TransWhatevers of AVEN

[Strange-quark]

2 hours ago, Celyn said:

Yeah they seemed either very stereotypical or have absolutely no connection to gender as far as I know...but then I don't understand gender so...

You and me both... But maybe it was more about culture (versus actual gender identity)... some people talk about 'gender performance' but idk what that even means honestly. 

[Custard Cream]

4 hours ago, Celyn said:

Yeah they seemed either very stereotypical or have absolutely no connection to gender as far as I know...but then I don't understand gender so...

Glad I'm not the only one who has no idea about gender... 

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Masculinity 

 109

Femininity 

 81

 

Well I was right, on the male side, lol. I think the fact I'm now dreading someone beating me in masculinity proves I am indeed, a bloke.

[Custard Cream]

8 hours ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Masculinity 

 109

Femininity 

 81

 

Well I was right, on the male side, lol. I think the fact I'm now dreading someone beating me in masculinity proves I am indeed, a bloke.

Sounds about right!

[PoeciMeta]

12 hours ago, Custard Cream said:

Glad I'm not the only one who has no idea about gender... 

Makes four of us~

 

I should try this test just for fun... I'm getting curious about these people's idea of gender~

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

I took so long to admit how transphobic my family were...mum being a fake ally but in retrospect keeping me closeted around other family/friends, dad saying the most bigoted things. I once brought up some trans stuff(definitely not surgery related most likely just me trying to bring up my pronouns which he didn't use) and he started talking about this colleague he had who had grs, talking about how painful it was, misgendering her the entire time claiming she regretted it.

[no-longer-in-use]

 

The questions seemed pretty arbitrary to me.

[Kimmie.]

Maybe TMI

Spoiler

Someday I want to be able wear a bikini without looking ridiculous. But I guess I am to old now for that to ever happen.

 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

Too much shit coming up in my life, so tired of responding to people's advice as if they have any idea what it's like.

[Janus the Fox]

Responses are going to be mixed, even discussing transition themes off aven can mean being accused of trolling, trans elitism, ridicule, disbelief, or being called out as an attention seeking narcissist doing it for the thrill of a fetish or sexual motivation.  AVENs pretty safe compared.  

[Fluffy Femme Guy]

On 1/8/2020 at 10:14 AM, Starbogen said:

Hmm so this might sound weird and like it makes no sense but does anyone else ever feel like.. you're technically a binary trans person but if you had been cis you would have identified with the term "cis-genderless"? So it's like you care about gender stuff, but only because you have dysphoria (particularly body dysphoria) but you don't actually feel a strong connection to gender otherwise? 

Yeah, my experience is similar.
I'm an AMAB and not sure if I really have a gender, but would much rather be 'read' (perceived) as 'female' and treated accordingly.
I also greatly prefer feminine and androgynous presentation to neutral or masc.

I know presentation in line with a certain gender does not MAKE one that gender, buy my reasons for doing it are because I like how it looks, and it is certainly NOT 'manly'.
It is a visual expression of my rejection of masculinity.

I'm not sure what I am, but I'm certainly not a man an I don't want to look like one.

[nerdperson777]

On 1/10/2020 at 11:17 AM, Celyn said:

https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/OSRI/

This is an interesting "masculinity/femininity" test because it comes from a place of encouraging both in everyone, which fills my lil enby heart with joy.

 

Yep, that's my gender.

 

(Though some of the questions were weird. What does drying in or out of the shower have to do with gender? I always step out first, there's not enough room to do it in the shower. Right? Am I missing some secret shower routine knowledge?)

Seems pretty accurate to me.  Lately I've been kind of gender apathetic so I like undifferentiated.

 

On 1/10/2020 at 12:52 PM, Andrea KF said:

Rather silly questions, but well, quite fun 😀

 

I'm

Masculinity: 91

Femininity: 93

 

"undifferentiated", whatever that means.

I would guess undifferentiated falls into agender territory or similar.  Androgynous is "both" male and female, usually in a 50/50 ratio.  So that's strong gender leanings.  Then undifferentiated must be lower amounts of gender leanings.

 

I've been noticing that one of my DnD characters is actually agender rather than simply non-binary.  They are a charlatan bard and to be gender is merely a disguise/performance to put on.  They just use people's assumption of gender to their advantage.  In the two games I've been playing, my characters have had long hair.  I started thinking that my old thoughts have returned.  When I was questioning, I had a costume that was a crossdressing girl.  She still had long enough hair that people would notice there was a bun in the back and hair overflowed at the top to look like it fell off the side.  So I imagined that my bard had the same hair, so it'd be easy to change into different gendered disguises.  Suddenly I'm having all these feelings about this character again.  I feel like I'm validating my old feelings.  I've been really wanting to try a long hair wig lately because of my characters, but it may just be in theory, because wigs are such pains to wear.

[nerdperson777]

I'm having a thought here.

 

Gender labels over time

March/April 2014 - September/Late 2014: FtM, trans guy, totally binary

December 2014 - May/June 2015: Androgynous FtM, Transmasculine

For the next year or two: just Transmasculine

Some day or three days back in first half of 2017: Non-binary?  was dysphoric about being called sir.

Sometime in 2018, probably the latter half: Non-binary and Transmasculine, because I needed to account for the femininity I was feeling after being comfortable with myself on T.

Up until now: Gender apathetic, does gender really matter?  Let's just do what we like.  Still using Non-binary and Transmasculine for same reasons, as transmasculine accounted for my gender expression.

 

I've changed my gender so many times, am I actually genderfluid?  I used bigender for when I had non-binary and transmasculine.  Genderfluid was more than one gender so I count bigender as being genderfluid without specifically labeling how many genders.  With my new agender DnD character, I might be part agender now too because of all the meh around gender.

[Starbogen]

35 minutes ago, nerdperson777 said:

I'm having a thought here.

 

Gender labels over time

March/April 2014 - September/Late 2014: FtM, trans guy, totally binary

December 2014 - May/June 2015: Androgynous FtM, Transmasculine

For the next year or two: just Transmasculine

Some day or three days back in first half of 2017: Non-binary?  was dysphoric about being called sir.

Sometime in 2018, probably the latter half: Non-binary and Transmasculine, because I needed to account for the femininity I was feeling after being comfortable with myself on T.

Up until now: Gender apathetic, does gender really matter?  Let's just do what we like.  Still using Non-binary and Transmasculine for same reasons, as transmasculine accounted for my gender expression.

 

I've changed my gender so many times, am I actually genderfluid?  I used bigender for when I had non-binary and transmasculine.  Genderfluid was more than one gender so I count bigender as being genderfluid without specifically labeling how many genders.  With my new agender DnD character, I might be part agender now too because of all the meh around gender.

I mean... of course only you can know how you feel and what it means but it looks like there's a distinct pattern of feeling more and more meh about gender the more comfortable you've become as you transitioned? So idk, if that happened to me I would interpret it as that I was actually more nonbinary/agender than I had thought all along and was just now discovering it.

 

I have actually had a similar-ish experience but sort of in reverse.. When I first started questioning my gender and stopped thinking of myself as female I identified as gender neutral for a while because I didn't "feel" like male or female. But then I realized binary people don't necessarily have an innate sense of gender like that and I prefered being seen as male so then identified as totally binary and have stayed like that since. But now four years later I've been feeling more genderqueer and neutral again like I did at first.. I still identify as binary but also genderqueer. The way I see it at least I think of those changes more as me letting myself explore and acknowledge or not explore and acknowledge some aspects of my gender at certain times based on how confident and comfortable I was with myself. So like when I was just starting to question it felt safer to go from nonbinary to male than straight to male, later once I got to experience what passing as male felt like I was really worried and insecure about losing that so I leaned more into the total binariness, but now that it's been years and I've settled into my gender as well as I could while still pre-T I feel more free to recognize and embrace that not-totally-binary part of myself. 

 

I guess I see genderfluidity more as switching back and forth between genders, while this just looks like a straight progression from one side of a spectrum to the other. But yeah you could still be genderfluid if you think that fits more.

 

[nerdperson777]

3 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

I mean... of course only you can know how you feel and what it means but it looks like there's a distinct pattern of feeling more and more meh about gender the more comfortable you've become as you transitioned? So idk, if that happened to me I would interpret it as that I was actually more nonbinary/agender than I had thought all along and was just now discovering it.

 

I have actually had a similar-ish experience but sort of in reverse.. When I first started questioning my gender and stopped thinking of myself as female I identified as gender neutral for a while because I didn't "feel" like male or female. But then I realized binary people don't necessarily have an innate sense of gender like that and I prefered being seen as male so then identified as totally binary and have stayed like that since. But now four years later I've been feeling more genderqueer and neutral again like I did at first.. I still identify as binary but also genderqueer. The way I see it at least I think of those changes more as me letting myself explore and acknowledge or not explore and acknowledge some aspects of my gender at certain times based on how confident and comfortable I was with myself. So like when I was just starting to question it felt safer to go from nonbinary to male than straight to male, later once I got to experience what passing as male felt like I was really worried and insecure about losing that so I leaned more into the total binariness, but now that it's been years and I've settled into my gender as well as I could while still pre-T I feel more free to recognize and embrace that not-totally-binary part of myself. 

 

I guess I see genderfluidity more as switching back and forth between genders, while this just looks like a straight progression from one side of a spectrum to the other. But yeah you could still be genderfluid if you think that fits more.

 

Well I guess over time I realize that people are obsessed with gender and I don't get why people have to gender things that really don't need gender.  For my group, I was supposed to find an anime costume that a bunch of kids were to wear.  The seller that I was linked was supposed to be back by the 31st but then later it said another 2 weeks so I had to find another seller.  I found one that said "material: feminine".  If material can be feminine, might as well call all material as such, if it's stereotypically a feminine hobby.

 

I took it like many people who just find that it's better to be seen as the "opposite" to not be misgendered.  But then there's also people like my roommate.  They're non-binary and wear men's clothing, but still considers themselves sapphic and butch.  They would still rather be female than male given a binary.  My mom would try to get me to wear lotion or use face wash and justify it with that it's neutral and not feminine so I would use it.  I already used a lot of neutral things growing up so it's not that much of a change.

 

Genderfluidity is changing genders, yes.  But I've heard that the time between changes can be anything.  It could be a minute, an hour, a day, a year, a decade.  So basically mine changed every two years or one and a half?  My voice also changes with how feminine I feel at a given time.

[Bloc]

I am lying awake in bed and need to get this off my chest. So I apologise if it will be incoherent rambling.

 

I have the knowledge that I am a feminine being. I don't know where this comes from, it just feels correct. I would probably be better connected to my body if it had a vulva and a vagina instead of a penis and also having breasts would feel right. However being called a woman feels more like a verdict to me than a promise. It feels like being forced into rigid expectations like being called a man. I'm not sure if this is internalized misogyny or me being non-binary. I can't connect on a personal level with people who see me as a man. It feels like I have to play an act for them. On a professional level I can play this act, but this will never be a genuine connection.

 

I believe part of what keeps me from medical transition and more social transition is the fear to be put again into box and having to perform womanhood instead of manhood. Another part is the fear of social exclusion just for being trans and always having to explain being non-binary. It feels like both being seen as a man and being seen as a woman would be like a cage to me. Living in a society with a binary view of gender, which only got a few cracks recently, does not help. I would like to widen these cracks to make it easier for others but I don't feel like I have the energy or power to do so.

 

I hope I can write soon write more uplifting stuff.

[anisotrophic]

@Bloc ❤️ I talked to an AMAB NB friend as they came out more, it's really tough. They had the support of their partner, and were rejected hard by family. (On the other hand, my family seemed accepting until I took the step of hormonal transition; maybe for an AFAB people seem to react well because they don't take it seriously.) I can only try to imagine how hard it is for AMAB folks.

 

I think... it sounds like you'd benefit from trying hormonal transition? I think it's not too hard to say "I'm not claiming to be one or the other" with physical transition, to some extent it probably unfortunately plays into people's belief that a trans person isn't a "real man/woman".

[Bloc]

1 hour ago, anisotrophic said:

 

I think... it sounds like you'd benefit from trying hormonal transition? I think it's not too hard to say "I'm not claiming to be one or the other" with physical transition, to some extent it probably unfortunately plays into people's belief that a trans person isn't a "real man/woman".

I might benefit. But it is such a scary step that I try other things first like changing pronouns and using female forms of nouns and adjectives in safe spaces or dressing more feminine.

 

My experiences is that people expect you to decide to be a man or woman. People who see trans as failed gender assigned at birth will not accept non-binary people. Another problem is that being trans was the punchline in to many comedies when growing up that I fear to be this punchline.

[Karst]

I find it funny when strangers can't figure out what gender I'm supposed to be.

Look, person, I barely know what gender I am!

[nerdperson777]

17 hours ago, Bloc said:

I am lying awake in bed and need to get this off my chest. So I apologise if it will be incoherent rambling.

 

I have the knowledge that I am a feminine being. I don't know where this comes from, it just feels correct. I would probably be better connected to my body if it had a vulva and a vagina instead of a penis and also having breasts would feel right. However being called a woman feels more like a verdict to me than a promise. It feels like being forced into rigid expectations like being called a man. I'm not sure if this is internalized misogyny or me being non-binary. I can't connect on a personal level with people who see me as a man. It feels like I have to play an act for them. On a professional level I can play this act, but this will never be a genuine connection.

 

I believe part of what keeps me from medical transition and more social transition is the fear to be put again into box and having to perform womanhood instead of manhood. Another part is the fear of social exclusion just for being trans and always having to explain being non-binary. It feels like both being seen as a man and being seen as a woman would be like a cage to me. Living in a society with a binary view of gender, which only got a few cracks recently, does not help. I would like to widen these cracks to make it easier for others but I don't feel like I have the energy or power to do so.

 

I hope I can write soon write more uplifting stuff.

I can see what you're going with here.  AMAB trans people, binary or not, often have a hard time getting taken seriously.  A strong reason is probably that testosterone causes many irreversible changes that puts the physical body beyond the binary "spectrum", making it hard to be seen as anything but.  Masculine AFAB people is more society acceptable than non-masculine AMAB people.  I can see what you say as being a non-binary feeling.  Even though I'm AFAB, I think I would prefer what parts I have over a penis.  It's more like I don't really care.  Having one feels like more trouble than it's worth.  But most of it, besides the boobs, can sound like a neutral body is what you want.  No extra attachments required.  And people regardless of gender can have boobs.  Larger people have them.  It can be neutral.  You can take it as having a bit of femininity to yourself than just neutral.  Being non-binary is definitely not feeling totally right as a man or a woman.

 

Even medically, I have read from other people's posts that it's hard for an AMAB person who has gone through testosterone puberty to find transition paths.  Since testosterone is a strong hormone, it takes a lot to push back against it, which is why many hormone takers have to take a blocker in addition to estrogen.  But I know people who take the blocker only.  Don't think that causes boob growth though.  Then for surgery options, there's nullification.  I've only heard of that and the traditional bottom surgery, but with a second way of taking some internal part, I think gallbladder, to make it.  I feel like AFAB has way more options, and partially it's because of cis doctors not wanting to make more feminine AMAB people.  There are definitely more ways to transition, you just have to find them or make your own.  Sometimes the feminization even for trans women just make them neutral so it's still possible to be neutral.  Many ways you can go.

I got an agender friend who keeps getting called a guy but they don't have the energy to correct people.  It makes me feel kinda sad that they can't have the same gender rights as me.  We briefly worked together and the boss put them down as male in our database.  This teenage boy and I just about never get misgendered by him or the manager.  Then there's the trans woman who helped us get accepted when we were students.  She hasn't really been listening to the boss lately so when I walked in on a meeting this week, the boss misgendered her half the time.  I know she hasn't been very professional but she still should get to be called the correct pronoun.

[Starbogen]

@Bloc yeah I get what you're saying.. especially about that fear of being that person who's always the punchline of a transphobic joke. And I know that stuff is way way worse for amab trans people than afab trans people so I understand why you're hesitant to move forward with this and it's not as easy as just transitioning and being done with it..

I think you're on the right track with just using feminine pronouns and presenting femininely on your own terms where you feel comfortable for now. The best you can do in these situations, imo, is just to do as much as you can that is safe and makes you happy and comfortable, until you either feel satisfied where you are, you feel more confident enough to keep moving forward, or you feel unsettled enough by dysphoria that you end up moving forward even if you don't have the confidence yet. Whichever happens first. 

 

As for the social and internal stuff about feeling like you'd be put in a box.. It does sound like you have some nonbinary part of your identity. So do a lot of people who don't feel entirely binary but they still live practially as a binary gender because that's what they're most comfortable with when it comes to their body. Some of those people are comfortable keeping their birthsex and apparent gender but privately identify as cisgenderless or demigender or just "not totally cis" and might go by neutral pronouns as well as their assigned pronouns, other people transition to look effectively like the opposite sex but identify as nonbinary, or genderqueer (this is my case) and could also go by a variety of pronouns. And then there's also the posibility of just being binary but gender nonconforming so either societal role would feel like being put in a box (also me). 

 

Like for me.. I feel like I'm binary simply because I identified as nonbinary for a while when I was questioning my gender and it always felt like something was kind of missing and like I wasn't done figuring things out yet. I had the chance to be seen both as nonbinary (well irl this just meant that I looked so neutral that people couldn't figure out what I was) and as male by people, and I realized being seen as male gave me more gender euphoria and felt more complete than being seen as neither. However, I've never felt 100% male and I'm not very attached to the concept of manhood or the idea of being a "man". For me being binary trans just means that I prefer a male body and social presentation to a female or nonbinary one. If I lived in a society where nonbinary genders were as well known and accepted as binary ones, or on a deserted island, I'd probably feel more comfortable with showing that genderqueer side of me more but I'd still consider myself binary because I'd still want to have a male body, male pronouns, and most importantly be seen as male rather than as nonbinary. 

 

So really when it comes to that I think in the end it probably comes down to how you feel most comfortable being seen/seeing yourself.. Like I feel 65-85% male and I consider that binary but someone could feel the same way and yet consider that nonbinary. 

I think if the very idea of femaleness and womanhood itself, not femininity or gender roles, feels not quite right or incomplete to you then it's most likely a sign of being nonbinary. My point in the end is that there's just as many ways of being binary as being nonbinary so just go with what makes the most sense to you and remember that ultimately other people's opinions about what you are or how you should be don't really matter.

[anisotrophic]

On 2/4/2020 at 1:17 PM, nerdperson777 said:

But most of it, besides the boobs, can sound like a neutral body is what you want.  No extra attachments required.  And people regardless of gender can have boobs.

Nonbinary isn’t necessarily “neutral”. I’m having trouble hating my breasts like I “should”.

[Karst]

28 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Nonbinary isn’t necessarily “neutral”. I’m having trouble hating my breasts like I “should”.

There's variety between nonbinary individuals just as much as there is between men or between women.

[DarkStormyKnight]

18 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

Nonbinary isn’t necessarily “neutral”. I’m having trouble hating my breasts like I “should”.

I've struggled with this a lot as well, and continue to struggle a lot with it, because I don't hate my body really. I'm lucky in that I don't have much dysphoria. 

Gender identity is up to YOU, not up to how people will categorize you.

[anisotrophic]

 

I guess what I’m trying to say is that my physiological transition doesn’t really have a neutral goal. I like masculinization but haven’t felt a desire to remove female parts. For the sake of what others experience, I wear binders and shave because I don’t want to throw too much confusion at people, I think they’ll be more comfortable with neutrality. At home I’m pretty happy to leave the binder off while I let the nascent facial hair grow.

 

maybe @Bloc is in some non-neutral nb zone too, but maybe it’s more like @Starbogen’s experience of a binary trans goal but internally not thinking “I’m 100% this”.

[Bloc]

I am definitely femme not gender neutral. What I definitely don't want is a nullyfying surgery. Having neither a penis nor a clit would be a nightmare to me. I like masturbation to much for it. It is that erections make me dysphoric if I don't take extra effort put them out of the way when I am with a partner, so having a vulva with a working clit is so much more appealing at the moment. If I didn't had to worry about erections maybe I would be more comfortable with having a penis. I'm not sure if the risks of surgery would be worth it and you don't get access to surgeries here without HRT. Also I would want to see the effects of HRT First before deciding about surgeries. It would be different if there would be a magical pill which would give me a vulva without any risk for medical complications.

[Ms. Carolynne]

On 1/8/2020 at 9:14 AM, Starbogen said:

Hmm so this might sound weird and like it makes no sense but does anyone else ever feel like.. you're technically a binary trans person but if you had been cis you would have identified with the term "cis-genderless"? So it's like you care about gender stuff, but only because you have dysphoria (particularly body dysphoria) but you don't actually feel a strong connection to gender otherwise? 

I guess I just feel like I'm a binary trans guy because I prefer living as male, looking male, going by male pronouns, presenting male, being treated and thought of as male (including by myself), but at the same time I don't quite feel like a "man". Like there's a distinction between the words "male" (even in a  social/cultural sense) and "man" for me. But I'm not sure if maybe I just feel like that because I haven't medically transitioned and that's maybe something I personally need before I can think of myself like that fully, or if it's because I haven't had enough social interactions like that, or if maybe it's just cause I don't feel like an adult.. Though to be fair I do tend to slightly prefer more neutral words like kid/child/sibling to boy/son/brother.. So I guess I feel like I'm too binary to consider myself nonbinary but I'm also not quite as binary as the average binary person.. Does that make sense? It's because of this stuff that I think of myself as genderqueer. I know it's an umbrella term but as far as I know it's not necessary a term that exclusively means nonbinary and some people who are binary use it right?.. so for me "genderqueer man" feels a lot more fitting than just "man". 

I feel similarly. A huge part of me identifying as a binary trans person has a lot more to do with physical dysphoria and wishing I were born the opposite sex.

 

As far as the more social aspects, I'm not as concrete, I feel I'm more agender if a bit femme in that respect.

 

So yeah, I could see myself being cisgenderless of sorts if I were AFAB, though if I were AFAB I probably would've never thought of it and might not even know the term.

[Starbogen]

8 minutes ago, Ms. Carolynne said:

So yeah, I could see myself being cisgenderless of sorts if I were AFAB, though if I were AFAB I probably would've never thought of it and might not even know the term.

Yeah exactly. If I had been born male I probably would have just thought I was a guy who was pretty indifferent to being a man. Which I mean is pretty much how I feel now but if I had been amab the term cisgenderless could have applied to me.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

I started researching some things around legal cases having harmful implications towards trans rights in the uk. Never have I felt more strongly that the equality act and the gra etc is not enough to demonstrate our equal rights.

[JON]

On 2/7/2020 at 1:30 AM, Bloc said:

I am definitely femme not gender neutral. What I definitely don't want is a nullyfying surgery. Having neither a penis nor a clit would be a nightmare to me. I like masturbation to much for it. It is that erections make me dysphoric if I don't take extra effort put them out of the way when I am with a partner, so having a vulva with a working clit is so much more appealing at the moment. If I didn't had to worry about erections maybe I would be more comfortable with having a penis. I'm not sure if the risks of surgery would be worth it and you don't get access to surgeries here without HRT. Also I would want to see the effects of HRT First before deciding about surgeries. It would be different if there would be a magical pill which would give me a vulva without any risk for medical complications.

I 'm a MAAB with also warm feelings towards the term neutrois, but I also want some nervends that that can give me some pleasure.

1) Mastubation/sex = Some nerveends that I can use vibrator on.

2) Gender=A syringe would be fine for me.