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Celyn: The Lutening
3 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

I'm definitely not there yet! So I also have skepticism how doable this is without a lot of hormonal transition.

*Sad elf noises*

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anisotrophic
10 minutes ago, Celyn said:

*Sad elf noises*

I suspect I'm looking more like a pirate 😄

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Celyn: The Lutening
5 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

I suspect I'm looking more like a pirate 😄

That sounds amazing and perfect.

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27 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Facial hair is starting to come in,

I have some weird hair on my face so it might be the reason for passing. Yeah, like, according to the gyno I have high levels of testosterone. So it might be the reason why I can pass. I got called the f word for a gay man for wearing skirts and nail polish and stuff like that. But agreed, facial hair is just weird, and it itches and scratches whenever you decide to sleep on you hands or kiss your SO or something. I seriously qualify for electrolysis or laser right now, but I don’t see the point if I want to pass as a man. I’d rather get top surgery, I suppose. 

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nerdperson777
15 hours ago, Emery. said:

Maybe another factor contributing to passing is that now I exercise every second or third day, quite heavily. I always had the talent to gain muscle mass so here we go. Still, I’d still say an exercised body with low testosterone looks very different to an exercised body with high testosterone. The frame is still quite delicate or graceful or what have you. The muscles are small and the body is wiry rather than muscular. Still, I lift... a lot *proud* 50 kg is fine. Speaking of which, I gained 6kg of pure muscle mass this year and I feel like I still have space for improvement. ... I’m not sure how that much exercise goes with makeup, tbh. I’m in a constant state of dehydration and try really hard to maintain enough body fat, because in an ad hoc home measurement it was 10% of my total mass, and it’s too little for both sexes. And I weigh on the higher end for my height. So, um, that’s the “wiry” I’m talking about. The chances are, makeup would make me look like a vampire. Lol. I don’t need any more sharpening of the features. But really, I thought I’m a wimp and can’t ever get near what I achieved in sport, namely acrobatics is quite cool, but you need to be strong to e.g. jump high or pull yourself up. 

I had been essentially exercising 6 days a week before the lockdown happened.  I don't think I have the genes for gaining muscle easily.  My work had a swab kit for the customers to find out what they're predisposed to for their diet.  They had extra so us employees were allowed to try.  Mine said that when I eat fatty foods, I really pack the fat on.  It also said that upper body exercises would help me.  But I have noodle arms.  The company's body fat machine said that I had 80% of the arm muscle of a guy and 90% of a girl of my age, height, and weight.  I just tested myself with both binary genders to get the different results.  Probably body fat too, since that got measured.  So that's basically saying that I have less upper body strength than the average girl.  There's one girl who's a student where I teach and she said that she got neurotic about pushups because the aesthetic of a good pushup is very satisfying to her.  I may be a higher rank than her, but her pushup form is way better than mine.

 

It's probably okay that you're at a higher weight for your height just because of your muscle mass.  But, usually even bodybuilders try to have higher levels of body fat to sustain themselves until competition season so just try to be careful with your sustenance.  My exercise is of the acrobatics variety so I'm told that I have decent jump height.  I have been frustrated over not being able to do some of the harder jumps though.

 

I'm reminded of a gender group I'm in online where someone posted a picture that was a drawing reference for a "female" and a "male" leg.  The female leg was curvier and the male leg was just a slight curve.  But I just looked at them and thought, those are my actual legs.  My left leg, same as in the drawing, has been my stronger leg ever since I injured my right leg.  Plus with all my jumps, I have a lot of quad muscles.  My right leg, is less curvy.  I had ACL reconstruction done on it and it was wrapped up for two weeks post op.  When I went to the surgeon's office to get the stitches removed, I was amazed at how much the muscles in my leg wasted away.  That machine at work told me that there was a half pound difference in the muscle amount on my leg.  Usually it was 0.2, but not 0.5.  So I basically had to build my right leg up from scratch, and I'm on T so that leg gained the muscle was built by my testosterone dominant body.  It got to go through a testosterone puberty, not just estrogen first, then testosterone.  When I asked medical professionals early on about whether my legs would be the same size again, they said I should in a year.  I'm over two years now.  Now that I think of it, mine is a unique situation.  It's not common for someone to get the surgery on a leg and then "switch" the dominant hormone when building it back up.  So the fact that I have a curvier left leg and not as curvy right leg probably won't change.  In pride of my non-binary status, I do call my left leg my "girl" leg and my right leg my "boy" leg.

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6 hours ago, nerdperson777 said:

It's probably okay that you're at a higher weight for your height just because of your muscle mass.  But, usually even bodybuilders try to have higher levels of body fat to sustain themselves until competition season so just try to be careful with your sustenance.  My exercise is of the acrobatics variety so I'm told that I have decent jump height.  I have been frustrated over not being able to do some of the harder jumps though.

The funny thing about muscle mass is that it’s not too visible visually. Tbh I have been doing a lot of cardio and I bet a lot of this weight went somewhere hidden inside the body’s structure. And in the muscles like those around backbone and on the abdomen or just very near to the bones. 

 

Yeah, the fat is concerning. When I didn’t exercise, I ran several times into undernutrition when studying a lot, I have high metabolism. The weight was fine, but health not. I have always been on the heavier side, but I don’t look this way at all, I look like skin and bones. I always blamed it on heavy bones. So, yeah, I try to get enough food :P which means a couple of diner portions a day. 

 

I wouldn’t be optimistic about competing with men with similar biology to mine, like family members, for example, but with most men, I find that I can keep up with them in exercise. But still, I’d say I have 70% of my dad’s strength, so common knowledge very mich exaggerates the male-female differences in fitness. Where I live women as physical workers are allowed to lift one third of what a man can at one time. 

 

And about acrobatics, do you get problems with joints from the jumps? Do you know anything about preventing them? I injured my knees not too long ago. 

 

A male and female pair of legs. Curious :P 

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As a tomboy i hate makeup and painting my nails cause it’s not my thing. I do wear high heels and dresses but only on special occasions (like when going to church, weddings or other special activities), i don’t wear it in everyday situations. Cause i love dressing masculine and am kind of masculine. But i’m genderfluid cause i don’t see myself as fully masculine or fully feminine or non-binary or agender all the time. It switches every time, also when not wanting to. I do wear binder(actually a sports bra) but not recently now when the corona virus is overrated where i live. It is hard, but i accept it also because i don’t wanna risk myself for having difficulties with breathing if i’m ever gonna be diseased. I mean it wouldn’t affect to me since i’m young and healthy and has a great immune system. But i still wanna stay on the safe side until the risk of having covid19 is getting lower. 

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nerdperson777
9 hours ago, Emery. said:

Yeah, the fat is concerning. When I didn’t exercise, I ran several times into undernutrition when studying a lot, I have high metabolism. The weight was fine, but health not. I have always been on the heavier side, but I don’t look this way at all, I look like skin and bones. I always blamed it on heavy bones. So, yeah, I try to get enough food :P which means a couple of diner portions a day. 

 

I wouldn’t be optimistic about competing with men with similar biology to mine, like family members, for example, but with most men, I find that I can keep up with them in exercise. But still, I’d say I have 70% of my dad’s strength, so common knowledge very mich exaggerates the male-female differences in fitness. Where I live women as physical workers are allowed to lift one third of what a man can at one time. 

 

And about acrobatics, do you get problems with joints from the jumps? Do you know anything about preventing them? I injured my knees not too long ago. 

 

A male and female pair of legs. Curious :P 

The company also had a metabolic rate machine to tell people how many calories they normally eat in a day.  If 2000 was average, I think I was at 1100.  I have a really low metabolism.  Even with T upping it up, apparently I'm only at the 25th percentile.

 

I did compete once in the male category before T.  Normally I would've been not confident about it, but the differences were negligible in the category I competed in.  I came home with a first place and third place medal.  There were only 3 people in each category because only so many people choose it.  The most popular categories have like 30-35 people and they take a long time.  I'm glad I switched out of that category and focused on what I was good at, which was being slow, haha.  There was a girl at my school who was able to keep up.  She was only 5 feet tall, but she was strong.  I feel like she usually dresses like Lara Croft with the tank top when we do practices, so if there was ever an Asian version of it, she could totally be her.  I heard they have more conditioning exercises now than before, but when I was there, we did conditioning maybe 3 times a year.  Our instructor would make us do pushups, fast and slow.  She actually was able to do all of it, at least the fast ones.  I'm not sure about the slow.  And I remember during these pushups, the guys with the big biceps were not the ones who could do it.  It was this one skinny guy that probably didn't do very much training.

 

Yes, joints are often an issue.  People here often complain about their knees from doing too many impacts.  I've had surgery done on mine.  I don't know if I exactly have any tips on it.  I have some braces, but my knee hasn't been in pain lately, so I haven't had to use them.  When I was rehabilitating from surgery, I was given physical therapy exercises.  I guess that helps with strengthening the muscles with low impact.

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I probably eat 2500 or 3000 kcal a day, lol. 1100 is really low 😮

 

Lara Croft is cool. Tbh, I don’t think the buff guys are the best at sports that aren’t weightlifting. I wouldn’t be surprised if women were better in certain disciplines. So far, i know that women are better at stretching and that my mom and I outdo dad in long distance biking. Those slow pushups are tough, btw :P 

 

Right, so there is nothing that can be done about the joints. 

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nerdperson777
10 hours ago, Emery. said:

I probably eat 2500 or 3000 kcal a day, lol. 1100 is really low 😮

 

Lara Croft is cool. Tbh, I don’t think the buff guys are the best at sports that aren’t weightlifting. I wouldn’t be surprised if women were better in certain disciplines. So far, i know that women are better at stretching and that my mom and I outdo dad in long distance biking. Those slow pushups are tough, btw :P 

 

Right, so there is nothing that can be done about the joints. 

Yeah, I'm small and am not known for my metabolism.

 

My dad believes in the gender stereotypes.  The neighbor's son quit his ice cream scooping job and had to replace him.  So my dad was all "girls can't do this job" because they don't have enough arm strength.  I told this to my cousin who's cis and is all about that girl power.  I noticed that she had a "women in tech" sticker on her computer, so I can tell she's very proud of being a woman.  But her reply to me telling her what dad said was "are you kidding me?  the women at my gym can lift more than him."  I thought that was really funny.  But my parents are really binary minded so don't expect any changes.  Dad is just "men are strong, women are weak" and nothing else.

 

There was a time that we were comparing thigh sizes.  He couldn't believe that I had the same thigh circumference as him.  Mom ended up having to measure us.  He can't just assume that he has bigger legs just because he's a man.

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13 hours ago, nerdperson777 said:

So my dad was all "girls can't do this job" because they don't have enough arm strength

Oh. That’s sad. And yeah, women who train at the gym tend to be fitter than the average guy. 

 

Quote

I noticed that she had a "women in tech" sticker on her computer, so I can tell she's very proud of being a woman.

I wonder how I would feel about it if touching the topic of being whichever sex didn’t make me spiral into doubt forever. 

You don’t have such dilemmas having been on hormones for so long, do you? 

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Grey-Ace Ventura
On 3/30/2020 at 10:20 PM, nerdperson777 said:

I'm reminded of a gender group I'm in online where someone posted a picture that was a drawing reference for a "female" and a "male" leg.  The female leg was curvier and the male leg was just a slight curve.  But I just looked at them and thought, those are my actual legs.  My left leg, same as in the drawing, has been my stronger leg ever since I injured my right leg.  Plus with all my jumps, I have a lot of quad muscles.  My right leg, is less curvy.  I had ACL reconstruction done on it and it was wrapped up for two weeks post op.  When I went to the surgeon's office to get the stitches removed, I was amazed at how much the muscles in my leg wasted away.  That machine at work told me that there was a half pound difference in the muscle amount on my leg.  Usually it was 0.2, but not 0.5.  So I basically had to build my right leg up from scratch, and I'm on T so that leg gained the muscle was built by my testosterone dominant body.  It got to go through a testosterone puberty, not just estrogen first, then testosterone.  When I asked medical professionals early on about whether my legs would be the same size again, they said I should in a year.  I'm over two years now.  Now that I think of it, mine is a unique situation.  It's not common for someone to get the surgery on a leg and then "switch" the dominant hormone when building it back up.  So the fact that I have a curvier left leg and not as curvy right leg probably won't change.  In pride of my non-binary status, I do call my left leg my "girl" leg and my right leg my "boy" leg.

Same with my hips. Because of my scoliosis, one hip is more straight and masculine and the other is curvier and more feminine. I do hate the curvy side, but I think of my hips as bisexual pride. One straight side, one gay side.

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nerdperson777
11 hours ago, Emery. said:

I wonder how I would feel about it if touching the topic of being whichever sex didn’t make me spiral into doubt forever. 

You don’t have such dilemmas having been on hormones for so long, do you? 

I'm not sure which dilemma you're talking about that is related to being on hormones.  I've accepted the fact that I have below average muscle tone in my arms.  I try to get my pushups in for my training whenever I have time but I don't expect them to be that strong.

 

9 hours ago, Grey-Ace Ventura said:

Same with my hips. Because of my scoliosis, one hip is more straight and masculine and the other is curvier and more feminine. I do hate the curvy side, but I think of my hips as bisexual pride. One straight side, one gay side.

A friend had a similar issue.  It's the one that I said passed well until they opened their mouth.  They had one straight waist and one curved waist, so they joked that even their body doesn't know what they are.

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28 minutes ago, nerdperson777 said:

I'm not sure which dilemma you're talking about that is related to being on hormones.  I've accepted the fact that I have below average muscle tone in my arms.  I try to get my pushups in for my training whenever I have time but I don't expect them to be that strong.

I mean the dilemma of spiralling into doubt which gender you are and whether you should or should not be included in, say, a women’s group and how this is going to work out. 

I feel like I could participate in women’s groups in theory, but I don’t share their common experiences at all and end up defending men when they start hating on men. Being torn between not feeling included by men and “technically, I am a girl” - and not feeling like you can relate to being a woman, other women, those events, etc.

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nerdperson777
On 4/2/2020 at 2:16 AM, Emery. said:

I mean the dilemma of spiralling into doubt which gender you are and whether you should or should not be included in, say, a women’s group and how this is going to work out. 

I feel like I could participate in women’s groups in theory, but I don’t share their common experiences at all and end up defending men when they start hating on men. Being torn between not feeling included by men and “technically, I am a girl” - and not feeling like you can relate to being a woman, other women, those events, etc.

In a binary environment, I choose male no question.  In the places I've been employed, I'm considered male just by my appearance.  Of course my facial features are still more rounded than angled so other than the facial hair, I probably would look ambiguous.  If it's just my face, people might even say it's a girl.  I said a couple weeks ago about experimenting with a long wig, but since the last time I wore a wig, which was pre-T, I was clocked.  So I feel a little wary that could make people read me as a girl.

Of course I still have the feminine tendencies, but where I'm not out, it's not too noticeable that I was raised AFAB.  I do strongly identify with being AFAB because I notice when I'm doing actions that I did when I thought I was female.  Sometimes I even notice the way I speak.  I don't deny my past.  I would join in topics on "women's experience" because I did have the experience, even if I don't identify as one.

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2 hours ago, nerdperson777 said:

Of course I still have the feminine tendencies, but where I'm not out, it's not too noticeable that I was raised AFAB.  I do strongly identify with being AFAB because I notice when I'm doing actions that I did when I thought I was female.  Sometimes I even notice the way I speak.  I don't deny my past.  I would join in topics on "women's experience" because I did have the experience, even if I don't identify as one.

What is the AFAB experience for you then? 

I have no clue what it is for me. Maybe unwanted sexual atrention. However, I don’t distress too much over it.

 

Do you ever stumble upon feminists? They get so offended about me not wanting to participate in their stuff. I hate that! How is that my fault or trying to be better if I just don’t have their experience? Sure, I’m not anti-women (which I am according to their goddamn opinion) or anything like that, but do I have to be up for everything? 

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nerdperson777
11 hours ago, Emery. said:

What is the AFAB experience for you then? 

I have no clue what it is for me. Maybe unwanted sexual atrention. However, I don’t distress too much over it.

 

Do you ever stumble upon feminists? They get so offended about me not wanting to participate in their stuff. I hate that! How is that my fault or trying to be better if I just don’t have their experience? Sure, I’m not anti-women (which I am according to their goddamn opinion) or anything like that, but do I have to be up for everything? 

I think of it more like how I have been treated when I was seen as female.  My parents believe stereotypes as fact so I've been subjected to a few of them.

Since I wanted to hang out with guys when I was in elementary school, I would get boys that tell me that I can't play because I was a girl.  Then I would have to go to the playground instead, or hang out with a girl.  Only when a (bigger) guy became one of my friends, did I get to play more regularly.  I remember there being rubber balls we could take for break so we would have to get them first if we wanted to play.  When I got a ball, no one would play with me so I ended up giving it to a boy that could start a game.  My friend had no problem getting people to play, even if he was kind of a cheater, calling out redo when he was obviously out.

Then my dad constantly says women are weak.  There's also women are bad drivers.  But learning from my cousin, his only evidence was my mom, who constantly sped and braked quickly, which often causes the passengers to get sick.  Also I learned that statistically women get in more accidents, while men get in more serious accidents, which is why insurance for a man costs more, if that company does have gendered insurance.  I've grown up being told that I was weak so I still have that below average arm strength.  My mom didn't care a single thing about exercise and I should just study 24/7 so the only time I really exercised was PE.  I just accepted that I was weak, needed to be totally dependent on my parents, and shouldn't trust myself.

So most of experience centers upon guys not being nice, or trusting me, and being told that I couldn't do anything or wasn't allowed to do things, overall being oppressed.  I don't tend to get unwanted sexual attention, probably because of my strong aro ace vibes, and I don't exactly get seen as mature.  I never wear revealing clothing.  And if I look 15 and act 15 at the most, I'd probably not get anyone to be interested in me.

 

If I have been contact with any feminists, I haven't noticed.  I usually got some casual acquaintances that would point out that girls were doing stuff.  Like once I met this one girl.  She said that she would take this one education class with me, where we would have to do 40 hours of volunteering at assigned schools.  She had a friend with her when we were discussing this.  So she said that we three girls would be doing this together.  She never ended up taking the class with me, saying that she had another important class to take that term, but I remember her saying the three girls.  I guess I felt uncomfortable because I had already started questioning by then, but hadn't cut my hair yet.  At my last job, there was that very cishet religious woman.  I'm not sure if she even paid attention to the fact that trans people exist, or that there's one right in front of her.  She was normally very loud and talkative but stayed absolutely silent when our openly gay co-worker talked about his husband.  And she was obviously very cis femme.  She wore a lot of pink, did quite a bit of makeup.  I guess she was very mature for someone who had just turned 30.

And since I'm not very social, I probably didn't really fit in with feminists if I'm not into pink or even talking in general.  I think it must've been pretty obvious that I was not gender conforming, even if I didn't realize it.  I don't think those kind of people even sought me out.

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44 minutes ago, nerdperson777 said:

My parents believe stereotypes as fact so I've been subjected to a few of them.

Ah, that explains a lot. My parents don’t believe in gender stereotypes at all. Like, all of the women in my family are successful in career and some of them - sporty. 

And for whatever reason, I liked sport as a child, but not football.

And I’m not sure if women being bad drivers is a true stereotype at all. Like, some stereotypes have some truth to them. But this particular one, I don’t think so. Men have more of those dangerous accidents, for sure. (I used to be a quite aggressive driver as well) Weak... maybe true in terms of weight lifting. 

 

Tbh, when I developed a libido, it was more of a shock to me than when others did things about me being attractive. 

Hm. Both guys and girls hit on me. I tip everyone's gaydars.

 

I meet feminists because of the women in programming/science thing. I became so frustrated with that. They would even notice that I dress manly or straight up “confuse” me for a dude, and they wouldn’t get that I’m not up for ... femininity, I guess? They would start to tell me how I must be suppressing my inner woman or whatnot, and I’m like, ummm. How come did it not cross their minds that I like to dress this way? And about the woman who dresses in pink and is 30 years old, it strikes me that feminism became so much about the feminine stereotype. It is a surprise of the year for me. I would think feminists are against stereotypes. But they seem to enforce them further. Or maybe this is just my transgender perspective and I what I do gets reads by most people as “wants to be a man” and “doesn’t accept their body”, because apparently there is an obvious link between liking your genitals and wearing skirts or tight jeans. And those women tell me to behave more feminine also. Speaking of which, I used to have a problem with getting my gender nonconformity recognised. I aimed rather for that and then bam, I suddenly started to pass for a man to a full degree. So I tell those feminists, if they don’t comprehend: I am a man. A transgender man, but a man nonetheless. And they argue with that. 

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I'm a feminist. Most of my friends (male, female and nb alike) are also feminists. Nobody's ever talked about their 'inner woman' and pink does not seem to be common in any of their wardrobes. For me feminism is not at all about enforcing stereotypes or hating on men, but about getting rid of gendered restrictions, making sure that people of all genders have equal opportunity and that no form of gender expression is seen as lesser than any other. Feminism is a very broad movement, and different subsections can radically disagree with each other. Maybe you've met the wrong type of feminist? I've never met anyone who is like what you guys describe @Emery. and @nerdperson777. But I've also never (consciously) met a terf, so, guess I'm lucky?

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nerdperson777
23 hours ago, Emery. said:

Ah, that explains a lot. My parents don’t believe in gender stereotypes at all. Like, all of the women in my family are successful in career and some of them - sporty. 

And for whatever reason, I liked sport as a child, but not football.

And I’m not sure if women being bad drivers is a true stereotype at all. Like, some stereotypes have some truth to them. But this particular one, I don’t think so. Men have more of those dangerous accidents, for sure. (I used to be a quite aggressive driver as well) Weak... maybe true in terms of weight lifting. 

 

Tbh, when I developed a libido, it was more of a shock to me than when others did things about me being attractive. 

Hm. Both guys and girls hit on me. I tip everyone's gaydars.

 

I meet feminists because of the women in programming/science thing. I became so frustrated with that. They would even notice that I dress manly or straight up “confuse” me for a dude, and they wouldn’t get that I’m not up for ... femininity, I guess? They would start to tell me how I must be suppressing my inner woman or whatnot, and I’m like, ummm. How come did it not cross their minds that I like to dress this way? And about the woman who dresses in pink and is 30 years old, it strikes me that feminism became so much about the feminine stereotype. It is a surprise of the year for me. I would think feminists are against stereotypes. But they seem to enforce them further. Or maybe this is just my transgender perspective and I what I do gets reads by most people as “wants to be a man” and “doesn’t accept their body”, because apparently there is an obvious link between liking your genitals and wearing skirts or tight jeans. And those women tell me to behave more feminine also. Speaking of which, I used to have a problem with getting my gender nonconformity recognised. I aimed rather for that and then bam, I suddenly started to pass for a man to a full degree. So I tell those feminists, if they don’t comprehend: I am a man. A transgender man, but a man nonetheless. And they argue with that. 

Well, I think the girls on my mom's side of the family grew up with a lot of freedom and wasn't restricted as much.  My grandfather didn't want to do the nitty gritty stuff in the family business so he said my grandmother could handle it.  So she was basically the main owner.  I learned that she was really smart with her income, buying multiple properties before anyone knew that real estate was a big business.  I can see my mom and a few aunts are very opinionated.  The only time I really heard about gender inequality was concerning my grandmother's will.  The uncles already received a lot, but they still wanted more.  There was a new revision of her will right before she died that gave a little more to the daughters.  The sons were willing to say that she was on substances when she made that revision, so that they could get more out of the previous version.  The family business ended up going bankrupt, because apparently no one knew how to track cash flow.  They borrowed money from the bank for their salaries and they were asking for repayment now.  The daughters were saying to sell the business and property off to a business partner who was willing to buy, and that would save their debt.  Even with that, there was one son saying no, and one no meant that they couldn't do the deal.  I forget if it was the same son, but someone said that they weren't paying their part of the debt until they got paid their fair share.  It's probably just my mom telling me this, but he had way more than his share, and who says that you don't have to pay anything?  A debt is a debt.  It doesn't just go away.  So my uncles were greedy, that's all I know.  

 

Considering that I originally got accepted to university as an engineering major, I did feel a little guilty that I was letting girls and women down when I realized that I wasn't female.  I guess I wasn't sure how to explain that co-worker without relying on stereotypes.  But she certainly was the opposite of the kind of people I like hanging out with.  She embodied some harmful stereotypes, like telling another co-worker to "man up" when someone got him the wrong meat in his burrito when he forgot what he wanted.  He said that he felt sick just looking at the beef in his burrito so he couldn't eat it.  I guess she was considered conventionally attractive by societal standards and it looked to me that she was used to guys doing things for her because of her appearance.  Briefly, she would come with me to get lunch at local healthy market.  When I went with a male co-worker, we usually switched off or something on who drove.  She was saying she liked it better when I drove.  I had started wondering if she was taking advantage of not having to use her gas to drive herself.  Once she opened a door, and I just went through, thanking her.  On our short walk back to the office, she said if I date a girl (because having a gay co-worker makes when into if), I'll need to open the door for her.  Internally, I'm thinking, what kind of chivalry thing are we going about here?  It probably has to due with being raised AFAB and being aro ace, when I don't think about treating anyone better based on gender.  The AFAB part comes in for me because of the lack of male privilege, makes me not perceive me any better than anyone else.  But there could also be some inferiority complex in there.

 

8 hours ago, Laurann said:

I'm a feminist. Most of my friends (male, female and nb alike) are also feminists. Nobody's ever talked about their 'inner woman' and pink does not seem to be common in any of their wardrobes. For me feminism is not at all about enforcing stereotypes or hating on men, but about getting rid of gendered restrictions, making sure that people of all genders have equal opportunity and that no form of gender expression is seen as lesser than any other. Feminism is a very broad movement, and different subsections can radically disagree with each other. Maybe you've met the wrong type of feminist? I've never met anyone who is like what you guys describe @Emery. and @nerdperson777. But I've also never (consciously) met a terf, so, guess I'm lucky?

I'm not sure if I'd exactly say that I interacted with feminists.  But I've heard of two definitions of feminist.  There's the one that strives for equality of genders, and another is making female above male.  I guess in a way, I can kind of see that they might want revenge or payback for history in general.  But I'm simple.  You treat me good, I treat you good.  I have no desire to court anyone and get better treatment that way.  I don't have to deal with all of that.

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20 hours ago, nerdperson777 said:

Considering that I originally got accepted to university as an engineering major, I did feel a little guilty that I was letting girls and women down when I realized that I wasn't female.

I also felt this way at the beginning. 

 

Well, for sure there are different kinds of feminists. 

 

20 hours ago, nerdperson777 said:

She was saying she liked it better when I drove.  I had started wondering if she was taking advantage of not having to use her gas to drive herself.  Once she opened a door, and I just went through, thanking her.  On our short walk back to the office, she said if I date a girl (because having a gay co-worker makes when into if), I'll need to open the door for her. 

I also have an aquintance like that. She tries to take advantage of people and one of her excuses in being a woman. She always says she can’t do this or that. 

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nerdperson777
4 hours ago, Emery. said:

I also have an acquintance like that. She tries to take advantage of people and one of her excuses in being a woman. She always says she can’t do this or that. 

I was watching more cartoons with my friend yesterday.  There's an episode where Bloo orchestrated a slumber party at Mac's apartment without his consent and it was "boys only".  Two girls showed up demanding to be let in and one was talking about gender equality.  After he said fine, come in but stay quiet, gender equality girl said, "don't you know ladies first?"  I thought that was a little contradictory there.  I feel like some people don't realize that if all genders are equal, then there's no gender-based special treatment of opening doors or the guy lending a jacket to the girl when she's freezing in some not as warm clothing or whatever other chivalric ideas they have.

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I don't know if this is mentioned yet but I'd like to share my discovery.

There's this Japanese song called Villain and I've been listening to it for a week.

However, I actually didn't know what the song was about until just now. It's about being trans.

This person in the song feels like a villain because of how people think about trans and how they treat them, I think.

I can relate to it a lot. For example, when the person sings "I'm not a mutation, it's just who I am. and "Keeping my deviant sex secret".

Transphobic people or anyone who thinks negatively about trans are referred to as "the great villains".

 

I recommend this song or to atleast to read the english translation of the lyrics. For those who prefer it in English, I tried to find one but unfortunately, there hasn't been a great English cover out yet. The link below is the one I listen to, it's a cover. 

Spoiler

 

 

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binary suns

Oh I think he’s saying “to people who don’t even know me I am a villain”

 

good song 

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Calligraphette_Coe
On 4/7/2020 at 9:39 PM, nerdperson777 said:

I was watching more cartoons with my friend yesterday.  There's an episode where Bloo orchestrated a slumber party at Mac's apartment without his consent and it was "boys only".  Two girls showed up demanding to be let in and one was talking about gender equality.  After he said fine, come in but stay quiet, gender equality girl said, "don't you know ladies first?"  I thought that was a little contradictory there.  I feel like some people don't realize that if all genders are equal, then there's no gender-based special treatment of opening doors or the guy lending a jacket to the girl when she's freezing in some not as warm clothing or whatever other chivalric ideas they have.

And I'd bet there are lots of people who wouldn't want to give at least some of them up. And there are also people like me who have been on both sides of the fence and even then, wouldn't want a sort of sterile, one-size-fits-all gender equality. I think it's hardwired into us.

 

As embarrassing as it is to admit, I really liked the chivalry thing. I remember times in the 90s at trans get-togethers when there were some cis men there. Now keep in mind, they knew who had and hadn't had the surgery, but that didn't matter to a lot of them. So there I was in a nice outfit ( and yeah, the nicer the outfits are, the more drafty they were ), having men being courteous to me and showing me the sort of respect I never got from them when on the M side of the fence. It was all new to me, and I still have to smile over getting weak in the knees when it happened. But I liked it!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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anisotrophic

I think feminism, and indeed any movement interested in fairness for disadvantaged demographics, should be seen as seeking “equal consideration”, not literally equal treatment. (eg equal access, or lack thereof, to birth control does not have an equal impact.) One thing to think about is Rawls' theory of justice and the "veil of ignorance" approach.

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TMI

Spoiler

A positive thing with shaving "down there" is that "the thing" at least looks smaller.

 

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Ms. Carolynne
16 hours ago, Kimmie. said:

TMI

  Hide contents

A positive thing with shaving "down there" is that "the thing" at least looks smaller.

 

I know, right?  Also less bulge from the pubes, or so it seems.

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4 hours ago, Ms. Carolynne said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I know, right?  Also less bulge from the pubes, or so it seems.

 

Spoiler

Isn't it the opposite? More of it is visible.

 

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nerdperson777
On 4/13/2020 at 3:20 AM, Andrea KF said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Isn't it the opposite? More of it is visible.

 

I take it as some people are more for smaller size than visibility.  People can have different reasons for their dysphorias.  Like I'm in a top surgery group.  Some people are dysphoric about the size more than having them.  It's not uncommon for someone to say that they got a reduction than totally flat.  So I'm thinking for AMAB people, it could be that they want a smaller one rather than totally gone.  One girl I know says she doesn't mind having the body part.  Another got an orchi but is unsure about getting vaginoplasty.  So I think we have to see more perspectives than "get rid of them all".

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