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Asexual Flag Voting (First Round)


standup

Asexual Flag Voting - Please Choose 3 from Each Category  

  1. 1. "Simple" Flags Part One (Horizontal & Triangle)

    • A
      90
    • B
      45
    • C
      21
    • D
      20
    • E
      19
    • F
      30
    • G
      31
    • H
      31
    • I
      24
    • J
      15
    • K
      8
    • L
      17
    • M
      5
    • N
      71
    • O
      70
    • P
      15
    • Q
      29
    • I would prefer not to have a flag.
      47
  2. 2. "Simple" Flags Part Two (Vertical & Diagonal)

    • A
      60
    • B
      25
    • C
      22
    • D
      6
    • E
      24
    • F
      60
    • G
      55
    • H
      25
    • I
      31
    • J
      19
    • K
      20
    • L
      19
    • N
      35
    • O
      20
    • P
      22
    • Q
      50
    • I would prefer not to have a flag.
      59
  3. 3. "Symbol" Flags

    • A
      44
    • B
      9
    • C
      19
    • D
      4
    • E
      10
    • F
      13
    • G
      8
    • H
      6
    • I
      98
    • J
      34
    • K
      7
    • L
      23
    • M
      47
    • N
      63
    • O
      45
    • P
      20
    • Q
      14
    • I would prefer not to have a flag.
      67
  4. 4. Do you want a flag to represent Asexuality?

    • Yes
      216
    • No
      51


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Erm, a flag is a symbol of the community, not the community itself. It doesn't demand that all the depth and variety of people can stand on a standard sized flag or else. It doesn't trivialise in any way or make us seem insecure, it says that we're here and we're a group to be taken seriously and watch our colours fly.

It isn't to give us pride, it's to help convey that pride to the outside world both at Pride events (notice the capital) and in any other event a person may like. It makes it a lot easier to have a symbol or colours up there so when people talk about us they've got something easy to point to or draw and say that this is the front cover of a community that is as rich and deep as the best novel that's been written.

It in no way takes away from who we are, from what we are it is simply a symbol and if you want to be less poetic it's another tool.

I mean seriously, you wanna say there's no diversity in America because they have a flag? You want to say that the rainbow flag implies all gay people fit within a few easily defined boxes and there's no more than three or so variations between them all?

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asexual cake

From my understanding, the addition of a flag isn't about wanting to have a symbol to create a sense of community, but rather to represent us as a means of gaining visibility, one of AVEN's primary purposes. Obviously one symbol can't sum up the whole of a community, especially one as diverse as ours, but like standup said, it isn't about creating community but representing one that's already established. Of course we don't need a flag - as dissenters have said, we've gone this long without one - but I don't think that it can really hurt, especially since flags are such an easy way to show that you're representing something (and, thus, can be employed to spread visibility at things like parades and pride festivals).

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ThePieMaker

I mean seriously, you wanna say there's no diversity in America because they have a flag? You want to say that the rainbow flag implies all gay people fit within a few easily defined boxes and there's no more than three or so variations between them all?

Well, there are various forms of the gay flag that the different sections have created.

Yes, this community is about visibility. But visibility through facts, not symbols.

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What I'd like to know is how many votes are needed to decide to have a flag/what flag to have. Do votes from, say, 20 Avenites, count as speaking for the community?

(I'm not against having a flag or anything, as Pug says it can't hurt)

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Ally, do you think the rainbow flag makes gays "trivial"? I honestly want to know why you feel so strongly about this, because I don't understand.

Ninny, I think if 20 people vote against having a flag by the end of the week, we'll have to open a discussion thread about the pros and cons of having a flag. I thought it was covered in the "ideas" thread I made earlier, but I suppose if there is a large amount of dissent such as that, then the matter will need to be discussed to a further degree.

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ThePieMaker

Ally, do you think the rainbow flag makes gays "trivial"? I honestly want to know why you feel so strongly about this, because I don't understand.

Did I not just tell you why? Because we don't need one. Maybe I'm a little old school here. I've been identifying as asexual for over 2 1/2 years and happily so without a flag. One of the things I actually loved about the community was not having a flag. We didn't feel the need for one. We knew who we were and were proud and showed our pride without it. We felt like a community and showed we were a community without it. I love the asexual community. We do things a little differently and we challenge the status quo and cause some people to really look and think about love and attraction and what makes the human condition (or at least I've had many people come to me with questions about asexuality and thanked me later for opening their eyes up and changing their view a little bit) and I feel like this is going to take away some of that charm. Some of that uniqueness. Some of that quirk. We are just going to become another sexual orientation flag.

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asexual cake

I mean seriously, you wanna say there's no diversity in America because they have a flag? You want to say that the rainbow flag implies all gay people fit within a few easily defined boxes and there's no more than three or so variations between them all?

Well, there are various forms of the gay flag that the different sections have created.

Yes, this community is about visibility. But visibility through facts, not symbols.

Symbols can motivate people to look for facts, though.

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Ally, do you think the rainbow flag makes gays "trivial"? I honestly want to know why you feel so strongly about this, because I don't understand.

Did I not just tell you why? Because we don't need one. Maybe I'm a little old school here. I've been identifying as asexual for over 2 1/2 years and happily so without a flag. One of the things I actually loved about the community was not having a flag. We didn't feel the need for one. We knew who we were and were proud and showed our pride without it. We felt like a community and showed we were a community without it. I love the asexual community. We do things a little differently and we challenge the status quo and cause some people to really look and think about love and attraction and what makes the human condition (or at least I've had many people come to me with questions about asexuality and thanked me later for opening their eyes up and changing their view a little bit) and I feel like this is going to take away some of that charm. Some of that uniqueness. Some of that quirk. We are just going to become another sexual orientation flag.

That sounds kind of elitist, to be honest. The fact that you think having a flag will make asexuals be "less special" or "less unique" or that people will view you any less just because there's a design on a piece of fabric backing up the word you identify with the most (or at least strongly) is ridiculous. You make it sound demeaning, and it's not. I know we view this from completely different perspectives, and I don't want to offend you. I just don't think having a flag has any harm in it at all. It will make asexuality a little more open, less like an exclusive club, and more like something people can identify with because they were informed about it and have come to an understanding about themselves. Asexuality shouldn't be limited to AVEN.

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The number of votes against it needed to go 'oooo, no, HALT!' shouldn't be a specific number, I think, so much as a percentage. It's fairer that way.

And I still have no idea how having a flag makes a community less special, unique or demeans them in any way.

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ThePieMaker

I didn't mean to sound elitist. I'm not saying "Everyone who doesn't have a flag is super awesome. All people with flags are totally lame-o." But, yeah, it's nice that we operate a little differently. And how is not wanting a flag any more elitist than wanting a flag? How is creating a flag being inclusive? It visually separates us from the rest of the world.

And asexuality isn't limited to AVEN. There are plenty of people who aren't on AVEN who identify as asexual and are proud of it. I know we aren't the end all be all here of asexuality and the asexual community. But why must there be a need for a flag?

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I'm putting this up in the Digest shortly.

Personally I am of the opinion that we don't need a flag. If there's going to be an official flag representing asexuality, representing me, I'd want it to mean something, not just be something arbitrary. It's all very well saying I don't have to use it, but it will still be representing me as an asexual, like somebody above said, whether I like it or not, so that's why I feel it's really important to make sure that this is something that the comunity as a whole actively wants, and to have that option on the poll. To be honest, from what I've read of Pride marches, particularly in the UK, over the last couple of years, placards with slogans like 'flaming asexual' and 'asexuals don't give a ****', with the odd AVEN triangle thrown in, appear to be a much more successful way of generating visibility.

I'm not trying to belittle the idea or comment on the quality of the submissions here, I just don't think the asexual community has anything it could put on a flag that would represent us in any meaningful way in an official capacity, and until/unless we do I'd rather have nothing.

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Oh Valen, your icon....

And larger exposure so more can have their say and their vote is what we need, so great! I think we tried to get as many as we could coming up with flag designs, and the colours come from colours that already mean stuff so none of it is meaningless to me even if, erm, some of the design aren't exactly what I'd want. But that's why we have the vote.

And yeah Pride marches are great, and we reached a lot of people, but a flag would have been nice, made an impact that we aren't just some willy nilly group. And some of us would just like to have a flag cause we want something of that stature to represent us.

And if we're worried about this being just English speaking AVEN - is there any way to duplicate not so much this poll, but the round where the ones that get a decent number of votes face off.... is there any way of getting that poll duplicated across the various other language versions of AVEN and the other main Asexual forums/hubs? We could combine all the votes in all the places for a grand total vote and go from that.

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Guest fridayoak

I can't really see any problem in having a flag with the asexuality colours in (I voted "didn't want one" in section 3 cos I didn't like the ones with symbols).

But even if one with a symbol was chosen I don't care too much, I can't see the problem with having a flag, like people have been saying if you don't wanna use it then don't (I can't imagine it'll play much part in people's day to day lives, just appear in Pride marches and stuff).

And those who are strongly against having one can burn said flag in protest if they really want anyway :lol:

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Bad Patient

And if we're worried about this being just English speaking AVEN - is there any way to duplicate not so much this poll, but the round where the ones that get a decent number of votes face off.... is there any way of getting that poll duplicated across the various other language versions of AVEN and the other main Asexual forums/hubs? We could combine all the votes in all the places for a grand total vote and go from that.

I can repost the poll on the Polish forum... or try to, since we use a different board engine that doesn't support polls of this kind. But I could try to use some sort of polling website or something.

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I... could care less about a flag, honestly, although I kind of want one because I like flags and things. (And I would totally wear a button with the AVEN triangle on it on my backpack. Buttons are easier to carry than flags!) I honestly don't think they're particularly useful outside pride marches, when you need to have some sort of way to designate your group from the broad march, but I don't see any reason not to have one either. Mainly I think visibility is better dealt with by using things you can wear around your every day, and it's hard to carry a flag around all the time.

But I don't see why not to have one, and let it pick up steam or get fiddled with over time. We already have explanations for all of the colors on the proposed flags--purple for us, black for asexuals, grey for grey-As, white for sexuals--so it's not like they're actually meaningless.

For the record, I've been identifying as asexual for five years now, if we're playing "how long have you been in the asexual community." I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting something to wave to show who you are. I certainly don't think the flag will make the community any less cohesive or accepting if we do choose to adopt one. Who would, when it comes down to it, be left out? We even have a color placed on all of the proposed designs specifically for nonasexual people!

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asexual cake

I... could care less about a flag, honestly, although I kind of want one because I like flags and things. (And I would totally wear a button with the AVEN triangle on it on my backpack. Buttons are easier to carry than flags!) I honestly don't think they're particularly useful outside pride marches, when you need to have some sort of way to designate your group from the broad march, but I don't see any reason not to have one either. Mainly I think visibility is better dealt with by using things you can wear around your every day, and it's hard to carry a flag around all the time.

But I don't see why not to have one, and let it pick up steam or get fiddled with over time. We already have explanations for all of the colors on the proposed flags--purple for us, black for asexuals, grey for grey-As, white for sexuals--so it's not like they're actually meaningless.

For the record, I've been identifying as asexual for five years now, if we're playing "how long have you been in the asexual community." I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting something to wave to show who you are. I certainly don't think the flag will make the community any less cohesive or accepting if we do choose to adopt one. Who would, when it comes down to it, be left out? We even have a color placed on all of the proposed designs specifically for nonasexual people!

The flag could potentially be replicated on things that could be carried around. LGBTQetc. merchandise (that's either generally queer or specifically homosexuality-focused) has rainbows all over, and if the (perhaps prevailing?) preference for a simple striped flag were to win out, the asexuality rainbow-of-four-colours could be put on all manner of things, from buttons to shirts. Of course, that could happen now anyway, but it might carry more gravity if it were specifically associated with something like a flag.

But, like Sciatrix, I don't feel particularly strongly in or against support of the creation of a flag, though I do think it would be useful to spread visibility. And I like flags. If enough people felt strongly opposed to it, though (and it wouldn't have to be a majority, just a large showing), I would argue against making one "official."

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Yay, this is awesome.

I know that some don't like the idea, but I can see this only as helping us, not hurting, because when people see it, they might ask themselves what that is.

I hope though that the simple ones (No triangles or symbols) wins though...

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Oh, I am excited. My flag and its slightly altered companion are doing well! :D G & H in Diagonals etc., if you're curious.

I hope we pick a flag. Flags are cool.

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A flag just seems equatable to an attention whore's irritating and derisible "look at me, look at me".

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trisarahtops

I love the idea of a flag, but wouldn't be crushed if it didn't happen. Sciatrix: asexy pins would be awesome for sure!

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It's funny how something meant to unify us is separating us into the pro-flag and the anti-flag

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Guest Fosco

I wouldn't like to see a flag.

I can't see who, why, where and when it would ever get used.

So few Asexuals, so many of them closeted about their Asexuality. I just can't see a practical use for it.

Nor do I think such symbols get voted in, they are naturally adopted.

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A flag just seems equatable to an attention whore's irritating and derisible "look at me, look at me".

This. You even used the word I was going to use (re: "attention whore").

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inkingthestar

when asked if i wanted a flag, i mulled it over and decided it would be something worth considering. then i see in this thread that designs have already been thought up and narrowed down? when countries decide to declare themselves independant and create a flag to represent them, they don't just go "some guy came up with some good ideas, and let's choose from these." the designs have MEANING-- it's not just a cool picture they like. the stars and stripes of the USA have MEANING. there's a reason there are so many stripes, so many stars, the colors of each. i hate to say it, but i find it almost offensive that all this is being drawn up and voted on without a preliminary "who actually WANTS a flag?" poll done FIRST, and the post in question being drawn up by someone who's been here for less than a month. i'm all for new folks, lord knows i was an ace long before i came to this community, but don't you think this matter is something best thought out completely?

there are so many questions and things to consider. firstly, who WANTS an asexuality flag? and THEN, if the majority of aces are into the idea, THEN start considering what said flag should look like and what we would want it to say.

i'm not against the idea of having a flag, i just think things should be taken a bit more seriously if we're talking about an 'official' flag. slow down and put some thought into it.

note: if this post is disjointed-- i have jet lag. that is all.

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The flag could potentially be replicated on things that could be carried around. LGBTQetc. merchandise (that's either generally queer or specifically homosexuality-focused) has rainbows all over, and if the (perhaps prevailing?) preference for a simple striped flag were to win out, the asexuality rainbow-of-four-colours could be put on all manner of things, from buttons to shirts.

This is entirely why I support us having a flag. It has less to do with having a thing to wave over my head and more with wanting us to have a universally acknowledged symbol that can be put on bracelets, t-shirts, buttons, etc. If you put a rainbow on something people get that it means gay pride; I think it'd be neat to be able to wear a bracelet in our colors knowing that it's our official symbol.

Besides, aren't we already establishing a color symbol for ourselves? I've admittedly never been to a pride parade, but from the pictures and videos I've seen there seems to be quite a theme of purple going on with banners and clothing. If we keep up our involvement in pride events, even if we DON'T have a flag eventually the purple banner will be recognized by others and seen as our symbol. I don't see how that's any different than waving a flag.

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I've just been having a long think about this.

AVEN does not need a flag. Not “need”. Maybe would like, but not need. We won’t die without it. A flag is a supplement to our visibility arsenal, yet another visual sign, a thing to wave with, if not pride, then at least happiness or contentment that your life is just fine with you being Ace. I won’t be upset if we decide against a flag, although I can’t see the harm it can do. Part of me likes the unregulated creativity that we have already, the fluidity of our expression with what we have- such as the tie-dye shirts for Pride or the multi-coloured weaved bracelets or whatever (although we only recently put our fingers on the four colours, and even then most AVENites didn’t input in on that either and it may itself fade into obscurity in time). Of course, a flag wouldn’t prevent this creativity, but I might be able to see the argument that it puts more rigidity in our actions in making official tokens.

AVEN is a friendly, relaxed, diverse, laid back community and for many is a haven or a soothing area away from the crappiness of life or whatever, and I suppose I can also see the argument that an official flag and other hard symbolism of us runs a serious note through that safe place. That’s not to say we don’t need a few serious notes. Pride is a serious note. TV appearances are a serious note. And so on… I can see a little bit how the idea of pushing for a flag might be seen to some as a bit threatening; some come here just to be themselves and might get tangled mentally in that “we need to be serious” web. The parades and interviews occur to people who get involved in it personally, but a flag is a complete community thing, you can’t shy away and say “good for them” because this affects You. I can’t really put it into words, I kinda understand in my own head though.

Part of me does think though that having a flag would be an idea because we strive for equality with other sexualities and having a flag would bring us in line with them. I partly feel like rejecting a flag would be a little backward, while someone else feels that it would demean us, I get a feeling of the opposite, like anyone who is anyone has a flag and we, without a flag, are a little more obscure for it. Some people in the past have asked us questions (like the recent bracelet thread where the OP was asked what the asexual colour scheme was so she could make sexuality bracelets and had to be told we didn’t have one) and it seems to me we would be asked, “What are the asexual colours?” “We don’t have any.” “What is the asexual flag?” “We don’t have any.” “Do you have any symbols at all?” “We have cake?”

On the topic of symbols, another argument against the flag was that it would be representing all of asexuality, but would be decided by AVEN and that means non-AVENite asexuals wouldn’t get a say in it. Yes, of course. We have also mentioned that we have other symbols. The AVEN triangle. The ace of hearts or spades. The black ring. The cake. But the fact is, AVEN chose them. By default, they too become AVEN symbols, not asexuality symbols. We chose the triangle to represent us, and the ace and black ring to represent asexuality. AVEN is the God here, pointing at the rest of the asexual mortals and choosing already. None of these decisions in history have ever been made with the consent of every single person. No country ever decided their national flag, anthem, dish, animal, by asking and getting agreement from every single person. AVEN, as the largest percentage, is the best we can do to get the largest amount of consent for anything, flag or any other issue. Call us the asexual government maybe. Anyone can join (as long as they don’t use the trolling equivalent of spending taxpayers money on a duck house) and the government is limitless in capacity. Yes, I’m sorry that people who aren’t on AVEN don’t get to choose, but they are free to come here and input, it’s not like they are barred from entering. There’s no obligation for an asexual to be an AVENite but it does seem like if you want to get involved in asexual politics, this is the place to be. And of course, the main complaint is that this is happening now . After all, gay people now adopt the flag that has been around before they were. It is Their Flag. They didn’t get a say in it, but they’ll wave it with pride. I didn’t get a say in the Union Flag, nor the St George’s Cross. No one here got a say in the Stars and Stripes. Do we hold a new poll on them because we didn’t choose them? I’m not trying to be inflammatory, I think this objection is because our flag thread is an “up in your face” moment and very much Here and Now rather than something that’s been established for some time. No doubt if we did go through with a flag, the years would erode those objections for many. Because in years to come, with something made and completed, they know it’s too late to have a say in it so they won’t say anything.

I’m trying to understand both viewpoints and I’m sorry this came out as a long ramble, I’m not even sure I achieved anything by typing it.

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Besides, aren't we already establishing a color symbol for ourselves? I've admittedly never been to a pride parade, but from the pictures and videos I've seen there seems to be quite a theme of purple going on with banners and clothing. If we keep up our involvement in pride events, even if we DON'T have a flag eventually the purple banner will be recognized by others and seen as our symbol. I don't see how that's any different than waving a flag.

I also have to say that there were several large plain purple banners at Pride- we were sandwiched between a few. So the purple banner alone already is in common usage. The advantage to the flag suggestions is that they include other colours (the four colour black, grey, white, purple is popular at the moment) which gives the idea more definition. It says "we didn't just pick a random colour that we thought would look good on our banner, there's meaning to this". But I agree that hopefully purple will be recognised as having some connection to us, even if the best justification we can come up with for why we've put our claws in it is because "our forum boards are that colour".

~Edit

Oh and something else I find interesting- in the poll you have to vote in each of the categories in order to submit your votes. Logically, if people don't want a flag, each option of "no flag" would be equal, but they aren't (currently 7, 9 and 11 respectively) which means that a few people have actually voted for flags and then said they don't want one?

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Acer? I think you said a lot of what I've been thinking there. Not all but a hell of a lot.

And yeah, there was a giant purple banner right in front of us. And that group didn't walk at a steady pace even when we didn't have to all halt cause a road got thinner or something so several times our group would mingle in with the end of theirs. Other times it was so crowded a single colour banner got lost where as the flags and guy running around in awesome black and silver body paint got seen very clearly.

Seriously, I loved the artwork of that body paint.

But there was a lot of purple in our area, and other similar colours. And that's just our one section - there's a lot of others out there. Purple, whilst very us to those of us here, on Pride isn't thaaaat special. For that you need a colour combo and even better a flag to go with.

Though next time, we also need more sun cream. Ouch.

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asexual cake

Oh and something else I find interesting- in the poll you have to vote in each of the categories in order to submit your votes. Logically, if people don't want a flag, each option of "no flag" would be equal, but they aren't (currently 7, 9 and 11 respectively) which means that a few people have actually voted for flags and then said they don't want one?

I think some people just didn't like any of the flags available in those categories.

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Yeah, I thought that after a while. A little bit deceptive though. Oh, isn't it getting complicated lol. I said at the beginning this wouldn't be an easy affair lol.

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