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Fellow Sexuals

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ryn2
14 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I've never seen anyone apart from asexuals try to assert that explicit or not, there's no expectation that sex is part of a marriage.

I’m not disputing expectations.  Apostle has - and I think I’ve seen at least one other person who’s - stated several times that he and his wife entered into a legal contract which included sex.  I initially thought that was just expectations/interpretation but have subsequently done more research and found some marriage vows/contracts actually do directly include sex, children, or both.

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ryn2
7 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

If a partner really doesn't like sex, why can't they say it? If the other partner loves them and won't leave,

Sometimes, it’s because they don’t think (sometimes justified, sometimes not) the other partner *will* continue to love/be in love with them and *will* not leave.

 

Other times it’s heard as a criticism of the other partner’s skill/technique/etc., which then either turns into a fight or results in being asked to do it a lot more to find a better way.

 

Good, effective communication on topics where people feel guilt and shame is difficult and rare.

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Telecaster68
5 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I’m not disputing expectations

Does it matter what's explicitly stated in the wedding vows then?

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LeChat
32 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I've never seen anyone apart from asexuals try to assert that explicit or not, there's no expectation that sex is part of a marriage.

Do you mean someone like this? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shameless-woman/201205/love-and-the-little-or-no-sex-marriage

 

45 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

This is another thing which varies by geography and by religion (or lack thereof).  The legal marriage contract in my country/state/county does not include language about providing or rightfully expecting sex.  I have seen religious vows that do specifically include requirements around sex and children.

 

It’s possible we keep disagreeing about this because we literally signed different things.

Hmm. I didn't know that there were some religious vows that included a "requirement" around sex and children. I wasn't brought up with any religion, so it's the topic I know least about. With royal weddings (and fictional movies) shown on T.V., I didn't hear any phrasing during the ceremony about the couple being required to have sex and/or children.

 

Some sexuals are infertile or have (or eventually have) medical problems (or who have intimacy issues, due to experience past abuse) that would inhibit or effect those "requirements," which seems a bit sad and unfair, to me, for religious doctrines to still require it of them.

 

I didn't think it was a requirement because I didn't grow up hearing my relatives discuss sex as though it was extremely important to them; they didn't mention it at all and seemed okay with focusing on other things in their lives. School sex ed classes mentioned it, though.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

Sometimes, it’s because they don’t think (sometimes justified, sometimes not) the other partner *will* continue to love/be in love with them and *will* not leave.

 

Other times it’s heard as a criticism of the other partner’s skill/technique/etc., which then either turns into a fight or results in being asked to do it a lot more to find a better way.

 

Good, effective communication on topics where people feel guilt and shame is difficult and rare.

Isn't this what someone was saying early about 'just leaving' is seldom that simple once money, families and kids get involved? And when it comes down to it, it's perfectly viable for the asexual to just close down conversations because their partner just isn't going to leave, and they know it.

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ryn2
15 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

Is it too demeaning for the sexual partner? Too disgusting for the asexual partner?

In my experience it’s more that people react very personally to not being able to satisfy one another “properly.”  Some people are not confident enough sexually to “fail” to pleasure a partner and take that as a matter-of-fact problem both can tackle rather than as a self-esteem hit.

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Telecaster68
12 minutes ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Do you mean someone like this?

The whole point of that article is that sex is expected, and anyway they're having sex once a month. Hardly one partner deciding sex is no longer necessary and claiming it was never part of the deal.

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alibali
7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The whole point of that article is that sex is expected, and anyway they're having sex once a month. Hardly one partner deciding sex is no longer necessary and claiming it was never part of the deal.

That’s certainly the way it reads to me too. However it also strengthens my point that psychologists even don’t seem to recognise that someone can be happy with no desire even in a relationship. Hence it can be very difficult to realise that it’s not something “curable”

 

I don’t mean those in long term relationships because the lack of desire vs desire will always be a mismatch which is likely to lead to unhappiness for one or both because of the sacrifices one of them has to make to meet the other’s needs (whichever way round that is).

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Telecaster68

I don't read it as being entirely a happy marriage, tbh.

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alibali
9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I don't read it as being entirely a happy marriage, tbh.

I doubt if there is such a thing Telecaster. They all require some level of compromise, not just sex. After all we are individuals not robots with hormones. There’s bound to be some yin and yang moments even in the best marriages.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Does it matter what's explicitly stated in the wedding vows then?

I just found it interesting that some marriage documents and religious traditions were so different than what I’m used to seeing.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Isn't this what someone was saying early about 'just leaving' is seldom that simple once money, families and kids get involved? And when it comes down to it, it's perfectly viable for the asexual to just close down conversations because their partner just isn't going to leave, and they know it.

By someone, do you mean me?

 

If so, no, I think the question of why people don’t say they don’t like sex can be separate from the one about how ending a cohabitating LTR is complicated.

 

Alas, you never know someone won’t leave.

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Sally
14 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I completely agree. But saying to you at this point 'shut up - you could've left', which is what's been said to more than one sexual partner on here, would be to massively, and unsympathetically, simplify the situation.

Nobody's said "shut up", Tele.  And plenty of asexuals have also commented about the difficulties in being with someone who wants/expects what they can't provide, and wondered whether they should leave.  Those threads don't always appear in the Partners area, so perhaps you haven't read them.

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Serran
4 hours ago, anisotropic said:

 

 

If a partner really doesn't like sex, why can't they say it? If the other partner loves them and won't leave, why can't they say "can you just hold me while I jerk off then" or "can you jerk me off" or "can you use this toy on me"? Is it too demeaning for the sexual partner? Too disgusting for the asexual partner?

 

Masturbation and assisting it and manual stimulation are all still sexual and if you arent into someone sexually then its not exactly pleasant to get them off with hands or toys either...

 

It was actually less exhausting for me to just lie there for sex than to give a hand job. 

 

Before I found the person that sparked sexual interest in me, I let people know I wasnt into sex and didnt want. Did it anyway. And all the sexual acts, even just being touched in that way, were exhausting. I began dreading being near them. They found my lack of interest exhausting. 

 

Now I have found someone im interested in that way none of it is exhausting. And if they want and I dont its ok to just do a quick whatever for them. 

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Apostle
On 12/18/2018 at 10:38 PM, ryn2 said:

 

x

 

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Apostle
On 12/19/2018 at 3:26 AM, Serran said:

 

x

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anisotrophic

A guy can just lie there too but... maybe the fact a male ace has to have a bit more mental presence (if only to give a hand job, or avoid losing an erection) makes falling into a "disengaged partner" sex scenario less likely.

 

But neither requires more effort in the "hold me" variant? I'll definitely take being held over doing it alone.

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Serran
23 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

A guy can just lie there too but... maybe the fact a male ace has to have a bit more mental presence (if only to give a hand job, or avoid losing an erection) makes falling into a "disengaged partner" sex scenario less likely.

 

But neither requires more effort in the "hold me" variant? I'll definitely take being held over doing it alone.

Holding someone while they masturbate still takes a lot of mental and emotional effort as its a sexual act you dont want... would it cause no mental or emotional reaction if say your platonic wrong gendered friend you had zero interest in that way asked it of you? Literally any sexual act takes an emotional and mental toll on someone when they dont want it. Because its a thing you really dont want and its a personal thing, not just going to the store for milk when you would rather not.

 

Plus... that wouldnt have been enough for anyone I have been with. My last ex needed oral and PiV, even hand jobs didnt work to satisfy him. 

 

2 hours ago, Apostle said:

Well now you know how mentally hard it is for men to perform. Women can just lie there and not move a muscle whereas men have to use both physical and mental abilities to perform.

It is well documented that women can look at the ceiling and think about shopping whilst sex is ongoing. Well, I can tell you that that is not possible for a man as he has to concentrate on the job in hand. Men can temporarily think of something apart from the sexual act just to stop premature ejaculation but any longer and the erection will dissipate. 

That is the difference.

Mmm. I think you misunderstand. Yes, men have to concentrate to maintain an erection, which would be difficult, I am sure (though would hope it would be OK with the partner  to switch to some other way if it was too difficult..) But, women who are not aroused also need to concentrate, or it causes a lot of pain, so its not exactly easy either. Not just a lie there and its super easy and no big deal.  You can use lube to fix the issue of no moisture, but that doesnt relax the vaginal muscles the way arousal does. Thinking of other things during was actually a good way of trying to stay in the mental zone needed to be able to relax the muscles enough. If I slipped and forgot myself and the muscles went back to their natural state then the pain felt like being punched hard with a stabbing sensation going up into my abdomen. So, distracting myself by running to do lists or music lyrics through my head was a mental exercise to keep my mind off what I was doing so I could relax my body enough to not want to cry from the pain of lack of arousal. I actually would run out of things to think of during, cause it would be nearly an hour and I would have to strain to think of something. 

 

But even with the risk of pain, it was the least involved sexual act so emotionally it was easier to do than the other stuff. Even so, it took 10-15 minutes in the bathroom to mentally prep going "OK. It will be over soon. Just about 40 minutes and you will be done. Then you can do something you enjoy to get over it. Just 40 minutes." Just mentally repeating a pep talk to myself to be able to suffer through it. And I needed a few hours alone after to get back into a good mood. 

 

Since I have experienced arousal now and my current spouse sparked my libido, I havent felt any pain in anything we have done. My body naturally makes itself ready for sexual stuff. It isnt emotionally and mentally draining, it feels good. I actually want to be around my spouse after, during, before. There isnt any mental prep. And if its a eh not really in the mood but i want to do for you, then its still nice... it doesnt feel like I just spent 12 hours at a job i hate and need to unwind, which is the feeling I got with my exes. 

 

Being sexually attracted to your partner is just so incredibly different than not being. I honestly get how people dont understand how hard it can be if you arent into sex at all. Because even if you arent "in the mood" exactly you are still into your partner like that, so not that bad. As opposed to... omg not again I hate this, but I will suffer it cause it makes you happy. 

 

So if the ace can get into eh not that bad, or its nice, compromises can work. But, when they cant, thats when issues happen. And switching the sexual act to some other sex act isnt a solution that works for everyone because its still a sexual act and it may still cause a huge emotional and mental drain to do. And it might not even really satisfy their partner. 

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anisotrophic
53 minutes ago, Serran said:

Holding someone while they masturbate still takes a lot of mental and emotional effort as its a sexual act you dont want... would it cause no mental or emotional reaction if say your platonic wrong gendered friend you had zero interest in that way asked it of you?

No. I can't imagine loving & living with someone and not feeling a sense of happiness at their happiness. And platonic friend: I'd mainly worry about hurting them by leading them on and not being able to do a good job. I turned down someone female, but it was because I couldn't return her love. I don't think my indifference or willingness makes me pansexual...

 

That said, I've never felt romantic feelings for women, I fail to even manage friendships. I did go along with sex (not piv) with a male friend that cared about me, and that caring was love & attraction that I didn't feel any reciprocity. And I felt positive about having gone along with it because of how it made him feel. If I'd retained a friendship with the female in that manner, I can definitely imagine doing the same, but we were never close, her infatuation passed and his had endured the years...

 

I'm curious about sex with women and try imagining it (to some extent this shift night be occurring with my gender identity changes), but I never manage to have much interaction with women. I think I might be a fairly sex indifferent person in the absence of attraction. But I recognize many sexual people aren't, which is why I don't think aversion in the absence of attraction is an "ace thing"... I don't know how unusual it is to feel indifferent.

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Serran
7 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

I think I might be a fairly sex indifferent person in the absence of attraction. But I recognize many sexual people aren't, which is why I don't think aversion in the absence of attraction is an "ace thing"... I don't know how unusual it is to feel indifferent.

Yeah.. most people I know arent gonna be happy having sex with anyone who asks as long as they like the person, regardless of gender or attraction. They need to be interested in the person somehow, romantic or sexual. Not sure if that is very common, but not with people in my life. 

 

But, general interest in sex probably helps too. Personally, before I met my current spouse, I had no interest or pleasure from anything sexual. I didn't masturbate, never been "turned on", never had an orgasm (people certainly tried though...), had literally no interest and no libido. So I got nothing at all from it. 

 

Another difference is with a partner its an expected frequent event. First few months with my exes didnt bug me much. But, a near daily event at 30-40 minutes of deeply personal, draining, not at all pleasurable stuff that you do just for someone else and get nothing at all... wore me down so much. When I left my last ex I swore off all sexual everything. After 10 years of suffering through it for him I was just done. I had suffered through sex I didnt want for other people since I was 15, with four different people. When I added up how many times it was over 3,000 hours spent doing a thing I hated just for someone else to be happy. 

 

And honestly it sucked cause sex made them feel closer to me and made them happy. Sex made me feel distant from them and made me unhappy. I essentially traded my happiness for theirs. I started doing it at 15, I stopped at 29. 

 

And I talked to a lot of aces that felt like I did over that period after I found AVEN. Wanting their loved ones happy, but the only way to do it was to trade their own happiness away. Wanting their partner to feel close and loved, but only way was to make themselves feel a million miles away from their partner and unloved. 

 

Which is why i ID'd as ace for a while. I found a lot of people here who got it. Who related to the feelings I had.

 

But... then I met my spouse and she had no sexual expectations of me. And now I have a very healthy sex life. Go figure. :lol: So i dont ID as ace anymore. But, I still have years of feeling lonely and broken and the complete mismatch of partners wanting me and me being unable to return it. And all the PMs from aces who could relate so well and were just as lost in how to make it work.  

 

But yeah. Love cant make everyone OK with sex, especially not long term and frequent like a partner needs. 

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anisotrophic
29 minutes ago, Serran said:

Yeah.. most people I know arent gonna be happy having sex with anyone who asks as long as they like the person, regardless of gender or attraction. They need to be interested in the person somehow, romantic or sexual.

Well, happy is a bit strong! I certainly have to feel safe, trust in a couple ways (including that it's not hurting that person).

 

But the last sentence here is part of what I'm getting at: romantic attraction could be enough... but I have no idea what that feels like, so hopefully the long term male friend is a close approximation.

 

Even so, it feels very very different to me, without attraction. I didn't want sex when I realized my partner was likely feeling like I did about that friend... My therapist said "this feels really upsetting to you but it's the only way he has sex, and he's telling you it's ok". (But me knowing he could be lying a bit, right?) It's so different...

 

But also I thought more about how it felt, could feel positive... but be stressful/negative to not meet expectations, to do it "on demand", what things affected how I felt... A zone that *can* be positive, of given the right context.

 

Sex is pretty emotional...

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Apostle
On 12/19/2018 at 12:51 PM, Serran said:

 

x

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ryn2

Remember, too, that women’s health has not been as well-studied (and that what has been studied is much more recent).  Until fairly recently if you went to many doctors and reported discomfort during intercourse you’d be given useless advice and/or blamed.

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alibali
Just now, ryn2 said:

Remember, too, that women’s health has not been as well-studied (and that what has been studied is much more recent).  Until fairly recently if you went to many doctors and reported discomfort during intercourse you’d be given useless advice and/or blamed.

Oh aye cystitis rules ko. Why are you not producing enough lubricant. You should! Lolol

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Serran
17 minutes ago, Apostle said:

Then that would be a cause for complaint, wouldn't it? To cause someone pain for 10 years is beyond my imagination. I think you were caught in a mental challenge and couldn't leave your ex for reasons not yet mentioned. Love, finances, mental/physical abuse, they can all be causes of staying in a relationship.

There is always an answer somewhere down the line.

It wasnt physically painful if I concentrated on relaxation and forcing my body into the state arousal puts it in naturally. So most the time it wasnt painful, just draining and stressful cause I didnt want it and it took so much mental effort to do. As that relationship progressed, he did care less and less about my consent...so that particular one went sour and abusive eventually (he admits it). 

 

But I was with a guy before that for two years, before that 6 months, before that a year. All the same. Sex was at best boring and at worst painful. Always made me feel distant and unloved , while they felt close and loved and wanted to be touchy after. I just wanted to be alone after. It was impossible to meet both needs. The more we had sex the less I cared for them. It was always a wedge. Which is why when I got with the 10 year guy I told him I had issues with maintaining sex. 

 

And... other people never meet a person that triggers sexual interest, so they feel that way their whole lives. 

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Apostle
On 12/19/2018 at 5:32 PM, ryn2 said:

 

x

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Apostle
On 12/19/2018 at 5:38 PM, Serran said:

 

x

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uhtred

Many, probably most, people find engaging in sex that they don not want to be unpleasant, sometimes horrible - mentally and physically. The physical issues are different for men and women, but they exist for both. (for men its more likely to require physical effort and a possible inability to perform, and for women intercourse can be physically painful).  

 

In addition, many people have no interest in sex with an uninterested, or worse, unhappy partner. 

 

The combination of the above makes "just having sex" not work at all well in most situations.  Sometime people can fake enjoyment for a long time, but I think usually partners are aware that something is wrong, even if they can't figure out what. 

 

 

Sex was traditionally part of marriage - in many cases a marriage had to be "consummated" for it to be legally binding.  (a rather primitive idea IMHO).  Whether or not it is stated explicitly in the vows or contract, I think it is reasonable to assume that unless otherwise discussed, marriage is assumed to include regular sex. 

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Serran
7 hours ago, Apostle said:

 I suppose male ignorance comes into the equation but if females are unhappy with their mate then surely they have the means to educate them, or is this too difficult?

As i said when i got with the 10 year guy I did say i had trouble maintaining interest in sex. Basically i told him after 6 months I got bored of it. He said I wouldnt have that issue with him cause he knew what he was doing. I just shrugged and went along with it, cause I didnt know better at the time. 

 

I also mentioned the things I did like (kissing, cuddling, etc) but didnt get that with anyone cause it was an after sex thing for them and I didnt like it after sex :lol:

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
11 hours ago, Apostle said:

I didn't realise women could be so complicated. It's no wonder that more and more men are not choosing partners these days! You would have to be a Freud to unravel some people. I suppose male ignorance comes into the equation but if females are unhappy with their mate then surely they have the means to educate them, or is this too difficult?

How are we meant to know ourselves unless and until we have been with someone who knows what to do to get us off? i thought I was fully asexual and never once enjoyed or desired sex until i was 28 years old, when i finally met someone (a 19 year old virgin who had never even held hands with a girl) who knew how to stimulate my mind in the right ways to get me aroused enough to make we want (and enjoy) all kinds of kinky sex. So yes now, i know exactly what I want and will be sure to thoroughly educate any man I am with in future.. but if it wasn't for my 19 year old ex I never would have known what I wanted or what it was that gets me off 😕 

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