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KAGU143

What is "asexual elitism" and why does AVEN discourage it?

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Viotora

I think my asexuality is very easy, only like females and don't want sex with anyone, just like romantic attraction to females, that's all.. but no elitism for me :D I support all types of asexuality.

but I've noticed that it fits me cause "lack of sexual attraction" and that's exactly how it is for me.

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SkyWorld

Unpinned this thread, mentioned here under "About the forum".

SkyWorld

Asexual Q&A Co-Mod

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Squirrel Combat

Huh, I would have thought asexual elitism would pertain to us thinking we're better than the sexuals because were "free" of that sexual need when they aren't.

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Goldman

im a bit repulsed by sex and stuff but I know that doesn't mean im better than other people its just a personal preference, a lot of wisdom in this initial thread post :)

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Elfynn

I'm new here - I'm confused & not sure if I belong here. I have been having therapy & battling with confusion over my own sexual activity/orientation/lack there of (despite engaging in heterosexual relationships... the majority of which I didn't even want to be in on the basis of liking the individual let alone sex)...

 

anyway. This post has felt like a bit of a revalation to me. I had been so worried that I am some sort of freak of nature, not straight, not gay, not bisexual, not asexual, just... nothing. Just my own horrible, twisted no man's land and reading this made me feel so much better. I think I do belong here after all 👍🏼

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LeChat
31 minutes ago, Elfynn said:

I'm new here - I'm confused & not sure if I belong here. I have been having therapy & battling with confusion over my own sexual activity/orientation/lack there of (despite engaging in heterosexual relationships... the majority of which I didn't even want to be in on the basis of liking the individual let alone sex)...

 

anyway. This post has felt like a bit of a revalation to me. I had been so worried that I am some sort of freak of nature, not straight, not gay, not bisexual, not asexual, just... nothing. Just my own horrible, twisted no man's land and reading this made me feel so much better. I think I do belong here after all 👍🏼

Hello, Elfynn. I'm glad to hear that you've found this website helpful towards understanding yourself. Welcome. :cake:

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ZoeR

Thank you for this.  It helped me to confirm some of the last doubts that have been in my own head that I have figured out myself and that my sexual identity is asexual even though I am still curious about sex, just don't have the need for or am attracted sexually to anyone.  Again, thank you.

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mccormicklj

Thank you for this post. I’ve not asexual but have been in a loving 17-year marriage with a man who is asexual. It’s taken me a long time to understand and I’m still learning. One of the things that had me confused was why he’d masturbate if he’s asexual. I’m understanding better now. Thanks again. 

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miacor5
On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2010 at 2:08 PM, KAGU143 said:

An asexual elitist is simply somebody who thinks that asexuality is defined by sexual behavior rather than by sexual attraction.

That was quick and painless, right? :D You can stop reading now, if you want to, because this is an old subject, which, for some reason, Just. Won't. Die.

In the 6 1/2 years I have been here at AVEN, I have lost count of how many times I have seen it.

The same old thing keeps keeps coming up over and over again:

You can't possibly be a "pure" asexual because *gasp* you do X, Y, or *double gasp* even Z!

It's worth noting that the people who make these statements are, without exception, NOT speaking from a position which represents AVEN. This is not to say that they aren't sincere in their beliefs, or perhaps even very well-intentioned in stating them, only to say that they don't fully understand what AVEN's definition of asexuality IS.

The definition of asexuality as it pertains to humans has nothing at all to do with sexual behavior. Full stop. That's it.

In theory, a person could even earn their living as a prostitute and still be a perfectly valid asexual.

Asexuality is defined as not experiencing sexual attraction to either (or any) gender. That's all. It has nothing at all to do with libido or with behavior.

Libido could be defined as a type of itch. Some people itch more than others, but the amount doesn't matter. What matters, when determining sexual orientation, is whether the person would prefer for somebody else to help them scratch it when/if it happens. If they would prefer help, and if they prefer it from someone of their own sex, we call them homosexual. If they get the itch, and prefer help from someone of the opposite sex to help them scratch it, we call them heterosexual. If they get the itch and would prefer no help from anybody in scratching it, we call them asexual. (To put it very bluntly, whether or not a person masturbates has no bearing on their sexual orientation.)

A person who has sex with someone to whom they are not sexually attracted does NOT have to change their orientation in order to do so.

In other words, a gay person who has straight sex under extenuating circumstances is still gay, and a straight person who has gay sex under extenuating circumstances is still straight.

An asexual who has sex under extenuating circumstances is still asexual.

An extenuating circumstance can be almost anything. Seriously! It doesn't have to be a death threat! It might be nothing more than the path of least resistance which will avoid an argument or, even worse, the loss of a relationship.

None of us can get inside another person's head and know, with absolute certainty, WHY they do what they do, so we have to take them at their word. That's why the policy at AVEN is to let each person decide, for themself whether or not they are asexual.

*climbs down from soap box*

Ya'll go ahead and chime in if you want to!

-GB

uh oh I think I am something else....asexual said no attraction to either sexes...I can b attracted but do not want to have sexwith the person....ugh...I'm so confused....ill keep reading

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TheAP
8 hours ago, miacor5 said:

uh oh I think I am something else....asexual said no attraction to either sexes...I can b attracted but do not want to have sexwith the person....ugh...I'm so confused....ill keep reading

Asexual means no sexual attraction to any genders. Asexuals can be romantically attracted to one or more genders. Sexual attraction is usually defined as the desire to have sex with another person.

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miacor5
On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 9:37 AM, TheAP said:

Asexual means no sexual attraction to any genders. Asexuals can be romantically attracted to one or more genders. Sexual attraction is usually defined as the desire to have sex with another person.

thankyou...that was simply put and I understand..i am asexual..i do not care to have sex at all...now to figure out what to do with   this next steps....like how do I meet someone who is asexual like me...I don't mean on a site which is great! but in person in my living day to day life...to have a partner who is asexual too...  any advice?

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Joe Guzman

Applause, cheers, and fireworks to this post! I checked out the link to the other site "the official asexual society" and found myself appalled. What's just as bad, and possibly worse, than the garbage they spew is the way they actively limit themselves while trying to limit others. Short-sighted tunnel vision has never done anyone any good. If I had come across that site way back in the day when I was first discovering asexuality, I probably would've been even more confused than I was . . . and that's saying something; however, if I'd come across this site, I don't know if I'd have come to understand myself better any sooner, but at least I would've had a far more positive view. Why isn't this post in the "required reading" section? It sure ought to be. 

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Rachelink

I though asexual elitism was something entirely different, OP. Thank you for this explaination 😅 

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CBC
On 3/18/2019 at 2:38 PM, Rachelink said:

I though asexual elitism was something entirely different, OP. Thank you for this explaination 😅 

What did you think it was?

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Guest
1 hour ago, CBC said:

What did you think it was?

I'd guess they meant the other facet of elitism that this thread's definition failed to adress: "Aces are better/smarter/more virtuous (etc.pp.) than those filthy sexuals with their icky base desires".

 

A.k.a., anti-sexuality.

 

I, myself, think the terms are a bit wishy-washy.

 

 

Adding to clarify in case it comes across the wrong way:

 

Anti-sexuality is heavily frowned on here on AVEN, too - and for very good reason.

Edited by Guest

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Iam9man
On 6/22/2010 at 7:08 PM, KAGU143 said:

An asexual elitist is simply somebody who thinks that asexuality is defined by sexual behavior rather than by sexual attraction.

That was quick and painless, right? :D You can stop reading now, if you want to, because this is an old subject, which, for some reason, Just. Won't. Die.

In the 6 1/2 years I have been here at AVEN, I have lost count of how many times I have seen it.

The same old thing keeps keeps coming up over and over again:

You can't possibly be a "pure" asexual because *gasp* you do X, Y, or *double gasp* even Z!

It's worth noting that the people who make these statements are, without exception, NOT speaking from a position which represents AVEN. This is not to say that they aren't sincere in their beliefs, or perhaps even very well-intentioned in stating them, only to say that they don't fully understand what AVEN's definition of asexuality IS.

The definition of asexuality as it pertains to humans has nothing at all to do with sexual behavior. Full stop. That's it.

In theory, a person could even earn their living as a prostitute and still be a perfectly valid asexual.

Asexuality is defined as not experiencing sexual attraction to either (or any) gender. That's all. It has nothing at all to do with libido or with behavior.

This is very well worded. Based on a few invalidating/trolling threads I’ve seen recently I think this should be posted more prominently!

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MichaelTannock

I've repinned this thread.

 

Michael Tannock,

Open Mic moderator and Questions about Asexuality Co-moderator.

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Nowhere Girl
On 3/20/2019 at 8:14 AM, Mysticus Insanus said:

nti-sexuality is heavily frowned on here on AVEN, too - and for very good reason.

I believe that a bit of antisexuality should be allowed. Saying that "all people who have sex are disgusting!!" is obviously going too far. But (some) aces really need a space to vent and write things like "sex is disgusting!!!", "I can't imagine how could anyone desire that". Perhaps, even, an "Official Antisexual Thread" could be a good idea.

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Iam9man
1 minute ago, Nowhere Girl said:

I believe that a bit of antisexuality should be allowed. Saying that "all people who have sex are disgusting!!" is obviously going too far. But (some) aces really need a space to vent and write things like "sex is disgusting!!!", "I can't imagine how could anyone desire that". Perhaps, even, an "Official Antisexual Thread" could be a good idea.

Anti-sexuality would be saying “sex is gross and therefore people who have sex are [insult]”.
 

Saying sex is gross on its own, if you find sex gross, is OK (as far as I understand).

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michaeld

I agree with both in fact. Most of us aces have had anti-sexual phases in the past, where we were so isolated and fed up with sexuality-in-your-face - and feeling compulsed to take part - that we felt like lashing out at everything and everyone associated with sex. We can't allow that on AVEN but we should be understanding why people may feel that way.

 

At the same time, a great point made a long time ago by Olivier (a sexual partner of an ace) is that sexual partners of aces are (almost by definition) even rarer than aces are. They need their space too. AVEN is for them just as much as it's for us aces. They shouldn't have to put up with insults and gross stereotypes about sexuals here any more than asexuals should.

 

*still a sex-repulsed asexual, but hopefully not anti-sexual any more*

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Janus DarkFox

Yeah though I can see how an “Official Antisexual Thread” go down worse than a lead balloon in my own hindsight though.

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gray-a girl
On 6/22/2010 at 2:08 PM, KAGU143 said:

An asexual elitist is simply somebody who thinks that asexuality is defined by sexual behavior rather than by sexual attraction.

That was quick and painless, right? :D You can stop reading now, if you want to, because this is an old subject, which, for some reason, Just. Won't. Die.

In the 6 1/2 years I have been here at AVEN, I have lost count of how many times I have seen it.

The same old thing keeps keeps coming up over and over again:

You can't possibly be a "pure" asexual because *gasp* you do X, Y, or *double gasp* even Z!

It's worth noting that the people who make these statements are, without exception, NOT speaking from a position which represents AVEN. This is not to say that they aren't sincere in their beliefs, or perhaps even very well-intentioned in stating them, only to say that they don't fully understand what AVEN's definition of asexuality IS.

The definition of asexuality as it pertains to humans has nothing at all to do with sexual behavior. Full stop. That's it.

In theory, a person could even earn their living as a prostitute and still be a perfectly valid asexual.

Asexuality is defined as not experiencing sexual attraction to either (or any) gender. That's all. It has nothing at all to do with libido or with behavior.

Libido could be defined as a type of itch. Some people itch more than others, but the amount doesn't matter. What matters, when determining sexual orientation, is whether the person would prefer for somebody else to help them scratch it when/if it happens. If they would prefer help, and if they prefer it from someone of their own sex, we call them homosexual. If they get the itch, and prefer help from someone of the opposite sex to help them scratch it, we call them heterosexual. If they get the itch and would prefer no help from anybody in scratching it, we call them asexual. (To put it very bluntly, whether or not a person masturbates has no bearing on their sexual orientation.)

A person who has sex with someone to whom they are not sexually attracted does NOT have to change their orientation in order to do so.

In other words, a gay person who has straight sex under extenuating circumstances is still gay, and a straight person who has gay sex under extenuating circumstances is still straight.

An asexual who has sex under extenuating circumstances is still asexual.

An extenuating circumstance can be almost anything. Seriously! It doesn't have to be a death threat! It might be nothing more than the path of least resistance which will avoid an argument or, even worse, the loss of a relationship.

None of us can get inside another person's head and know, with absolute certainty, WHY they do what they do, so we have to take them at their word. That's why the policy at AVEN is to let each person decide, for themself whether or not they are asexual.

*climbs down from soap box*

Ya'll go ahead and chime in if you want to!

-GB

I don't know if this is added elsewhere or not, but I also want to add in, that a person can be sex favorable and asexual too. That's how I experience asexuality. The main reason I enjoy partnered sex is not because I am attracted to the person. Rather, I am kinky, and kinks are the only thing that turn me on. It is very very very hard to do some kinks by yourself. I've tried. Since lack of control is a kink for me, I do enjoy when someone else is in control rather than when I masterbate by myself. (Like with a toy or something) Plus there are other kinks, like bondage, etc, that are really really difficult to do by oneself. I guess that counts as an extenuating circumstance? I don't know. But you know, if an alien that could be a good kinky dominate and control things and do bondage and etc were to exist...yet this alien didn't even look humonoid.... that would also work. Of course, not sure if I'd have an emotional/romantic attraction to said alien. And if they were slimy or gross looking than its a no go no matter what lol.

I've experienced a bit of asexual elitism here because I also identify as sex favorable. I think, some people feel threatened by it, and some people just don't understand it. But its kind of like, if a gay man does manual stimulation, so he can have sex with a woman, it doesn't make him any less gay. Or if a gay man gets turned on by bondage (all by itself) or pain play, and a woman is doing the dominating, then he can still do sexual things with said woman. It's the kink, not the woman, driving it. Heck, if a woman were to stimulate a gay man with her hands, he would still enjoy it. (Maybe not as much as if it were a guy I'm sure). But it's still possible. Things still work down there. I wish it wasn't so hard for people to understand. I think if I wasn't kinky at all, though, or if lack of control wasn't such a big turn on for me, I'd probably be indifferent rather than sex favorable. Actually I'm pretty sure of it.

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DeviousDex
On 6/22/2010 at 11:08 AM, KAGU143 said:

An asexual elitist is simply somebody who thinks that asexuality is defined by sexual behavior rather than by sexual attraction.

That was quick and painless, right? :D You can stop reading now, if you want to, because this is an old subject, which, for some reason, Just. Won't. Die.

In the 6 1/2 years I have been here at AVEN, I have lost count of how many times I have seen it.

The same old thing keeps keeps coming up over and over again:

You can't possibly be a "pure" asexual because *gasp* you do X, Y, or *double gasp* even Z!

It's worth noting that the people who make these statements are, without exception, NOT speaking from a position which represents AVEN. This is not to say that they aren't sincere in their beliefs, or perhaps even very well-intentioned in stating them, only to say that they don't fully understand what AVEN's definition of asexuality IS.

The definition of asexuality as it pertains to humans has nothing at all to do with sexual behavior. Full stop. That's it.

In theory, a person could even earn their living as a prostitute and still be a perfectly valid asexual.

Asexuality is defined as not experiencing sexual attraction to either (or any) gender. That's all. It has nothing at all to do with libido or with behavior.

Libido could be defined as a type of itch. Some people itch more than others, but the amount doesn't matter. What matters, when determining sexual orientation, is whether the person would prefer for somebody else to help them scratch it when/if it happens. If they would prefer help, and if they prefer it from someone of their own sex, we call them homosexual. If they get the itch, and prefer help from someone of the opposite sex to help them scratch it, we call them heterosexual. If they get the itch and would prefer no help from anybody in scratching it, we call them asexual. (To put it very bluntly, whether or not a person masturbates has no bearing on their sexual orientation.)

A person who has sex with someone to whom they are not sexually attracted does NOT have to change their orientation in order to do so.

In other words, a gay person who has straight sex under extenuating circumstances is still gay, and a straight person who has gay sex under extenuating circumstances is still straight.

An asexual who has sex under extenuating circumstances is still asexual.

An extenuating circumstance can be almost anything. Seriously! It doesn't have to be a death threat! It might be nothing more than the path of least resistance which will avoid an argument or, even worse, the loss of a relationship.

None of us can get inside another person's head and know, with absolute certainty, WHY they do what they do, so we have to take them at their word. That's why the policy at AVEN is to let each person decide, for themself whether or not they are asexual.

*climbs down from soap box*

Ya'll go ahead and chime in if you want to!

-GB

I mean under that logic a raped persons sexuality is defined by who raped them. If someone gay dates a different sex to cover up they gay they are suddenly bi. If someone kisses same sex because they are questioning and don't like it they are automatically gay. I mean you can argue if someone goes out of thier way to kiss the same sex than protests they are striaght that's one thing but acts alone doesn't define it. Context and personal feelings does. 

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MoviesNMuseums

YES

Just as a totally gay person might have an opposite sex spouse and sexual partner.  Just as a totally straight person in a single sex school, prison, or institute often takes a same sex partner.

Just as a teenager unsure of things might consent to see for sure if they really were gay, or straight, or bi, or pan...

Just as a frat boy or sorority girl might be "no homo" when sober, but fool around when drunk...

Just as someone might be one orientation, but make an exception for some exceptional person...

 

And still be whatever sexual orientation they consider themselves, so too, an ace person might sometimes engage in some sort of sex for any reason, but still be ace if they feel that way.

 

Orientation is about what you feel, and who you are, not about every single thing you've done or had done to you.

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CBC
On 1/9/2020 at 4:58 PM, MoviesNMuseums said:

Just as someone might be one orientation, but make an exception for some exceptional person...

If someone is an "exceptional" person and they're engaging with them sexually because they truly desire that person, and they're not just like... in the process of figuring themselves out, having sex with someone out of convenience (like the prison scenario)... doesn't that alter something about their orientation in some way, though? Which is kind of why I use the whole "technically bi" thing. I've no idea if I'd ever find a true exception (my previous relationship with my husband sure wasn't it), but if I've had any sort of feelings for any guys, it seems theoretically possible. And I'd find it a bit weird to say I was completely gay if someone existed who I truly desired and who wasn't a woman.

 

Not that I disagree with what you're saying as a whole.

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cAROlyn
On 1/17/2020 at 11:21 AM, CBC said:

If someone is an "exceptional" person and they're engaging with them sexually because they truly desire that person, and they're not just like... in the process of figuring themselves out, having sex with someone out of convenience (like the prison scenario)... doesn't that alter something about their orientation in some way, though? Which is kind of why I use the whole "technically bi" thing. I've no idea if I'd ever find a true exception (my previous relationship with my husband sure wasn't it), but if I've had any sort of feelings for any guys, it seems theoretically possible. And I'd find it a bit weird to say I was completely gay if someone existed who I truly desired and who wasn't a woman.

 

Not that I disagree with what you're saying as a whole.

I agree with both what you said and what @MoviesNMuseums said, because I think it could go either way depending on how the individual in question thinks about it. If someone is sexually attracted to the same sex but occasionally makes exceptions for the opposite sex, it's equally valid for them to consider themselves gay vs. "technically bi".

 

This discussion reminds me of the fixed-vs.-mutable debate about sexuality. If asked to take a side, I'd say 'both' because it is up to the individual to decide whether their sexuality is a fixed trait or something that can change throughout their life. It is, of course, possible to be wrong in one's initial decision; someone might think their sexuality is set for life and then end up switching it at a later date. The takeaway for both debates is that there is no single model of thinking that fits everyone's circumstances.

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CBC
On 1/18/2020 at 3:08 PM, cAROlyn said:

I agree with both what you said and what @MoviesNMuseums said, because I think it could go either way depending on how the individual in question thinks about it.

For sure, yeah. The only relationship I've felt completely comfortable in has been a same-sex one and I very highly doubt that if I was looking for people using a dating app (which I wouldn't ever do, hahaha... that's just not me) I would list myself as bisexual. In a normal social context like looking for dates with the hopes of a serious relationship, it would be rather misleading to guys. If just having any feelings at all is what we're going by and I'm attempting to describe my patterns of attraction in a technically accurate way, then I guess I have to go with bi though.

 

So I do get what you're saying. Context is important, i.e. under what circumstances you're discussing your (or someone else's) sexuality.

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