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51 minutes ago, Apostle said:

Most men also have far too much testosterone and it should be banned! 

Nooo 😱 I've been waiting so patiently to try it

 

(I just hope my parents don't flip out. One hopes at ~40 I'm allowed my own gender decisions...)

 

More seriously it's really hard to imagine disentangling from my partner at this point, regardless of custody questions. So I'm very lucky that we've found a happy path for ourselves. I agree with @ryn2 that it sometimes feels like people oversimplify that. 😕 But I think I also have trouble understanding situations with empathy failures, because we don't have that.

 

Also @Ficto. had a characterization of sex... implying an ace partner is borderline hateful, just lying there waiting for it to finish. I wanted to say, my partner isn't sexually illiterate or uncaring. I'm thankful and hopefully respectful & careful, and he knows acting coldly during sex would just make me feel guilty and upset.

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Most men also have far too much testosterone and it should be banned! 

Already ahead of the curve on this one!  The Powers That Be apparently saw fit to give me a big ol' testosterone deficiency, along with other sorts of hormonal weirdness (but the T is apparently the most notable one)

 

So much for my Gold Star ace cred :rolleyes:

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57 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

I agree with @ryn2 that it sometimes feels like people oversimplify that.

I feel like people don’t always understand that it’s not just a romantic relationship and friendship ending (with the accompanying sadness and loss).  When people have been in a long cohabiting partnership together, they typically have structured their lives and made their major decisions as though that partnership will endure.  That means they’ve chosen whether or not to have children based in part on being a multiparent, intact family unit, that they’ve made career/financial decisions based on collectively funding one  residence and its related expenses, that they’ve chosen where to live (the community, perhaps, but also the dwelling itself) based on their shared ability to access what they need and to maintain the dwelling, and so on.

 

Any of those decisions might not be the same ones they would have made individually... and choices they made as a unit may actually have decreased one or more partners’ individual “health” in terms of career, finances, support from family and friends, etc.

 

All of those things have to be factored in.  Can someone start completely over at 60 with unexpectedly limited means and find a new residence, potentially a new job, etc.?  Sure, but it’s not nearly as easy as it was at 25 and there’s a much greater chance of damage that just can’t be undone.

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4 hours ago, anisotropic said:

No no maybe, maybe... I just need to try... LITERAL SPICES. Get nekkid, rub it into my skin, and then make sexy moves. What do we think? Should I try cardamom or cayenne?

 

😂 I'm very chill now about my incapability of inspiring attraction, I'm loved and I'm grateful he puts up with my strange sexual desires. but hey maybe I just haven't been spicy enough, haha

I'm very chilled about not feeling it too....lolol

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3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I haven’t seen anyone saying this is a bad approach.  Unfortunately some (probably many, among the older crowd) do not realize they are asexual - or, terms aside, that there is anything different about their sexuality - beforehand.

Going back to the spice idea I spent 30+ bloody years thinking if only we tried this or that or maybe the other I would grow to want it....I thought I was unnatural, thought I could cure it somehow. All medical/counsellor people said sex is necessary for a full life, and I must be doing it wrong. So I kept trying until I hit the start of the menopause.  Until lightbulb moment due to a casual discussion about menopause when a friend bemoaned having to try to have feelings about it since the menopause. And I was like what you didn't have to force desire before the menopause??

 

I was 53 and separated...lolol.

 

I do regret any hurt I caused, but I was pretty clueless that desire was actually felt without a lot of "work"!!

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4 minutes ago, alibali said:

I was pretty clueless that desire was actually felt without a lot of "work"!!

It just doesn’t seem to be the sort of thing that comes up in serious conversation... and many doctors, therapists, etc., don’t seem to have had it on their radar to discuss as a possible option.  Hopefully this is changing.

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I'm using this to explain how people can go into a relationship not knowing. When you are given advice like give it time, spend more time together, try and find out what you like etc.....you tend to assume it will happen eventually and if not that person maybe isn't the one because if they were would it be like this. 

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2 minutes ago, alibali said:

I'm using this to explain how people can go into a relationship not knowing. When you are given advice like give it time, spend more time together, try and find out what you like etc.....you tend to assume it will happen eventually and if not that person maybe isn't the one because if they were would it be like this. 

Exactly.  None of the advice/guidance includes - or at least used to include - things like “have you ever considered you might be asexual?” or questions that might lead in that direction. It all seems based on the assumption that everyone is sexual and that consequently the only possible explanations are medical, emotional, technique-related, or personal (“there’s someone out there for you”).

 

Since asexuality is thought to be rare, I can see why it wouldn’t be the first line of questioning... but certain answers/a lack of success after trying common solutions should at least bring it to mind.

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The young generation seem to be more clued up. However they do need to realise that asexuality isnt just an orientation, it's important to be honest now that rarer orientations are much more acceptable, and mixed relationships don't really work unless both partners are very sexually fluid....let's say!

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7 hours ago, Apostle said:

When you enter into relationship and if it continues into marriage then that would constitute a contract. My SO effectively broke our contract so why should I leave the relationship?

I'm not saying that by my SO's action (or more relevantly, her non-action) she 'ruined my life' and made it 'impossible to live with' as I am a reasonable man and took the intelligent option of raising a family which, I may add, I would have had to abandon due to the laws of my country (very few men get custody of their children upon divorce in the UK).

 

If my SO has made any sacrifices in our relationship she has certainly not told me.

 

All I'm really saying is that asexuals should:

a) recognise that sexuality is a big part of a sexuals life and 

b) it would be quite nice to know beforehand before a full commitment to a relationship.

 

I don't think it's much to ask. It won't hurt anyone will it and it can stop a lot of pain further down the line?

 

Interestingly, there are many more singletons these days than there used to be. Perhaps the younger generation have cottoned on?

 

I would broaden this.  I wish more people recognized the wide range of human sexuality and appreciated that for many people, sexuality is both very important and unchangeable.   In most cases I think sexual compatibility (which can include asexuality) is essential to a happy relationship. 

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5 hours ago, anisotropic said:

Also @Ficto. had a characterization of sex... implying an ace partner is borderline hateful, just lying there waiting for it to finish. I wanted to say, my partner isn't sexually illiterate or uncaring. I'm thankful and hopefully respectful & careful, and he knows acting coldly during sex would just make me feel guilty and upset.

You're lucky, it's just not like that for many aces of course. For many, sex is a huge sacrifice and for females especially, it can be quite painful giving it without arousal. I wasn't trying to imply the ace gives it hatefully though, it's usually an act of selfless love to give something they don't want for the sake of their partner's happiness. It's just hard to also show enjoyment of something when you don't actually want it for your own happiness and get nothing out of it so you just lie there waiting for it to be over. I've been there myself and have known even high libido sexual women who have been had too at times. I just personally can't ever imagine being able to have sex with someone who is clearly only giving it to me because *I* want it but that's a different topic.

 

 

When an ace gives their partner sex they don't actually desire themselves (because I've seen you talk of your ace partner a few times and very few aces are like him) it's a massive act of selfless love. The aces isn't uncaring or sexually illiterate in these situations, sometimes it's just that the mere act of giving sex is so draining that there's nothing left over to try to show caring (like sweet words etc) or enjoyment during it. I've known many, many aces who have been there and will just be nodding along with what I'm saying because they know what I mean.

There's nothing hateful about it because if you didn't love that person with every frikken atom of your being, why would you do something like that for them? But yeah it's just a fact that for many aces (and it seems that more males are like your partner than females) sex is a sacrifice they make for the sake of love. Just like sexuals who are forced into celibacy are making that sacrifice out of love even though it's not something they enjoy or desire. They *endure* the celibacy (just like a sex-giving ace *endures* sex) out of love. It's not some hateful thing, for many anyway,  because if hate were involved it would be a LOT easier to just leave. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Apostle said:

When you enter into relationship and if it continues into marriage then that would constitute a contract. My SO effectively broke our contract so why should I leave the relationship?

This is another thing which varies by geography and by religion (or lack thereof).  The legal marriage contract in my country/state/county does not include language about providing or rightfully expecting sex.  I have seen religious vows that do specifically include requirements around sex and children.

 

It’s possible we keep disagreeing about this because we literally signed different things.

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27 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

it's just a fact that for many aces (and it seems that more males are like your partner than females) sex is a sacrifice they make for the sake of love

Well, yes, and it comes off as a really shitty relationship dynamic, to hear about sex with one partner that clearly detests it.

And... I'm especially thrown when it sounds like there are partners that hate sex and the partners aren't talking about it with each other? Are unable to understand each other? As if there's a huge empathy and communication breakdown, and alienation, and someone is privately going to AVEN to discuss the pain, or dead bedroom forums.

 

If a partner really doesn't like sex, why can't they say it? If the other partner loves them and won't leave, why can't they say "can you just hold me while I jerk off then" or "can you jerk me off" or "can you use this toy on me"? Is it too demeaning for the sexual partner? Too disgusting for the asexual partner?

 

I'm baffled how people can reach cardboard-lover stage, to be forcing themselves or others into it. Because I fully agree: who would want to be this way with someone they love? It sounds horrifying, it doesn't sound like a healthy relationship, I have trouble reading it.

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14 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I've never seen anyone apart from asexuals try to assert that explicit or not, there's no expectation that sex is part of a marriage.

I’m not disputing expectations.  Apostle has - and I think I’ve seen at least one other person who’s - stated several times that he and his wife entered into a legal contract which included sex.  I initially thought that was just expectations/interpretation but have subsequently done more research and found some marriage vows/contracts actually do directly include sex, children, or both.

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7 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

If a partner really doesn't like sex, why can't they say it? If the other partner loves them and won't leave,

Sometimes, it’s because they don’t think (sometimes justified, sometimes not) the other partner *will* continue to love/be in love with them and *will* not leave.

 

Other times it’s heard as a criticism of the other partner’s skill/technique/etc., which then either turns into a fight or results in being asked to do it a lot more to find a better way.

 

Good, effective communication on topics where people feel guilt and shame is difficult and rare.

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32 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I've never seen anyone apart from asexuals try to assert that explicit or not, there's no expectation that sex is part of a marriage.

Do you mean someone like this? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shameless-woman/201205/love-and-the-little-or-no-sex-marriage

 

45 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

This is another thing which varies by geography and by religion (or lack thereof).  The legal marriage contract in my country/state/county does not include language about providing or rightfully expecting sex.  I have seen religious vows that do specifically include requirements around sex and children.

 

It’s possible we keep disagreeing about this because we literally signed different things.

Hmm. I didn't know that there were some religious vows that included a "requirement" around sex and children. I wasn't brought up with any religion, so it's the topic I know least about. With royal weddings (and fictional movies) shown on T.V., I didn't hear any phrasing during the ceremony about the couple being required to have sex and/or children.

 

Some sexuals are infertile or have (or eventually have) medical problems (or who have intimacy issues, due to experience past abuse) that would inhibit or effect those "requirements," which seems a bit sad and unfair, to me, for religious doctrines to still require it of them.

 

I didn't think it was a requirement because I didn't grow up hearing my relatives discuss sex as though it was extremely important to them; they didn't mention it at all and seemed okay with focusing on other things in their lives. School sex ed classes mentioned it, though.

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15 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

Is it too demeaning for the sexual partner? Too disgusting for the asexual partner?

In my experience it’s more that people react very personally to not being able to satisfy one another “properly.”  Some people are not confident enough sexually to “fail” to pleasure a partner and take that as a matter-of-fact problem both can tackle rather than as a self-esteem hit.

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7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The whole point of that article is that sex is expected, and anyway they're having sex once a month. Hardly one partner deciding sex is no longer necessary and claiming it was never part of the deal.

That’s certainly the way it reads to me too. However it also strengthens my point that psychologists even don’t seem to recognise that someone can be happy with no desire even in a relationship. Hence it can be very difficult to realise that it’s not something “curable”

 

I don’t mean those in long term relationships because the lack of desire vs desire will always be a mismatch which is likely to lead to unhappiness for one or both because of the sacrifices one of them has to make to meet the other’s needs (whichever way round that is).

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9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I don't read it as being entirely a happy marriage, tbh.

I doubt if there is such a thing Telecaster. They all require some level of compromise, not just sex. After all we are individuals not robots with hormones. There’s bound to be some yin and yang moments even in the best marriages.

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1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Does it matter what's explicitly stated in the wedding vows then?

I just found it interesting that some marriage documents and religious traditions were so different than what I’m used to seeing.

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1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Isn't this what someone was saying early about 'just leaving' is seldom that simple once money, families and kids get involved? And when it comes down to it, it's perfectly viable for the asexual to just close down conversations because their partner just isn't going to leave, and they know it.

By someone, do you mean me?

 

If so, no, I think the question of why people don’t say they don’t like sex can be separate from the one about how ending a cohabitating LTR is complicated.

 

Alas, you never know someone won’t leave.

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14 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I completely agree. But saying to you at this point 'shut up - you could've left', which is what's been said to more than one sexual partner on here, would be to massively, and unsympathetically, simplify the situation.

Nobody's said "shut up", Tele.  And plenty of asexuals have also commented about the difficulties in being with someone who wants/expects what they can't provide, and wondered whether they should leave.  Those threads don't always appear in the Partners area, so perhaps you haven't read them.

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4 hours ago, anisotropic said:

 

 

If a partner really doesn't like sex, why can't they say it? If the other partner loves them and won't leave, why can't they say "can you just hold me while I jerk off then" or "can you jerk me off" or "can you use this toy on me"? Is it too demeaning for the sexual partner? Too disgusting for the asexual partner?

 

Masturbation and assisting it and manual stimulation are all still sexual and if you arent into someone sexually then its not exactly pleasant to get them off with hands or toys either...

 

It was actually less exhausting for me to just lie there for sex than to give a hand job. 

 

Before I found the person that sparked sexual interest in me, I let people know I wasnt into sex and didnt want. Did it anyway. And all the sexual acts, even just being touched in that way, were exhausting. I began dreading being near them. They found my lack of interest exhausting. 

 

Now I have found someone im interested in that way none of it is exhausting. And if they want and I dont its ok to just do a quick whatever for them. 

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A guy can just lie there too but... maybe the fact a male ace has to have a bit more mental presence (if only to give a hand job, or avoid losing an erection) makes falling into a "disengaged partner" sex scenario less likely.

 

But neither requires more effort in the "hold me" variant? I'll definitely take being held over doing it alone.

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23 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

A guy can just lie there too but... maybe the fact a male ace has to have a bit more mental presence (if only to give a hand job, or avoid losing an erection) makes falling into a "disengaged partner" sex scenario less likely.

 

But neither requires more effort in the "hold me" variant? I'll definitely take being held over doing it alone.

Holding someone while they masturbate still takes a lot of mental and emotional effort as its a sexual act you dont want... would it cause no mental or emotional reaction if say your platonic wrong gendered friend you had zero interest in that way asked it of you? Literally any sexual act takes an emotional and mental toll on someone when they dont want it. Because its a thing you really dont want and its a personal thing, not just going to the store for milk when you would rather not.

 

Plus... that wouldnt have been enough for anyone I have been with. My last ex needed oral and PiV, even hand jobs didnt work to satisfy him. 

 

2 hours ago, Apostle said:

Well now you know how mentally hard it is for men to perform. Women can just lie there and not move a muscle whereas men have to use both physical and mental abilities to perform.

It is well documented that women can look at the ceiling and think about shopping whilst sex is ongoing. Well, I can tell you that that is not possible for a man as he has to concentrate on the job in hand. Men can temporarily think of something apart from the sexual act just to stop premature ejaculation but any longer and the erection will dissipate. 

That is the difference.

Mmm. I think you misunderstand. Yes, men have to concentrate to maintain an erection, which would be difficult, I am sure (though would hope it would be OK with the partner  to switch to some other way if it was too difficult..) But, women who are not aroused also need to concentrate, or it causes a lot of pain, so its not exactly easy either. Not just a lie there and its super easy and no big deal.  You can use lube to fix the issue of no moisture, but that doesnt relax the vaginal muscles the way arousal does. Thinking of other things during was actually a good way of trying to stay in the mental zone needed to be able to relax the muscles enough. If I slipped and forgot myself and the muscles went back to their natural state then the pain felt like being punched hard with a stabbing sensation going up into my abdomen. So, distracting myself by running to do lists or music lyrics through my head was a mental exercise to keep my mind off what I was doing so I could relax my body enough to not want to cry from the pain of lack of arousal. I actually would run out of things to think of during, cause it would be nearly an hour and I would have to strain to think of something. 

 

But even with the risk of pain, it was the least involved sexual act so emotionally it was easier to do than the other stuff. Even so, it took 10-15 minutes in the bathroom to mentally prep going "OK. It will be over soon. Just about 40 minutes and you will be done. Then you can do something you enjoy to get over it. Just 40 minutes." Just mentally repeating a pep talk to myself to be able to suffer through it. And I needed a few hours alone after to get back into a good mood. 

 

Since I have experienced arousal now and my current spouse sparked my libido, I havent felt any pain in anything we have done. My body naturally makes itself ready for sexual stuff. It isnt emotionally and mentally draining, it feels good. I actually want to be around my spouse after, during, before. There isnt any mental prep. And if its a eh not really in the mood but i want to do for you, then its still nice... it doesnt feel like I just spent 12 hours at a job i hate and need to unwind, which is the feeling I got with my exes. 

 

Being sexually attracted to your partner is just so incredibly different than not being. I honestly get how people dont understand how hard it can be if you arent into sex at all. Because even if you arent "in the mood" exactly you are still into your partner like that, so not that bad. As opposed to... omg not again I hate this, but I will suffer it cause it makes you happy. 

 

So if the ace can get into eh not that bad, or its nice, compromises can work. But, when they cant, thats when issues happen. And switching the sexual act to some other sex act isnt a solution that works for everyone because its still a sexual act and it may still cause a huge emotional and mental drain to do. And it might not even really satisfy their partner. 

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53 minutes ago, Serran said:

Holding someone while they masturbate still takes a lot of mental and emotional effort as its a sexual act you dont want... would it cause no mental or emotional reaction if say your platonic wrong gendered friend you had zero interest in that way asked it of you?

No. I can't imagine loving & living with someone and not feeling a sense of happiness at their happiness. And platonic friend: I'd mainly worry about hurting them by leading them on and not being able to do a good job. I turned down someone female, but it was because I couldn't return her love. I don't think my indifference or willingness makes me pansexual...

 

That said, I've never felt romantic feelings for women, I fail to even manage friendships. I did go along with sex (not piv) with a male friend that cared about me, and that caring was love & attraction that I didn't feel any reciprocity. And I felt positive about having gone along with it because of how it made him feel. If I'd retained a friendship with the female in that manner, I can definitely imagine doing the same, but we were never close, her infatuation passed and his had endured the years...

 

I'm curious about sex with women and try imagining it (to some extent this shift night be occurring with my gender identity changes), but I never manage to have much interaction with women. I think I might be a fairly sex indifferent person in the absence of attraction. But I recognize many sexual people aren't, which is why I don't think aversion in the absence of attraction is an "ace thing"... I don't know how unusual it is to feel indifferent.

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7 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

I think I might be a fairly sex indifferent person in the absence of attraction. But I recognize many sexual people aren't, which is why I don't think aversion in the absence of attraction is an "ace thing"... I don't know how unusual it is to feel indifferent.

Yeah.. most people I know arent gonna be happy having sex with anyone who asks as long as they like the person, regardless of gender or attraction. They need to be interested in the person somehow, romantic or sexual. Not sure if that is very common, but not with people in my life. 

 

But, general interest in sex probably helps too. Personally, before I met my current spouse, I had no interest or pleasure from anything sexual. I didn't masturbate, never been "turned on", never had an orgasm (people certainly tried though...), had literally no interest and no libido. So I got nothing at all from it. 

 

Another difference is with a partner its an expected frequent event. First few months with my exes didnt bug me much. But, a near daily event at 30-40 minutes of deeply personal, draining, not at all pleasurable stuff that you do just for someone else and get nothing at all... wore me down so much. When I left my last ex I swore off all sexual everything. After 10 years of suffering through it for him I was just done. I had suffered through sex I didnt want for other people since I was 15, with four different people. When I added up how many times it was over 3,000 hours spent doing a thing I hated just for someone else to be happy. 

 

And honestly it sucked cause sex made them feel closer to me and made them happy. Sex made me feel distant from them and made me unhappy. I essentially traded my happiness for theirs. I started doing it at 15, I stopped at 29. 

 

And I talked to a lot of aces that felt like I did over that period after I found AVEN. Wanting their loved ones happy, but the only way to do it was to trade their own happiness away. Wanting their partner to feel close and loved, but only way was to make themselves feel a million miles away from their partner and unloved. 

 

Which is why i ID'd as ace for a while. I found a lot of people here who got it. Who related to the feelings I had.

 

But... then I met my spouse and she had no sexual expectations of me. And now I have a very healthy sex life. Go figure. :lol: So i dont ID as ace anymore. But, I still have years of feeling lonely and broken and the complete mismatch of partners wanting me and me being unable to return it. And all the PMs from aces who could relate so well and were just as lost in how to make it work.  

 

But yeah. Love cant make everyone OK with sex, especially not long term and frequent like a partner needs. 

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29 minutes ago, Serran said:

Yeah.. most people I know arent gonna be happy having sex with anyone who asks as long as they like the person, regardless of gender or attraction. They need to be interested in the person somehow, romantic or sexual.

Well, happy is a bit strong! I certainly have to feel safe, trust in a couple ways (including that it's not hurting that person).

 

But the last sentence here is part of what I'm getting at: romantic attraction could be enough... but I have no idea what that feels like, so hopefully the long term male friend is a close approximation.

 

Even so, it feels very very different to me, without attraction. I didn't want sex when I realized my partner was likely feeling like I did about that friend... My therapist said "this feels really upsetting to you but it's the only way he has sex, and he's telling you it's ok". (But me knowing he could be lying a bit, right?) It's so different...

 

But also I thought more about how it felt, could feel positive... but be stressful/negative to not meet expectations, to do it "on demand", what things affected how I felt... A zone that *can* be positive, of given the right context.

 

Sex is pretty emotional...

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