diet is significantly better. Not eating meat can be an issue — but so is eating packaged food, fast food, sweets, excesses of food, too much salt, too few vegetables, etc. You'll notice that when someone is thinking of becoming vegetarian, everyone says, "Oh, you better watch your nutrition!" But how many people say that when someone is thinking about biting into a McDonald's hamburger or a marshmellow? Very few. Most first world residents are already vastly unhealthy due to overeating, little exercise, poor diet, etc., and unlike residents of poorer countries they have a choice. They have chosen to be unhealthy...and as far as I can see, vegetarianism is generally less risky than the average American's diet. So yes, obviously making sure that you're getting proper nutrition is important, but that's true whether or not you're veg*n, and yet people only routinely point it out to veg*ns.

Personally I feel more energetic and healthier when I'm vegan/vegetarian (I'm vegan, but I've been vegetarian before) than when I eat meat.

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Absolutely. In my case though, I ate very healthily by most standards when I was eating meat, limiting a single serving of junk food to once a fortnight or less, having three or four varied sizeable meals a day (I'm skinny) fruit and meat and grains and many vegetables. Then I moved to the city, and it corresponded approximately with the switch.

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I am a strict fruitarian since January 2009.

Seriously? I would die on such a diet - If not because of the nutrition, because of the COST

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I am a strict fruitarian since January 2009.

Seriously? I would die on such a diet - Not because of the nutrition, because of the COST. Fruit is the most expensive kind of food here. Do you eat seeds too?

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  • 3 weeks later...
Born of Star Dust

The following is my reasoning for being a Vegetarian and why it is so important to me.

I am a vegetarian who is making the transition to vegan. My choice is completely based on ethics. When I was quite young my mother asked me if I wanted her to buy veal from the meat market. Naturally, being quite young- about 8 maybe, I didn't know what veal was exactly, and when my mother explained I became upset and asked her to never make me eat veal again.

Fast Forward a little bit to when I decided that I wanted to completely be a vegetarian, it was mostly because I could not bare to think that I was contributing to the senseless torture and murder of animals just because I happened to like the taste of meat. I was still fairly young and had contemplated my decision for a long time. At this point, I told people that while I did not eat meat, I didn't want to tell other people what to do. Looking back, I suspect this was due to not wanting to incite a conflict with my peers, because I was already teased and considered a weirdo. I wanted so very much to have friends and to fit in.

As I got older and began to develope my own personal philosophy, I realized that I DO want to stop others from eating meat. I do not want to sit by and just let this happen. I do not want to stop them because I am a control freak who has an inert desire to control their lives or tell them what to do (as some meat-eaters have argued- which is Ad hominem anyway), I only wish to stop a practice that I believe is wrong. I compare it to, though this is not a perfect analogy, the Holocaust. Most people in the world would probably say that the Holocaust was wrong, but the Nazis obviously thought that what they were doing was right. Would the right thing to do then be to say "Well, I don't want to murder people, but I understand that we think differently and so I don't want to stop you from what you are doing." And here I must emphasize that people take action in different ways. The White Rose, for example, made pamphlets about how they believed what the Nazis were doing was wrong. But I think it IS important for me, atleast, to say that the action of killing animals IS wrong and not just to sit back and say "I won't participate, but it's okay that you do it." I did not want to be an advocate for animals when I was younger, I just wanted to not be a part of the killing. I figured that someone else would stand up for the animals. But what I realized is that, although I dislike the confrontation, it is important for me to stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. If I do not stand up for the animals, then I cannot count on anyone else doing so. I have come to realize that "it is not god who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feems them to the dogs. It's us. Only us. (Whatchemn; Moore)" (of course my words were more the formless blobs of thought, and I just decided to borrow from one of my favourite novels which I reread today) And while some might find this loss of faith in god to be a tragic thing, I find it freeing. If we are the creators of this world in which we live, if we do not like something about it, then we can change it. All of us are small gods in a sense. It's easy to fall back on the idea that god has a greater plan, but I cannot accept that god, or atleast a benevolent god, would allow such suffering and tourment to take place. I can hardly believe it of humans.

My beliefs on this subject are based on the idea that cruelty and suffering are bad. Philosophically, when I try to explain why cruelty and suffering are bad, it ultimately comes down to the fact that I do not like to suffer and so when I see a behavior in another being that resembles suffering, I feel empathy for that being and want to do all that is possible to stop it's suffering. I do not think there is some metaphysical concept of "right" and "wrong" hanging out there in the universe, so I do not want to cause suffering in other beings because I like other beings and do not want them to suffer. I recognize that it is my love and compassion that have driven me to make my decision, and that this is a fairly emotional appeal. However I do not think it makes my claim any less valid. If we claim to not like to see others in pain, then we cannot take non-human animals out the equation, because they have nervous systems and thus feel pain too. Fish too. I've read claims that people think that fish do not feel pain. That is incorrect. They do feel pain, because they have nervous systems. If one is going to counter-argue that we don't "really know" that they feel pain, then I could easily argue that I do not know that YOU really feel pain and I could use that as an excuse to kill and eat you. If something behaves as though it feels pain or has the internal systems which are indicative of a being that feels pain, then we ought to treat the being as though it feels pain. And if we're up in the air or not really sure, then shouldn't we be prudent about the situation? I mean, if you're not really sure if I feel pain or not, then I would REALLY like for you to be prudent and give me the benefit of the doubt before you decide to skin me alive.

It is often a rule of thumb in ethics that we should base our ethical systems (how we live our lives/treat others) as if we did not know which body we were going to be born into. So, you don't want to say that people of one race are going to be slaves to another race, because then you could be born into the race of slaves. One gender or Sexual orientation should not be subservient to/bullied by the others. The belief is that if people had to make ethical rules BEFORE they knew which body they were going to be born into, then they would be much more likely to make the rules fair for everyone. So shouldn't this extend to non-human animals as well? If we were all sitting in "pre-birth" planning what we would believe to be the most ethical system to live by, and we knew that half of us would be humans and half of us would be cows, then you better damn well believe that you are not going to say that it's okay to torture and kill cows, because you have a pretty good shot at ending up as a cow.

Speciesism: When pressed, when we really get down to it, most people will say that it is okay to kill non-human animals, because they are not humans. People will often times make the argument that animals are not as intelligent as humans and thus we have the right to kill them. But if we are going to make the claim that intelligence is the key to determining who we can kill and we cannot kill, then we will inevitably run into some problems. For instance, who gets to decide where this line of "intelligent enough not to get killed" is drawn. Because if Stephen Hawking gets to draw this line, then most of humans in the world are going to be off to the slaughter-house. Do we say the least intelligent of all humans, let's say someone who is brain-dead and only being kept alive on life-support? Because if we make that move, then pretty much all the animals we eat are more intelligent and so you don't get to eat your cows, chickens, pigs, fish etc..., because if we're making the line of intelligence at "least intelligent human," then we have to include all these animals in the list of those who are not okay to kill. Now, usually, that gets most people thinking about if they really want to base an argument for ethics of killing something based on its intelligence, but there's always someone who will say "fine, kill and eat the brain-dead human." I find this disturbing, but we can still press forward, because even if you are willing to say that it's okay to kill and eat a brain-dead human, then we have to move the line up the intelligence scale, because inevitably the person who says they are willing to eat a brain-dead human does not want to be eaten themselves, so they have to draw the line somewhere. Next we move up the chain, so to speak, to a human baby or child. Pigs, chickens, non-human primates (who we test drugs on), and many others are more intelligence than a human baby. So, in this case one has to make the leap that it is okay to kill and eat a human baby or a very young child if they want to continue to be able to eat animals based on the "intelligence" marker. So as you can see, this demarcation of humans as being more intelligent than other animals, and thus more worthy of not being killed and eaten, is arbitrary and blurry- even if we could pin-point exactly what intelligence is and how to satisfactorily quantify it. And the demarcation of humans as "a superior species" doesn't hold up, because what if space aliens who are much more intelligent and superior to us in every way decide to come to Earth and say to us "Tell us why we shouldn't kill you humans and eat you, you do it to all the other animals on your planet?" And humans will say "Becuase we're human, we're intelligent!" And that space aliens will say "Yea, but so are those other creatures, and you killed them, and we're MUCH more intelligent than you, shouldn't we kill you." And the humans will just be left muttering "But we're HUMAN!" And the space aliens will say "Yea, but we CAN kill you and we hear you taste good on toast."

Based on the way we treat other humans, even if we place aside non-human animals for a moment, I think it's humorous to say that we are somehow are "morally superior species," and that because of this we have a right to kill those who are less morally capable. It should be specifically BECAUSE of our morality that we do not harm those who are morally inferior. Those of us who have the ability to use reason, logic, compassion, morality, ethics and the like have a responsibility to animals because we have so much power over them, and because we can choose not to cause them harm. And if despite this we still choose to cause them harm, then we aren't really morally superior. And if we are not really morally superior, and our argument is based around the idea that we can kill those who are less morally superior, then we have to offer ourselves up for slaughter.

Just because I happen to be a human and I CAN torture and kill animals (because I think their murdered flesh tastes delicious) doesn't mean that I SHOULD. Just because something is a certain way in nature does not necessarily make it good/right. Rape and murder of humans happens in nature, but we do not condone those actions. And brushing our teeth is not a very natural thing to do, but it is very good for us. Slavery was once considered okay to do, because the people being enslaved were thought of as "lesser," I contend that this is the same argument used as a reason for the monstrocities we take part in everyday if we eat meat. And funding the killing of animals is still killing animals- just indirectly. We have some arbitrary measure of what is okay to kill and what isn't, and I don't want people making arbitrary decisions with my life and with the lives of non-human animals. I don't think it's fair that just because you're a human, you get to decide to end the lives of countless beings who have done nothing to harm you. Those animals are tortured and often live short, brutal lives... and in the end most people say that they eat meat and won't give it up, because it tastes good.

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This post. So much.

It always irks me when a vegetarian proudly proclaims that they don't try to "convert" people, implying that everyone who does things differently is simply a fanatic. I get that there's a lot of social pressure involved, but I still end up tearing my hair in frustration every time. I don't keep throwing my beliefs at people until they start screaming, but only because I don't think that would achieve anything. Rather, I gently bring the topic up now and then during a conversation, the exact manner depending on how well I know the person and what their views on the matter are.

I'm very much torn when it comes to organizations like PETA, though. On the one hand, they definitely raise awareness to some degree. On the other hand, they often use methods I don't agree with (like randomly putting up possibly triggering posters) and end up chasing a lot of people away by doing so. I wouldn't be inclined to listen to someone who happily causes me to have panic attacks, either, ad hominem or not.

In my case, turning vegetarian wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be once I'd gathered the motivation, but veganism is kind of scary to me as I've always had trouble going for healthy food. However, I plan to give it a try one day - perhaps after college, perhaps much sooner, depending, amongst other things, on whether I can find a way to handle the high prices around here. Learning to cook would probably be a good first step, though.

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You make a good argument, Star Dust. I will be actively working against animal cruelty next year. Perhaps I should extend the campaign to advocate vegetarianism.

It is true that much of the arguments against vegetarianism tend to consist of "Stop taking it so seriously!" "Get over it!" "Stop forcing your beliefs on me!" It's like a sacred cultural thing - don't touch it or else. But I think most people just aren't conscious of how it works. Like slavery, it's normal, why question it, that's just uncomfortable. We don't want to think of ourselves as cruel people. We'd rather see ourselves as enlightened, altruistic and intelligent. Which, of course, is why we sneer at and ridicule any obvious evidence that challenges that belief.

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I was spitting meat out my mouth from the moment I was old enough to eat solids, my Mum would hide bits of chicken in my mash potato (when I was about three) and I would find it!

I told my parents when I was five that I would not eat meat, and being the stubborn so and so that I am, they gave in and accepted it.

Haha, same thing happened with me. Thought I was the only one to reject meat as an infant.

Anyways, I do eat fish occasionally, so I suppose that makes me a Pescetarian. However, the fish usually has to be fresh and of good quality and prepared in a way that I find favourable for me to eat it. That and I get extremely bored with it if I eat it more than like once a week.

As for the rest of meat, I've just never liked it, not for ethical reasons or whatnot, it just looks, smells, tastes and feels gross. And it sounds gross too if you slap one raw slice of meat up against another. Ugh. I'm not a fan of milk, either. It along with sour cream, cottage cheese, yogurt, and some cheeses (like bleu cheese) just plain gross me out. I'm alright with other cheeses (swiss, brie, sharp cheddars, gouda, parmigiano reggiano, asagio, etc), as well as ice cream if the flavor is good and if I'm in the mood for it. I am also rather fond of custards, though it uses milk. I guess my rule of thumb is: if it is a recipe that includes milk (especially if it is cooked), I am alright with the use of milk, but if the milk is on its own or simply added to something (like in cereal or coffee, etc), it's grody. In those instances, I usually just use unsweetened soy milk. I've also made mac & cheese using 24 month aged cheddar and soymilk, and it came out beautifully. Couldn't tell the difference, taste-wise.

On the veggie side, I've only come across two veggies I DO NOT like. Namely Swiss Chard and Brusselsprouts. I'm not that fond of asparagus, either, but when push comes to shove, I can deal with it, and I admit there are times when it is 'proper' to use asparagus, since it compliments certain foods. All other vegetables and culinary vegetables (but biologically fruit, such as the eggplant, etc) I am fast friends with. Unless someone cooked them wrong and spoiled them, which is unfortunately so often the case.

TL;DR

I'm basically a healthy eater by default. Meat and some milk products (and milk) gross me out.

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Born of Star Dust

^

This post. So much.

It always irks me when a vegetarian proudly proclaims that they don't try to "convert" people, implying that everyone who does things differently is simply a fanatic. I get that there's a lot of social pressure involved, but I still end up tearing my hair in frustration every time. I don't keep throwing my beliefs at people until they start screaming, but only because I don't think that would achieve anything. Rather, I gently bring the topic up now and then during a conversation, the exact manner depending on how well I know the person and what their views on the matter are.

I'm very much torn when it comes to organizations like PETA, though. On the one hand, they definitely raise awareness to some degree. On the other hand, they often use methods I don't agree with (like randomly putting up possibly triggering posters) and end up chasing a lot of people away by doing so. I wouldn't be inclined to listen to someone who happily causes me to have panic attacks, either, ad hominem or not.

In my case, turning vegetarian wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be once I'd gathered the motivation, but veganism is kind of scary to me as I've always had trouble going for healthy food. However, I plan to give it a try one day - perhaps after college, perhaps much sooner, depending, amongst other things, on whether I can find a way to handle the high prices around here. Learning to cook would probably be a good first step, though.

I think you seem to handle the situation quite well. People are much more likely to listen to someone who is well reasoned and kind, than someone who is yelling at them. I believe very much in standing up for what you believe in, but that doesn't mean that you have to hurt people to achieve your ends. Gandhi is an excellent example.

I know that somethings that I would do as an animal rights activist would not work for everyone. For instance, I would set free caged animals who were going to be slaughtered or used for lab experiments. I do not expect everyone to do this, because it is breaking the law and of great person risk for the people involved. The idea of stealing might also be morally shaky to some people. I do not consider it stealing, because I do not believe that animals are really people's property in the same way that slaves were not really people's property. A sentient being cannot be owned by someone else. However, I would NEVER risk a human's life (other than my own) to make a political statement. I would only ever carry out peaceful actions. I think it's nonsensical that some people are willing to kill to prove that killing is wrong. I think we must live by the ideaologies which we stand behind. One of the best ways, ultimately, are to have a reasonable argument with someone in which we, as kindly as possible, explain our views to someone else. And another way too, would be to rally together and make our voices heard.

I do not necessarily agree with everything that PETA does either. I think that when they throw paint/blood on people who are wearing fur that they are ultimately 1. Making the death of the animals seem as though it were even more in vain, because now not only has the animal died, but the human also does not have a coat (and might buy ANOTHER fur coat), and 2. the human will almost definitely have ill will towards animal rights activits in the future and not likely listen to their arguments. But PETA's basic philosophy and the visibility of their organization is something I can get behind.

I am not a vegan yet either. I am taking steps to make the transition easier on myself. For instance, once I learned that many products test on animals and use animal by-products (such as certain shampoo, soap, laundry detergent etc..) I decided to only use products which specifically state on the bottle that they do not test on animals. When I would make sandwiches I would only use a little bit of cheese, and would then only use it every other day, and then I only used it once a week, and now I don't use mayonnaise or cheese on my sandwiches at all. I joined a vegan club at my university, and I am learning many new recipes so the transition is becoming easier for me. When I live on my own, I will take the final steps, but because I live at home, I have decided to still eat things that contain cheese and eggs every once in a while. I know it seems scary, but as long as you go slowly, or rather, at a pace that works for you, then you will be able to do it. ^_^

You make a good argument, Star Dust. I will be actively working against animal cruelty next year. Perhaps I should extend the campaign to advocate vegetarianism.

It is true that much of the arguments against vegetarianism tend to consist of "Stop taking it so seriously!" "Get over it!" "Stop forcing your beliefs on me!" It's like a sacred cultural thing - don't touch it or else. But I think most people just aren't conscious of how it works. Like slavery, it's normal, why question it, that's just uncomfortable. We don't want to think of ourselves as cruel people. We'd rather see ourselves as enlightened, altruistic and intelligent. Which, of course, is why we sneer at and ridicule any obvious evidence that challenges that belief.

Thank you. And I think it's wonderful that you are working to against animal cruelty! I think you are completely correct in your assertion that people are afraid to view their behavior as anything but correct. Plato said that people never do anything that they truly believe is bad, otherwise they would not do it. In one way or another, people believe that what they are doing is the best thing to be doing, even if it is only good in the sense that it is good for themselves or the most attractive option in the moment.

The most wise of people are so because they never truly stop questioning themselves and the world around them

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  • 4 weeks later...
DancingDragon

I've been a vegan for about 5 years. I feel much better living this way. It can be a challenge at times, but its not nearly as difficult or restricting as some people think.

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Cows, pigs, deer, and sheep are intelligent enough that they can figure out what the heck a slaughterhosue is and that it's not a good place to be in. Chickens, turkeys, and fish don't really have that kind of awareness.

That's not true at all. I'm not sure about fish.... but I bet they know if something's trying to kill them.

Yeah it is. They don't have the kind of logic to figure out what exactly the cart that leads them to the slaughterhouse is. They don't have the part of their brain that can make them dread going there. Pretty much, they miss out on the psychological torture that a cow or sheep would feel. When they enter the slaughterhouse and see the dead and dying animals, then yeah, they probably figure it out, but it's way less fear and anticipation than a cow or pig would face. Some varieties of fish only have memory spans of 2 minutes. You can't tell me that something with that kind of memory span can realize that there's a giant net above their home that's going to scoop them up and toss them onto a truck. When they're on the truck, they don't realize that they're going to get cut up and pressed into cans or sold as sushi. This isn't Finding Nemo. Fish can't deduce things like that.

I don't mean logic. I mean sense that they are about to be harmed. Animals and chickens do. Fish I do

not know, but I would bet that they do too. I know from experience that fish can sense when you are

trying to help... so why not sense harm?

Please don't tell me you believe the 2 min myth.

Still, I have a hard time believing that a chicken can comprehend as much as a cow and feel as intense amounts of pain as a cow. Fish, I really don't know either. They may be able to sense harm, but I don't think they can really fear like larger animals can. I'd imagine that their minds are more like, "OH CRAP, THIS IS NOT NATURAL. TRY TO SWIM AWAY. /instinct" than real emotional fear that a mammal can feel.

And yes, I believe the 2-minute myth. I've never been told otherwise. Obviously it isn't true for all types of fish (salmon are actually really smart) but I don't see why it shouldn't be believed for smaller types of fish. Small brain=less matter=less memory. And some fish have reeeeeally tiny brains.

There's actually a pretty large body of research which demonstrates goldfish memory lasts a number of months and that they can in fact be conditioned and trained as other animals can. Brain size is not directly related to intelligence.

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