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ryn2
10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But I'm explicitly not saying 'based on what it would mean if I did the same thing'.

What would you be basing your assessment of credible effort on, if not your interpretation of what you observe?

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Skullery Maid
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

If they've said they don't have any particular discomfort and still just... don't.... do anything palpable, I don't see the logic of interpreting them doing something they were going to do anything as showing equal effort.

 

And if they're not willing to make an effort, yep, I will read something into how they feel about me into that. 

Well sure, as a practical matter I think that's wise. You don't have to disagree with their stated feelings though... It's sufficient to just say "for whatever reasons and regardless of the challenges you're experiencing, this isn't how I want my relationship to be" and bounce. 

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ryn2
8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

If they've said they don't have any particular discomfort and still just... don't.... do anything palpable, I don't see the logic of interpreting them doing something they were going to do instead, as showing equal effort.

 

And if they're not willing to make an effort, yep, I will read something into how they feel about me into that. 

That ultimately has nothing to do with their depth of feeling and everything to do with how the relationship does not meet your needs.

 

It’s not wrong to end a relationship that’s not meeting your needs; you just can’t know (from your needs not being met) whether or not they actually care less or more than you do.

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Telecaster68
8 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

What would you be basing your assessment of credible effort on, if not your interpretation of what you observe?

Well, based on a true story, if putting a reminder in your phone to hug your partner is too much effort despite them asking, I think it's a fair interpretation to take that as really not giving much of a fuck, however many small presents you bring in.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

That ultimately has nothing to do with their depth of feeling and everything to do with how the relationship does not meet your needs.

But depth of feeling is surely a pretty usual requirement of a relationship in order it meets needs, isn't it?

 

How many people would be happy in a relationship which didn't involve their partner having deep feelings for them?

 

Interesting though... yet again, AVEN challenges my assumptions about a relationship.

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Well, based on a true story, if putting a reminder in your phone to hug your partner is too much effort despite them asking, I think it's a fair interpretation to take that as really not giving much of a fuck, however many small presents you bring in.

Whereas I would say “maybe it’s a lot harder for them to do than you think, but if you really need those hugs it’s probably not the right relationship for you.”

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Telecaster68

In what world is putting a reminder on your phone hard?

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

But depth of feeling is surely a pretty usual requirement of a relationship in order it meets needs, isn't it?

 

How many people would be happy in a relationship which didn't involve their partner having deep feelings for them?

 

Interesting though... yet again, AVEN challenges my assumptions about a relationship.

That’s the opposite of what I was trying to say, which was that your partner could have very deep feelings for you despite not demonstrating that to you in what you feel is an acceptable or workable way.

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Telecaster68

So... they have deep feelings for you, which they don't naturally show in the same way as you'd expect.

 

There's a conversation in which this difference becomes clear, and you suggest they at least try to go some way to show these deep feelings in a way that you do experience as love/caring.

 

They flat refuse to do this.

 

At this point, I'm starting to question whether those strong feelings exist, because they won't even try to do something different when they know the effect it's having. The point is willingness or otherwise to make an effort, not whether love is shown in one way or another.

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

In what world is putting a reminder on your phone hard?

A lot of the time when someone just can’t deliver on seemingly simple things, those things are actually quite hard for them (often emotionally).

 

Like, the presents-and-events former friend.  She could not clean her bathroom mirror, no matter how much her SO nagged, showed her how, etc.  She just could not seem to get it done.  Two spritzes of glass cleaner and a quick wipe once a week.  Couldn’t do it.

 

In therapy it turns out her mother was abusive over chores as a child, making her clean the mirror until her fingers bled.

 

Not saying that explains the phone reminder situation, but something similar could.

 

Either way, you don’t get the hug and it’s a problem.  That’s the part you can control.

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

At this point, I'm starting to question whether those strong feelings exist, because they won't even try to do something different when they know the effect it's having. 

All you know from this is that something out there influences them more than your request does.

 

That may be unacceptable to you, and that’s your choice.  It doesn’t speak to the strength of their feelings.

 

It’s reasonable to say “for this relationship to work for me, I need xyz” (and then take the consequences, obviously).  It’s not reasonable to say “if you really loved me you would xyz.”

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

A lot of the time when someone just can’t deliver on seemingly simple things, those things are actually quite hard for them (often emotionally).

Every time there's a circumstance in which someone on the asexual spectrum or in that general ballpark is doing something which is on the face of less than good behaviour, the assumption is that there's an exculpatory explanation, not that they're a bit lazy, or selfish, or thoughtless. And by extension, partners are unreasonable for not instantly accepting this without any basis or explanation.

 

It gets a bit wearying, especially when AVEN in general makes a big deal of asexuality being an orientation, rather than having any correlation with, how can I put this... being a bit fucked up.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

It doesn’t speak to the strength of their feelings.

It says 'something in my life is more important than you'. Which does, in fact, speak to the strength of their feelings.

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ryn2
7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Every time there's a circumstance in which someone on the asexual spectrum or in that general ballpark is doing something which is on the face of less than good behaviour, the assumption is that there's an exculpatory explanation, not that they're a bit lazy, or selfish, or thoughtless. And by extension, partners are unreasonable for not instantly accepting this without any basis or explanation.

 

It gets a bit wearying, especially when AVEN in general makes a big deal of asexuality being an orientation, rather than having any correlation with, how can I put this... being a bit fucked up.

If you’re going by the results, rather than by the underlying rationale, what difference does it make whether they’re lazy and uncaring versus justified in their (in)action?  The underlying rationale only matters if you’re willing to give someone’s behavior the benefit of the doubt based on it.

 

If your barometer is the outcome, your choice is going to be the same regardless of the “why.”

 

That’s not a judgment on your choice.  If you can’t (or won’t) tolerate something, you don’t have to justify it.

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ryn2
17 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It says 'something in my life is more important than you'. Which does, in fact, speak to the strength of their feelings.

All it says about their feelings is that, yes, you are not the absolute most important thing in their life.  That doesn’t mean they don’t have very strong feelings for you.  You could be right up there in second place by a tiny margin.

 

If you believe that your partner has to place you above every other thing that influences their life, all the time, no matter what... then, yes, it would say their feelings aren’t strong enough to meet your requirements.

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ryn2
24 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Every time there's a circumstance in which someone on the asexual spectrum or in that general ballpark is doing something which is on the face of less than good behaviour, the assumption is that there's an exculpatory explanation,

Just to clarify, my stories about crossing the street/bigotry, presents, and washing the mirror were true stories about those specific topics.  They were not metaphors for sex.

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nanogretchen4

I think in general asexuals and sexuals are not compatible and should not be together in romantic relationships. There could be rare exceptions, but it's a good general guideline. The reason they shouldn't be together is severe, permanent incompatibility. I do not think either the asexual or the sexual should make horrible sacrifices that ruin their quality of life to be together. They should probably just go their separate ways on the basis of incompatibility.

 

It is not reasonable and healthy to expect your partner to have nothing in their life more important than you. You expect them to rank you above their own well being, all of their family and friends, their values, their life goals, even their children? Are you sure you want to sacrifice that much for them? Saying if someone loved you they would do something they clearly don't want to do makes no sense. Do you love them enough not to pressure them into doing things they don't want to do? Like the Eiffel Tower example. Maybe your partner has a severe phobia of heights that it would take years of therapy to overcome. It would be cruel to expect them to indulge your preference for going up in the Eiffel Tower together. Sex is obviously that level of awful or worse for some asexuals. The solution is not to guilt them in to sex. The solution is nearly always to break up and find someone with a compatible sexual orientation.

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alibali
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

If they've said they don't have any particular discomfort and still just... don't.... do anything palpable, I don't see the logic of interpreting them doing something they were going to do instead, as showing equal effort.

 

And if they're not willing to make an effort, yep, I will read something into how they feel about me into that. 

I'm getting slightly confused by this discussion. Do you mean that the sexual partner knowing their asexual partner is suffering in order for the sexual to have (presumably) enjoyable sex proves that the asexual loves the sexual?? I find that slightly disturbing.  I'm sure I have made it known that I used to be a willing and not repulsed asexual but expectations like what I have just described ended up making me repulsed.

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ryn2
10 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

It is not reasonable and healthy to expect your partner to have nothing in their life more important than you. You expect them to rank you above their own well being, all of their family and friends, their values, their life goals, even their children? Are you sure you want to sacrifice that much for them?

*nods*

 

”You’re everything to me,” “I would die for you,” “there’s literally nothing I wouldn’t do for you,” and the like all sound wonderfully romantic... but they’re rarely true and generally shouldn’t be.

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Telecaster68

No, not above everything. But important enough to put yourself out for, particularly if the alternative is the person you love most on the world being miserable. 

 

Things aren't all or nothing, and this turning everything into extremes and strawmen is getting irritating. 

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Things aren't all or nothing, and this turning everything into extremes and strawmen is getting irritating. 

Um, you were the one who said:

 

3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

It says 'something in my life is more important than you'. Which does, in fact, speak to the strength of their feelings.

Doesn’t that count as “extremes”?

 

Obviously no one here knows your soon-to-be-ex as well as you do.  You know better than we do how much she might or might not have felt for you, recently or long ago.  You know more than we do about how she refused to meet you halfway and why.  Maybe she is 100% in the wrong.

 

None of that means that everyone - or even most people - who struggle(s) to deliver what their partner wants in the way their partner wants it isn’t trying, doesn’t have sufficiently strong feelings, etc.

 

In the end, if two people aren’t compatible, does it matter whose fault it is?  Why?  Does anyone have to be at fault?

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

But important enough to put yourself out for, particularly if the alternative is the person you love most on the world being miserable. 

Again, what comprises putting yourself out?  You can work really hard at something and still not succeed (or even really get started) from the other person’s point of view.

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anisotrophic

I feel like people are painting each other into extremes here. If someone is an asshole and asexual, it doesn't mean the assholitude is justified by asexuality -- nor does it mean aces are naturally assholes.

 

I don't think it's wrong to expect some responsibilities in relationships. I think this implies stuff like empathy and respect, not stuff like sexual entitlement.

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Doesn’t that count as “extremes”?

Taken out of context.

 

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

 if two people aren’t compatible, does it matter whose fault it is?  Why?  Does anyone have to be at fault?

No, it doesn't. But on AVEN, it is never the asexual's fault, unless a pissed off sexual really, really nails it down beyond any wriggle room for edge cases and amazingly unlikely combinations of factors which would let the asexual off any kind of responsibility. Often these involve the asexual being either extra sensitive to everything under the sun (like, for instance, merely knowing their partner likes sex); or extraordinarily insensitive (like having no idea their partner likes sex); sometimes at one and the same time. And they can never be expected to have been aware of something they've managed to not be aware of, or act differently, or try harder, or just be nicer, more empathetic people.

 

Seriously, if you can find one example of asexuals jumping all over another asexual trying to explain to them how their sexual partners apparent bad behaviour is actually totally okay and justifiable, I'll retract that. I can find many of asexuals explaining asexuals' bad behaviour as okay and justifiable.

 

Just now and then, it would be great if people on the asexual side of the fence could concede, without it having to be extracted out of them like blood out of a stone, that asexuals can be lazy or self centered or callous.

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James121
7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Just now and then, it would be great if people on the asexual side of the fence could concede, without it having to be extracted out of them like blood out of a stone, that asexuals can be lazy or self centered or callous.

There’s different rules here

 

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ryn2
49 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Taken out of context.

Well, yes, but you took much of what I said out of context as well.  How is that different?

 

Regarding the rest, I wondered “aloud” whether differences in ability to connect verbally might account for why 1) some couples/individuals rely more on sex to connect, and/or 2) some mixed couples fare better than others.  None of that was ace-focused, sexual-blaming, or accusatory.  Nor was it intended to get at why your former wife might not be willing to set reminders to hug you.

 

I’m not sure how or why that topic turned into a discussion on how “aces are never to blame for anything on AVEN.”

 

Anyone can be lazy, self-centered, and/or callous.  I was trying to make the point that we can’t know they are solely by looking in isolation at their successes and failures as perceived by their partners, friends, etc.  I wasn’t defending aces; I was offering an alternative explanation for the doings of anyone who has ever failed to deliver on something their partner wanted. That’s probably at least half of every couple out there.

 

I’m not trying to make excuses for your wife...  I know nothing about her beyond what little you’ve said here since I joined.

 

~

 

One thing did stand out to me as contradictory, though.  On one hand you want to be with a partner who is both into you and genuinely enjoys and connects through sex.  On the other, you value actions someone doesn’t enjoy personally (and thus does as a sacrifice, because it makes you happy) above those they may do for you but also personally enjoy.

 

I’m not sure how that can work.

 

It sounds more like what you’re

devaluing is people liking things for what you consider the wrong reasons?  I’m not sure.

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Telecaster68

I think I'll just stop banging my head against the wall now. 

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think I'll just stop banging my head against the wall now. 

Good, ‘cos it’s getting pretty late there.

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ryn2

Genuine question:  do you consider me ace because you consider your wife ace and some things I’ve said about my relationship with sex remind you of things she’s said or done?

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Sally
10 hours ago, uhtred said:

For many sexuals, if their sex life decreases, so does their feelings of romance and love.   It can cause a relationship to become a sort of dry roommate arrangement,  rather than a passionate loving one.   Some asexuals don't understand this and wonder "what is wrong - why does he / she seem so distant?"  

And those asexuals who do understand it are depressed, because they so value the relationship and can't turn themselves into something they're not.   

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