AVEN Vegetarians and Vegans

[Radioactive Goat]

Just a choice, really.

[bethechange]

a good article!

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/environment/article/0,28804,1602354_1603074_1603171,00.html

[Maiandra HW]

What provoked me to take the plunge: One day, after a discussion about the ethics of war in AP US History class in 10th grade, I went home and made a list of what I thought were acceptable excuses to kill. I started to write that it was okay to kill animals for food, but then I asked myself, "Why?" and the only reasons I could come up with were that the things I was killing "weren't human," and that I liked the taste of meat. I decided I didn't think these were good enough reasons to end consciousnesses. I've been vegetarian ever since.

Not what ultimately provoked me, but: I strongly object to the way we treat factory farm animals--not even the killing, just the living conditions *shudders*... it's torture--and the reality is that over 99% of the animals we produce for food come from factory farms. I also think the environmental arguments in favor of vegetarianism are compelling.

EDIT: Caution: The following is a ridiculously long tangent that has very little to do with the question posed in this thread, other than that it relates to vegetarian and vegan issues. For that, I apologize; I promise I did not intend for this to happen. However, I spent over half an hour writing it and it's a rant that's been building for quite some time and by golly, it's going to be posted. So, if you're interested...

I'm also struggling with trying to decide if and on how regular of a basis I should be vegan. Part of the problem is I think being vegetarian--for me, at least--is a moral imperative, whereas being vegan is more subjective. Basically, I think that my eating meat will always be wrong, since I don't need to do so to survive due to my availability of vegetarian resources, whereas I don't think eating animal products that don't involve killing the animals is necessarily wrong, so long as the animals aren't tortured to obtain them. Of course, I have to realize that the animal products I consume do likely come from tortured animals, which means I should probably be vegan, from a moral standpoint. But... first of all, I'm not as good of an eater as I should be. I'd need to establish much more healthy eating habits before I'd dare attempt veganism, and even if I did, I'm still worried that I would do long-term damage to my body. And second, I love dairy products. Not so much eggs, but... gah, cheese! Ice cream! Real chocolate with real milk! These foods make me understand why more people aren't vegetarian; I could argue morals all day long, and maybe I could convince people intellectually that eating meat is wrong. But... when I think about not eating cheese, or ice cream, or real chocolate for the rest of my life, I just get so... sad, for want of a better term. Rationally, I would love to be vegan, but instinctively, I want to keep eating my favorite foods, and I resist the idea of giving them up. And I realize that meat is probably like that for a lot of people, even if it isn't for me. So, yeah... not sure where I'm going with this or how this LONG tangent relates to the thread, but I'll finish it off by saying that I think if we want to significantly reduce the exploitation of animals, we need to 1) pass new, stronger animal welfare laws for livestock and actually ENFORCE them, 2) decrease the centrality of meat in our culture while presenting more vegetarian alternatives in the media, restaurants, grocery chains, cooking shows, etc., 3) decrease subsidies for livestock production (US), and 4) invest in the development of test-tube-grown meat. Seriously. Because as much as I would like such to be the case, I honestly don't believe people will stop eating meat anytime soon. I do think, however, that the public could eventually latch onto the idea of eating test-tube meat, especially once the technology is far along enough that the price makes it competitive with traditional meat.

[snail INFP]

I am a vegan because I refuse to contribute to an industry that tortures animals and violates their basic rights. I am a proponent of the Kantian categorical imperative. Quite simply, I do not eat animal products because I feel that respecting animals should be a universal practice, and I feel that enslaving them and murdering them is an atrocity that increases the amount of suffering in the world.

I have never liked meat. I grew up on a small family farm where I helped raise the animals and was present when they were killed. I wouldn't eat them because they were like pets to me, although at that time, I still occasionally ate meat from animals I didn't help raise. At some point during my adulthood, I saw some art by Sue Coe and it touched my conscience in a very personal way. That was when I gave up the few meat items I still consumed, which were already quite limited because I was only eating a few specific meats that I didn't associate with the murder of my childhood pets, such as jerky, smoked salmon, and dry salami. Those were very easy to give up.

I only recently became a vegan because the first time I tried, I only made it three months when my recurring dreams about cheese caused me to fail. (I still have dreams about cheese, but I am determined not to be tempted by them this time.) Cheese was always my favorite food, so giving it up, knowing that there was no adequate substitute and that I would never get to eat any of the foods I liked again, was a really hard thing for me to do. I had a taste for exotic cheeses. I liked every kind I could find that didn't have animal rennet in it, except for the yucky processed ones, and it was my opinion that how good something tasted was entirely dependent on how much cheese it had in it. :( The only vegan cheese substitute I can find tastes weird and has a horrible texture. There are a few popular fake cheeses that taste identical to gross American cheese (one of the only cheeses I strongly dislike,) but they all have milk protein in them, which would make them completely pointless even if they didn't have the consistency of molten plastic.

Besides being hard because of denying one of the greatest forms of sensory pleasure I was able to experience, becoming a vegan was a very unpopular decision that affected my social life. My friends and family do not approve at all, and I tend to avoid telling people unless it is absolutely necessary. It feels good admitting it here, but I have become conditioned to expect conflict at the slightest mention of it. I frequently feel alienated in real life because the people around me see it as a form of inconvenient pickiness and feel defensive at the very thought of my being morally opposed to something they do on a regular basis. The truth is that I am morally opposed to a lot of very common things that they wouldn't ever imagine anyone caring about, so if they knew what it was like to be in my head, they would probably find plenty of better reasons to feel judged. If they really knew me, however, they would know that I believe it is unreasonable to expect perfection. I'm generally pretty easygoing about it unless someone else picks a fight.

[snail INFP]

I just noticed the debate about plants being self-aware, and I would like to say that even if a person were to believe that plants had spirits, or some form of consciousness that wasn't dependent on the possession of a central nervous system, such a person would still be a hypocrite if s/he were to use that information to promote harming animals. Those who knowingly contribute to the suffering of animals, which are built in such a way that they are capable of experiencing pain and fear, would be silly to lecture vegans on how inhumane it is to hurt plants, because if such people truly cared enough to be upset with vegans for hurting plants, they wouldn't be trying to justify killing anything. They certainly wouldn't promote eating animals, which is a practice that contributes to the suffering of far more plants than direct consumption. (The animals that are raised for food eat plants.) A person who cared about the well-being of living things, and who believed that plants had a natural right to live, would be a fruitarian, in order to set a more fitting example.

Whenever someone tries to justify eating animals by claiming to care about plants, it always comes across as though they were saying, "We can't refute your claims that we are doing something bad, but you vegans are bad too. Therefore, have empathy for our cruelty instead of judging us. Being pure is impossible, so let's pretend there is no point in attempting to minimize the negative impact of our actions." It seems like a defensive stance that has nothing to do with trying to avoid being harmful. Even if being completely harmless isn't an option, I feel that it is still best to be as close to harmless as we know how to be.

Be honest with yourself, and do what your conscience dictates. I will do the same according to my own conscience, and maybe somehow in the process, we can avoid competing for the privilege of labeling someone else evil enough to remove the very important burden we feel when we are sensitive to our own imperfections.

[The Chaos Heart]

I just noticed the debate about plants being self-aware, and I would like to say that even if a person were to believe that plants had spirits, or some form of consciousness that wasn't dependent on the possession of a central nervous system, such a person would still be a hypocrite if s/he were to use that information to promote harming animals.

...I'm being accused of being a hypocrite...

Huh...that's new...

Well, regardless, this is still fallacy. I would only be a hypocrite if I were citing plants feeling pain to support meat eating if my argument were one of doing away with suffering...which it isn't. Rather, my argument is simple: Even vegetarians and vegans inflict pain and suffering onto things they must eat in order to survive. It's unavoidable. It's how life works. For life to exist, life must perish. Pain will beget pleasure and longevity for another. And certain animals are no more alive and aware than plants. So to take a moralistic stance on carnivorous behavior is incredibly silly.

Those who knowingly contribute to the suffering of animals, which are built in such a way that they are capable of experiencing pain and fear, would be silly to lecture vegans on how inhumane it is to hurt plants, because if such people truly cared enough to be upset with vegans for hurting plants, they wouldn't be trying to justify killing anything.

Then how would anyone live?

They certainly wouldn't promote eating animals, which is a practice that contributes to the suffering of far more plants than direct consumption. (The animals that are raised for food eat plants.) A person who cared about the well-being of living things, and who believed that plants had a natural right to live, would be a fruitarian, in order to set a more fitting example.

...Fruits are just another kind of plant...you know this, correct? To differentiate between "plant" and "fruit" in this case is...well it doesn't work.

I suspect what you were trying to differentiate between were vegetables ( particular kind of plant) and fruits (another particular kind of plant). But...they're both plants. So to try and say one has a moral high ground in this case is folly.

I feel that it is still best to be as close to harmless as we know how to be.

Nothing is going to stop animals from eating plants you know if human beings stopped eating animals. And before you say "Well, there'd be less animals though because they'd be in less demand"...that's not an argument against meat eating. That's an argument about the current size of the population. If every person on the planet only ate vegetables, I suspect I could very easily level that same argument. "Oh, we're producing too many plants for the sole purpose of just killing and eating them. We need to eat only meat! To protect the plants!" Arguments about corporate practices or the size of the population, and by relation, it's demand for food, have no relevance to a debate about the morality of meat eating vs. non-meat eating.

Also, the pain the meal in question feels is also by and large irrelevant. By which I mean, trying to say "Oh, well plants feel less than an animal" is folly. Because intensity of pain and fear is entirely subjective.

My end point being, there is no morality about vegetarianism/veganism. It's simply what it is; a lifestyle choice. It is no better, or worse, than meat eating. The only moralistic argument one could possibly make in regards to meat eating would have to be about what kind of animals would be immoral to eat. In which case, I believe it comes down to self-awareness.

But to make an argument on the whole of meat eating? That is fallacy.

[Safara]

^^ ( referring to middle part of above post - too long to edit quote) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd always thought that fruitarians only ate things that had already fallen off the plant? Ripe, fallen fruit and the like, so that the living plant is not disturbed.

[The Chaos Heart]

Some may or may not do that, but nothing about frutarianism denotes it.

[Tiffa]

I've been happily vegan for about 4 years now, since I was 13. Before that I hadn't eaten meat since I was 8. I stopped eating meat simply because of what it was.. I didn't want animals to die, I loved animals. I've always been around animals, more specifically ALOT of cats and several dogs, fish, a hamster... Even the neighboring cows would break into our yard every now and then. :P

Most people probably wouldn't believe me but I do still remember the taste of meat, I remember alot from my childhood as it feels like it was just yesterday. And back then I loved meat, was like most people and I thought it was just fucking delicious. Also I was a HUGE cheese addict, I had it on nearly everything! I remember at one point thinking all vegans ate were beans and twigs. I think the tipping point that made me go vegan was at 13 when I found out what gelatin is. I had been eating it all the time in my cereal and other things, ugh. After that I started figuring out more about all the little nasty animal products that were in my food. Like many people cheese was the hardest thing to give up, but the cravings go away and then the thought of eating that just disgusts you pretty much and you learn that the food is so much better on the other side am I right vegheads? :P And by the way I'm glad they're improving vegan cheeses since that will probably be a huge step forward once it's pleasing to the majority and help many people to transition, like faux meats do for some people at first. Anyway, I've been vegan ever since and the food is great, it makes you feel great, and it was honestly one of the best decisions of my entire life. :)

I am still trying to eat healthier though, because I never have. So yes, there are junk food vegans as veganism in no way automatically equals healthy. Cake is no less tempting when it's dairy free. ;)

[snail INFP]

@The Chaos Heart, when I mentioned fruitarianism, I was referring to the practice of eating only foods that can be harvested without killing the plants. I apologize for any confusion. I was unaware that the word was sometimes used to mean other things.

You make some good points about the level of awareness not being indicative of a living thing's right to survive. If one were to make that kind of distinction, then cannibalizing a person could be considered acceptable under conditions where the person was disabled in a way that made him/her incapable of self-awareness, as would the consumption of infants and fetuses. There is something unsettling about the idea of determining something's right to live according to its level of sentience.

I definitely think we ought to strive to minimize harm, but you are right to question our methods for measuring harm, since suffering is something each individual experiences uniquely. It is something which cannot be expressed with perfect accuracy, and some living things are more likely to cry out when harmed than others, depending on whether doing so is more likely to bring help or call predators. Plants, which cannot move around easily in order to come to each other's aid, would have no reason to express pain even if they experienced it, so it is difficult to determine how they feel. I suppose my best answer to that is to say that when someone or something seems to be suffering in an obvious way, we should take that as evidence that we are violating its right not to be harmed, but then we become more or less likely to harm a living thing according to its level of expressiveness, which is just one more layer of difficulty.

We can only be expected to act according to our level of perception. A person who doesn't know s/he is causing harm cannot reasonably know that s/he ought to stop causing it. Whenever we suspect that we are probably causing harm, I think it is our duty to stop causing harm if doing so is possible.

The issue of whether plants have equal rights to animals is complex, but regardless of our answer, it should not lead to a defeatist attitude in which the realization of such complexity causes a person to stop trying to minimize harm altogether.

[SSRIs Fail]

I don't consciously try to eat healthy but I seem to be, and my protein levels are very high. I do eat a lot of eggs though.

I was buying only free run eggs until I found out that's basically a scam... Just because the chickens aren't in individual cages doesn't mean they're well looked after. It doesn't take much for a producer to earn the "free run" label. Organic and from a small local farm is the only way to go.

Yeah that pretty much horrified me when I found out.

[symmetry9]

I've been vegan for 6 years now. Ever since I was very young I've felt it's against my values to eat meat (or anything really);so I decided to choose the least harmful option. I wish I had done it earlier..

Oh and I don't believe you can really say you're a vegetarian if you sometimes eat meat. You surely mean 'flexitarian'..But definitely not vegetarian..