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Celyn: The Lutening

@TrippleL Since trans is a mismatch between AGAB and identity, and nobody got assigned non-binary at birth (there are a few ANAB babies around but that's very recent) we're all trans by definition. 

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6 hours ago, TrippleL said:

Is a non-binary person technically trans?

 

When I first identified as NB I did not consider myself trans, as I felt I fundamentally was NB, I wasn’t trans from something else, if that makes sense.

 

AVEN defines transgender as one’s sex and gender not being aligned (is that correct?) so I consider myself “technically transgender”.

 

I’ve seen posts arguing for and against, so I’m curious what you all think 🙂

Some nonbinary people are trans and some aren't.  I don't agree with the definition of transgender being "one who has a gender incongruence."  That definition is far too simplistic for such a complex concept.  There are plenty of gender fluid people for example who do not consider themselves trans. 

 

Personally, I don't consider myself trans because I do not meet all of the criteria, and the terms transgender or transsexual do not accurately describe my experience.  In my case I am not transitioning to something else in mind or body.  I always was what I am in my mind, and top surgery/testosterone doesn't change me into something else.  Those things are helping me accentuate what I feel are my positive physical attributes.  I am only nonbinary.  I believe that I was born a nonbinary gender.  Just because the doctor called me a girl when I was delivered doesn't mean he was correct.  I'm sure everyone thought I was going to be heterosexual when I was born, but that certainly wasn't the case either.  LOL

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nerdperson777
11 hours ago, TrippleL said:

Is a non-binary person technically trans?

 

When I first identified as NB I did not consider myself trans, as I felt I fundamentally was NB, I wasn’t trans from something else, if that makes sense.

 

AVEN defines transgender as one’s sex and gender not being aligned (is that correct?) so I consider myself “technically transgender”.

 

I’ve seen posts arguing for and against, so I’m curious what you all think 🙂

By my own definition of these terms, I'd say yes in most cases.  But also, it depends on how someone identifies.  Some people might identify as non-binary but not trans.  And when I said most cases, once I heard from a friend of someone who was intersex and non-binary so they were considered cis non-binary.

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Celyn: The Lutening
9 minutes ago, nerdperson777 said:

By my own definition of these terms, I'd say yes in most cases.  But also, it depends on how someone identifies.  Some people might identify as non-binary but not trans.  And when I said most cases, once I heard from a friend of someone who was intersex and non-binary so they were considered cis non-binary.

Exactly. If you're not using the same definition of trans that I did, you don't have accept the trans label.

Enbies who don't ID as trans are very valid indeed ❤️

(I was just responding to the original question as per my reasoning behind calling myself trans)

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Anthracite_Impreza

I also ID as trans, though online I usually just let people assume I'm cis male (which happens a lot).

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no-longer-in-use
On 4/2/2019 at 1:49 AM, TrippleL said:

Is a non-binary person technically trans?

 

When I first identified as NB I did not consider myself trans, as I felt I fundamentally was NB, I wasn’t trans from something else, if that makes sense.

 

AVEN defines transgender as one’s sex and gender not being aligned (is that correct?) so I consider myself “technically transgender”.

 

I’ve seen posts arguing for and against, so I’m curious what you all think 🙂

Yeah, that's the standard definition of transgender. However, you don't have to identify as trans even if you technically fall under the definition.

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This those not really make hopefull.

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/emma-31-fick-vanta-i-atta-ar-for-att-fa-vard/

Spoiler

Emma, 31, had to wait for eight years to receive care


Strong criticism is directed at the care of young transgender people around the country.
Several doctors, psychologists and anxious parents warn that the children will regret their treatments.
But Emma Norgren from Umeå, on the contrary, believes that her highest wish would have been to have the opportunity to do the treatment at an early age.
- Everything I struggle with medically now could have been avoided, she says.

 

Emma Norgren, 31, has applied for care twice for her sexual dysphoria. The first time was in 2011, when she quickly got to meet a specialist doctor at a gender identity reception in northern Sweden.

The visit felt good, she tells, but then she heard nothing from the health care. Emma saw it as a sign that the treatment was not something for her after all.

It ran out into the sand. The time went by and she began to feel worse. Finally, four years later, she sought help again. This time, the waiting times were much longer.

- You always have to expect that it takes longer than the estimates you get. I applied for care in 2016 but felt so bad about the long queue times, I was part-time sick at times. In the end, I started to self-medicate with hormones.

 

How did you get the hormones?

- It is possible to buy in some places online, it is very awkward but it goes. You get to import and hope it doesn't get stuck in customs, says Emma Norgren.

 

But you still felt it was worth it?

- Yeah. For me it is like life and death really.

 

"Had wanted to know it was normal"
Since the winter of 2018, Emma Norgren joins a hormone doctor and gets the preparations printed. Taking hormones, she will need to do the rest of her life.

Emma has known that she was a woman since her early age, but did not know that there was a diagnosis for what she felt. She says that it had required more knowledge because she would have dared to tell her surroundings about what she felt.

- I wanted to know that it was actually a thing. This was the early 90's so the only thing I knew was that there were transvestites, moves and so on. But not that there was actually a medical diagnosis.

- I would have liked to know that it is something normal that people can feel that it can be treated. Then maybe I had dared to come out with it. Hearing about single cases on the other side of the earth is not enough. It was difficult, says Emma Norgren.

 

Had she been a young teenager today, she had wanted to have the treatment before puberty, she says.

- You can say that is my highest wish, if I had to go back and get access to stop hormones. And estrogen treatment so I could have had a normal puberty. Because it is as much as puberty is causing.


How do you mean, put up with?

- Yes, you grow in the wrong direction. It's bone structure and that's the voice, everything. Everything I struggle with medically and with voice training and such now it had to be avoided, she says.

 

Operation is the next goal
Right now Emma is waiting for an answer to her application for a change of legal sex. She sent it in to the National Board of Health and Welfare's legal council in January, and she expects an answer within three months.

After that, she can apply for certain surgical procedures.

Emma Norgren is critical of the long care queues for transgender people, but at the same time says that one must know what to do before, for example, surgery.

- I agree that it is very important that you are safe, because operations cannot be taken back. But I feel stoned. So the question is whether there should be a quick file for such as me, it would make things easier, she says.

 

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I've realized I'm super dysphoric whenever I read/listen/think about the specifics of top surgery. Not saying I don't want it or whatever, just that I can't stand watching videos on youtube for example where trans people describe different types of top surgery in detail. It makes me physically ill. And recently I had someone trying to cisplain top surgery to me 🙄. I felt like I was gonna throw up. That was fun./s

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So I’ve been invited to an LGBT+ group meeting by my friend and I’m not sure how open to be.

 

I’m openly ace, and quite a few people know I’m also bi, but hardly anyone knows I’m non-binary.

 

I’m not sure I’m ready to come out to a group of people yet (even if they’re open minded, hopefully), but I know that if I bottle it and only say bi ace and the person next to me turns out to be trans and shares their pronouns I’ll feel bad that I didn’t 😞

 

On a related note, I want them to accept me because I’m ace, not just because I’m also bi and trans, so depending I what vibe I get I’d consider just saying ace (I’ve experienced both ace and bi erasure from gay people in the past so let’s see!)

 

Any advice? 🙂

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@TrippleL I would just wait to feel out the situation.  If you feel safe and get a good vibe then you can decide if you want to be open about your identity.  No need to jump into revealing things if you aren't comfortable or ready to do so.  I hope things go well for you. 👍

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Celyn: The Lutening

@TrippleL I would try to find out beforehand what the identity profile of the group is like. If there are any other trans people, which they probably will be, coming out as enby should go fine.

Likewise with ace though because "aces aren't LGBT" is still such a thing it would be much less likely to see them. In my old LGBT group, which had a pretty big membership there was just one openly ace member and a handful of demisexuals including me.

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nerdperson777
14 hours ago, Kimmie. said:

This those not really make hopefull.

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/emma-31-fick-vanta-i-atta-ar-for-att-fa-vard/

  Hide contents

Emma, 31, had to wait for eight years to receive care


Strong criticism is directed at the care of young transgender people around the country.
Several doctors, psychologists and anxious parents warn that the children will regret their treatments.
But Emma Norgren from Umeå, on the contrary, believes that her highest wish would have been to have the opportunity to do the treatment at an early age.
- Everything I struggle with medically now could have been avoided, she says.

 

Emma Norgren, 31, has applied for care twice for her sexual dysphoria. The first time was in 2011, when she quickly got to meet a specialist doctor at a gender identity reception in northern Sweden.

The visit felt good, she tells, but then she heard nothing from the health care. Emma saw it as a sign that the treatment was not something for her after all.

It ran out into the sand. The time went by and she began to feel worse. Finally, four years later, she sought help again. This time, the waiting times were much longer.

- You always have to expect that it takes longer than the estimates you get. I applied for care in 2016 but felt so bad about the long queue times, I was part-time sick at times. In the end, I started to self-medicate with hormones.

 

How did you get the hormones?

- It is possible to buy in some places online, it is very awkward but it goes. You get to import and hope it doesn't get stuck in customs, says Emma Norgren.

 

But you still felt it was worth it?

- Yeah. For me it is like life and death really.

 

"Had wanted to know it was normal"
Since the winter of 2018, Emma Norgren joins a hormone doctor and gets the preparations printed. Taking hormones, she will need to do the rest of her life.

Emma has known that she was a woman since her early age, but did not know that there was a diagnosis for what she felt. She says that it had required more knowledge because she would have dared to tell her surroundings about what she felt.

- I wanted to know that it was actually a thing. This was the early 90's so the only thing I knew was that there were transvestites, moves and so on. But not that there was actually a medical diagnosis.

- I would have liked to know that it is something normal that people can feel that it can be treated. Then maybe I had dared to come out with it. Hearing about single cases on the other side of the earth is not enough. It was difficult, says Emma Norgren.

 

Had she been a young teenager today, she had wanted to have the treatment before puberty, she says.

- You can say that is my highest wish, if I had to go back and get access to stop hormones. And estrogen treatment so I could have had a normal puberty. Because it is as much as puberty is causing.


How do you mean, put up with?

- Yes, you grow in the wrong direction. It's bone structure and that's the voice, everything. Everything I struggle with medically and with voice training and such now it had to be avoided, she says.

 

Operation is the next goal
Right now Emma is waiting for an answer to her application for a change of legal sex. She sent it in to the National Board of Health and Welfare's legal council in January, and she expects an answer within three months.

After that, she can apply for certain surgical procedures.

Emma Norgren is critical of the long care queues for transgender people, but at the same time says that one must know what to do before, for example, surgery.

- I agree that it is very important that you are safe, because operations cannot be taken back. But I feel stoned. So the question is whether there should be a quick file for such as me, it would make things easier, she says.

 

It might just a translation thing, but it feels weird to call it "sexual dysphoria".  It's like when cishets decide that everything trans or gay is about the sex again.  Then there's us, who aren't thinking of sex.

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1 hour ago, nerdperson777 said:

It might just a translation thing, but it feels weird to call it "sexual dysphoria".  It's like when cishets decide that everything trans or gay is about the sex again.  Then there's us, who aren't thinking of sex.

I did a quick read and the word is könsdysfori and you are right it is a Google translate thing probably. 

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Fluffy Femme Guy
2 hours ago, nerdperson777 said:

It might just a translation thing, but it feels weird to call it "sexual dysphoria".  It's like when cishets decide that everything trans or gay is about the sex again.  Then there's us, who aren't thinking of sex.

I'm certain 'sex' in that context is referring to 'body type' rather than the verb.

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Celyn: The Lutening
1 hour ago, Fluffy Femme Guy said:

I'm certain 'sex' in that context is referring to 'body type' rather than the verb.

 

2 hours ago, Kimmie. said:

könsdysfori

Is actually a better word for it. It's not our gender that's the problem, it's the physical/biological sex of our bodies that's wrong. 

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1 minute ago, Celyn said:

 

Is actually a better word for it. It's not our gender that's the problem, it's the physical/biological sex of our bodies that's wrong. 

Yeah the diagnosis that you need to start the transistion is could transsexualism.

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Celyn: The Lutening
2 minutes ago, Kimmie. said:

Yeah the diagnosis that you need to start the transistion is could transsexualism.

Despite that being an outdated term/ slur in English-speaking countries, I do think it makes more sense.

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10 minutes ago, Celyn said:

Despite that being an outdated term/ slur in English-speaking countries, I do think it makes more sense.

If i remember correctly you don´t need that diagnosis if you don´t want to bottom operation. The problem in sweden is that we don´t really have diffrent words for sex/gender they are both could kön. So a transgender person useally calls them self as transperson.

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Celyn: The Lutening
13 hours ago, Kimmie. said:

The problem in sweden is that we don´t really have diffrent words for sex/gender they are both could kön

Blegh I hate it.

 

Good news! The clinic called, endo scan is in 2 weeks. Here's hoping it's a sh**storm in there and they have to whip that bad boy out.

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Custard Cream
On 4/2/2019 at 4:38 PM, Celyn said:

@TrippleL Since trans is a mismatch between AGAB and identity, and nobody got assigned non-binary at birth (there are a few ANAB babies around but that's very recent) we're all trans by definition. 

Sorry if this is a stupid question - and as I don't identify as non-binary I feel bad about posting here, so please feel free to ignore me - but how would a parent decide that a child is non-binary at birth? Surely that is something an individual has to decide for themselves? Or is it simply that the parents are bringing the child up to reject gender concepts? If so, what if the child disagrees with the decision later?

 

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no-longer-in-use
36 minutes ago, CustardCream said:

Sorry if this is a stupid question - and as I don't identify as non-binary I feel bad about posting here, so please feel free to ignore me - but how would a parent decide that a child is non-binary at birth? Surely that is something an individual has to decide for themselves? Or is it simply that the parents are bringing the child up to reject gender concepts? If so, what if the child disagrees with the decision later?

 

I believe what Celyn was referring to is the few parents who choose to conceal their child's birth sex from people and refer to their child with they/them pronouns in order to let the child "decide" their gender. It's not a stupid question, and I can't speak for the others, but I'm fine with binary people posting here with questions :D

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nerdperson777
19 hours ago, Kimmie. said:

If i remember correctly you don´t need that diagnosis if you don´t want to bottom operation. The problem in sweden is that we don´t really have diffrent words for sex/gender they are both could kön. So a transgender person useally calls them self as transperson.

I looked up in my Chinese dictionary app for transgender and the literal translation was change sex/birth.  Given the limited knowledge, I guess in this, it would make some sense.  It sounds really binary to me too.  Not all trans people are binary FtM or MtF.  Not all trans people want to change their sex.  But the good thing about the Chinese language I guess, is that if we don't know the word for something, just make a phonetic out of it.  Cities like Los Angeles and San Diego are just phonetized.  San Francisco just uses up the Franci and cuts out the sco.

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7 hours ago, Celyn said:

Blegh I hate it.

 

Good news! The clinic called, endo scan is in 2 weeks. Here's hoping it's a sh**storm in there and they have to whip that bad boy out.

I wish I could get a hysto, but I'm terrified of having it done. 😣

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Celyn: The Lutening
3 hours ago, AceOfHearts_85 said:

I wish I could get a hysto, but I'm terrified of having it done. 😣

Oh I'm terrified of surgery. But I hate my uterus and boobs THAT MUCH.

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Celyn: The Lutening
8 hours ago, CustardCream said:

Sorry if this is a stupid question - and as I don't identify as non-binary I feel bad about posting here, so please feel free to ignore me - but how would a parent decide that a child is non-binary at birth? Surely that is something an individual has to decide for themselves? Or is it simply that the parents are bringing the child up to reject gender concepts? If so, what if the child disagrees with the decision later?

 

It's also a really good idea for intersex babies since they usually get assigned female but a large proportion will grow up identifying as male or nonbinary. 

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Anthracite_Impreza
6 hours ago, AceOfHearts_85 said:

I wish I could get a hysto, but I'm terrified of having it done. 😣

I'm shit scared of just the needle part, surgery is not even conceivable right now :c

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12 hours ago, Celyn said:

Oh I'm terrified of surgery. But I hate my uterus and boobs THAT MUCH.

I'm a bit less uncomfortable with top surgery, even though all surgery is scary and invasive as hell.  Thing is I have an issue with removing my clothes and having people touch/insert instruments/look at my naked body, especially if it's downstairs parts.  That makes me want to die just thinking about it. 😷

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So I randomly remembered a dream from a few years ago which makes a lot more sense now. This was before I identified as ace or non-binary and before I’d been honest with myself that I kinda knew deep down my orientation and gender were not what I thought they were.

 

At the time I had a crush on a beautiful “girly” girl. In the dream, we were just cuddled up on the sofa and we were either both female or I was at neutral, leaning female.

 

I woke up with a intense sense of euphoria which I can still remember now when I think back. I enjoyed the feeling but it made no sense to me at the time so I forgot about it eventually.

 

Anyway, whatever dreams actually are, that seems a pretty clear sign of asexuality and non-binary gender! 🙂

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11 hours ago, TrippleL said:

So I randomly remembered a dream from a few years ago which makes a lot more sense now. This was before I identified as ace or non-binary and before I’d been honest with myself that I kinda knew deep down my orientation and gender were not what I thought they were.

 

At the time I had a crush on a beautiful “girly” girl. In the dream, we were just cuddled up on the sofa and we were either both female or I was at neutral, leaning female.

 

I woke up with a intense sense of euphoria which I can still remember now when I think back. I enjoyed the feeling but it made no sense to me at the time so I forgot about it eventually.

 

Anyway, whatever dreams actually are, that seems a pretty clear sign of asexuality and non-binary gender! 🙂

That sounds pretty clear to me!  lol 👍

 

I remember having dreams of kissing girls in 6th and 10th grade, back before I knew I liked girls or that I was ace and nonbinary.  In each case I always took the dominant role, and was physically on top of my feminine partner while we were laying down on some sort of bed or sofa.

 

When I woke up I felt happy and euphoric.....even fulfilled in some way.  Nothing about being AFAB with another AFAB felt bad or wrong, and it didn't feel like a lesbian experience at all.  It felt completely right, but I was still oblivious about everything to do with identity at that point.

 

When I was 21 I started having feelings for girls but I didn't understand what those feelings were.  Then when I turned 30 it was confirmed that I did indeed like women and I am a "top" because I have an aggressive masculine nature.  I finally realized why I didn't feel gay, and it's because I'm nonbinary and ace.  My mind was blown. 😄

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