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Socializing Gender in Kids


arisa

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Okay, so I had this thought while reading this thread -- the OP recounts her experience of a child mistaking her for a boy apparently because she has short hair... So, kids are going to grow up, and get these ideas of gender from somewhere. I'm assuming that most of the time, they're implicitly handed down; the baby boys have their rooms painted blue they get to play with cars, while girls get the pink and dolls.

Or is it common for a parent to say, "boys to this, girls do that"? Even things as gender-neutral / interchangeable (I'd think) as certain modes of dress and hair styles -- are they explicitly pointed out to kids? Would you ever explain to a kid why it's okay for a girl to wear pants sometimes, but boys can't wear skirts?

How should parents address these issues? What should be addressed even if the child seems to identify with the gender that correlates with their biological sex? I think in another thread here there were musings about raising kids in a "gender-neutral" manner. How does one do that? Would a person only choose to do that in the case of having an intersexed child?

The socializing of gender in children obviously has a lot more implications than just expression; what to kids think about those who live outside of the norms? Last week, I saw a Cable News Network study on how kids thought about race; I think there may be some parallels here with the gender topic.

TL;DR, I'd like to know about your thoughts. In respects to gender, how were you raised? How have you raised, or plan to raise your children? Is it even a big deal?

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prettyeyes

I was raised fairly neutrally until puberty when all of a sudden there was this "god's plan for women" crap. I do remember things like me drawing a male character in a dress as a young kid and my mother flipping out because "dresses are for girls" and being encouraged to play with dolls. In hindsight I guess most of the gender-related influence came from my mother who wanted little girly girls. My dad just wanted my sis and I to be happy and quiet so he would get us our rubber snakes, plastic dinosaurs, and miniature cars that we loved. All in all though it was pretty neutral and I was a tomboy so I shirked off anything I thought was "girly stuff." The only way you could get me to do something girly was to trick me into it. :lol:

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paperscarecrow

I talked to my mom and she said she raised me to be my own person. she didn't try to raise me as a girl in the traditional sense. When I was a kid I spent a lot of time with my older brother and my male cousins. I think this turned kind of turned me into a tomboy. I did play with dolls ( I really loved playing with stuffed animals), but I spent more time playing with cars in the dirt.

In one of the psychology classes I took in college we discussed the the pros and cons to raising children a based on their sex or gender-neutral. We came to the conclusion that while raising a child to be gender-neutral could cause problems when the child interacts with other children. Ex: a boy is raised to think it is ok to play with dolls but other boys his age don't play with dolls. When the boy brings a doll to school the other boys will make fun of him for being different. I think if someone is going to raise a child to be gender-neutral they should think about what could go wrong when the child grows up and how to deal with any problems that might occur.

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Well, it's actually really common for young children to be very, very rigid about gender roles, probably because they're trying to figure out their own genders (kids can't reliably identify their own gender until 3.5 to 5 years old, and they're not aware that it's permanent until their 5 to 7 years old) and people making the categories more difficult to identify makes it harder for them to figure out how it all works. In particular, preschool-aged kids who haven't learned much about gender yet tend to have very shallow and superficial ideas about what makes a person a particular gender, including believing that having short hair makes someone a boy and having long hair makes someone a girl.

In general, what the studies have shown is that kids probably get their ideas partly based on watching the world around them and seeing how it is, and also partly on how adults react differently to children of different genders. (And they do--people react differently even to the youngest children depending on whether they think the child is male or female--the actual gender at that age doesn't matter, but people classify children's reactions to stimuli differently, place different judgements on the children's personalities, and offer to play in different ways and with different toys with children depending on what gender they are. This starts, again, very, very young, and people aren't necessarily aware that they're doing it.) So their development of gender is based much more on implicit messages from adults than explicit ones.

My Psychology of Women class actually went over the topic of the development of gender last week--would you be interested in my notes from that class, if I were to post them or PM them to you? I have the notes from birth all the way up through adolescence.

With respect to my own gender, I was actually fairly gender-atypical as a kid. Not that I was necessarily a stereotypical tomboy, because I wasn't--I hated sports then and I still do--but because I didn't really pay attention to the gender schemas or gender segregation (I hung out with mostly boys all through elementary school) or care at all for girly things. I suspect part of this is attributable to my autism--I didn't pick up on what the culture was telling me about gender because I also wasn't picking up on a lot of other things the culture was telling me about how to relate to people, so by and large I went merrily on my way without paying much attention. I might add that there is evidence suggesting that the kids who are percieved as the most socially adept and who are the most popular are also the ones who are the most gender segregated, and this was definitely bourne out in my case, particularly in elementary and middle school. (I think this is probably true partly because bucking the norm tends to make you unpopular and socially isolated, and also partly because the really socially adept kids are probably picking up on the gender messages broadcast by the culture a lot more than the ones who are a bit thicker about social situations, and so know how they "should" be acting more.) My parents pretty much ignored this and focused more on my social issues than my gender presentation at that age.

We actually discussed the issue of an intersexed child, and my "coparent" and I said we would not do any surgery to determine genitalia, but would raise the child as a girl because girls have more leeway for cross-gender behavior than boys do by a long shot and then listen to what the child wants to do once they've consistently developed a gender identity by ten or so. I think that because gender is such a salient characteristic--people want to know other people's gender right away, notice it quickly, and get upset if they are prevented from knowing--I would not choose to try to raise any child as agender, but would rather go with the one assigned at birth and instead encourage the child to perform (or not perform) gender in any way they want to. If the child wants to cross gendered lines, that's fine and should be encouraged, but I think that trying to raise a child as agendered is probably more stress than it's worth for everyone involved. Wait until the kid is old enough and knows enough about gender to articulate what they want, and then go with that; until then, go with whatever gender is assigned at birth.

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Thanks for your long and thoughtful reply, Sciatrix! I'm assuming that in the first few paragraphs you typed, "gender" is analogous to "sex"? I'd be interested in when children are first able to make the distinction on their own. While I feel like I wasn't clear on the difference between the two until I was a teenager, I've heard the stories of those who were raised as one gender, but knew that theirs didn't match the one they were being treated as at very young ages. But then again, we know that there are many adults who have never heard of or thought of such a distinction.

In any case, I'd be very interested in your notes! Post them or PM them, it doesn't matter. Thanks in advance!

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Actually, gender is not analogous to sex--sex is the physical aspect, while gender is mental. So a trans woman would have a male sex and a female gender, and might want to correct that by bringing her sex in line with her gender.

The research on when kids can differentiate between gender suggest that they might not be able to articulate it very early, but that babies as young as six months can differentiate between genders in photographs and that those as young as four months can differentiate based on voices. I'm not sure that that's the same as those babies being able to fully understand the complexities of gender, though, and understand people who cross gender lines or break stereotypes. I think that typically comes a lot later, maybe even in late adolescence or early adulthood.

Since my notes are fairly long and in outline form, I published them as Google documents. Here is chapter three, which goes into some discussion of a few types of intersex conditions, the development of sex, and then into the development of gender in children from birth to adolescence. Here is chapter four, which goes into some discussion of menstruation and physical puberty before it discusses the development of gender through adolescence.

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Of course, I know that gender isn't analogous to sex; my question was if, in the minds of the children we're talking about, gender is the same as sex. When considering things such as voices; sure a man usually has a deeper voice (as there are physiological reasons for that), though he might identify as a different gender. In a study like that, wouldn't we be saying the children are distinguishing sex, not gender? Unless, perhaps, transgendered people were included in the study.

Thanks for the notes! Though I'm interested in gender studies, I'll admit that I know little about the subject. It's something I definitely want to know more about and read more on.

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Darkfire Prophet

I was raised in a house with a not particularly girly girl mom, and a car obsessed father and little brother. I never did anything sporty till high school (Though I started playing football(american) because I was told I couldn't, I tend to be contrary like that), and that was more for goofs. I joined the military after highschool, though that was mainly because I was by no means ready for college, nor could my family afford it, and I was a computer programmer, so alot of the stereotypical ubermacho crap was toned down (though still present). All along I kept my occasional forays into crossdressing secret (until a few years ago when I told my wife about it), and not knowing what really constituted sexuallity v. asexuality, I didn't figure that out till recently, and by figure out, I mean have explained to me. My upbringing was in a male dominated environment, but my parents were actually fairly tolerant, if remarkably uninformed. And the issues I have with my parents have nothing to do with acceptance, more smothering.

Though I've got to say, at the colleges I've seen, beeing outside the gender and sexuality norms actually seems to make you the person to know in college. But college is a weird place. So you may find that kids raised without gender barriers will have trouble in Highschool, only find them bloom into butterflies there. But I warn you your milage may vary.

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Of course, I know that gender isn't analogous to sex; my question was if, in the minds of the children we're talking about, gender is the same as sex. When considering things such as voices; sure a man usually has a deeper voice (as there are physiological reasons for that), though he might identify as a different gender. In a study like that, wouldn't we be saying the children are distinguishing sex, not gender? Unless, perhaps, transgendered people were included in the study.

Thanks for the notes! Though I'm interested in gender studies, I'll admit that I know little about the subject. It's something I definitely want to know more about and read more on.

Oh, okay, I see what you're saying here. My misunderstanding! At this age, unless maybe they happen to be raised with a transgendered parent or something, I think kids don't understand that there's a difference between sex and gender. Like I said, they don't realize you can't change your sex (barring surgery) until they're five to seven years old--we're not talking "they know you can transition," here, but thinking they can grow up to be another gender or thinking people can change their gender by, say, cutting their hair. So I don't think they really connect to the concept of being transgendered exactly for a while yet, although I could be wrong on that.

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I'm curious about raising a child in a gender-neutral environment. I don't know if I'll ever raise a child, but I've thought that if I did I would give the child a gender-neutral name for starters. I don't know what I would do about pronouns. I would probably assign a pronoun based on sex and change the pronoun if the child wanted me to. But I wouldn't paint the bedroom walls blue or pink. Maybe white or green! Same with clothes. Nothing which screams male or female. When the child is old enough I would allow it to start selecting it's own clothes (which could happen as early as the age of two), and I wouldn't make any judgements.

Sorry, that probably doesn't help you figure out how we socialize children with gender.

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Click here for cake.

I wasn't raised to be particularly masculine. My father had a problem with me being "weak," but I remember having some traits growing up that alienated me from most boys in elementary school. I do not intend on ever having kids, and it is very likely to never happen, but hypothetically, I would raise a child in a gender-neutral environment. I'd prefer to have a female child, in such a case.

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@Sciatrix

No problem, I figured it was a misunderstanding. Thanks again for the information!

@Mrgnrykn

Thanks for the link!

And thanks to everyone for your stories and information, so far!

I just noticed that I didn't talk about my own upbringing... In a lot of ways, I was raised in a conservative household. I would get the Barbie dolls while my brothers got the Lego sets. It always worked out that so I would promptly tear the heads off the Barbies, steal my brother's blocks, and assemble them for him. While those kinds of things weren't so bad, at some point in time I started protesting wearing dresses to school and church. There was some point around the time I was 11 or 12 where I fought with my grandmother and after that I became a lot more sensitive to things she did: dragging me into the kitchen so I can "learn how to cook"; wanting me to be less aggressive because otherwise, how would I find a husband? I guess I got really frustrated because I had two younger brothers that got to wear more comfortable clothes, got the easier chores, and always got the better toys.

Meanwhile, I noticed she did a somewhat similar thing with my bothers. One of them was particularly moody, and she would always pick on my brother for being "weak". Even now, she constantly makes comments about "sorry men..." :/

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My Dad and Mom raised me and my sister's fairly neutrally, though or aunts and uncles took YEARS to realize that I didn't like barbies, please get me books on Geography and random facts, or legos, or hotwheels, or maybe art supplies.

I'll admit, I'm not athletic. I'm an academic personality, but I delight in keeping my hair short and my clothes gender-blurring and... Pfff. If I keep this up I'll ramble.

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I was raised pretty traditionally, and I didn't have a problem with it for a number of years. I preferred playing with barbies and stuffed animals, even though we had legos, and I didn't start wearing jeans until I was nine. I remember when I was 10 my friend who hated barbies came over, and she simultaneously shocked and awed me by having the two of us mutilate my barbies in interesting ways. ^_^

I actually started making sure I acted and dressed less girly in middle school largely because TV shows told me that girls who dressed girly were stupid, and I knew I was one of the smartest people in my class (I went to a really small middle school) so in order to reflect that I started wearing more neutral clothes, something I have continued up to this day because it's really comfortable and it's easier. I am definitely not as feminine as I was in elementary school.

I actually really hate it now when people explain or excuse their actions with "I'm a guy" or "I'm a girl". Yes, society has provided templates for what guys or girls "should" be, but that does not mean that is how *you* should be.

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I actually really hate it now when people explain or excuse their actions with "I'm a guy" or "I'm a girl". Yes, society has provided templates for what guys or girls "should" be, but that does not mean that is how *you* should be.

Oh, I hate this. It's such a silly cop-out.

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