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3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And you know it isn't how?

Exactly.  All either (any) of us has to go on is what others claim.

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4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But the sexual partner isn't getting that happy relationship either, as I said.

Right, I said that as well.

 

5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

There is the extra thing that they're not getting and they want, and they have no control over. The asexual has that extra thing too - no sex - but they're getting it, and they have control over it (for instance if they decided to tolerate maintenance sex).

It’s a bit like... I want no meat - just cheese - on my sandwich.  You want meat and cheese.

 

We get cheese sandwiches with massively moldy bread.

 

Okay, sure, I got no meat so I got closer to what I wanted than you did... but the sandwiches are essentially inedible so it’s just degrees of misery.

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5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Except for the objective, observable parts, like not having sex vs having sex.

Well, yes, we can observe that, but we can’t know what it does or doesn’t outweigh and to what relative degree.

 

The people who probably come closest to being able to reasonably speculate are sexuals who have been in relationships where they were/became repulsed by sex with a partner...

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31 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm not saying it's a choice and asexuals should just man/woman up. I'm saying that in the core conflict of a 'mixed relationship', asexuals can get the outcome they want - no sex - independent of their partner (assuming they're not a rapist, and obviously is the case with nearly all sexuals). Distress about sex, and the emotional impact of having or not having it, will be there in some form for both partners, whatever happens about sex, because it's a mixed relationship.

 

But in that core issue, the sexual has no say, and removing agency is a big problem for anyone.

 

I'm clearly no longer whining on my own behalf here, it just frustrates me that in such a simple matter of clear logic, almost no asexual poster on AVEN has ever conceded this to be true until backed into a rhetorical corner. They point out there's more to a relationship woes than sex, and I agree. I just don't understand why the very clear, objective fact that the person who doesn't want sex can unilaterally get to have no sex is disputed.

The sexual does have say though. It doesn't have to be rape, but as well as a loving "giving" I have been on the receiving end of guilt tripping, manipulation, emotional blackmail (if you loved me enough) etc etc etc. I would assume that most asexuals don't issue a blanket refusal although I don't doubt that some do.

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4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Really? You don't think that when there's an issue which is causing so much misery because two people have mutually exclusive needs over it, the partner who gets the result they want, even in that one area, will be less miserable than the one who doesn't because they have one less thing to be miserable about? I really don't understand how you can reach that conclusion.

See my post above about the moldy bread.  Most people don’t want to be in a relationship that sucks, is failing, or is scraping along now but won’t for long.  The fact it sucks a little less for one person than the other doesn’t change that.  And even if it seems to suck markedly less early on there seem to be few examples of that lasting.

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3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The asexual says 'no' and that's the end of it.

It’s not, though, because each “no” erodes the relationship a little (as does each “yes” for the ace).

 

Whether that particular event ends in grudging (if well-hidden grudging) sex or grudging (again, potentially well-hidden grudging) no sex, the relationship is more damaged afterwards than it was before.

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1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

It stops sex though doesn't it? That's my entire point.

It does, but I elaborated further while you were typing.

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

You know it's 'a little' how?

The same way you don’t.  Ultimately none of us have any way of knowing how much others suffer relative to ourselves.

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3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm basing my presumption on the fact that you keep minimising the effects of the lack of control over one's own sex life. It leads me to think you don't understand how deepseated  the issue is for sexuals, which would mean your experience of the presence/absence of sex isn't deepseated, therefore not so painful for you.

I’m basing mine on the fact that you keep inferring that aces are happy as long as they are having less sex, which often isn’t true in the overall context of a relationship.

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25 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Which one - individually - is better off than if they'd had sex?

If they value the relationship, neither.  It’s not like the ace outran someone bent on assault and can think “whew, all better now.”

 

If they have sex, the ace is worse off *right then* and *specific to sex* but whoever values the relationship most is worse off in the long run.  Conversely, if they don’t have sex, the sexual is worse off *right then* and *specific to sex*!but the person who values the relationship most is worst off in the long run.

 

I say “specific to sex” because in either case if the sex (or lack thereof) ruins the evening whoever is more bothered by that is worst off right then.

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I think what @ryn2's trying to get at is that, for romantic asexuals, there's also a romantic component to their relationship with their partner, that just because an asexual might not want or desire sex with their partner, that doesn't necessarily mean that they might not feel guilty about denying sex for their partner or personally bothered by that there's a difference between themselves and their partner because there might be a risk of them losing the familiar relationship they've built or grown used to.

 

So, an asexual can feel emotionally hurt and worry about losing their partner, too.

 

Even relationships between sexuals can have that struggle with not having sex, too, if, say, one partner has been abused; so, therapists in couples counseling also recommend the partner who hasn't been abused to take it easy on the partner who has, to not rush their partner too quickly in urging them to have sex, because then it might re-trigger their PTSD symptoms, flashbacks, etc.

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19 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

We can guess though. Someone having a knife stuck in their ribs is very likely suffering more than someone who hasn't. You can't just wave your hands and make everything completely unknowable because you can't know in detail in every case. You can make informed estimates about most things.

We have been through this before.  Most people have enough comparable experience to extrapolate to what being stabbed could feel like.  It’s a lot harder to know whether being denied sex you do want feels worse than having sex you don’t want... 

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27 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm assumng they're happier than if they were, yes, because that's pretty much the defining characteristic of being asexual.

In a vacuum, if the relationship - and the individuals in it - was unharmed by not having (so much, or even any) sex, sure.  But there isn’t a vacuum.

 

Just like, in a vacuum, a sexual who has more sex is happier than one who has less or none.  It seems most don’t want to have sex that erodes their relationships, though, or with partners who doen’t enjoy it, and so on.  There isn’t a vacuum there either.

 

E.g., the poster (I think it was uhtred?) who reports being briefly happier right after sex but in the bigger picture wishes it didn’t happen because overall things are a little worse each time.

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7 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

It’s a lot harder to know whether being denied sex you do want feels worse than having sex you don’t want... 

Or, for that matter, which - one round of sex missed out on, or one round of sex capitulated to -feels closer to as bad as a breakup.

 

Cumulatively, lots of incidences of no - or of unwanted - sex do tend to lead to “relationship decay” that feels worse than breaking up... but which gets there faster?  Depends on the individuals.

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25 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And then there's the lack of sex.

And is the lack of sex better, or worse, to experience than the presence of unwanted sex?

 

We don’t know.  Like I said, the people who probably stand the best chance of seeing both sides are sexuals who have been in relationships that involved repulsion-level unwanted sex.

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21 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It is, but easy enough to understand their feet get cut without them, surely?

Only once you see the bleeding.

 

I never wore shoes unless forced, until a medical condition interfered.  Now that I’ve experienced both sides I see what the “wimps” were feeling... but I also know what it was like to not be one and to think they were just wimpy.

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9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I assume the presence of unwanted sex is worse, but that's a side issue. The issue is simply accepting the objective reality that sex isn't happening, and that's what the asexual partner wants. Everything else, on both sides, is subjective.

It’s all similarly subjective, though.  It doesn’t happen in a vacuum.  Whether the couple has sex or not for both of them (differently) changes how they feel about each other, how they feel about themselves, how safe they feel, how well they feel, etc.  All of that in turn changes how they interact.  You can’t just separate out “had sex” or “had no sex” from all of that because what people actually want involves the whole framework too.

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8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And presumably understand that previously, you were unfairly dismissing their pain because you didn't get it. So such a thing is possible.

Yes, but I also see that the wimpy people had no understanding of my experience and how different it was from theirs either.

 

It was only possible because I legitimately experienced both sides physically.

 

And I still despise and resent wearing shoes, so there’s an emotional component there too.

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43 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

As an inveterate shoe wearer, I have to say I think I'd find it pretty easy to grasp that you not wearing them meant they weren't important to you and your feet were probably super tough.

For me it was a lifelong thing, though, with nothing to compare it to.  It never crossed my mind that my feet were tougher beyond what I trained them to be able to do on purpose.  So, to me, it looked like something anyone could train themselves to do.

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47 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

she'll be less stressed for not having to deal with it.

And my point was “not for very long if it means you stop interacting with her at all.”

 

My situation may be a bit unique in that I didn’t put an active kibosh on sex.  I just didn’t push for more when it gradually stopped on its own.  So maybe I’m not getting the whole “immediate relief” thing as all

I have is a long look back to go by.

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3 hours ago, Skullery Maid said:

Because it doesn't work like that. At some point, psychology just needs to be accepted even if to you it sounds counterintuitive. 

 

All I can say is that sometimes you just can't. At first it's easy enough to have sex with someone you don't want to have sex with... For it to just be an activity... but that fades. I cannot explain it but I've had enough sexual relationships with men to understand on a gut level how it feels. Fun until it starts to erode your sense of safety and self. 

 

All I can say is that you just can't. Even if you know it'll make things easier. Even if you know it should be easy. You just can't. 

 

If that wasn't true, orientation would be meaningless. 

 

I think that you either need to put yourself in a situation where you have to force yourself to have sex even though it causes significant distress, or you need to accept that it is not a choice in any way. It sounds dumb but it's just not. It's no more a choice to get up and run out of the bedroom as it is for the sexual to cry when that rejection hits. It just is. You can try your best to moderate behavior but after awhile that moderation starts feeling like self abuse. 

The change with time is interesting.  I can imagine not wanting sex:  I"m a straight male, so I have no desire for sex even with my closest male friend.  What is difficult for me to imagine is finding sex with them to be OK bu then having it become more difficult to tolerate over time. 

 

I can imagine losing interest in a female sexual partner - but for me at most that would cause sex to go from desirable to neutral. 

 

What you describe is something I didn't know existed.  Its also a potential source of relationship problems because an ace person might go along with sex for a while, but then stop - leading to what their sexual partner would interpret as a dishonest "bait and switch" 

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17 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Its also a potential source of relationship problems because an ace person might go along with sex for a while, but then stop - leading to what their sexual partner would interpret as a dishonest "bait and switch" 

Absolutely.  You see a lot of discussions along those lines here.

 

17 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I can imagine losing interest in a female sexual partner - but for me at most that would cause sex to go from desirable to neutral. 

If once you had lost interest you kept feeling obligated to have sex with her regularly anyway, and to pretend for her sake that it was still awesome, would that potentially cause sex to fall below neutral?

 

17 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I"m a straight male, so I have no desire for sex even with my closest male friend.  What is difficult for me to imagine is finding sex with them to be OK bu then having it become more difficult to tolerate over time. 

I’m heteroromantic, so I don’t fall in love with other women.  I also find the idea of (myself) having sex with women repulsive.  Those two things combine to make it highly unlikely that I would ever be infatuated/experience NRE with a woman or have sex with a woman.

 

By contrast I do fall in love with men, and experience infatuation/NRE.  Initially I want to share every possible experience with them, be around them as much as possible, and encourage them to reciprocate.  There also tends to be going out for dinner and drinks involved.  So, there has always been a high likelihood of my having sex with them.

 

Now that I know about asexuality and about what’s seen as baiting and switching my intent - if I ever reenter the market - is to be much more careful.  I didn’t realize anything was amiss before.

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1 hour ago, uhtred said:

The change with time is interesting.  I can imagine not wanting sex:  I"m a straight male, so I have no desire for sex even with my closest male friend.  What is difficult for me to imagine is finding sex with them to be OK 

What is interesting is that most of the sexuals here tend to have a particular orientation whether that is hetero or homosexual so don't desire the opposite to what they desire but don't see that as unusual.  But do see asexuality as unusual. 

 

I don't think I ever found sex to be ok. Tolerable sometimes and I felt it was a normal thing to do therefore pressurised myself into it. As I got older I felt it was too much of an imposition and invasion of me personally.

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I've sometimes wondered if my orientation as bi/poly is why my relationship with an ace seems easier for me than what I've seen from reading experiences of others.  

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39 minutes ago, Apostle said:

Honest divulgence on sexual preferences from asexuals prior to forming a relationship should be foremost on their minds if the person of their interest is sexual.

By far the majority of the aces posting regularly here appear to agree with this.  However, it is dependent on the ace partner knowing they’re ace beforehand and - for many of the mixed relationships discussed here - that often isn’t the case.

 

I haven’t seen a lot of cases here where someone discovered they were ace in one relationship and plans to keep it a secret in future ones.

 

46 minutes ago, Apostle said:

Contrary to some posts I have seen, the sexual/asexual relationship is far greater in the population that one might suppose. 

If aces are 1% of the population (and consider that homosexual

people are estimated at 3-4% of the population when you decide whether or not that seems low), and every ace is in a mixed relationship (not true), mixed ace/sexual relationships are a small percentage of all relationships.  There are probably many more relationships where two sexual people have mismatched libidos and/or have lost interest in one another (unilaterally or all around) sexually over time.

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40 minutes ago, Apostle said:

All of the previous comments and counter comments in these posts have led me to the following conclusion:

 

Honest divulgence on sexual preferences from asexuals prior to forming a relationship should be foremost on their minds if the person of their interest is sexual. Knowing this, the sexual then has the option of preventing subsequent pain and anguish by terminating the forming relationship if they choose to do so.

As a sexual, I was not given this option and by the time my relationship had fully formed and we had a family, it was too late.

 

I believe what many asexuals do not understand is the mental pain it causes to sexuals. It's a continual reminder of basic human sexual nature that is denied them. Whilst it is not fair to castigate anyone who is not straight sexual as it is not their fault that they are different, the root cause of sexual/asexual relationship downfalls is the fact that sexuals feel badly let down by not knowing their partners' sexuality at the start. 

 

Contrary to some posts I have seen, the sexual/asexual relationship is far greater in the population that one might suppose. May it cease to be in the future.

 

RIP sexual/asexual relationships😶

The only absolutely honest divulgence of preferences is likely to be on a one night stand or when paying for it. For every other relationship there is likely to be some kind of emotional investment sufficient to be able to trust someone enough to be able to say to them, I really like you, I want our relationship to go further but I am not interested in sex....ever.  Can you imagine having the faith in someone and risking your own burgeoning feelings to say that to a complete stranger?? I can't. I find it difficult to "admit" it to my closest friends with whom sex is not on the agenda.

 

And frankly given the disbelief and the way they have viewed it as a bit abnormal on the part of the friends I have told, I wouldn't want to risk saying it to someone I wanted to see more and more of.  So it's a good job I am not going to even bother having a relationship with anyone.

 

I do get that sexuals on this thread feel betrayed. 

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50 minutes ago, ☆゚°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

I've sometimes wondered if my orientation as bi/poly is why my relationship with an ace seems easier for me than what I've seen from reading experiences of others.  

It easily could be, because you’re less likely to expect that any one partner will help ensure all your key needs are met.

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1 hour ago, Apostle said:

All of the previous comments and counter comments in these posts have led me to the following conclusion:

 

Honest divulgence on sexual preferences from asexuals prior to forming a relationship should be foremost on their minds if the person of their interest is sexual. Knowing this, the sexual then has the option of preventing subsequent pain and anguish by terminating the forming relationship if they choose to do so.

As a sexual, I was not given this option and by the time my relationship had fully formed and we had a family, it was too late.

 

I believe what many asexuals do not understand is the mental pain it causes to sexuals. It's a continual reminder of basic human sexual nature that is denied them. Whilst it is not fair to castigate anyone who is not straight sexual as it is not their fault that they are different, the root cause of sexual/asexual relationship downfalls is the fact that sexuals feel badly let down by not knowing their partners' sexuality at the start. 

 

Contrary to some posts I have seen, the sexual/asexual relationship is far greater in the population that one might suppose. May it cease to be in the future.

 

RIP sexual/asexual relationships😶

I think divulging ones sexual interest / behavior / orientation early would be very helpful, but there is still significant social pressure against it.  Some people don't believe sex before marriage is OK at all. Many feel that early dates should not be about sex.  

 

Also, I think asexuality is not widely recognized yet.  I believe that there are many asexuals who do not realize that they are asexual.  They just feel that they haven't met the right  person yet, or that they will desire sex if they find someone that they love.  I suspect my wife is in that category - she knows that she isn't generally sexually attracted to me, but I think is genuinely confused as to why.  She feels she *should* be, but isn't. 

 

 

 

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