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Fellow Sexuals

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uhtred
3 hours ago, Sally said:

And those asexuals who do understand it are depressed, because they so value the relationship and can't turn themselves into something they're not.   

Agreed - part of why I think mixed relationships are generally a terrible idea. 

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uhtred

I think these discussion sometimes bog down because of the different forms lack of desire for sex can take.  It can range from simply finding it a bit boring, to finding it a horrible experience (at least mentally). 

 

This complicates suggestions on what sorts of things asexuals should do. 

 

I give my wife long back rubs / massages. I don't get anything out of it directly but I enjoy it *because* she enjoys it. 

 

That is completely different from if she wanted me to do something I found horrible. 

 

In some cases asexuals (like my wife) can give very unfortunate messages. If she suggests that we "might" get to bed in a bit, but then gets caught up reading facebook and it gets "too late" I don't think she understands how hurtful it is to feel that something very important to me is less important than looking at cat pictures.   If what really happened was that she had a bought of sex-aversion, it would be far better for her to just say that. 

 

Sometimes "softening" things is worse.  I think that if you really don't want sex - say so.  Don't imply that it would have been fine, but something better came up. 

 

 

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Sally
10 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Every time there's a circumstance in which someone on the asexual spectrum or in that general ballpark is doing something which is on the face of less than good behaviour, the assumption is that there's an exculpatory explanation, not that they're a bit lazy, or selfish, or thoughtless. And by extension, partners are unreasonable for not instantly accepting this without any basis or explanation.

 

It gets a bit wearying, especially when AVEN in general makes a big deal of asexuality being an orientation, rather than having any correlation with, how can I put this... being a bit fucked up.

Then I have to ask this question, Tele, because your complaints about "AVEN" are getting pretty frequent:  Why are you here if it's so unsatisfying?   And that's a serious question; don't take it as me telling you to leave.  On other subjects, your posts are quite interesting.  

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alibali
9 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

Just now and then, it would be great if people on the asexual side of the fence could concede, without it having to be extracted out of them like blood out of a stone, that asexuals can be lazy or self centered or callous.

Token asexual here.

 

Yep I can be  lazy and have been self centred and callous on occasion. And that's affected my behaviour sometimes.

 

But none of those define me as a person.  Nor does the asexuality, other than it has affected certainly my latest life choice now I am certain.

 

But sexuals can also be lazy, self centred and callous.  One example I was shut out of where I lived once because I refused my sexual partner who liked to have sex every night. It was extreme but it was in a fit of anger on his part on one occasion. I still remember standing on the doorstep in my nightie. 

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iff

There is this quote attributed to lech walesa on laziness

 

I'm lazy. But it's the lazy people who invented the wheel and the bicycle because they didn't like walking or carrying things.

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Jetsun Milarepa

Ahh...maybe a new partner hasn't just fallen from the sky as quickly as expected so frustration still abounds. 

 

We hear enough nonsense about being f****d up. We're not. Sounds like an angry rant. Just ignore.

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ryn2
6 hours ago, uhtred said:

 

In some cases asexuals (like my wife) can give very unfortunate messages. If she suggests that we "might" get to bed in a bit, but then gets caught up reading facebook and it gets "too late" I don't think she understands how hurtful it is to feel that something very important to me is less important than looking at cat pictures.   If what really happened was that she had a bought of sex-aversion, it would be far better for her to just say that. 

 

Sometimes "softening" things is worse.  I think that if you really don't want sex - say so.  Don't imply that it would have been fine, but something better came up. 

Have you talked to her about this, and how you feel when it happens?  If you would prefer that she not mention having sex until she is actually ready to have it immediately, maybe she would be willing and able to give that a try.

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uhtred
4 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Have you talked to her about this, and how you feel when it happens?  If you would prefer that she not mention having sex until she is actually ready to have it immediately, maybe she would be willing and able to give that a try.

Yes - multiple times. She somehow doesn't get it at some very fundamental level. Maybe she just doesn't understand sexual frustration.  If sex is good, then things leading  up to sex should be good. 

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Yes - multiple times. She somehow doesn't get it at some very fundamental level. Maybe she just doesn't understand sexual frustration.  If sex is good, then things leading  up to sex should be good. 

If she’s not willing (or maybe not able, if she can’t reach a point where she’s aware she’s doing it) to stop talking that way, can you tweak it from your end?  Maybe, rather than taking her at face value and assuming you will have sex later, let it go in one ear and out the other and assume it’s meaningless small talk (i.e., you’re no more or less likely to have sex later than you would be if she’d never said anything)?

 

If she did mean it and you do have sex later, you get a pleasant surprise.  If not, it’s just another day rather than a big disappointment.

 

I have a friend who always wants to get together “sometime soon” (which is sometimes much more specific).  When she brings it up (and it’s usually her who brings it up) she sounds genuinely excited.  The reality, though, is that it actually turns into getting together (even if I try to help organize it) at most once a year.

 

For a long time I went through an upsetting cycle of excitement/letdown/sadness.  Finally I just started treating her expressions of interest the same way I would news about her sister - I listen, I’m happy she’s excited, I assume it will have zero effect on me - and it’s been a lot easier.

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uhtred
4 hours ago, ryn2 said:

If she’s not willing (or maybe not able, if she can’t reach a point where she’s aware she’s doing it) to stop talking that way, can you tweak it from your end?  Maybe, rather than taking her at face value and assuming you will have sex later, let it go in one ear and out the other and assume it’s meaningless small talk (i.e., you’re no more or less likely to have sex later than you would be if she’d never said anything)?

snip

 

Yes, that is what I do.  Sadly it means that flirting is now meaningless to me. Unless we are in bed and naked I have to not get my hopes up.  Sad, I like flirting and teasing. 

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ryn2

I’m sorry!  Some people like flirting just for the fun back-and-forth but it sounds like you enjoy it more as preliminary foreplay.

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uhtred
7 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I’m sorry!  Some people like flirting just for the fun back-and-forth but it sounds like you enjoy it more as preliminary foreplay.

I guess I should separate two types of flirting.  

 

I think flirting is fun with people who are not and are not going to be sexual partners. Just a nice game of making the other person feel desired - its harmless because its in situations where there is no expectation that anyone will act on that desire.  I do this in casual little ways quite a lot - making a game of not ever being specific or open, but giving the general impression that I'm attracted to someone (but not planning to act on that attraction). 

 

Flirting with an intimate partner is different to me. In that case its assumed that desire should already exist, and there are no barriers to acting on that desire.  In that situation I consider flirting much more directly sexual because you start out past the point where casual flirting would have already stopped. 

 

Not sure if that is making sense. 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
11 hours ago, alibali said:

It was extreme but it was in a fit of anger on his part on one occasion. I still remember standing on the doorstep in my nightie

Omg that happened to me too!! And I was the one who paid the rent for the damn house and was giving him sex almost constantly, every single time he wanted it Y_Y didn't stop me from being locked outside of my own house in the pissing rain 😕 I think I yawned while he was giving me oral. I fucking haaaaaate receiving oral but he loved giving it and would insist on it even though he knew I didn't like it. He'd try to make me pretend to enjoy it but I yawned by accident and BAM, out on the doorstep.

 

16 hours ago, uhtred said:

In some cases asexuals (like my wife) can give very unfortunate messages. If she suggests that we "might" get to bed in a bit, but then gets caught up reading facebook and it gets "too late" I don't think she understands how hurtful it is to feel that something very important to me is less important than looking at cat pictures.   If what really happened was that she had a bought of sex-aversion, it would be far better for her to just say that. 

Could this be a case of when someone thinks their words are more important than their actions? My mum, for example, is always promising my kids she'll look after them and have a fun day with them. She seems to think the mere promise should be enough, that the promise should satisfy them enough. Whenever I actually ask her if she'd want them now that they're all excited though she finds reasons why she's too busy. But she truly doesn't seem to understand that the mere promise (without intention of fulfillment) is actually crueller than if you didn't promise anything at all in the first place. Some people just truly seem to believe that an empty promise or an empty suggestion is enough Y_Y

 

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Skullery Maid
5 hours ago, ryn2 said:

 

 

I have a friend who always wants to get together “sometime soon” (which is sometimes much more specific).  When she brings it up (and it’s usually her who brings it up) she sounds genuinely excited.  The reality, though, is that it actually turns into getting together (even if I try to help organize it) at most once a year.

 

For a long time I went through an upsetting cycle of excitement/letdown/sadness.  Finally I just started treating her expressions of interest the same way I would news about her sister - I listen, I’m happy she’s excited, I assume it will have zero effect on me - and it’s been a lot easier.

I am your friend. 

 

I have mood disorders, which means my moods change, I feel them intensely, and I can't always control them. When I tell someone I want to hang out, I genuinely mean it! But, I may get struck by such horrific anxiety that I can't go. Or I'll be depressed and haven't been out of bed and literally stand in front of the mirror crying because I can't brush my hair. 

 

Only like 3 people in this world, not counting AVEN, know I'm like this. I'm incredibly good at masking behavior, and my job is fancy enough that there are several people in my life who truly believe I'm just very busy. 

 

I've stopped making and maintaining friendships. I avoid people at all costs now. I KNOW I'm going to disappoint them. I've hurt so many people, and some of them severely, and I just... can't do that anymore. We aren't entitled to anything in this world, and if I can't be a good friend I have no business interfering in people's lives. 

 

If more people were able to receive my statements like "I want to hang out next week!" more like "When I say I want to hang out next week it's because I want to hang out next week, but that doesn't mean we will actually hang out next week because I may not be able to, for reasons that have nothing to do with you, and I'm going to be drowning in guilt over it for months"... well, that would ease a lot of pressure for me and I may actually feel comfortable interacting with other humans. 

 

That's a long-winded way of saying, @ryn2, that you're very kind to adopt a new perspective on your friend's behavior.

 

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uhtred
4 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

Omg that happened to me too!! And I was the one who paid the rent for the damn house and was giving him sex almost constantly, every single time he wanted it Y_Y didn't stop me from being locked outside of my own house in the pissing rain 😕 I think I yawned while he was giving me oral. I fucking haaaaaate receiving oral but he loved giving it and would insist on it even though he knew I didn't like it. He'd try to make me pretend to enjoy it but I yawned by accident and BAM, out on the doorstep.

 

Could this be a case of when someone thinks their words are more important than their actions? My mum, for example, is always promising my kids she'll look after them and have a fun day with them. She seems to think the mere promise should be enough, that the promise should satisfy them enough. Whenever I actually ask her if she'd want them now that they're all excited though she finds reasons why she's too busy. But she truly doesn't seem to understand that the mere promise (without intention of fulfillment) is actually crueller than if you didn't promise anything at all in the first place. Some people just truly seem to believe that an empty promise or an empty suggestion is enough Y_Y

 

Kicking someone out of the house is horrible. 

 

On the next - maybe.  Or maybe she is just overly "hopeful". When she says it she may mean it - because it isn't happening *now*.  But when *now* comes around, the idea seems distasteful.   Hard to say. 

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Skullery Maid
1 minute ago, uhtred said:

On the next - maybe.  Or maybe she is just overly "hopeful". When she says it she may mean it - because it isn't happening *now*.  But when *now* comes around, the idea seems distasteful.   Hard to say. 

That's my guess. 

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CBC

All the stuff @Skullery Maid said in the post about plans and disappointing people and shit, it's true of me as well. My primary reasons are physical health ones and bad days where I can't tolerate living in my own skin in the privacy of my own home, let alone going anywhere in that state. Also just such an erratic sleep schedule that I never know where my energy levels are going to be at. And depression and thinking it's simply too much of a bother. And low self-esteem, because I assume people will regret wasting their time with me. I'm a mess. :D

 

But yeah I don't make plans with people because there's about a 75% chance (and that's being generous) that I'll cancel them. This includes my own parents and stuff. A few times they've actually turned up -- a planned visit -- and I've had to ask them to leave. Story of my life.

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Skullery Maid

It honestly makes me wonder how there are any sexuals on earth who don't understand being unable to have sex despite "loving  enough." There are things I'm unable to do for my own basic safety and wellbeing... surely I can understand why someone wouldn't be able to engage in the most emotional and intimate activity there is (or do it with someone who considers it the most emotional and intimate activity there is :P). 

 

Not wanting to live a sexless existence is one thing (highly reasonable!), but thinking everyone is lying when they can't behave exactly the way you behave, that's crazy.

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CBC
4 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

It honestly makes me wonder how there are any sexuals on earth who don't understand being unable to have sex despite "loving  enough." There are things I'm unable to do for my own basic safety and wellbeing... surely I can understand why someone wouldn't be able to engage in the most emotional and intimate activity there is (or do it with someone who considers it the most emotional and intimate activity there is :P). 

I assume it's kinda the same trait that doesn't allow people to understand certain aspects of mental illness. Like sometimes you just fucking can't.

 

Also I meant to add, I don't have a fancy job (14 years and counting of disability assistance because of shitty mental health, fuck yeahhhh! 8)<_<), but I'm also good at masking reality. I just don't bother getting close enough to most people such that they know the reality, and I'm pretty sure a lot of them straight-up think I'm a huge inconsiderate asshole or that I dislike them. I don't have the energy to counter that, so I've just accepted that they'll think whatever.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
24 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

it's true of me as well. 

*Raises hand* Me too Y_Y

 

I've just given up on developing friendships, pretty much completely. I know I can't maintain them, even if I genuinely like the person. I often just can't reply to PMs, and in person.. there's an emotional wall which literally stops me from being able to open the inbox sometimes, let alone actually formulating a response. And in person there would be at least 340 days out of the year I wouldn't be up to seeing anyone, soooo... I'm a bit of a lost cause really, heh.

 

I'm firmly entrenched in the 'unable to maintain friendships for the most part' crowd :P

 

15 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

It honestly makes me wonder how there are any sexuals on earth who don't understand being unable to have sex despite "loving  enough." There are things I'm unable to do for my own basic safety and wellbeing... surely I can understand why someone wouldn't be able to engage in the most emotional and intimate activity there is (or do it with someone who considers it the most emotional and intimate activity there is :P). 

 

Not wanting to live a sexless existence is one thing (highly reasonable!), but thinking everyone is lying when they can't behave exactly the way you behave, that's crazy.

Yep, it's baffling to me too. I mean, not understanding initially is one thing. But after many, many people of all kinds of different sexual orientations and backgrounds have tried explaining it to you and you're still sure everyone is lying about not wanting sex as much as you, or at the very least, those who don't want sex are trying to manipulate others into a sexless existence. Baffling. *sigh* 

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CBC
9 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

I often just can't reply to PMs

I have two people -- Skullz being one of them, my husband-former-partner-dude being the other -- whose communication doesn't make me feel stressed upon receiving a message (obvs I don't PM on AVEN with them though haha), unless of course there's some specific interpersonal stress going on (and then it's the conflict, not who they are). It's an anxiety thing that I don't quite understand. It was at its worst maybe... 2-3 years ago? Lately there have been a few friends I've gotten a little closer to whose own communication style doesn't seem pressure-y, so whilst we're not super close in the same way, I don't feel too overwhelmed. I've been a little better with replying to stuff, and honestly it's made me realise that I do indeed need some amount of social contact. But as a whole, I'm very bad at replying.

 

I'm also bloody dreadful at being the one initiating contact. Definitely a self-worth problem.

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Skullery Maid
18 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

I just don't bother getting close enough to most people such that they know the reality, and I'm pretty sure a lot of them straight-up think I'm a huge inconsiderate asshole or that I dislike them. I don't have the energy to counter that, so I've just accepted that they'll think whatever.

Oh yes this, absolutely. I prefer people think I'm an asshole so they leave me alone... I can't let people close or they'll know, and god forbid anyone know. My ego can handle people thinking I'm a dickbag better than them knowing I'm just messed up in the brain. 

 

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CBC
7 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

My ego can handle people thinking I'm a dickbag better than them knowing I'm just messed up in the brain. 

Guess who long ago figured out that you're messed up in the brain and not a dickbag? :P 

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Skullery Maid
1 minute ago, Ceebs. said:

Guess who long ago figured out that you're messed up in the brain and not a dickbag? :P 

To be fair, I put a LOT of effort into changing your mind. ^_^

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
14 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

I have two people -- Skullz being one of them, my husband-former-partner-dude being the other -- whose communication doesn't make me feel stressed upon receiving a message (obvs I don't PM on AVEN with them though haha), unless of course there's some specific interpersonal stress going on (and then it's the conflict, not who they are). It's an anxiety thing that I don't quite understand. It was at its worst maybe... 2-3 years ago? Lately there have been a few friends I've gotten a little closer to whose own communication style doesn't seem pressure-y, so whilst we're not super close in the same way, I don't feel too overwhelmed. I've been a little better with replying to stuff, and honestly it's made me realise that I do indeed need some amount of social contact. But as a whole, I'm very bad at replying.

 

I'm also bloody dreadful at being the one initiating contact. Definitely a self-worth problem.

I'm much better with impersonal stuff. So like, bitching about issues on AVEN with a couple of other people in PM :P gossiping, that all works for me and I'm good until my attention wanes (which happens very quickly).. but when people are trying to have a real convo with me, that's when I start getting overhelemed. There are a couple of people in the world whom I can talk to without issue for the most part (one being a girl from AVEN called Valar Morgulus who I've talked to since 2013 and we often watch shows and movies together on call and stuff) but yeah.. She understands that sometimes I can't respond for months and just leaves me alone when that happens. She won't keep sending me messages or bugging me, she just waits until I eventually get back to her if I do. And I do the same for her!!! So it works.  That's my downfall mostly. If I can't respond it turns out I get pushed further away if the person keeps on sending me more and more messages. If however they just leave me, and eventually I get back to them, I feel ready for contact much faster than I otherwise would if they keep spamming me with messages (I just lose all ability to reply in that instance). People rarely work like that though and would consider my behaviour obnoxious at best, hence why it's best I just avoid people and avoid all human contact. Makes life a lot easier :P

 

I'm really happy you have a couple of people you're able to keep up contact with though, that's so important for emotional wellbeing sometimes I think. :3 

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CBC
1 minute ago, Skullery Maid said:

To be fair, I put a LOT of effort into changing your mind. ;)

Mm, I know. Effort appreciated muchly. 😘

 

Lol we're gonna gross people out in this thread too. 😂

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CBC
1 minute ago, Ficto. said:

So like, bitching about issues on AVEN with a couple of other people in PM :P 

Hahaha I've noticed. :P 

 

I'm good at, like... being friendly to the cashier at the grocery store by making dad jokes. Or asking nerdy questions of the lab tech who's drawing my blood. It kind of weirds me out, I come across as very open and friendly hahaha. Like wtf.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Skullery Maid said:

That's a long-winded way of saying, @ryn2, that you're very kind to adopt a new perspective on your friend's behavior.

I’m 100% confident she actually does care about me and want to get together when she says it.  She has some mental health challenges (a bit different than yours), as do I, and that certainly factors in.  I just had to frame the whole thing differently for myself, so it wouldn’t bother me, and now it doesn’t.  :)

 

Mental health issues in all their many permutations are no picnic.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Skullery Maid said:

That's my guess. 

Same.

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Sally
15 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

Mm, I know. Effort appreciated muchly. 😘

 

Lol we're gonna gross people out in this thread too. 😂

Well, no, but I just realized I feel rather fandom-ish for liking every single one of yours and Skulls' comments.  So I'm going to stop and expect both of you to assume I approve.  

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