Should a mosque be built close to ground zero?

[Gatto]

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[LarissaFae]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

My, what intelligent conversation you've brought to the table. Your ideas are thought-provoking and useful, indeed.

[Sally]

Yes, we would lose oil.

But civilization and commerce don't depend on oil. We had them before we had oil. That's something we have refused to remember.

We didn't have the civilization and commerce we have now which DOES depend upon oil. Planes and all sorts of land vehicles depend upon oil; that's how merchandise moves around the world. Just about everything you eat and wear and drive and ride in and watch depend upon oil. We're not going back to the civilization we had 100 years ago.

That's why unfortunately the US and other Western countries won't get out of Middle Eastern countries.

[LarissaFae]

Yes, we would lose oil.

But civilization and commerce don't depend on oil. We had them before we had oil. That's something we have refused to remember.

We're not going back to the civilization we had 100 years ago.

What do you MEAN, steampunk's not going to become a reality? STEAMPUNK FOR LIFE! :D I have an AMAZING steampunk-y outfit; I got the shirt at Forever21, of all places.

Anyway, I'm all for creating a steampunk world.

Oh, and you have a very good point (though not quite as good as Gatto's).

[Sally]

Yes, we would lose oil.

But civilization and commerce don't depend on oil. We had them before we had oil. That's something we have refused to remember.

We're not going back to the civilization we had 100 years ago.

What do you MEAN, steampunk's not going to become a reality? STEAMPUNK FOR LIFE! :D I have an AMAZING steampunk-y outfit; I got the shirt at Forever21, of all places.

Anyway, I'm all for creating a steampunk world.

Oh, and you have a very good point (though not quite as good as Gatto's).

My points are NEVER as good as Gatto's. :lol:

[Inevitable]

Yes, we would lose oil.

But civilization and commerce don't depend on oil. We had them before we had oil. That's something we have refused to remember.

We're not going back to the civilization we had 100 years ago.

What do you MEAN, steampunk's not going to become a reality? STEAMPUNK FOR LIFE! :D I have an AMAZING steampunk-y outfit; I got the shirt at Forever21, of all places.

Anyway, I'm all for creating a steampunk world.

Oh, and you have a very good point (though not quite as good as Gatto's).

Steampunk is still oil, more or less.

The way we use oil to generate electricity is through steam. It might not be as visible as in the Victorian Age but it's still steam.

[LarissaFae]

Yes, we would lose oil.

But civilization and commerce don't depend on oil. We had them before we had oil. That's something we have refused to remember.

We're not going back to the civilization we had 100 years ago.

What do you MEAN, steampunk's not going to become a reality? STEAMPUNK FOR LIFE! :D I have an AMAZING steampunk-y outfit; I got the shirt at Forever21, of all places.

Anyway, I'm all for creating a steampunk world.

Oh, and you have a very good point (though not quite as good as Gatto's).

Steampunk is still oil, more or less.

The way we use oil to generate electricity is through steam. It might not be as visible as in the Victorian Age but it's still steam.

Ah, but is it efficient enough to not need foreign oil?

You can't crush my steampunk dreams. You can't! :P

[outofeden]

Personally I don't really care. But I think that that mosque is going to get vandalized if it gets built. Because people like to have tangible enemies.

[Odeen]

I haven't taken the time that I probably should have in reading the entire thread before pointing these out, but I've seen a couple of recurring misconceptions about the "Ground Zero Mosque" popping up in this thread.

1. It's not a mosque. They want to build an Islamic cultural center which contains a prayer room as well as a swimming pool, a theater, art exhibitions, and other facilities.

2. It's not that close to Ground Zero. It's like 2 blocks away. You can't even see Ground Zero from the cultural center, or vice versa.

As far as I've heard, that part of Manhattan is actually in desperate NEED of a community center such as the one these people want to build, even if it is affiliated with a religion to which most Americans don't belong. Why not build it there, where there's space and a demand for its presence and a group with the money to build it?

I personally don't care whether they build the cultural center or not, though I admit I'd be happier if people stopped clogging my street corners with religiously-affiliated organizations of any kind. The point is that MY HAPPINESS does not preclude their right to practice their religions, as their happiness doesn't preclude my right to think they're wasting their time and money.

[LarissaFae]

I haven't taken the time that I probably should have in reading the entire thread before pointing these out, but I've seen a couple of recurring misconceptions about the "Ground Zero Mosque" popping up in this thread.

1. It's not a mosque. They want to build an Islamic cultural center which contains a prayer room as well as a swimming pool, a theater, art exhibitions, and other facilities.

2. It's not that close to Ground Zero. It's like 2 blocks away. You can't even see Ground Zero from the cultural center, or vice versa.

As far as I've heard, that part of Manhattan is actually in desperate NEED of a community center such as the one these people want to build, even if it is affiliated with a religion to which most Americans don't belong. Why not build it there, where there's space and a demand for its presence and a group with the money to build it?

I personally don't care whether they build the cultural center or not, though I admit I'd be happier if people stopped clogging my street corners with religiously-affiliated organizations of any kind. The point is that MY HAPPINESS does not preclude their right to practice their religions, as their happiness doesn't preclude my right to think they're wasting their time and money.

I've touched on those points and several more, actually. And yes, Lower Manhattan IS desperately in need of that kind of community centre, not least because of the jobs that it'll create in the building of it. Other than Ground Zero itself, Lower Manhattan is, as far as I can tell, pretty much a ghost-town. They need the jobs, and they need the religious outreach. That's not saying they need God, but America in general needs to be more educated about Islam and how it interacts with other religions, and what true Islam really is. Hint: roadside bombs and flying planes into buildings isn't real Islam.

:/

[Olivier]

Worth a read:

http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/gp_mosque.html

[Sally]

Not sure why I'm putting this here, but I'm compulsively listening to the Stones' Gimme Shelter and just want to print the lyrics somewhere.

Oh, a storm is threat'ning

My very life today

If I don't get some shelter

Oh yeah, I'm gonna fade away

War, children, it's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

War, children, it's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

Ooh, see the fire is sweepin'

My very street today

Burns like a red coal carpet

Mad bull lost its way

War, children, it's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

War, children, it's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

Rape, murder!

It's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

Rape, murder!

It's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

Rape, murder!

It's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

The floods is threat'ning

My very life today

Gimme, gimme shelter

Or I'm gonna fade away

War, children, it's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

It's just a shot away

I tell you love, sister, it's just a kiss away

It's just a kiss away

It's just a kiss away

It's just a kiss away

It's just a kiss away

Kiss away, kiss away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foxKQAZ0KVE

(Yes, it's quite old...)

[strangebird]

Nothing to respond to the debate, but think there should be an Islamic centre wherever people are able to also build any other religious centre. As far as terrorism in the USA, I think the USA has been involved in quite a bit of terror in the world in general. I think Americans are just shocked that someone would attack America. I never found it that surprising, personally. Bullies who push people around usually get pushed back at one point or another. Doesn't make the bullies right or the ones who push back right, but it is what it is.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq13.html

[Guest]

Personally I don't really care. But I think that that mosque is going to get vandalized if it gets built. Because people like to have tangible enemies.

They're building a mosque in my town in TN, and someone recently set fire to the building equipment. If they build a mosque (or whatever it is, it sounds like a muslim YMCA) that thing is gonna get blown up. Pretty ironic if it does.

[outofeden]

They're building a mosque in my town in TN, and someone recently set fire to the building equipment. If they build a mosque (or whatever it is, it sounds like a muslim YMCA) that thing is gonna get blown up. Pretty ironic if it does.

Heh. Wow, that's how far away I am from the issue that I can just sit here and say "heh." It is ironic. And sad. I don't know if it's ever going to be possible, but I would like people to not blow things up. Actually, I rather like explosions. I want people to resolve their problems without killing each other. Really, how civilized could we possibly be if we can't reason our way out of war? /preachy

[KAW9]

Islam, I think, has been commonly connected to the going on's in the middle east and 9/11 in most American's minds. So, anything relating to Islam is being violently rejected by American culture right now because we connect it to violence, despite the fact that it's only extremist Islam that is a threat to anyone. As such, most American's have NEVER been quite about an oppinion they strongly hold, no matter how missguided they tend to be.

However, in the end the people who wish to build the Mosque are entirely in their own right to do so. If they don't build it, they have succumbed to society's pressures. And American Society WILL put pressure. While the american constitution is fairly open-minded so to say, the average american over the age of 30-ish is not. I'm guessing it stem's partly from the idea that "it was our ancestors have lived here for hundreds of years and faught for it, what right to foriegners have coming in and taking it" and the fact that prejudices have been passed down from parent to child since the beginings of time. And, may of those prejudices come from a) anyone who doesn't follow the Bible (as many American's were Christian and there beliefs have heavily impacted american society) and b) america for a long time was mostly white (just look at our presidents), and as such any non-white religion or ethnicity is held to scrutiny.

American culture isn't perfect, and prejudice is something that has deep roots in American history (slavery was legal till 1865). So, anything that goes against the norm (like building a mosque) will recieve critism, not forever, but for now.

[Sally]

The community center is going up, right now. There's no need or point to talk about "if" it will or talk about Americans resisting it. And it's not a mosque; it's quite a bit like our Jewish community centers in America, which are built because we're not the majority religion and we need, essentially, refuges.