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Fellow Sexuals

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Apostle
On 12/21/2018 at 1:34 PM, Serran said:

  

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Apostle
On 12/21/2018 at 1:51 PM, ryn2 said:

 

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Telecaster68

You said men don't buy clothes because they don't have much of a choice presented in shops. So if there was more choice they'd buy more clothes, presumably.

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uhtred
12 hours ago, Ficto. said:

snip

 

But yeah it certainly doesn't seem 'domineering' to ask that a man only have sex with me when I myself am ready for it so I can enjoy it properly. I'm merely stating my needs so as not to end up getting used and any man who would potentially be in a relationship with me will be someone who not only is capable of wanting the same, but actively agrees that yes it's important that the woman want the sex as well so she can enjoy it too if it's going to happen!!

 

Of course I'm not saying that the guy isn't allowed to not be in the mood when I am ready for sex, if he's too tired or whatever then that's absolutely okay and I can just masturbate. But in my experience with sexual men they often get really turned on very quickly if the woman they love is touching herself all wet and ready asking them to come and help her orgasm :P That's one of the beautiful things about male sexual arousal - if the lady is ready it's often very easy for her to get the man ready as well. Doesn't work quite so easily the other way around a lot of the time though (unfortunately. Believe me @Apostle my life would have been a lot easier if I could want and enjoy sex because a man was ready for it!)

 

snip

This can get much trickier than it seems at first glance.   I'm fairly typical sexual, my wife near-asexual. Obviously we can't have sex when she doesn't feel like it - which is most of the time.  We of course can't engage in sexual acts that she fines distasteful, unpleasant, etc.     OTOH, I am usually at least willing to have sex, if not always eager, and there are a very wide variety of sexual activities that I am happy to do, even if I don't especially enjoy them. 

 

That asymmetry in desire though leads to a tremendous imbalance in our sex life.   Sex ends up being when she wants and what she wants - she effectively has 100% control of our sex life.   I can turn her down, but with sex so rare, I almost never do  (since turning her down might mean months before another chance).  Even though I'm the sexual in the relationship, I can end up feeling like a sex-toy: taken out and used when she feels horny, then put back in the drawer. 

 

Even though I see how it comes about, I still resent it and feel a bit used.    I may be "ok" with sex all the time, and as you said, many men can get physically aroused fairly easily - but there are times when I very much am interested in sex, and other times where it just sort of meh. 

 

She just seem me as "always" wanting sex, and I think really doesn't understand that levels of desire, and activities desired can change. 

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ryn2
2 hours ago, Apostle said:

How do you know? That comment has no basis at all unless you can back it up with evidence.

We shall have to agree to disagree then.

Why would we agree to disagree on this one?  You said none of the men you know shop as much as much as the women do.  I said my arguments did not negate the possibility this is true.

 

So I guess my basis for this is that you claim it to be true?

 

Did you miss the “none of this”?  I was saying your male friends could shop less than your female friends.  Since I don’t know your friends I was deferring to your knowledge of their behavior.

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anisotrophic

This clothing discussion is funny 'cause a transfem I know was a bit horrified at the expensive and crappy quality of women's clothes. And I'm like, "yeah, I really don't miss that." (transmasc/transfem discussions are interesting ones...)

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ms. mortricia

I'm joining the thread late (and haven't read it all, by any means), but am quite interested in the exchange about 20 pages back.  Here are just a few quotes from page 67 (sorry to take them out of context; this is just a small sampling of what piqued my interest):

 

@Apostle: I can say I love my SO but that doesn't mean it is romantic.

@ApostleHow can 'love' be too broad? [...] Romance is just a fantasy word as most people would probably argue. Romance is a word for escapism from the real world.

@ryn2: What wording would you use to try to explain to someone how you feel differently about your wife than you do your mom, your sister, or your terrier?

@Apostle: If I said to someone I love my children I doubt anyone would think that I loved them romantically, or sexually for that matter. But they would know exactly what I mean.

@anamikanon: I can find something romantic without loving. I can love something/one without much romance to it.  But generally, if I say "romantic love", in my mind there will be an image of that love as something observably/visibly/significantly loving in a manner suited to intimate partners.  This may be related with different people associating with words differently.

 

I hadn't separated the ideas of sexual and romantic attraction myself until coming across that possible distinction on Aven maybe 7 or 8 years ago (maybe longer; I can't remember; I've been on and off the site since 2005).  Given my own experience it seemed a useful distinction to make, but as anamikanon says, different words mean different things to different people, so I suppose I'm still pondering it all.

 

I'm not completely sure of my own sexual orientation, although for now I feel most comfortable referring to myself as a bi-romantic asexual.  I know that I am someone who can fall deeply in love (or at least I could in the past), and I know that that kind of love feels significantly different than what I feel for my friends.

 

I fell deeply, madly, and passionately in love with my second husband in 1994.  We had an immediate connection from our very first date.  I knew I had never been in love like this (though I had been in love plenty), so it came as a shock over time to realize that I still, still found sex silly and boring.  How could this be?  It was so disconcerting!  I passionately loved this man, I thrilled at the sound of his voice, my heart raced as I got closer to home anytime I was away.  Every cell in my body felt electrified by knowing him, touching him, sleeping with him (our heads on one pillow every night for almost two decades, limbs entwined).  I did the sex thing (I am not sex-averse), but could not understand why I didn't get more out of it.  In fact, I got less than nothing, as sex felt like a waste of time.

 

I first heard about asexuality in 2005 when I read an article in the Salt Lake City Weekly.  The feelings and experiences described by people in the article so closely resembled my own--talk about light bulbs going on!  So many things fell into place, and as I kept reading and learning more about myself I shared some of that with my husband.  We had known we were not sexually compatible, and had had issues around that, but learning about asexuality solidified things for me and made quite a difference for both of us.  After that it still took another 7 or 8 years of trying to negotiate that part of our life before we decided to part (and even after that we stayed roommates for another 3 1/2 years, though we no longer shared a pillow).

 

It was from Aven that I eventually heard about the idea of romantic attraction as separate from sexual attraction.  This idea really resonated with me, as it seemed to describe how I had felt about my husband.  I was definitely attracted to him in a way I wasn't attracted to others, but I was not sexually attracted (and realized I had probably never been sexually attracted to anyone), so I did feel a need to have a word for that kind of attraction that is different from other kinds of love.  "Romantic" works well for me for now, but I feel open to modifying that as I study and learn more.

 

--pickles

 

PS. To those saying the distinction between friend love and romantic love is wanting to lay in bed with someone, I say it isn't so!  I have had (and still have) friends I sleep in bed with when staying overnight with them.  We talk for hours and then fall asleep!)

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ryn2
1 hour ago, pickles mcgee said:

I'm not completely sure of my own sexual orientation, although for now I feel most comfortable referring to myself as a bi-romantic asexual.  I know that I am someone who can fall deeply in love (or at least I could in the past), and I know that that kind of love feels significantly different than what I feel for my friends.

 

I fell deeply, madly, and passionately in love with my second husband in 1994.  We had an immediate connection from our very first date.  I knew I had never been in love like this (though I had been in love plenty), so it came as a shock over time to realize that I still, still found sex silly and boring.  How could this be?  It was so disconcerting!  I passionately loved this man, I thrilled at the sound of his voice, my heart raced as I got closer to home anytime I was away.  Every cell in my body felt electrified by knowing him, touching him, sleeping with him (our heads on one pillow every night for almost two decades, limbs entwined).  I did the sex thing (I am not sex-averse), but could not understand why I didn't get more out of it.  In fact, I got less than nothing, as sex felt like a waste of time.

100% same, except heteroromantic.

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alibali
8 hours ago, ryn2 said:

100% same, except heteroromantic.

And me. Although I have changed to being completely aromantic now. Although I think that is more because I have accepted i am not going to find anyone with whom to find a relationship so any feelings i may have for individual (men) get shot down asap.

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Apostle
On 12/21/2018 at 4:01 PM, uhtred said:

 

 

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Apostle said:

I think you may be making the situation worse by having sex in a partner dominated way and to virtually having you begging for any intimacy. It's making you a totally emasculated man and you need to realise this sooner than later. 

 

What - in your view - would be a more suitably masculine approach for uhtred to pursue?

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Apostle
On 1/7/2019 at 1:24 PM, ryn2 said:

 

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uhtred
2 hours ago, Apostle said:

I think you may be making the situation worse by having sex in a partner dominated way and to virtually having you begging for any intimacy. It's making you a totally emasculated man and you need to realise this sooner than later. 

 

So what do you recommend?  Do I turn her down for sex when she offers, even though I do want it?  That is my only lever.  We obviously can't have sex when she doesn't want it.   If I insist on only having sex if I initiate, we will never have sex - which would be fine with her.  

 

I can divorce, but she has full control of our sex life because she can always say no and she is happy to do completely without sex. 

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uhtred
16 minutes ago, Apostle said:

Just give up trying to have sex. It's clearly on his mind all the time otherwise he wouldn't be posting, would he?

My SO is by far a better person for me not having any intimacy with her as she now knows I am not pursuing an agenda anymore.

That is my compromise in my situation, although it doesn't suit me sexually at least the rest of my life is good. It may not work for him but he may want to try it and see what reaction he gets? After all, there is a saying that goes like this:

Sex is alright but there's nothing like the real thing! Ha Ha!👋

I can give up "trying", but she will still initiate once in a while.  Do I turn her down?  Until this very recent vacation, I hadn't asked for or hinted at sex in at least 6 months.  

 

What I can't change is that when we have sex I'm generally happy, and when we don't I'm generally unhappy

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ryn2

It sounds like, yes, apostle is suggesting taking over the decision of whether the relationship will be sexless or not (which you can only do by making it sexless).  That would mean not reminding her it’s been a while or commenting on other couples, and also turning her down if she initiates despite your not reminding her.  The downside would be zero sex instead of rare sex; the upside would be no longer being at someone else’s mercy (building hope and getting those hopes dashed).

 

Typing that raised a question in my mind, though.  Does your wife ever initiate sex if you don’t mention that it’s been a while/that seeing other couples makes you sad/etc.?  If not, that could really still fall under you initiating in a broader sense.  She may be the one actually suggesting having sex now (verbally or non-verbally) but the idea is yours.

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Apostle
On 1/7/2019 at 3:17 PM, uhtred said:

 

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Apostle
On 1/7/2019 at 4:04 PM, ryn2 said:

 

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Apostle
On 1/7/2019 at 3:17 PM, uhtred said:

 

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ryn2
2 hours ago, Apostle said:

My wife has never in our entire life together ever initiated sex.

Sorry, it was uhtred I was asking, as he’s said his wife will only have sex if she initiates.

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uhtred
5 hours ago, Apostle said:

Yes, but I can see that you are suffering because of the situation you are in, hence my statement. It is a possible way out and it is a really big compromise on your part but if you wish to remain in your relationship without feeling as if you are a slave to her demands then that is a way forward. 

Would she accept that you had sex outside of your relationship? If not, what are the consequences?

Its not that simple. I'm not "suffering" overall - I'm actually quite happy overall, I'm just unhappy about our sex life. (which is important but  not the only important thing).  

 

She would not accept sex outside of the marriage (we have friends who are poly and my wife has made her feelings very clear without my ever asking).

 

When I look at my options, I believe my life and her life are both better if I stay, despite the lack of sex. 

 

 

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Apostle
On 1/8/2019 at 4:24 PM, uhtred said:

 

 

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Apostle
On 1/8/2019 at 1:23 PM, ryn2 said:

Sorry, it was uhtred I was asking, as he’s said his wife will only have sex if she initiates.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Apostle said:

That's quite 'slave' like though, isn't it?

To have someone at their beck and call is quite medieval in my eyes. What happened to equality?

Well, I guess that would be up to uhtred (as to whether their arrangement is okay with him or not).  He hasn’t mentioned that she wouldn’t accept a refusal from him, as far as I recall.

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starweb
On 12/20/2018 at 2:44 AM, Ficto. said:

 

 

delete

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GoneForGood
1 hour ago, Apostle said:

That's quite 'slave' like though, isn't it?

To have someone at their beck and call is quite medieval in my eyes. What happened to equality?

It is only slavery if he has no choice to say no and no ability to leave.

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Winged Whisperer
On 1/8/2019 at 7:54 PM, uhtred said:

Its not that simple. I'm not "suffering" overall - I'm actually quite happy overall, I'm just unhappy about our sex life. (which is important but  not the only important thing).  

 

She would not accept sex outside of the marriage (we have friends who are poly and my wife has made her feelings very clear without my ever asking).

 

When I look at my options, I believe my life and her life are both better if I stay, despite the lack of sex. 

It's situations like this that are actually the hardest and most confusing. Things aren't bad enough for people to freely let go, and yet there's a degree of sucks to it too. Being in a similar predicament I really don't know either. Best of luck to you man.

 

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Winged Whisperer
10 minutes ago, starweb said:

It comes close to the old argument 'you just haven't had good sex'.

That's a legit possibility though. It's a bit cruel to keep pushing it on an asexual, but it's also a real possibility out there for a lot of people. It just shouldn't be generalized to deny people's experiences. Like if someone tells me that, I'll reply "I really doubt that's the case, no I just don't feel any connection to sex", and if they insist with that argument, then yeah they're getting out of bounds.

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starweb
On 1/14/2019 at 9:51 AM, Winged Whisperer said:

 

delete

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Apostle
On 1/14/2019 at 2:36 PM, starweb said:

 

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Apostle
On 1/14/2019 at 2:38 PM, MakeLoveNotWar said:

 

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