AVEN Vegetarians and Vegans

[Quelly]

This maybe of interest to those carrying the V-Card

http://blisstree.com/eat/8-foods-you-didnt-know-contained-meat/

[Jacqui]

I'm pretty much pescatarian. I eat poultry on occasion, though. I'd love to switch to only eating sustainable fish someday.

I'm very pro-keeping-meat-legal, though. Some people need to eat meat to live. Torturing humans to save animals is wrong to me, when you can just make farming more humane and everyone can be happy.

I don't know of anyone that needs to eat meat to live. I haven't eaten it in over 10 years and am very healthy

You=/=everyone. Some people with severe legume allergies, colitis, and certain autoimmune diseases can become deathly ill for months just because they ate a big bowl of fruit salad. They can set off a reaction just because they ate red peppers for dinner. When you can't have many vegetable-based products to provide you with protein, you can't really go vegetarian. Most people can get by just fine vegetarian. Some can even manage to live whole chunks of their lives completely vegan. But there are certain conditions (that really aren't as rare as you think) in which a person would die a slow, painful death if they went vegetarian.

My mom has Crohn's disease pretty severely. She's been in a malnutritioned state on-and-off for two years because she eats things that have too much fiber or too much soy without noticing. She tries to control her condition, but it's so severe and still uncured that even eating one wrong meal can set her off for days so badly that she can't even leave the house. If she could only eat vegetables, she'd die even faster. Even if her only source of protein is white fish, at least she wouldn't starve to death while her intestines deteriorate.

Tell me, doesn't that sound much worse than letting a few fishies live happy little lives in a pond and then quickly killing them for food for those who need it?

[asexual]

I'm pretty much pescatarian. I eat poultry on occasion, though. I'd love to switch to only eating sustainable fish someday.

I'm very pro-keeping-meat-legal, though. Some people need to eat meat to live. Torturing humans to save animals is wrong to me, when you can just make farming more humane and everyone can be happy.

I don't know of anyone that needs to eat meat to live. I haven't eaten it in over 10 years and am very healthy

You=/=everyone. Some people with severe legume allergies, colitis, and certain autoimmune diseases can become deathly ill for months just because they ate a big bowl of fruit salad. They can set off a reaction just because they ate red peppers for dinner. When you can't have many vegetable-based products to provide you with protein, you can't really go vegetarian. Most people can get by just fine vegetarian. Some can even manage to live whole chunks of their lives completely vegan. But there are certain conditions (that really aren't as rare as you think) in which a person would die a slow, painful death if they went vegetarian.

My mom has Crohn's disease pretty severely. She's been in a malnutritioned state on-and-off for two years because she eats things that have too much fiber or too much soy without noticing. She tries to control her condition, but it's so severe and still uncured that even eating one wrong meal can set her off for days so badly that she can't even leave the house. If she could only eat vegetables, she'd die even faster. Even if her only source of protein is white fish, at least she wouldn't starve to death while her intestines deteriorate.

Tell me, doesn't that sound much worse than letting a few fishies live happy little lives in a pond and then quickly killing them for food for those who need it?

True, there are many unhealthy people out there. Sorry to hear about your mother. I can't answer which is worse though. I guess it's subjective.

[Magoogle]

I first went pescetarian about a year and a half ago. As it was, meat was never my favorite food, and beef was really the only meat I enjoyed. Before that, I had sworn off leather and such since I see it as very wasteful and unnecessary. After learning more about all of the problems that the meat industry causes, I eventually came to the conclusion that I believed that was wasteful, too. I tried going without meat for a week; it was so easy, I never went back.

Now I consider myself lacto-ovo vegetarian. Sure, boycotting the meat industry and changing the world is possible, and it would be great if I could be a part of it. My primary reason for eating the way I do, however, is that I refuse to condone violence or murder. In modern society, it's not necessary to eat meat to survive, so why bother killing for it? It just strikes me as greedy to end a life, however "small," just to taste a certain taste.

[Jacqui]

I'm pretty much pescatarian. I eat poultry on occasion, though. I'd love to switch to only eating sustainable fish someday.

I'm very pro-keeping-meat-legal, though. Some people need to eat meat to live. Torturing humans to save animals is wrong to me, when you can just make farming more humane and everyone can be happy.

I don't know of anyone that needs to eat meat to live. I haven't eaten it in over 10 years and am very healthy

You=/=everyone. Some people with severe legume allergies, colitis, and certain autoimmune diseases can become deathly ill for months just because they ate a big bowl of fruit salad. They can set off a reaction just because they ate red peppers for dinner. When you can't have many vegetable-based products to provide you with protein, you can't really go vegetarian. Most people can get by just fine vegetarian. Some can even manage to live whole chunks of their lives completely vegan. But there are certain conditions (that really aren't as rare as you think) in which a person would die a slow, painful death if they went vegetarian.

My mom has Crohn's disease pretty severely. She's been in a malnutritioned state on-and-off for two years because she eats things that have too much fiber or too much soy without noticing. She tries to control her condition, but it's so severe and still uncured that even eating one wrong meal can set her off for days so badly that she can't even leave the house. If she could only eat vegetables, she'd die even faster. Even if her only source of protein is white fish, at least she wouldn't starve to death while her intestines deteriorate.

Tell me, doesn't that sound much worse than letting a few fishies live happy little lives in a pond and then quickly killing them for food for those who need it?

True, there are many unhealthy people out there. Sorry to hear about your mother. I can't answer which is worse though. I guess it's subjective.

Thanks. Yeah, she's in a few medicine trials. Hopefully one of them will work for her. It's just that I have a hard time justifying human suffering and death with something that in my opinion isn't so bad (as long as the animals are treated well and killed humanely).

I have huge problems with factory farming and would love to see major reform in agriculture. There's no reason why we should be getting food from corporations when local farmers are starving out, local economies suck, local animals are treated best, and the food is usually healthier. Thankfully, in my community, people are starting to realize this and are starting to shift towards using local-organic food, both animal and non-animal, which is a huge plus.

[oneofthesun]

I don't know of anyone that needs to eat meat to live. I haven't eaten it in over 10 years and am very healthy

When I took a nutrition class in college, we learned that there are racial differences in how food is processed depending on what a group of people historically ate. For example, because they've always had a good supply of either eggs or fish, white people can't convert Omega-6 into Omega-3 like some races can. Whites also can't absorb plant protein as well as others. Asians and (east) Indians can easily be healthy on a vegan diet: For whites, blacks, and especially Native Americans it's much harder. Some people speculate that the epidemic of obesity and diabetes among Native Americans is caused by the switch to a "white man's" diet, since before the Europeans arrived Natives ate very little carbs/sugar.

[gnowee]

The thing is...you're quite clearly not taking the whole picture into account.

Probably because I wasn't looking for a serious debate; just throwing in my half-thought-out two cents.

Just think about the vast and rising amount of 'cage free' and/or 'free range' chickens, turkeys, the increasing supply of alternative food supplies (i.e. vegan/vegetarian options in restaurants and schools and stores), et cetera.

I'd be careful with the term "free-range." It's akin to organic in that the farm only has to meet minimum requirements to slap a label on their product. "Organic" dairy cows are fed food that they don't naturally eat and can't naturally digest, but they're still certified as organic. A free-range animal only requires some access to the outside. Being a "free-range certified" chicken doesn't tell anyone anything about the animal's quality of life.

The reason large-scale farms practice factory farming is because it was once more efficient, cost-effective, disease-controlled, and allowed them to better regulate their product in general. That's obviously not the case today with the number of farms cutting corners to turn a profit that don't consider the public's health. Vegans and vegetarians are not the only ones protesting industrial farming practices. Concerned citizens don't want to worry about whether the eggs they buy at the grocery store are contaminated with salmonella. Vegans and vegetarians may have brought light to the issue but they are far from being the sole driving force behind reform. Farmers switch to free-range because the humane certification reduces their costs. In the end, it's business, not morals. If no one who ate meat gave a damn about poultry, pork, and beef, then the farmers wouldn't do anything about it.

As for vegetarian/vegan choices, as the number of vegetarians and vegans increases, the number of companies catering to them increases because it a new market and offers new profit.

Personally, I think the harm industrial farming does to the environment and to the farm workers is more imperative.

[debiguity]

I'm vegan for ethical reasons.

I can live, very healthy, without animal products. Animal products cause harm (environmental, social, and obviously, to the animals), and I'm anti-exploitation in general, so the obvious answer is to live without consuming animal products. Why cause unnecessary harm?

I volunteer at a farmed animal sanctuary every weekend. Most of the residents have been rescued from "small family farms" (small means about 2,000 cows, for example), from extreme neglect, abuse, and sometimes abandonment.

I am not on AVEN to do vegan outreach. I thought this thread was going to be for the vegans and vegetarians, honestly, and I'm disappointed that it is not! But outreach is what I do, a lot, so if anyone has questions or is interested in all of this, I'd be happy to talk about it in more detail. I don't see that in this thread, so I'm not going to spend the time.

But if you'd like to read some of what I've written I have a blog and contribute to another. My blog: http://invisiblevoices.wordpress.com/

and http://challengeoppression.com/ is a group blog I (sometimes) contribute to.

I'm not exactly a prolific blogger, but there you go.

[Avitus]

I've been vegetarian for the last six years and vegan for about the last two of those. My reasons for it are ethical.

Why cause unnecessary harm?

Nicely said.

[Rivan Vox]

*sigh* I'm vegan, haven been so for eight years (I'm fifteen), of my own volition.

I kinda dislike vegan culture, really.

I don't push my views on other people.

I wish people would be nice and not question mine.

[Professor T. Pollution]

The thing is...you're quite clearly not taking the whole picture into account.

Probably because I wasn't looking for a serious debate; just throwing in my half-thought-out two cents.

Just think about the vast and rising amount of 'cage free' and/or 'free range' chickens, turkeys, the increasing supply of alternative food supplies (i.e. vegan/vegetarian options in restaurants and schools and stores), et cetera.

I'd be careful with the term "free-range." It's akin to organic in that the farm only has to meet minimum requirements to slap a label on their product. "Organic" dairy cows are fed food that they don't naturally eat and can't naturally digest, but they're still certified as organic. A free-range animal only requires some access to the outside. Being a "free-range certified" chicken doesn't tell anyone anything about the animal's quality of life.

The reason large-scale farms practice factory farming is because it was once more efficient, cost-effective, disease-controlled, and allowed them to better regulate their product in general. That's obviously not the case today with the number of farms cutting corners to turn a profit that don't consider the public's health. Vegans and vegetarians are not the only ones protesting industrial farming practices. Concerned citizens don't want to worry about whether the eggs they buy at the grocery store are contaminated with salmonella. Vegans and vegetarians may have brought light to the issue but they are far from being the sole driving force behind reform. Farmers switch to free-range because the humane certification reduces their costs. In the end, it's business, not morals. If no one who ate meat gave a damn about poultry, pork, and beef, then the farmers wouldn't do anything about it.

As for vegetarian/vegan choices, as the number of vegetarians and vegans increases, the number of companies catering to them increases because it a new market and offers new profit.

Personally, I think the harm industrial farming does to the environment and to the farm workers is more imperative.

...Thank you? You very neatly strengthened my points. I agree with you on everything you just said. Of course businesses are not becoming ethical. They are seeking profits. But that doesn't change the fact that if we make ethical treatment of animals and of the environment more profitable, then positive change will occur. It's nothing to do with trying to get businesses to think morally, it's to do with trying to make it so that food companies have to switch to more sustainable methods if they want to make a profit.

Yes, being certified free-range tells me little about the animals' quality of life. But you're missing my entire point: it's a change, a first step, and it was brought about by consumers demanding that we move towards better treatment for animals (in this case). i.e. supply/demand does work. Just because we haven't achieved major change instantly doesn't mean that it won't work in the long term.

(You also assume that care for the animals' quality of life is my main reason for vegetarianism. It's not. I agree that the environmental devastation is more imperative. But that's not really the topic under discussion, so that's neither here nor there.)

[Synergy]

I agree with Valentine.

I'm vegan but I also don't enjoy vegan culture very much.

I've joined two vegan groups over the years and to be honest they were a complete nightmare.

:cake:

[Amedot]

This maybe of interest to those carrying the V-Card

http://blisstree.com/eat/8-foods-you-didnt-know-contained-meat/

Hey hey, that's not accurate. Beers (such as the lovely Guinness) and wines use animal products, yes, but they strain it and there is absolutely no trace of it in the actual product.

[Pandoren]

So what's the point in using it? And how can there be absolutely no trace?

And in any case, you might say that animal products were involved in the process of manufacture and therefore the product is not veg*n.

[Synergy]

It's only really UK beers that aren't vegan. Most U.S and European beers are fine.

[gnowee]

...Thank you? You very neatly strengthened my points. I agree with you on everything you just said. Of course businesses are not becoming ethical. They are seeking profits. But that doesn't change the fact that if we make ethical treatment of animals and of the environment more profitable, then positive change will occur. It's nothing to do with trying to get businesses to think morally, it's to do with trying to make it so that food companies have to switch to more sustainable methods if they want to make a profit.

Yes, being certified free-range tells me little about the animals' quality of life. But you're missing my entire point: it's a change, a first step, and it was brought about by consumers demanding that we move towards better treatment for animals (in this case). i.e. supply/demand does work. Just because we haven't achieved major change instantly doesn't mean that it won't work in the long term.

(You also assume that care for the animals' quality of life is my main reason for vegetarianism. It's not. I agree that the environmental devastation is more imperative. But that's not really the topic under discussion, so that's neither here nor there.)

Like I said, I wasn't looking for a debate and I wasn't serious about people stealing livestock. I think what I am really trying to say is that there has to be a better, more efficient way to go about agricultural reform than simply boycotting industrial farms. I don't disagree that changes are being made but the methods employed by organizations like PETA seem to do more harm than good for the issue because, at least on my campus, their activists only focus on the animal welfare issue and confront people with gory posters. It might be better outreaching to talk about the environmental damage caused by industrial farms and the health hazards posed to the local communities and consumers.

I'll be honest, my experience with vegans has always been of the "friends not food" persuasion. But it was presumptuous of me to believe that was your only motivation and for that I apologize. As this is a general discussion of why vegetarians and vegans have made those choices, I would like to hear more about your reasons excluding animal welfare.

[Professor T. Pollution]

I think what I am really trying to say is that there has to be a better, more efficient way to go about agricultural reform than simply boycotting industrial farms. I don't disagree that changes are being made but the methods employed by organizations like PETA seem to do more harm than good for the issue because, at least on my campus, their activists only focus on the animal welfare issue and confront people with gory posters. It might be better outreaching to talk about the environmental damage caused by industrial farms and the health hazards posed to the local communities and consumers.

I'll be honest, my experience with vegans has always been of the "friends not food" persuasion. But it was presumptuous of me to believe that was your only motivation and for that I apologize. As this is a general discussion of why vegetarians and vegans have made those choices, I would like to hear more about your reasons excluding animal welfare.

I agree with you, on all those points. But it also seems strange to me when people say, "But being veg*n doesn't do that much, so you should do other things instead!" Using "There are more effective methods" as an argument against veg*nism is frankly silly. Yes, there are. So...what's your point? That I should only do the "more effective" things and for some reason not be veg*n? Um...why not do both? You can boycott industrial farms and raise awareness/lobby/whatever else you think you can do to help.

And as to the "friends not food" and PETA type people...I think you'll find, or at least it's been my experience, that in any place where there are enough veg*ns for it to become an actual part of the culture of the area, 'friends not food' people are pretty rare. It's not a logically solid reason. Protesting eating animals because they are 'cute,' 'innocent,' 'need protection,' etc, seems to me to be a fairly juvenile and simple-minded motivation. While that's not a bad thing per se, it doesn't sway more people to become veg*n and it sure doesn't do much for the environment/future generations/the animals themselves. Animals eat other animals all the time. The difference is, we're wrecking our life support system (i.e. the current state of the Earth's ecosystems and climates) in order to get our fill of meat.

I am vegetarian because the industrial meat complex is a devastating practice for the current balance of the environment, and massively unhealthy for nearly every organism involved — I have no issue with the fact that meat comes from dead animals. In fact I'll eat meat if I know exactly where it's come from and I approve of their practices and all that, or if someone's about to throw it away. Or if it's human meat.

Of course, the Earth doesn't need saving. The Earth will be fine. Neither does life on Earth require saving. Life will go on, barring an unforseen and extreme catastrophe that wipes out all life in a short span of time. Whether they understand it or not, what people mean when they say we're "disrupting ecosystems," "destroying the planet", causing mass extinction, changing the climate for the worse, etc, is that we're changing the planet to something that humans will not be able to live on in our current form. If nothing improves about our rate of resource consumption/use of land/wasteful practices/etc, well, too bad. There have been huge extinctions and population bottlnecks before; there have been drastic climate changes. Every species will have to adapt or die off, and that's fine. The only reason humans are worried about it is because we don't want to have to change (or die).

[Avitus]

So what's the point in using it? And how can there be absolutely no trace?

And in any case, you might say that animal products were involved in the process of manufacture and therefore the product is not veg*n.

I think the difference here is between vegan and vegetarian. For instance, Guinness isn't vegan because animal products are used in its production (isinglass, which is used for fining), but it is vegetarian because at no point are those animal products consumed by someone drinking it: finings get removed. Incidentally, I think all beers made in accordance with the Reinheitsgebot ought to be vegan because of the way it limits the ingredients which can be used in their production: no fining with weird stuff.

[Melorian]

I have been lacto-ovo vegetarian for four years now. Soon I want to make the next step to becoming a complete vegetarian - no eggs, milk &c. I am not a vegetarian becuase I believe that I am making a difference to the way animals are treated, or by reducing their numbers, I am a vegetarian becuase I don't want to be associated with all that death and cruelty. It may still continue, but at least I can tell people that I am separate from it. And I fully believe that one day eating meat will be frowned upon - a bit like smoking and using plastic bags in supermarkets. It won't be banned but it won't be respected either.

I have been considering giving up milk ever since I found out that there is a company in England that wants to battery-farm cows. This seems so very very wrong to me. And even though I could buy free range milk, just by buying the milk I would be supporting the dairy industry that allows such things to happen. I have not given up eggs but I do not eat store-bought eggs. I only eat the eggs our neighbours bring, becuase I know what lives their chickens have. They are like pets. As I have a dog, - I feed her, walk her, &c and in return she guards my house when I am away. Or with horses - in return for everything you do for them they provide you with a service. It is the same with chickens. And I hope to have my own chickens one day.

But it is true what someone said earlier about justification. Anyone can justify anything if they really want to. I used to eat meat even though it killed me everything time I did. And I justified it for the longest time.

I can;t remember who said it but there is this very good quote:

'When faced with a conflict between their morality and their behaviour, most people would be willing to change their morality rather than their behaviour' I see this all the time. Lots of my friends feel guilty about eating meat (not becuase I make them lol) but they would rather change their feelings and justify eating meat, rather that put in the hard work and effort involved in giving up something they love. This is true of a lot of morality/behaviour conflicts - not just meat eating.

[oneofthesun]

OK, could we please just get over this misconception that being an ovo-lacto vegetarian is better for animals?? It is worse! Egg chickens and dairy cows suffer much more than animals raised for meat ever will. Do some research.

[asexual]

OK, could we please just get over this misconception that being an ovo-lacto vegetarian is better for animals?? It is worse! Egg chickens and dairy cows suffer much more than animals raised for meat ever will. Do some research.

now now. Doing something is better than nothing at all.

[Synergy]

I can understand being a carnivore and I can understand being vegan but what I can't understand is the "I eat eggs and milk and fish and white meat but not red meat and I wear leather therefore I am a vegetarian" school of thought. It just seems so pointless.

There is an industry that uses animals for food. It seems to me that If you use any of the products of that industry you can't be a vegetarian.

Actually, I know a woman who identifies as vegan but who wears wool jumpers and leather shoes. I asked her about it and she told me that she just does the diet part of veganism for her health.

Not that I'm bothered..most of my friends are carnivores and it's of no interest to me. They can make their own decisions. I'm no evangelist and would never try to convert them.

[oneofthesun]

now now. Doing something is better than nothing at all.

So being responsible for more cruelty is better than being responsible for less cruelty?? OK...

[Melorian]

For me, being a lacto-ove vegetarian is just a step on the journey to becoming a full vegetarian. Besides I know full well that I am not supporting MORE creulty by eating eggs and drinking milk. I never buy storebought eggs, I eat eggs given from neighbours. I know they have a good life. I am more iffy about milk. I buy vegan butter and cheese and am currently in the process of finding a fake milk that I can stomach. In the meantime I research the milk I buy and get the best option - usually the most expensive, but I think its worth spending more money to gfeel good about what you eat. Cows in England are at the moment generally treated pretty well - on my local farms anyway (which is where my milk comes from). It's not unless they introduce battery farming cows here will I rush into giving up milk.

[Synergy]

When my parents became vegetarian in the 1970s I noticed that their meals didn't really alter in structure or appearance. They went from meat and two veg to meat substitute with two veg. After a few years they loosened up and stopped looking for substitutes.

I was the same when I first went vegan; I was forever looking for egg substitutes and milk substitutes.

Eventually I calmed down and these days I don't use any substitutes for anything apart from coffee.

I drink my caro or rooibos teas black. I don't use margerine of any sort. I don't buy fakin' bacon, cheatin' ham or cheezley or any of the many products available.

I can understand that the structure and style of our meals is hard-wired into us from childhood and we often feel a need to continue with the same-looking meals even after we become vegan or vegetarian.

Vegans can sometimes be the same with leather and fur..seeking identical alternatives when there's really no need other than the conventions of society.

Once we learn a few recipes, things hopefully get easier..I like making a nice 3-bean chilli with gram flour pancakes or a tofu curry with brown rice.

[CreepyCrawler]

I've been a vegan for about 12 years though occasionally I do consume eggs/cheese if, for instance, I order something from a restaurant and it happens to have some on it I'll eat it. Just would be a waste to send it back, since they'll just toss it.

Can't be so reasonable about meat though. It makes me ill to eat. Because unless I were to kill it and prepare it myself, there's no way of knowing if it got poo on it or not. Meat just seems much more unsanitary in general.

But yes, I chose veganism because I like animals and my brother convinced me. I just can't support in any way killing or harming them, especially if there's not a good reason for it.

However, I also think that "because they're cute" is a perfectly valid reason for not eating something. And so is "because it's butt-ugly", as in the case of lobsters. Though personally I find lobsters to be intriguing and beautiful.

And I think "friends not food" is a perfectly valid and useful motto. Before that came along I was biting my friends left and right.

Really though, can someone tell me what's so wrong with the argument "I'm friends with animals, therefore I'm not going to eat them"? Seems perfectly sound and logical to me.

As far as the ovo-lacto veggies go...I think you have to support the effort, because it shows a change in thinking. Aaand, I think going from consuming meat, eggs and dairy to consuming eggs and dairy is actually less suffering going on. Unless they somehow manage to replace all the meat they would have eaten with eggs/dairy...(Mmmm, I love having egg for every meal! It's like breakfast over and over and over again! Cheeseblock "steak"? My favorite!)

Of course, the Earth doesn't need saving. The Earth will be fine. Neither does life on Earth require saving. Life will go on, barring an unforseen and extreme catastrophe that wipes out all life in a short span of time.

Bacteria has been around a long time before we got here, and it'll be around long after we're gone. I take comfort in that. :)

[Jacqui]

I can understand being a carnivore and I can understand being vegan but what I can't understand is the "I eat eggs and milk and fish and white meat but not red meat and I wear leather therefore I am a vegetarian" school of thought. It just seems so pointless.

There is an industry that uses animals for food. It seems to me that If you use any of the products of that industry you can't be a vegetarian.

Actually, I know a woman who identifies as vegan but who wears wool jumpers and leather shoes. I asked her about it and she told me that she just does the diet part of veganism for her health.

Not that I'm bothered..most of my friends are carnivores and it's of no interest to me. They can make their own decisions. I'm no evangelist and would never try to convert them.

Cows, pigs, deer, and sheep are intelligent enough that they can figure out what the heck a slaughterhosue is and that it's not a good place to be in. Chickens, turkeys, and fish don't really have that kind of awareness. I don't get the leather thing, though. Especially since there are so many realistic faux-leathers out there. Wool from smaller farms where the animals aren't killed or mistreated doesn't harm an animal in any way. (The same can't be said for the sheep used to make those cashmere sweaters you can get at Macy's, though.)

[Jacqui]

OK, could we please just get over this misconception that being an ovo-lacto vegetarian is better for animals?? It is worse! Egg chickens and dairy cows suffer much more than animals raised for meat ever will. Do some research.

One of my friends has goats and chickens at his house and sells the goat milk and the fresh eggs. The animals aren't mistreated at all. They aren't stuffed full of hormones or kept in tiny little crates. Yes, eating milk and eggs from corporations is bad for the animals, and probably is worse to them than eating meat from a small-town farm, but if you look at eating meat from a smaller farm and eating dairy/eggs from a smaller farm, just eating dairy and eggs is usually better for the animals.

[Synergy]

I've been a vegan for about 12 years though occasionally I do consume eggs/cheese if, for instance, I order something from a restaurant and it happens to have some on it I'll eat it. Just would be a waste to send it back, since they'll just toss it.

I've kind of done similar things. A friend made my supper a while back and it was a meat pie. I just ate it because my not eating it doesn't bring the animal back to life. It didn't do me any harm and it didn't affect my veganism one bit.

I've often thought that veganism is really the struggle to prevent the death of animals.

Once the animal is dead, that particular wee battle has been lost, so I'm kind of ambivalent about people eating the meat.

If I took part in a protest to prevent the chopping down of a beautiful tree and the protest failed, should I then refuse to use some of the wood to light a fire or make a shelf?

It also strikes me that many vegans I meet act as if they are alleric to meat, refusing to share a saucepan with a meat eater in case it is contaminated with 2 atoms of meat.

Meat isn't really the issue...preventing the creation of more meat is.

[asexual]

Cows, pigs, deer, and sheep are intelligent enough that they can figure out what the heck a slaughterhosue is and that it's not a good place to be in. Chickens, turkeys, and fish don't really have that kind of awareness.

That's not true at all. I'm not sure about fish.... but I bet they know if something's trying to kill them.