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Should a mosque be built close to ground zero?


PiF

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There is no such pie chart on the FBI website.

The website that speaks of the "All Terrorists are Muslims except for the 94% who aren't" is below. The website is a real doozy. Apparently it was not Muslims who carried out the 9-11 attacks; nope, that's just a pro-Western conspiracy theory, even though all of the guys who took over the planes were Muslims and most were from Saudi Arabia.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?261509-All-Terrorists-are-Muslims%85Except-the-94-that-Aren%92t

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The pie chart is not on fbi.gov, but it would seem that someone has gone through this part of this document

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terrorism2002_2005.htm#page_63

and sorted those incidents into their own categories. This would also allow the calculation of the chart by casualties (it comes out at about 94% 9/11, 5% Oklahoma City, 1% everything else).

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The pie chart is not on fbi.gov, but it would seem that someone has gone through this part of this document

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terrorism2002_2005.htm#page_63

and sorted those incidents into their own categories. This would also allow the calculation of the chart by casualties (it comes out at about 94% 9/11, 5% Oklahoma City, 1% everything else).

And as I suspected, a lot of these "terrorist" attacks were blamed on Animal Liberation Front and Earth Liberation Front; I assume this falls under the "left wing" umbrella. And again, this is mainly vandalism and releasing chickens. Calling that "terrorism", well, there's a big difference between property destruction in which no one is injured and, say, 9/11.

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From the Qur'an:

9.64. Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,-

9.65. To dwell therein for ever: no protector will they find, nor helper.

You're ignoring all the verses that talk about God's compassion, and mercy ,and love. God's given 99 (give or take) names, or attributes, in the Qur'an, not including the names He keeps private, and ONLY ONE OF THEM could be considered to be in any way negative. That's ONE descriptor out of roughly 99.

Are you religious? I've noticed that atheists/agnostics need different arguments presented to them than religious people do, and I don't want to present an argument that you're not going to be receptive to.

Here's what you said: "I've yet to find a single reference that says that it's a-ok to kill people without a just cause and to forcibly convert people."

So I found one.

No, you found a reference to people's treatment in the afterlife, not permission to kill without just cause or to forcibly convert people. Big difference.

When a holy book tells it's believers that a group of people (unbelievers, that is those who aren't Muslims) is cursed by Allah, what do you think that leads to? Have you read the story (perhaps not in the Qur'an but certainly in history books) of how the first Muslims gained "converts"? They said either convert or die.

So the Torah says that the Jews are the Chosen People of God; He loves them more than He loves anyone else. Does that mean that everyone who isn't Jewish is doomed to Hell?

The VAST MAJORITY of conversions to Islam were peaceful conversions; all of Southeast Asia comes to mind. I'm not going to deny that there were forced conversions, but the Muslims who did that were wrong, and not following the teachings of Islam, anymore than the Crusaders were following the teachings of Christ.

Which group was told to convert or die? Because after the Muslims took down the remainder of the Byzantine Empire, the peasantry converted with little to no force --- they saw the Muslims as liberators, and converted willingly.

All religions tend to be a bit pushy, shall we say. All of them. Your religion is not any different, and in the last 50 years its become pretty violent in its attitude toward those who don't believe exactly as Muslims do. When someone across the world from any Muslim country is threatened with death because they draw a cartoon, that's not terribly peaceful.

How many individual Muslims have threatened to kill someone for drawing a cartoon? Do you know how many Muslims, when that happen, have to go to work and reassure their co-workers that no, not all Muslims feel that way? How many cringe when they hear of yet another negative incident, and get pissed when something like Saudi Arabia handing the Taliban it's ass goes largely unreported? You're right, it's not peaceful and it's not right and what's more, it is NOT the way that Muslims are supposed to voice their opinions --- we're supposed to use beautiful language and persuade people to our points of view, not make death threats.

And no, I won't be receptive to any arguments. I don't need the whole Qur'ran printed out. I look at what people do, not what their book says, or what they say they believe. Actions speak quite loudly.

Apparently you're intent on judging the actions and intentions of over one billion people --- one sixth of the world's population --- by the actions and intentions of less than one millionth of a percent. I'm not going to sit here and say that "Christians" who bomb abortion clinics, or who claim that AIDS and the wars we're in are because we let gays into America, are representative of true Christianity. Apparently you think that's oaky to do with Islam. If you're not willing to consider other views, then I believe our discussion is done.

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Larissa, when I read some of the verses you have posted, I seem to see something that you don't:

17:33:

"And do not kill anyone whose killing Allâh has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed wrongfully (Mazluman intentionally with hostility and oppression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority {(to demand Qisâs, Law of Equality in punishment— or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood - money)}. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e he should not kill except the killer). Verily, he is helped (by the Islâmic law)."

4:93:

"And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein, and the Wrath and the Curse of Allâh are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him."

(my bold)

Is it just my reading, or is only the murder of Muslims condemned? If not to condone the killing of non-Muslims, why are those qualifications there? To me, these are troubling verses, and I find it odd that you could quote them in support of your argument when they seem to undermine it.

The murder of any human being, in an unjust manner, is as if you'd murdered the entire human race. The Qur'an makes no distinction in that regard. When the Qur'an talks about "believers," it's also speaking about Jews and Christians, and anyone of a monotheistic faith, but taking life unjustly is taking life unjustly, no matter the religion of the person.

When everyone is Muslim, the world will truly be a better place in the perspective dictated by Islam.

And your perspective and spirituality is not and cannot be inner-directed-- these are dictated to you from the outside. You can never be free from the things your scriptures command, nor can you be free from the people who do much violence in the name of Islam and for the service of the faithful.

The world would be a better place is everyone was Christian, or if everyone was Buddhist, or if everyone was atheist ... When everyone believes the same thing, things tend to get easier.

I really, really disagree that reduced diversity in the world is desirable, or would make things easier. Wanting everyone to "believe the same things" is utterly unrealistic, in any case. So given that there is diversity in the world, and always will be, the question is how to respond to it - insularity and intolerance - or engagement and mutual acceptance.

I was making a comment on "When everyone is Muslim, the world will truly be a better place in the perspective dictated by Islam.", not saying that I actually think that if we all thought the same, the world would be a better place; I meant to imply that EVERY religion tends to think that its way is best, and everyone should follow it --- Islam isn't alone in that, as was implied. Islam actually teaches that God deliberately put diversity in the world, in order for us to learn how to get along with one another, so thinking that it would be best for everyone to be Muslim is kind of really silly.

Trying to enforce normativity, sexual, religious, political, or whatever only makes things easier for the already normative. For the non-normative it can make life a living hell (or unnaturally short). That's a price I find too high, just so people from the normative culture can rest easy in a lazy bigotry.

(And just to be clear, that's not directed at you, but for the non-bigoted surely life does NOT get harder when other people think differently, it just gets more interesting).

And I totally agree with you. I'm sorry for not making myself clear before. :)

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The world would be a better place is everyone was Christian, or if everyone was Buddhist, or if everyone was atheist ... When everyone believes the same thing, things tend to get easier.

If everyone believed & thought the same, it would be hell, or the closest thing on earth to hell that there is. Ask any queer.

And this is an argument against the Establishment Clause and western liberal values of tolerance.

Believe it or not, there have been people who have argued for the wall of separation not on secular, but on religious grounds. The first of them was Roger Williams, not a democratic man at all.

Again, I wasn't clear that my response wasn't my personal opinion, but pointing out that every group has teh tendency to think that it'd be better if everyone followed them. My apologies for not being clearer.

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I'll certainly argue for secular governments on religious grounds. Religiously-oriented governments of ANY kind are dangerous to all other religions.

As we've seen all throughout history, with lots of religions. I'm sooo not down with theocracy. :/

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  • 4 weeks later...
Kal'enedral

McVeigh, the KKK (who aren't operative anymore)

Technically, they are still operative, they just aren't allowed to lynch people anymore. I used to live in Illinois, and there was this town called Schaumburg (I beleive it was Schaumburg) that had a large KKK meeting a couple of years before we moved to the state. It freaked everyone out, but no one could legally forbid them from meeting.

-

I saw the NBC news report about the mosque. One of the people in charge of the mosque even talked about how the terrorists were extremists and most Muslims are moderates. I see this mosque as 1) a religious right and 2) a good thing to use to show people that Muslims are not Evil. It seems New York especially needs this.

Also, I noticed that the protester NBC got was a Tea Partier. It just makes me doubt the "this mosque is wrong" argument more.

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I think Ground Zero needs to become a monument to what was once there.

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I feel the person/s who wanted the mosque close too..and lets not forget they are not asking the mosque to be on the site..saw this as a unique chance to show that americans and muslims are not at war and that instead are standing shoulder to shoulder against all extremists

that said ..I feel what the opposition is saying is..all muslims are bombers and if we want extremists we have enough of our own thank you

although unfortuneatly ground zero is likely to remain a hate place to a past event rather than a peacefull and strong message to all those who oppose equal rights and freedoms

I would say to those anti mosque as 9/11 was a horific past event posters

how should the japanese feel after having two nuclear bombs dropped on them...then having american military bases in thier country?

for many..the two nuclear bombs killed more and changed the whole way of life for millions..surely they have a right also to say...not in my back yard?

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The nuclear bombs were dropped on Japan in the context of war.

Muslims say they are not at war with the West or with New York City, or with the Twin Towers.

Those people lost their lives as a result of a crime, a calculated mass murder whose perpetrators died while committing the act.

Please note that the pilot of the Enola Gay lived for a long time after he dropped his payloads.

There were many and probably are, many Japanese people who still hold quite an animus against the United States in spite of the post-war world.

And they have every right to hate us.

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And on a similar note, do you really think we've made any friends in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Conquest and occupation has been our goal all along in those countries, stop kidding yourself that it was about terrorism.

What do the Iraqis think of those 17 permanent facilities we built-- our castles-- on their land?

My assertion is that they despise them and us.

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then victory on those two posts

the impression I have recieved is that for americans is...we don't care if it's your country we are gonna put something there no matter what we have done and tough if you don't like it

but..in our country..we are the ones who decide

if that's truly what you meant? it certianly explains a lot

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When I meet a moslem like the sort you describe, I will consider your views. All those that I have met are people, not demons.

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I mean that when the Cold War was over, an entire generation of conservatives lost their bearings.

What?

No more Soviet Union?

And China was selling goods to us?

What's that about?

So they decided that they would create a new uber enemy.

Not Islam, they insisted. But certainly the nations of the Middle East and Hindu Kush.

Neocon dream time is coming to a quick, ignominious end. And good riddance.

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Gentle reminder to those who say "Americans": As of 2008, America had a population of approximately 310,000,000. We're probably the most ethnically and politically diverse country in the world. You can't reasonably state that "Americans think..." or "Americans say..." My political views are entirely different from those of my neighbor next door, we vote for different people to represent us, and neither of us likes being told what we think or say by someone who lives halfway around the world. At the moment, President Obama basically represents my political views; the person who was President for 8 years before him certainly didn't, and yet he was my President also. Stop stereotyping us.

Fairly balanced article about mosque (which apparently will be built): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html?_r=1

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#%^Sarah@@!))(!@!Palin@$%*&&! :angry:

I thought there couldn't be anyone worse than Dick Cheney but I was horribly wrong.

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Gentle reminder to those who say "Americans": As of 2008, America had a population of approximately 310,000,000. We're probably the most ethnically and politically diverse country in the world. You can't reasonably state that "Americans think..." or "Americans say..." My political views are entirely different from those of my neighbor next door, we vote for different people to represent us, and neither of us likes being told what we think or say by someone who lives halfway around the world. At the moment, President Obama basically represents my political views; the person who was President for 8 years before him certainly didn't, and yet he was my President also. Stop stereotyping us.

Fairly balanced article about mosque (which apparently will be built): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html?_r=1

point made sally

anyway..that big splodge of land the other side of the atlantic full of immigrants say....

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Gentle reminder to those who say "Americans": As of 2008, America had a population of approximately 310,000,000. We're probably the most ethnically and politically diverse country in the world. You can't reasonably state that "Americans think..." or "Americans say..." My political views are entirely different from those of my neighbor next door, we vote for different people to represent us, and neither of us likes being told what we think or say by someone who lives halfway around the world. At the moment, President Obama basically represents my political views; the person who was President for 8 years before him certainly didn't, and yet he was my President also. Stop stereotyping us.

Fairly balanced article about mosque (which apparently will be built): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html?_r=1

point made sally

anyway..that big splodge of land the other side of the atlantic full of immigrants say....

:D You could abbreviate it: BSOL or maybe just BS

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:D You could abbreviate it: BSOL or maybe just BS

somehow Sally..me and bs seem to go together

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Article:

“We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61.

The mosque in Manhattan will hopefully be a much better strategy for pushing extremism back than certain measures taken in Syria, 1982.

I hope that such repression never comes to exist in America.

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GermanDragon

I think it's someone inconsiderate and rude to attempt to build a mosque there. That said, there's nothing illegal about it. So it's unfair to tell them they can't do it.

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:D You could abbreviate it: BSOL or maybe just BS

somehow Sally..me and bs seem to go together

You do make a good pair, pif! ^_^

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Personally I think it should be built. I think it would be prejudiced to ban muslims from worshipping nearby because of a few crazies. I mean, some people say it's a disrespectful "slap in the face" or something. I don't really think so. The people saying that never considered how American settlers stamped out Native American culture and built churches on their old lands. Besides, if the mosque is banned, then it'd be a notioned that the US stereotyped every muslim as a terrorist or a bad person... I don't agree with everything Islam teaches, but I don't agree with everything anything teaches and I think that if they want to build a mosque, go ahead. I swear some people hear the word mosque and think it's subtitled "Taliban recruiting center". :wacko:

...So tell me, what are your thoughts?

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Hey don't worry

you won't be the first or the last to do it..we all have at some time..still good to see people are paying an interest

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corduroyjackalope

Wouldn't it be built two blocks away? It's not like they're building it right on the site. Manhatan (I know that is spelled wrong) is crowded, and if they found a space to build a religiouse house (which may further understanding) I say have at it. I think most of this comes from the people who don't want it built anyway, and who would be complaining if it were a mile away ("They shouldn't build a mosque just a mile from ground zero. It's a slap in the face!")

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Wouldn't it be built two blocks away? It's not like they're building it right on the site. Manhatan (I know that is spelled wrong) is crowded, and if they found a space to build a religiouse house (which may further understanding) I say have at it. I think most of this comes from the people who don't want it built anyway, and who would be complaining if it were a mile away ("They shouldn't build a mosque just a mile from ground zero. It's a slap in the face!")

Two Manhattan blocks away. Let me Google this: 0.4 miles away. Closer than I'd thought, but regardless, the building was already owned by the organisation; all they're seeking is permission to build more, not start building.

It occurred to me last night that a lot of people are up in arms over the name "Cordoba House," claiming that it symbolises a Muslim victory over the US, and impending Islamification of America, blah blah blah, I take a nap at that point ... But they forget that once the Muslims took over Spain, they granted religious freedom to everyone, Muslim, Christian, Jew, and probably any other faith in the city. Muslim Spain was far more tolerant of religious diversity than the Christians who came after them ... you know, the ones who started the Spanish Inquisition?

"Cordoba House" isn't celebrating a "Muslim victory," it's hearkening back to a time of great religious diversity and tolerance.

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