Islam

[strangebird]

Nope. I dig science. Ask me what my cherishly held beliefs are before you decide what they are for me. I hate it when that happens. Fundies do that all the time, though. :lol:

I keep failing to quote properly. I doubt I will fix it in my time here. Alas.

[Henny]

Nope. I dig science. Ask me what my cherishly held beliefs are before you decide what they are for me. I hate it when that happens. Fundies do that all the time, though. :lol:

Well, you've claimed that you are a Muslim, which I can only assume is a cherishly held belief (correct me if I'm wrong, though). But since you dig science, what makes you think Allah is a more probable deity than all the other gods or no god(s) at all?

[strangebird]

What does it mean to be Muslim? What does Islam mean? What is Allah? Educate me some more I'm LOVING this.

[LarissaFae]

Well...to be fair, I agree that Islam can be a great religion (as far as religions go), but didn't Mohammed start out by waging war with anyone in the surrounding area who didn't believe in Allah? My recollection is blurry at best, so don't quote me on this post...however, I'm wary of any religion which proclaims that it is the only true religion and that all who do not believe are doomed or evil (or both).

And yes, that category includes many religions; I'm not a fan of organized religion at all.

All the battles that Muhammad fought in were political battles, or Muslims defending themselves against others who were attacking them. 75 battles in 10 years, and 4,000 people died total, half of them Muslim.

And while there are verses condemning non-believers and those who actively fight against faith of any kind, there are also even more verses talking about treating people equally and fairly, and talking about God being the only one who can decide who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven; it's not for a human to decide at all.

[strangebird]

I'm going to put this out there because I can. ;)

Someone starts a thread about a belief she holds. Rather than leave her to share her belief with others, others come along to make claims which suggest she is stupid and pretty much has no clue, thus alienating her from a community of what could well be her peers. She may be struggling. She may need to find some like-minded people, which is usually why folks come to places like Aven (or other online communities).

Can I please now draw your attention to the following thread here at Aven:

http://www.asexuality.org/en/index.php?showtopic=38747

A person jumped into an Atheist thread with some fairly ridiculous remarks considering the nature of that thread. Everyone was rightly (even righteously) in an uproar. Atheist people neither want to nor need to be "prayed for" and everyone made that stance quite remarkable. Perhaps rather than suggesting they would "pray for you" by putting that in a post (all the responses to that were incredibly valid to my point of view, by the way), said poster could have just prayed for you if that is what she felt, according to her beliefs, was the correct (even righteous) thing to do. What was the point of saying she had to do it? Pretty egregious, wasn't it? Shocking, really. Fundamentalist even. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism "Fundamentalism refers to a belief in a strict adherence to a set of basic principles (often religious in nature), sometimes as a reaction to perceived doctrinal compromises with modern social and political life."

Folks say there is no such thing as Atheist Fundamentalism and frankly, you're mistaken. Look at what the fundamentalist Christian did by suggesting she would pray for you for just a moment with your logical mind (you love your logical mind, yes?). How is what you do any different to that? How is telling someone what they believe, or making assumptions on someone's beliefs without knowing what they are any different to what she did? How is your way the right way and any other way incorrect?

I believe in science. I will say it again. I love the big bang, I love the Hubble telescope, I love the idea of Dark Matter and I am actually a trained and qualified scientist. I am not an atheist, however, because I don't have any scientific proof there is no creative force that brought life to be. You don't either. The difference between us is that I'm not so up myself to think I could possibly understand all of that. I'm a tiny little speck of a creature on a tiny little speck of a planet in a tiny little speck of a galaxy. I believe, however, that science will one day reach the point where we can prove the existence of a creative force or power. Do what you like in the meantime with you life. Let me live my life. Let me find like-minded people who I can create community with. Doesn't seem like much to ask. The minute you begin to stomp around all ego-charged and superior with your uberintellectual woohoo is the minute I say you're honestly no better than any rabid Bible bashing fundie.

(Other people may have replied to this topic but I was on a roll). 8)

[Henny]

What does it mean to be Muslim? What does Islam mean? What is Allah? Educate me some more I'm LOVING this.

So I'm guessing you don't want to reply, then? "Islam" is generally considered to be a monotheistic religion articulated by the Qur'an. That monotheistic deity is called Allah, and the adherents of that religion are called Muslims. I think that's about as basic as it gets. If I say I'm Swedish, I'm not going to go upset if people ask me what's it like living in Sweden and say that by "Swedish" I actually meant someone who likes tropical drinks.

[strangebird]

Google. It's such a cool thing. Really. If you want to know what something is, it's right out there for you to discover. Woot! I can even visit Sweden and never have to say tack to anyone if I don't want to!

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=sweden&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

[LarissaFae]

In practice yes some women are treated badly, but read the Qur'an women are equal to men it says the exact opposite in the bible.

Separate but equal?

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/D_C_-police-won_t-intervene-to-remove-women-from-mosques-96758814.html

The D.C. police department will no longer intervene in an ongoing protest by Islamic women over their place in area mosques, The Washington Examiner has learned.

A group of Muslim women has provoked confrontations in mosques in and around the capital for months by claiming the right to worship next to men. The gestures have led to angry arguments between the women and conservative men among the Muslim worshipers.

As late as February of this year, D.C. police escorted a group of women out of the Islamic Center on Massachusetts Avenue Northwest after complaints from the men there. There was another confrontation in Falls Church last month, and police intervened there, too.

Edit:

By the way, I completely agree that mosques and churches are not public property, and they should be completely free to practice discrimination and eject from the premises whomever they see fit. But I also think that if they are going to do so, they should not be afforded the privilege of tax-exempt status and government grants for "charitable" work.

I can eject anyone from my home, even of the basis of race, national origin or religion. But I have to pax income tax.

The women of the Prophet's time prayed in the same space as the men did. They prayed behind the men, but in the same space, and the segregation and expulsion of women from mosques is based on cultural biases, not religious ones. Islamically, you can NOT keep a woman from going to the mosque if she wants to be there. These men aren't following the teachings of Islam, and as a practicing Muslim, I'm ashamed to be associated with them. Islam's strayed from the time when women and men prayed together freely, when women taught in universities all over the Islamic world, and were doctors and lawyers and anything else they wanted to be. But that isn't the religion's fault, just like it's not Catholocism's fault that some priests molest children, or that redemption by a priest used to be sold.

[strangebird]

But Larissa the secular world wants us to bend over and show our arses to men, obviously even the asexual secular world can't grasp why that might not be appropriate. :lol:

[Henny]

Google. It's such a cool thing. Really. If you want to know what something is, it's right out there for you to discover. Woot! I can even visit Sweden and never have to say tack to anyone if I don't want to!

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=sweden&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

Wait, so you're telling me that I can dig up the most ridiculous article ever for scientific evidence for Islam, and that would be your personal view of why Allah is more probable? (Why do even have this forum if we can google everything?)

[strangebird]

No dear, I'm not. I'm asking you what I believe in. Tell me again. You were telling me what I believe in and then you got all choked up when I made you uncomfortable about your position.

[Henny]

No dear, I'm not. I'm asking you what I believe in. Tell me again. You were telling me what I believe in and then you got all choked up when I made you uncomfortable about your position.

You believe in a deity called Allah. If that is incorrect, you better tell me how exactly you define "Muslim". Though now I'm sort of confounded as to why you told me to go to Google...

[strangebird]

To learn stuff. I give up though. You want to push your beliefs on other people in order to disprove other people's beliefs without stating any proofs yourself, you don't want to learn. Just like a fundamentalist. :) Have a good one.

[LarissaFae]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh bligyn. Just wanted to say that. How do you see asexuality fitting in with the fard of having a partner being half the deen? I practiced for some years (as a revert) but could not balance many of my personal issues (political, spiritual) with what was considered fard according to sunnah.

I agree with quite a bit of what is said here in this thread but also feel that atheists can be as fundamentalist as just about any other religion. That's right. Religion. "Religion is often described as a communal system for the coherence of belief focusing on a system of thought, unseen being, person, or object, that is considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine, or of the highest truth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

I like tolerance in faith-based matters and I REALLY dig science. Give me science that proves or disproves a creative force or being and I'll hop on your boat. Until then, do what you like and keep your didactic fanatacism out of my coffee hour.

Wa alaikum assalam!

The way that I view asexuality fitting in with Islam is that having children is only a PART of what marriage is about; it's also about companionship and love, which you can have without sexual desire. You can even have children without sexual desire. So, as long as both partners come to an agreement regarding sex and children, there's not much conflict. Asexuals aren't choosing abstinence and supressing their sexual desires; that's what Islam says not to do.

[strangebird]

Very well said, Larissa. Thanks for making a point I could never quite get to. :)

[Henny]

OK, I'd like to think people on this forum have noble intentions, and not out to provoke a reaction. My patience is starting to thin, though, and I don't want to take a bait of some sort. <_<

To learn stuff. I give up though. You want to push your beliefs on other people in order to disprove other people's beliefs without stating any proofs yourself, you don't want to learn. Just like a fundamentalist. :) Have a good one.

Erm, what was that about telling other people what they believe? Now you're talking about "my beliefs". If you for any reason don't want to answer my question, fine, I don't expect people to answer all my questions. I'm thinking you don't actually have any sort of scientific evidence, but all right. I will not pursue this conversation, especially not with someone who directs me to Google "to learn stuff".

[LarissaFae]

I'm going to put this out there because I can. ;)

Someone starts a thread about a belief she holds. Rather than leave her to share her belief with others, others come along to make claims which suggest she is stupid and pretty much has no clue, thus alienating her from a community of what could well be her peers. She may be struggling. She may need to find some like-minded people, which is usually why folks come to places like Aven (or other online communities).

Can I please now draw your attention to the following thread here at Aven:

http://www.asexuality.org/en/index.php?showtopic=38747

A person jumped into an Atheist thread with some fairly ridiculous remarks considering the nature of that thread. Everyone was rightly (even righteously) in an uproar. Atheist people neither want to nor need to be "prayed for" and everyone made that stance quite remarkable. Perhaps rather than suggesting they would "pray for you" by putting that in a post (all the responses to that were incredibly valid to my point of view, by the way), said poster could have just prayed for you if that is what she felt, according to her beliefs, was the correct (even righteous) thing to do. What was the point of saying she had to do it? Pretty egregious, wasn't it? Shocking, really. Fundamentalist even. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism "Fundamentalism refers to a belief in a strict adherence to a set of basic principles (often religious in nature), sometimes as a reaction to perceived doctrinal compromises with modern social and political life."

Folks say there is no such thing as Atheist Fundamentalism and frankly, you're mistaken. Look at what the fundamentalist Christian did by suggesting she would pray for you for just a moment with your logical mind (you love your logical mind, yes?). How is what you do any different to that? How is telling someone what they believe, or making assumptions on someone's beliefs without knowing what they are any different to what she did? How is your way the right way and any other way incorrect?

I believe in science. I will say it again. I love the big bang, I love the Hubble telescope, I love the idea of Dark Matter and I am actually a trained and qualified scientist. I am not an atheist, however, because I don't have any scientific proof there is no creative force that brought life to be. You don't either. The difference between us is that I'm not so up myself to think I could possibly understand all of that. I'm a tiny little speck of a creature on a tiny little speck of a planet in a tiny little speck of a galaxy. I believe, however, that science will one day reach the point where we can prove the existence of a creative force or power. Do what you like in the meantime with you life. Let me live my life. Let me find like-minded people who I can create community with. Doesn't seem like much to ask. The minute you begin to stomp around all ego-charged and superior with your uberintellectual woohoo is the minute I say you're honestly no better than any rabid Bible bashing fundie.

(Other people may have replied to this topic but I was on a roll). 8)

Sweetie, thank you so much for your posts. I really do appreciate it (I'm the Muslim one, not bligyn; she made this thread so we could discuss Islam more and I just now found it), but Sally, mindlife, TheMuffinMan, and to an extent Gatto refuse to live and let live, and have jumped on every single post I've made, regardless of if I started out talking to them or not, and I learned in the previous thread that there's no use talking with them. They're set that Islam and Muslims are awful, and won't be persuaded, no matter how well-researched the arguments are, otherwise.

So I'd love to talk with you, but that group just isn't worth debating with.

What are your opinions on zombies? ;P

[LarissaFae]

No dear, I'm not. I'm asking you what I believe in. Tell me again. You were telling me what I believe in and then you got all choked up when I made you uncomfortable about your position.

You believe in a deity called Allah. If that is incorrect, you better tell me how exactly you define "Muslim". Though now I'm sort of confounded as to why you told me to go to Google...

Jewish Arabs believe in Allah. Arab Christians believe in Allah, and call Jesus Allah. If you believe in the God of Abraham, you believe in Allah, because "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God." Interestingly, the "-ah" ending also makes the word feminine, as Arabic has no gender-neutral pronouns, and the masculine "hu," meaning roughly "the," placed in front of Allah comes the closest one can get in Arabic to achieving gender neutrality.

That's your language lesson for the day. Test on Friday. :P

[Henny]

No dear, I'm not. I'm asking you what I believe in. Tell me again. You were telling me what I believe in and then you got all choked up when I made you uncomfortable about your position.

You believe in a deity called Allah. If that is incorrect, you better tell me how exactly you define "Muslim". Though now I'm sort of confounded as to why you told me to go to Google...

Jewish Arabs believe in Allah. Arab Christians believe in Allah, and call Jesus Allah. If you believe in the God of Abraham, you believe in Allah, because "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God." Interestingly, the "-ah" ending also makes the word feminine, as Arabic has no gender-neutral pronouns, and the masculine "hu," meaning roughly "the," placed in front of Allah comes the closest one can get in Arabic to achieving gender neutrality.

That's your language lesson for the day. Test on Friday. :P

I would be more correct to say that they believe in an allah. When I speak of the Muslim god, I call it "Allah". When I speak of the

Christian god, I call it "God". When I speak of a god, I mean the generic concept of "god". I don't speak of an allah, as this is an English language forum.

[strangebird]

So I'd love to talk with you, but that group just isn't worth debating with.

What are your opinions on zombies? ;P

There's not enough logical consistency there to even constitute debate, but I'm glad I said something here anyhow. :lol:

Zombies are a dime a dozen. :lol:

[strangebird]

(I'm the Muslim one, not bligyn; she made this thread so we could discuss Islam more and I just now found it), but Sally, mindlife, TheMuffinMan, and to an extent Gatto refuse to live and let live, and have jumped on every single post I've made, regardless of if I started out talking to them or not, and I learned in the previous thread that there's no use talking with them. They're set that Islam and Muslims are awful, and won't be persuaded, no matter how well-researched the arguments are, otherwise.

So I'd love to talk with you, but that group just isn't worth debating with.

Just as an aside as I have sat and thought about this for a while. I'm relatively new here. Well, not new to Aven but new to attempting to post here at all. My understanding was that this was a community that was meant to welcome asexual people. If there are a handful of people who have trouble allowing people to say what they feel and make authentic connections with others that they might be able to access as support, shouldn't something be said or done about that? I don't understand why someone's religion (or lack of religion) should be an issue on an asexuality board or why a handful of people want so desperately to make people who have a faith feel inferior or unwelcome here? That's just wrong. :(

Maybe I'm old, but I have managed to figure out how to live with people who feel differently than I do on a lot of levels, most especially if they are in need of support or comraderie and are already part of a marginalised group. The asexual world doesn't really tearing up any further. We're a fairly tiny and marginalised faction of society as it is. 8)

[TheMuffinMan]

But Larissa the secular world wants us to bend over and show our arses to men, obviously even the asexual secular world can't grasp why that might not be appropriate. :lol:

Oh my yes. That's what the 'secular world' wants you to do. And there are totally laws about it, and women who don't do it are stoned and beaten.

Oh wait, no, that's fucking stupid.

[PiF]

Just as an aside as I have sat and thought about this for a while. I'm relatively new here. Well, not new to Aven but new to attempting to post here at all. My understanding was that this was a community that was meant to welcome asexual people. If there are a handful of people who have trouble allowing people to say what they feel and make authentic connections with others that they might be able to access as support, shouldn't something be said or done about that? I don't understand why someone's religion (or lack of religion) should be an issue on an asexuality board or why a handful of people want so desperately to make people who have a faith feel inferior or unwelcome here? That's just wrong. :(

Maybe I'm old, but I have managed to figure out how to live with people who feel differently than I do on a lot of levels, most especially if they are in need of support or comraderie and are already part of a marginalised group. The asexual world doesn't really tearing up any further. We're a fairly tiny and marginalised faction of society as it is. 8)

strange

we do welcome religious asexuals..although we have on occasion been intolerant of religious and antisex asexuals

what seems to draw more flack than anything when it comes to religion is when some with faith tell you that your way is wrong and thier religion is the only right way..like sending up a ..shoot me down sign into the sky

to be fair that happens on all forums except the specific religious based ones

but yes some do seem very intolerant of religion...sadly :redface:

but also those who are of a faith..some of those show the same intolerance

[TheMuffinMan]

Sweetie, thank you so much for your posts. I really do appreciate it (I'm the Muslim one, not bligyn; she made this thread so we could discuss Islam more and I just now found it), but Sally, mindlife, TheMuffinMan, and to an extent Gatto refuse to live and let live, and have jumped on every single post I've made, regardless of if I started out talking to them or not, and I learned in the previous thread that there's no use talking with them. They're set that Islam and Muslims are awful, and won't be persuaded, no matter how well-researched the arguments are, otherwise.

So I'd love to talk with you, but that group just isn't worth debating with.

What are your opinions on zombies? ;P

And now, I am insulted. I have repeatedly made my position clear-that fundamentalist and conservative Islam is incompatible with western civilization, and that Islam needs to modernize through the force of its liberals and frank criticism of its faults. I would ASSUME that a muslim visiting this board is most likely one of its liberals, and yet all I've seen from muslim members here is that they respond to every criticism of their religion as if it is a personal attack. I have never said that there can't be a liberal Islam, only that it is a tiny minority and usually viewed as heresy by mainstream versions of Islam (except in America, where because we attract the more liberal, educated and wealthy muslims, liberal Islam is more mainstream.) And for this view-not exactly radical, mind you, it is consistent with my experience and research-I am not worth talking to? You may be liberal in your interpretation of Islam, but I would recommend you spend less time ignoring the reality of the nature of the majority of Islam and defending your faith from percieved slights, and more time casting a critical eye on how Islam is too often practiced.

[strangebird]

what seems to draw more flack than anything when it comes to religion is when some with faith tell you that your way is wrong and thier religion is the only right way..like sending up a ..shoot me down sign into the sky

to be fair that happens on all forums except the specific religious based ones

Yeah that irritates the crap out of me, too. I didn't see anyone doing that in here just people not wanting other people to connect and feeling the need to make comments and remarks that had nothing to do with them. You know what's funny is people of faith call these things 'tests of faith' and they kind of are. People with rabid mindsets don't make others change their mind. Religious people do it, atheist people do it. I feel sad for humanity sometimes as I don't think we'll ever "get there" where we allow each other to live with any kind of freedom just because of human nature.

I don't care what people think about the world inside my own heart and mind, I just want to be left alone to live my life according to the choices I make there. They have been flawed in the past and probably will be flawed some in the future. I would never suggest I know the answers. I find the older I get the less I have any clue about most anything. I'm a tiny speck and relatively insignificant in the big picture :D. I know what I think and believe for me and I know I'm constantly evolving and changing what I think and feel. I know no church or religion or atheist alone is going to force me to change anything about who I am. Just making my way through the world and learning as I go. I guess I'm just not as smart as all of those who have it all figured out. ;)

[strangebird]

Sweetie, thank you so much for your posts. I really do appreciate it (I'm the Muslim one, not bligyn; she made this thread so we could discuss Islam more and I just now found it), but Sally, mindlife, TheMuffinMan, and to an extent Gatto refuse to live and let live, and have jumped on every single post I've made, regardless of if I started out talking to them or not, and I learned in the previous thread that there's no use talking with them. They're set that Islam and Muslims are awful, and won't be persuaded, no matter how well-researched the arguments are, otherwise.

So I'd love to talk with you, but that group just isn't worth debating with.

What are your opinions on zombies? ;P

And now, I am insulted. I have repeatedly made my position clear-that fundamentalist and conservative Islam is incompatible with western civilization, and that Islam needs to modernize through the force of its liberals and frank criticism of its faults.

Hi Muffin. I agree with that. Fundamentalist (western civ definition) Islam is more cultural-bias than it is based on the religion. Then you also have religious interpretations. One of the main reasons I don't "practice" Islam as I am "meant to" is because, just like all other "churches", there have been interpretations woven in that don't speak to what I believe in my heart to be true.

Church and religion are two different things to my view. Human beings take anything and run with it as a means to get control of large sections of the population. I think that is what "church" is meant to do on the broader scale. I think the idea is great on the one hand but the groupthink ruins the whole of it. This is why I don't "practice". I do believe in the basic premise of Islam and therefore am still Muslim (see shahada).

The issue with Islam is quite honestly it takes YEARS of studying and picking through what this side/that side says to really learn anything about it. It's almost like you have to live inside of it to understand it and most folks don't want to put that kind of effort in when they already have a view of something. And that's ok, really. I do believe that it comes off as ignorant to make grand proclamations denouncing things we don't really know much about though. :)

[bligyn]

First off I want to apologogize to both of you for offending and obviously making you upset, that was not the intention and alot of this can be blamed on my first post for being an arguement this topic as I should have stated before was for calm discussions about Islam, in a respectful manner, I just felt that there were many areas for Christianity talk but not any for Islam, I wanted to change that.

1) Turkey, I don't know every Muslim states policies but this one comes to mind. Also it should be noted that 6 Muslim countries have had a woman as their leader as compared to America's none. Also, Islam is going through the pendulum, it granted women rights LONG before Europe, but because of the Western culture invading everything it has taken a big step backward. That does not mean that it is inherently bad.

2)It shouldn't be based off of individuals because then every religion is rotten to the core and atheists have a right to scoff at it and denounce it everywhere they go, and I just can't believe that. I have seen religion save people, and I will always love it for that. But if we are basing things off of practionors, Christianity is the cruelest religion in the world as it has committed the most horrors on a grand scale. Genocide, slavery around the world, torture, pedophilia, women degredation, suppression, and just plain cruelty. But you are not a christian so let me see... Buddists were pedophiles, Judiasim well killed whole places men women and children, women degredation, stoning children, and just plain cruelty. Confususism (which I always considered a philosophy than a religion), suppression, wide spread death, and just those who are atheists and are thanking your lucky stars you are one right now, atheists have committed horrors as well. There will always be people who use religion (or no religion) as an excuse to do bad things that doesn't make it evil, and I know Muslims who are great people speak very broken English but seek solace in their religion and if someone can find happiness with it than yes it's not inherently evil, but inherently good, things change over time and a people will judge a religion differently each time, but it is what it teaches and shows, the book that it is all based on that proves it's not evil, but at this time is interpreted differently. As an atheist who expects no reward or punishment after this life, it is my duty to be respectful, moral, and to love. I love Islam/Christianity/Judiasim/Hinduism/Budahism because if you really study them they support morality, not always they all have some dark edges even black deeds, but organized religion is a boon to mankind which is why we have had it since we can remember.

Just about all of that is drivel. First you apologize, and at the end you say you love all the religions, and then in the middle you claim a lot of really silly stuff, most of it about 1,000 years old and except for the Crusades, NONE of it based on any of the religions you mention wanting to make the world into a one-religion stockade.

And then you blame the Western countries for Muslims treating women badly. I suppose the genital mutilation of young female children is due to the Western countries also?

If you thought we would simply accept your decree that Islam is a good religion without any questions about WHY and HOW it is good (which would have been asked by commenters had anyone posted such a statement about any OTHER religion), you thought wrongly.

And by the way, 41 people were killed yesterday in triple suicide attacks in Lahore, Pakistan, at the shrine of a Sufi saint. The Sufis are hated by the Shi'ites, who are hated by the Sunnis, who are hated by the...and the beat goes on.

I was gone for a few days because I was angry and I have promised myself never to flame. But She is right, you don't want to talk about Islam calmly and scholarly which is what this thread was for, you want to be angry, but I had to respond to this.My apology was heartfelt and I will apologize again, I am sorry if I offended you that was not my intention.

Slavery was not 1000 years ago and also just plain cruelty happens every day from people of all religions. This is not the place to bring up the Isreali-Palestinian debate, but Jews have committed crimes against people today. Yes I agree Islam needs to be more liberal, but the only thing I ever objected to was that the entire religion was inherently evil, it's not, it is inherently good.

First off, female mutilation was around before Islam. Second I can understand how you concluded that from my statement, but I meant that yes this is a backlash and it is bad...but Islam isn't inherently cruel to women. That was my point.

Also, I apologized for making such an argumentative statement to begin with, I honestly meant for this to be a discussion about the particulars of Islam not whether it is good or not. I am sorry if it came across differently, I was just trying to infer that this was a Muslim friendly thread and should be treated as such, not an arguement that it is good, even though yes I do think it is.

Finally, both sides must be noting how weak willed this whole thing sounds, but I refuse to insult, I refuse to deride, I refuse to deal with any of you while angry or to let anger flush what I type/say. I know this makes me spineless, but everyone has their quirks :)

Edit: I should say that I am leaving this thread behind me, not even going to look at it again as I almost left Aven over it, which is childish. So any replies will not be answered, sorry.

[daveb]

the only thing I ever objected to was that the entire religion was inherently evil, it's not, it is inherently good.

Finally, both sides must be noting how weak willed this whole thing sounds, but I refuse to insult, I refuse to deride, I refuse to deal with any of you while angry or to let anger flush what I type/say. I know this makes me spineless, but everyone has their quirks :)

Edit: I should say that I am leaving this thread behind me, not even going to look at it again as I almost left Aven over it, which is childish. So any replies will not be answered, sorry.

bligyn says they won't be looking at this thread, but I still want to address a few points and say something.

1. Religion is neither inherently evil nor inherently good.

2. Staying away from a thread or discussion that has gotten too heated is not spineless. Sometimes it takes more courage or something to back off.

I'm an atheist. The possibility of any kind of god/gods/goddesses/supernatural being/intelligent life force controlling all or creating all and then letting it run is beyond logic and beyond belief for me. I don't have any proof, any more than any believer (in any religion) has proof that there is a god (or what have you). I know I tend to feel the pull of these kinds of discussions. I hope I try to show some respect for other viewpoints than my own. I'm sure I fail at times. I get annoyed when someone says "I'll pray for you", especially in the sense of praying for you because you don't share their beliefs. I find that arrogant and insulting. Like, "oh, your poor stupid fool. I'll ask god to see what he can do for you." I also get annoyed when people use religion as a reason for trying to force certain laws (such as gay marriage bans), certain curriculums (such as creationism - whatever name they call it), or bigotry (such as the bigotry some Muslims I have known have shown towards Jews - the same kinds of things they rail against when directed towards Muslims) on those of us who don't share their beliefs.

It would be much better if people got to know each other, respect each other, and realize hatred, anger and violence aren't good ways to live, much less ways to solve problems. It would be much better if we learned to celebrate human variety. That's hard to do when violence is such a big part of the equation.

To close this, I wish I could express to bligyn (if this reaches you somehow), strangebird, larissfae and anyone else, we're all in this together. Best wishes and I hope you don't get put off by these "discussions". I know we can get pretty passionate here.

[strangebird]

Very well said daveb and I couldn't agree more with everything you've said above.

[LarissaFae]

Just as an aside as I have sat and thought about this for a while. I'm relatively new here. Well, not new to Aven but new to attempting to post here at all. My understanding was that this was a community that was meant to welcome asexual people. If there are a handful of people who have trouble allowing people to say what they feel and make authentic connections with others that they might be able to access as support, shouldn't something be said or done about that? I don't understand why someone's religion (or lack of religion) should be an issue on an asexuality board or why a handful of people want so desperately to make people who have a faith feel inferior or unwelcome here? That's just wrong. :(

Maybe I'm old, but I have managed to figure out how to live with people who feel differently than I do on a lot of levels, most especially if they are in need of support or comraderie and are already part of a marginalised group. The asexual world doesn't really tearing up any further. We're a fairly tiny and marginalised faction of society as it is. 8)

strange

we do welcome religious asexuals..although we have on occasion been intolerant of religious and antisex asexuals

what seems to draw more flack than anything when it comes to religion is when some with faith tell you that your way is wrong and thier religion is the only right way..like sending up a ..shoot me down sign into the sky

to be fair that happens on all forums except the specific religious based ones

but yes some do seem very intolerant of religion...sadly :redface:

but also those who are of a faith..some of those show the same intolerance

When have I ever said that anyone's faith is wrong? Or that Islam is the only right way? I've never said that, and if I've implied it, I never meant to and I'm sorry that I was misunderstood. I have, however, been told by people who don't know me or fully understand my religion or personal beliefs about it that I'm wrong, and oppressed, and hate Western values. I've been told, with barely any proof, that my religion hates everyone who isn't a part of it, that's it's evil by nature, and every shred of evidence that I give is ignored or dismissed.

So ... yeah. I don't recall ever telling anyone that they're wrong and I'm right, but I do recall that being told to me, a whole helluva lot of times.