Fellow Sexuals

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, Apostle said:

Physical intimacy between two sexual people is obviously something that asexuals cannot understand. 

The impression I get is that it isn’t the physical intimacy aces don’t understand - it’s the coexistent emotional bond, where one exists, that physical intimacy evidently strengthens/maintains.

 

1 hour ago, Apostle said:

This then means that asexuals do not require this form of intimacy in a relationship but how do they describe what their relationship is made of? Is it like a parent and child, or a dog and it's master/mistress? 

I can only speak for myself here. I don’t have children, but I don’t imagine most parents romantically love their children or view then as life partners.  I do love my pets but my relationship with them is not like my relationships with people.

 

As best I can tell romantic aces have the same sort of relationship feelings that sexuals do.  It may be more that those feelings are fed by a different source than it is that the feelings themselves are wildly different.

1 hour ago, Apostle said:

Are kisses and hugs allowed, caresses, touching, feeling, exchanging loving looks etc? Is that where it ends if these are true or if these things are what constitutes an asexual partnership, is that it? 

Wouldn’t that vary from person to person, even with sexuals?  People are varyingly romantic and varyingly sensual... some

love physical contact and others don’t.

 

What specifically do you mean by  “touching, feeling”?

 

Is that where what ends?  Are you asking if the acts you listed off are enough for aces?  That, again would vary by person.  Some people really enjoy some or all of the things you listed, others would if they didn’t feel pressured to escalate to penetrative sex, others like some but not all, and still others hate all of them.

[SusannaC]

It’s all so incredibly hard to wrap my mind around......

[uhtred]

1 hour ago, SusannaC said:

It’s all so incredibly hard to wrap my mind around......

Maybe I'm wrong but despite being sexual, maybe I understand.  I had a very close male friend in college. We were roommates for a long time and very close - but with no hint of any sort of sexual / romantic attachment - we were both  straight males. 

 

I've imagined asexual relationships like that: someone with whom you enjoy spending time and you matters a lot to you, but without any hint of sexual attraction. 

[ryn2]

6 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Maybe I'm wrong but despite being sexual, maybe I understand.  I had a very close male friend in college. We were roommates for a long time and very close - but with no hint of any sort of sexual / romantic attachment - we were both  straight males. 

 

I've imagined asexual relationships like that: someone with whom you enjoy spending time and you matters a lot to you, but without any hint of sexual attraction. 

For me it’s that, but with all the good and bad that comes with any romantic relationship.  It’s just (“just”) that sex doesn’t enhance my romantic feelings towards someone.

[ryn2]

42 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

To me, the emotional bond is encapsulated in the 'intimacy' bit of the phrase. 

Fair enough.  “Physical intimacy” is often used as a synonym for “sexual acts” and I was speaking of the latter.

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, SusannaC said:

It’s all so incredibly hard to wrap my mind around......

I hear ya... that’s true in reverse as well.  I wish we could collectively come up with a workable analogy.

[ryn2]

It’s really commonly used that way where I live... advertising, doctors, counselors/therapists, etc.  Not every single one, but enough that when I hear/see it I just mentally substitute “engaging in sexual acts.”

 

Thinking about it more, that’s probably one source of confusion... because putting any portion of your anatomy into someone else’s body is arguably both physical and intimate.  On top of that lie “was this intended in a sexual manner?” and the whole question of bond reinforcement we’re struggling with.

[ryn2]

48 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Maybe I'm wrong but despite being sexual, maybe I understand.  I had a very close male friend in college. We were roommates for a long time and very close - but with no hint of any sort of sexual / romantic attachment - we were both  straight males. 

 

I've imagined asexual relationships like that: someone with whom you enjoy spending time and you matters a lot to you, but without any hint of sexual attraction. 

What else besides sexual attraction differentiates the relationships you have with romantic partners from the one you had with your roommate?

 

I’m assuming there’s something, because otherwise wouldn’t they be the same as FWB?

[ryn2]

2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think most people just translate it as 'did you have sex?' I was just being painfully precise because that's The Aven Way. 

I was trying to look past that because there really is some core (mis)understanding there.  

[ryn2]

Some aros kiss, hug, etc.

 

I’m never sure if I am aro or not.  I dislike a lot of conventional romantic gestures but am not positive why.

[ryn2]

2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

You're right, that two word phrase does get to the nub of it. In a relationship, sexuals see physicality as vital to intimacy, sexuals see it as tending to get in the way of intimacy. 

...or at least as tangential to it.

 

I’m speaking specifically of sexual acts here, as there are forms of physical contact (e.g., hugs) that may not be sexual in nature and forms of sexual engagement/interaction that are not physical.

[ryn2]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Surely anything more than friendly air kissing or pecks is instantly into romantic territory? I really can't see how an aro could have a snog and then claim it wasn't romantic... 

There are plenty of aro sexuals who snog, from what I understand... 

[ryn2]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

How can snogging be deemed not romantic? In the sense aromantics use the word, rather than the Hallmark sense... 

Isn’t it the feelings behind it (or the lack thereof) and not the act itself that would determine whether one was aro?  Anyone who is not very repulsed can go through the physical motions, whether aro ace, romantic ace, aro sexual, or romantic sexual.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

How can snogging be deemed not romantic? In the sense aromantics use the word, rather than the Hallmark sense... 

Cause not everyone finds it a romantic activity, even romantic people. I knew a girl that would kiss her friends the same way she kissed her partner, right on the lips. And it made him really jealous at the start, cause he felt it was a romantic couple only activity. To her, it was just a sign of affection, platonic or otherwise. 

[InariYana]

I can totally imagine non-romantic snogging, where a person doesn't experience this romantic "oh it's so wonderful, it's perfect, it's magic!" fluttery feeling, just focuses on the pleasant and intense sensation without the whole romantic pink cloud above their head 

On the other hand an aromantic person gazing deep into their partner's eyes and whispering sweet things, while gently kissing their hand... I can't imagine that.      

[SusannaC]

Now i know what “snogging” is.... lol.   Never heard of such a term before.  Anyway, for me a romantic relationship is and should be sexual- that is the personal definition in my mind, at least. The need for sexual connection, and with it emotional connection, and  adoration, extreme fondness, love, all connected. I don’t want sex just to satisfy a physical

need per se.  These feelings all define my relationship as different from other platonic ones.  So it’s sooo very incredible to me still, after all these years even, that my SO is so completely different.  His idea of romantic love, I guess, is so very unlike mine- and misses an essential part for me.  I just can’t equate him with romantic love anymore as a result.  There is no romance, we are bonded roommates, close friends who love each other, and coparents.  When I think about the past, it seems as though that was a different life- when there was romantic love for him within me😢. I hope this makes sense.

[ryn2]

Sexual =/= romantic, hence the two terms.

 

I’m not trying to say snogging/making out is platonic. I’m saying it can be sexual rather than romantic.  FWB is sexual rather than romantic.  That’s why people talking about problems in FWB situations when one person “catches feelings.”

[ryn2]

Just now, ryn2 said:

Sexual =/= romantic, hence the two terms.

 

I’m not trying to say snogging/making out is platonic. I’m saying it can be sexual rather than romantic.  FWB is sexual rather than romantic.  That’s why people talking about problems in FWB situations when one person “catches feelings.”

(this assumes a split attraction model but so does use of the two separate terms - ace, aro - to start with)

[ryn2]

 

1 hour ago, SusannaC said:

Anyway, for me a romantic relationship is and should be sexual- that is the personal definition in my mind, at least. The need for sexual connection, and with it emotional connection, and  adoration, extreme fondness, love, all connected. I don’t want sex just to satisfy a physical

need per se.  These feelings all define my relationship as different from other platonic ones

It sounds like, for you, your romantic relationships need to be sexual and your sexual relationships need to be romantic.

 

For me, I experience all of the other things you describe - emotional connection, extreme fondness, love - too.  Sex just doesn’t strengthen/reinforce those feelings for me like it sounds like it does for you.

 

It’s the reverse situation of the person who wants sex for sex’s sake and doesn’t want the pesky feelings.

[SusannaC]

Very true for me.  I often have wondered- would I have been more or less emotionally hurt had my husband  been unfaithful in our marriage?  This physically detached relationship has been so painful- even though I know he loves me in his own way- but would that sort of emotional trauma  been more or less painful or harder to bear?  Or-  am i comparing apples to oranges, as the saying goes?

[ryn2]

25 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

I often have wondered- would I have been more or less emotionally hurt had my husband  been unfaithful in our marriage?

I feel like there’s different “baggage” on these, partially related to gender.  On one hand, people are generally more supportive of the cheated-on spouse scenario (probably because it is more widely known and common) but on the other that support may be eroded when people wonder what the wife did to “make” the husband stray.

 

The scenario where the husband doesn’t want sex is at least thought to be less common so people may be puzzled or disbelieving.

 

Which is worse for you personally probably depends on how much you rely on the support/comfort of others.

[SusannaC]

Good point.  One reaction I got from a close friend recently was “does he need Viagra?”, which of course just means no understanding of what I’m talking about.  Again- tough to get support from many people here, in my world.

Edited June 4, 2018 by SusannaC
Misspelling

[max9701]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

 

It sounds like, for you, your romantic relationships need to be sexual and your sexual relationships need to be romantic.

 

For me, I experience all of the other things you describe - emotional connection, extreme fondness, love - too.  Sex just doesn’t strengthen/reinforce those feelings for me like it sounds like it does for you.

 

It’s the reverse situation of the person who wants sex for sex’s sake and doesn’t want the pesky feelings.

There's a continuum, I think. Personally I could have a "friends with benefits" situation - I did for a while, once - but only with an actual friend, someone I at least liked and respected. A totally casual hookup would be difficult for me to get into. So I fall between those extremes, I guess.

[ohmygosh]

On 5/22/2018 at 5:28 PM, SusannaC said:

My heart hurts today. Maybe I’m tired & I know I’ve had a difficult day but.....I need to vent my heartache and frustration somewhere! Regretfully-I know of NO ONE in my life who might understand the problem, so here I am.  My husband is a good man-a loving father and I know he loves ME. I want to say to the best of his abilities because I know that sex isn’t necessary for him to live and be happy.  It hasn’t been a part of our relationship in so many years!!  I honestly don’t remember the last time....so why can’t I be happy and satisfied now, with my life just as he is?  Why can’t I accept his love as he is able to give it?  Why do I feel the absence of intimacy like a massive void in my life?  

Is there a time in life- say when I’m 60, or 65, when sex WONT matter?  Will I look back on these unsettled years and wonder at my foolishness?  I welcome any thoughts.....

I was really alone in my relationship struggles too. 

 

The behavior was just so confusing to me.  I couldn’t really ever wrap my head it.  I started to have outbursts.  No answers... nights were devastating.  How could I be a newlywed and feel so utterly lonely especially at night.  I knew that we would lay in the same bed and hat there would never be genuine cuddling - just a huge casm of space that he didn’t mind or care to explain. 

 

I developed a trigger from the rejection. A ptsd trigger. 

 

After 4 years of marriage... he got tired of dealing with my constant utter sadness and confusion over the lack of loving intimacy that he just went to work and never came home. 

 

I loved him.  I am still very sad over it.  There is no explaining any of it.  I figured out that he has a mild form of autism. 

 

It never would have gotten better. 

 

Its been almost a year since he left Without empathy or explaining his intentions.  He thinks he has empathy but it’s not an outward action.  

 

I too am jealous that he can just carryon in his life without empathy, without being phased. 

 

No no one I know will ever understand how utterly painful it is to live someone who is an undiagnosed Aspergers or asexual.   You are screwed either way once you have begun a family or made a marriage, etc.  if they leave or you leave... you have nothing.  If you stay together, you have constant questions and confusion that will never be fully answered, other than there is NO answer.  The answer is that the way you feel today is how your relationship will always remain.  If you are fulfilled in a partnership, but lonely in intimacy... then that is your answer.  That is how you will ALWAYs feel no matter what age. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Snogging is more than a kiss on the lips. It's more like what you colonials call making out. There's some serious semantic gymnastics needed to make that not sexual/romantic. 

Oh, I was going on basically this definition of it...

 

snogging

Contrary to popular American belief, snogging is just kissing- not full on lurve action. Full on kissing, yes- but a snog does not define any other sexual act.

I got a little snog off him at the end of the night.

 

 

But, I guess it can be non-romantic and totally physical if it's the making out definition. Like drunk frat party with person you don't even know the name of kind of making out. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

In the sense it's not a Grand Amour, but it's romantic in the sense the word is used on AVEN - more than platonic. 

 

If you told your partner you'd snogged someone, it would be a different thing than just going out for a coffee and a chat. 

Well, yeah, more than platonic. And not acceptable in most monogamous relationships to do outside of it. But, can still be aro sexual and make out/have sex with people but feel nothing romantic for them, in the sense of romantic or aromantic orientation. 

[ryn2]

15 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well technically. But why would you, if you were devoid of any romantic feelings in general? This is really getting into classic AVEN edge-case territory rather than things that are likely to happen in reality. 

Why do you think that?  I know several sexual aros (like the drunken frat party example... plus a few “confirmed bachelors” (and one bachelorette)) who engage in snogging/making out and other sexual activities with zero romantic interest or feeling.

 

I do agree that the main reasons for intrinsically wanting to snog/make out are likely sexual OR romantic, so someone who is aro AND ace would not likely have an intrinsic reason to participate (as opposed to because partner wants it, to fit in, etc.).  That’s not just because they’re aro, though.

 

Aro isn’t an orientation.  Someone can be aro and asexual, aro and heterosexual, aro and homosexual, aro and bisexual, aro and pansexual, etc.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well technically. But why would you, if you were devoid of any romantic feelings in general? This is really getting into classic AVEN edge-case territory rather than things that are likely to happen in reality. 

Because people can still be into making out / sex without romantic feelings attached?  Some people are into hanging out, making out, sex and then the second any romantic feelings get mentioned they dump the person cause they don't want that. Just the casual enjoyment of someones company and sex with them, without any sort of romantic entanglement. FWB arrangement, as it were. 

 

Now, I don't really know why an aro ace would wanna. But. *shrug* Would have to ask one. 😛 

[uhtred]

5 hours ago, ryn2 said:

What else besides sexual attraction differentiates the relationships you have with romantic partners from the one you had with your roommate?

 

I’m assuming there’s something, because otherwise wouldn’t they be the same as FWB?

Very good question and different people would answer differently. 

 

For me that *is* the difference.  I would not be able to have a FWB.  I sort of did long ago, and I very quickly developed feelings much more akin to love.  Fortunately she ended it because we really were not right for each other long term, though she was a wonderful sweet girl (...um.. see what I mean, 35 years later I still feel real affection for her).

 

I know other people are different, but for me love, romance and sex are very tightly intertwined. 

 

I do very much enjoy time with friends, so I can be close to someone without any sexual interest - but to me it doesn't feel at all like love. 

[ryn2]

I guess my perspective is different because I know a fair number of aro (non-ace) people in real life.  They want sex without relationships or commitment.  They definitely consider making out/snogging sexual, not romantic (for them).

 

Part of it may be that, to me, making out is inherently sexual rather than romantic as well.

 

Like I said above I’m not sure there are many (any?) intrinsic reasons an aro ace would want to make out.  Doesn’t mean someone out there doesn’t have reasons but none are coming to me.