Why won't people let boys where dresses/skirts?

[daveb]

It's not socially acceptable.

That's like the old parental standby "because I said so". It's no reason at all and leads to further questions. Like, why is it not socially acceptable?

[Elliott Ford]

You'll never change anything if you keep conforming.

This.

When i was small, my brother and i both collected dolls. I still do. I'm a transsexual boy - people ask me why i haven't gotten rid of the dolls "now that i'm a boy". I never saw any reason why boys shouldn't have dolls, still don't.

For one of my birthdays, i got a ballet video and a tutu. My brother demanded a tutu of his own - my parents got him one.

at one point, we had three doll prams - one was mine, one was my first brother's and the other was my second brother's.

We also had every Thomas The Tank Engine video in existence - all mine, female-bodied though i am.

For most of my childhood, my clothes were about half and half male and female. My brother wore girls' tops and borrowed my skirts from time to time. My brother is a perfectly well-adjusted cismale.

our primary school used to have "Bring a toy" day - he brought his favourite doll, i brought an RC car.

I agree that clothing seems such a silly thing to be so worked up about but... this is about freedom of expression. School, unfortunately, is not a place for freedom, it should be but it isn't. But in public, with people who can protect them from the worst of the stares (i don't know how things are where you are but i go out with my transwomen friends in public and they don't get too many stares. Once i went out with one of them and i got more stares for holding her wife's hand than she did for wearing a dress) it should be safe enough for them to wear what they want.

[iff]

blue isn't gender neutral? I thought that that color had lost it's gendered position

By that, I meant, blue is gender neutral, but pink is considered feminine.

my room used to be yellow. i didn't think there was anything wrong with that until i saw Juno and Jason Bateman's characther said that yellow wasn't gender neutral when jennifer garner characther had suggested painting the wall yellow as it was gender neutral

come to think of it, i still don't think there was anything wrong with it :D

anyway back to boys and dresses, jesus wore a dress. who the hell decided boys couldn't wear dresses. this gender identification by clothing is created by some humans and so we can undo the stereotypes created by ourselves

[TheMuffinMan]

Um, yes. I'd hardly call what Jesus wore a 'dress', per se, no more than I'd call modern day common male attire in the mideast a dress.

[Guest member25959]

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

[-V-]

Lets not forget the abuse that a male wearing a dress/skirt would face in public schools. Hes going to the "gay" kid for years, his classmates will make sure of it.

[M.H.]

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

i wouldn't really call that the same...the "why can't women grow beards" leads more into hormone things that need to be dealt with while a dress is just simply a piece of clothing that can easily be changed...eveyday in fact -_-

though i do believe that it is that it is a social issue...one that should be changed

as a side note...Italy wore dresses when he was little ^_^

don't mind me...I spent the weekend watching Axis Powers Hetalia :P

[TheMuffinMan]

Uhhhhhh....Italy? As in the country?

[Cupcake_Master]

Uhhhhhh....Italy? As in the country?

It's a manga and anime where countries are anthromorphized into humans.

I've never seen it, or read it, though.

Yes, I know "anthromorphized" isn't a word.

[KayleeSaeihr]

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

Screw Society :P

[endplusone]

I know someone who has a son who wanted to wear pink sparkly gloves to school. The father knew fully well his kid would be teased for the gloves and be called "gay", but he saw it as an opportunity for education and personal growth. I'm not a parent so I don't know the extent of difficulty of raising a child, but in theory I think you can give your kid choice while knowing that there can be positive outcomes to negative reactions or responses from others. His son would report to him when other kids in his group of friends would be calling other people "gay", and he had the chance to talk to him about how he felt about it and the broader implications of why this kind of language was being used. The kid felt that it was a very mean thing to do, that it was a word that was being used not in a good way but a bad way to tease, and that it was based on hatred and not on anything real. I obviously don't support dressing your kid up in everything that is not considered socially acceptable for the purpose of getting a reaction, and understand that not every environment is the best (such as a private religious school that has strict regulations against anything non-cisgender, where the repercussions are blatantly and institutionally supported), but at some point they need to start finding their way. If the pink gloves make the kid happy, why the fuck not? I do think kids need to understand that there will always be people in their lives who disagree with what they are doing to some extent, and they need to be able to prepare themselves for supporting why they feel a certain way, what they're interested in, and so on.

[GirlInside]

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

Screw Society :P

This comment kind of says it all. It sums up our difference of opinion. I believe in maintaining a low profile and sticking to what is socially acceptable (at least in public), because many things I want are things I am more likely to have if I stay within society's boundaries.

It's perfectly all right to rebel against society, as long as one understands the consequences.

[iff]

Um, yes. I'd hardly call what Jesus wore a 'dress', per se, no more than I'd call modern day common male attire in the mideast a dress.

potato, tomato

ohh wait, those aren't the same thing

scallions, spring onions.

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

but as we make up society, we can change what is socially acceptable

Screw Society :P

damn right

[Shockwave]

I saw a guy wearing a t-shirt and a sarong on the way to the store today. He also had his hair up in a loose bun. He didn't look at all feminine though (no makeup, etc.).

Also...

Yes, I know "anthromorphized" isn't a word.

No, but anthropomorphized is a word.

[please delete this account]

This seems to be another part of society i just end up ignoring, i just don't understand what the problem is here either (like lots here <3).

To me, it's just pieces of material all sewn together, it make not sense to me how this can be branded with a gender, (though, perhaps some clothing has been designed with a certain sex in mind - i.e: bras etc).

It's a similar thing with colours, it just doesn't wash with me. Pink =/= femanine and blue =/= male, maybe i'm just too fond of history but it strikes me as interesting that only 100 years ago or so pink was considered 'more masculine, a bolder colour' and yet blue was considered more 'femanine, a more delicate colour and elegant'. So it's just society sprouting useless ..... again.

In terms of the world also, it's not always unusual for men to wear 'skirts', like kilts and kimono (yukata etc) are worn by men and nobody cares, why should they now?

[ChaliceFlame]

I met what appeared to be a male backpacker in a skirt while out backpacking.

We need some bold men willing to wear skirts/dresses ,possibly face social rejection and then we need to be part of a society that accepts men in dresses.

I for one will not care if a man wants to wear a skirt or dress.

[KayleeSaeihr]

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

Screw Society :P

This comment kind of says it all. It sums up our difference of opinion. I believe in maintaining a low profile and sticking to what is socially acceptable (at least in public), because many things I want are things I am more likely to have if I stay within society's boundaries.

It's perfectly all right to rebel against society, as long as one understands the consequences.

If those opposed to slavery felt as you do... Or women... Or to some extent homosexual people... Well we'd be stuck in the 16th century or something. Change requires action, often against what is 'acceptable'.

[ChildOfTheLight]

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man insists that the world adapt to him. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -Shaw

[Or woman, genderless entity, androgyne, or what have you.] -CotL

It's perfectly all right to rebel against society, as long as one understands the consequences.

Whenever you ask "Can I afford to?" make sure also to ask "Can I afford not to?" For silence and the hypocrisy of the closet also have consequences.

Anyway, I am physically male, and have worn skirts, dresses, etc., in public. Mostly I don't get a reaction at all, so maybe it's not as taboo as it used to be.

[Kelly]

Anyway, I am physically male, and have worn skirts, dresses, etc., in public.

I have seen pics in AVEN.

You are awesome!

*awards *

[GirlInside]

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

Screw Society :P

This comment kind of says it all. It sums up our difference of opinion. I believe in maintaining a low profile and sticking to what is socially acceptable (at least in public), because many things I want are things I am more likely to have if I stay within society's boundaries.

It's perfectly all right to rebel against society, as long as one understands the consequences.

If those opposed to slavery felt as you do... Or women... Or to some extent homosexual people... Well we'd be stuck in the 16th century or something. Change requires action, often against what is 'acceptable'.

I agree. But the impression I'm getting is that people are saying that everyone should rebel, society be damned, and I don't agree with that.

There are those who believe in standing up against the establishment, and they have the right to do so. Then there are those of us who prefer to obey outwardly and then do as we please when no one's looking. I think there's room for both kinds.

[Sally]

Who is actually preventing boys/men from wearing skirts/dresses? I don't mean by not wanting to go against social mores; I mean, who is literally preventing it? They're not being arrested for doing so, are they?

Definitely, the more people do so, the less frowned upon it will be. When I first started working, female office workers weren't allowed by their employers to wear slacks/pants to work. Eventually that went away. This may also but the sooner men just do it, the sooner it will change.

The ironic thing is that some men are wearing kilts, but they're not considered "skirts" -- they're kilts, which men wear, not women.

[daveb]

Sally, no one is physically preventing it in my part of the world. It's mostly our own selves preventing us from it. On the other hand, there can be consequences beyond our control, without a doubt. In some places a guy could get beat up for wearing a skirt or dress. Or teased ruthlessly. In other places it might be the difference between being selected for being laid off or not (even if that were illegal it could be hard to fight it).

Speaking for myself, I'm sure a lot of it is my own doing. I am very averse to any public attention. I don't even want to be the off-center of attention! What I have learned to do is not be ashamed of wanting to wear skirts or dresses.

GirlInside, I agree that you have a right to not fight, to stay closeted, to protect yourself from possible consequences, real or imagined. I would be a major hypocrite if I were to argue otherwise. I think what some of us are saying is that won't make things change. We're not saying you have to be the one doing it. We're just saying if no one does than it's highly unlikely change will come and the more who do it the more it will happen. Believe me, I'm not going to be on the front lines on this! But there are other things we can all do, such as not join in ridiculing others who do push the envelope, supporting the rights of others (all others! It's hard to expect one's own rights to be respected if other people's rights are not. I support women's rights, gay rights, civil rights, human rights, etc. All for one!)

ChildoftheLight, I agree with Kelly - you are awesome! :D

[KayleeSaeihr]

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

Screw Society :P

This comment kind of says it all. It sums up our difference of opinion. I believe in maintaining a low profile and sticking to what is socially acceptable (at least in public), because many things I want are things I am more likely to have if I stay within society's boundaries.

It's perfectly all right to rebel against society, as long as one understands the consequences.

If those opposed to slavery felt as you do... Or women... Or to some extent homosexual people... Well we'd be stuck in the 16th century or something. Change requires action, often against what is 'acceptable'.

I agree. But the impression I'm getting is that people are saying that everyone should rebel, society be damned, and I don't agree with that.

There are those who believe in standing up against the establishment, and they have the right to do so. Then there are those of us who prefer to obey outwardly and then do as we please when no one's looking. I think there's room for both kinds.

If everyone did it; "rebel, society be damned", then that would be society. Society is often what the majority wants and expects... Though we should also be mindful of the Abilene Paradox, where "a group of people collectively decide on a course of action that is counter to the preferences of any of the individuals in the group. It involves a common breakdown of group communication in which each member mistakenly believes that their own preferences are counter to the group's and, therefore, does not raise objections."

[sinisterporpoise]

Uhhhhhh....Italy? As in the country?

It's a manga and anime where countries are anthromorphized into humans.

I've never seen it, or read it, though.

Yes, I know "anthromorphized" isn't a word.

I think that's a shakey reference to many tunics being skirt like. It's a vague and obscure historical reference.

[Beardless]

Personally, due to an... incident at primary school, I don't wear skirts. They make me feel naked. The only sort of skirt I'm prepared to wear now is a sturdy denim, with long socks. Co-incidentally, that was what a friend of mine - who was presenting as male at the time - was wearing one evening I went round to theirs. They claimed it belonged to their partner, but I'm not sure it'd fit her. But this was in the safety of the house.

I don't think there's anything feminine about a sturdy, ankle-length denim skirt. Unfortunately, the use of the word skirt will generally make most people think girly...

Historically, tunics, kilts and other garments have been worn throughout the world by males. It's only modern western society that doesn't put a skirt/dress-like garment in the men's section. It's a shame... so use somewhere elses' fashions.

I know a few cis-males who've been seen round town in skirts. They're students, thus everything is expected.

Edited to add: Bring Back New Romantics!

[henshin]

Hmm, its the same as 'Why can't women grow beards really', its just not socially acceptable.

Screw Society :P

This comment kind of says it all. It sums up our difference of opinion. I believe in maintaining a low profile and sticking to what is socially acceptable (at least in public), because many things I want are things I am more likely to have if I stay within society's boundaries.

It's perfectly all right to rebel against society, as long as one understands the consequences.

If those opposed to slavery felt as you do... Or women... Or to some extent homosexual people... Well we'd be stuck in the 16th century or something. Change requires action, often against what is 'acceptable'.

I agree. But the impression I'm getting is that people are saying that everyone should rebel, society be damned, and I don't agree with that.

There are those who believe in standing up against the establishment, and they have the right to do so. Then there are those of us who prefer to obey outwardly and then do as we please when no one's looking. I think there's room for both kinds.

If everyone did it; "rebel, society be damned", then that would be society. Society is often what the majority wants and expects... Though we should also be mindful of the Abilene Paradox, where "a group of people collectively decide on a course of action that is counter to the preferences of any of the individuals in the group. It involves a common breakdown of group communication in which each member mistakenly believes that their own preferences are counter to the group's and, therefore, does not raise objections."

People aren't 'rebelling' by trying to be who they are. Hiding is fine if you can trundle along happily without standing out, a lot of people don't have that luxury and it is on the behalf of everyone who is forced to be a martyr just for being themselves that people should stand up, whether you are directly affcted or not.

Also, that quote has nothing to do with the society we live in (I'm talking UK and US here) because we haven't collectively decided anything, a systematic devaluation of women exists, its called patriarchy, its imposed upon us unwillingly, it has serious, life threatening results for men and women and everyone in between who it says shouldn't exist.

[Sammie]

No answer to the 'why'.

People are slow to accept new social norms. Girls in pants were shocking at first and girls did get in trouble for it. But since so many girls chose not to accept societies rules and go out in pants, society eventually gave in and accepted.

Girls fought for those rights but sadly there has been no revolution for boys and men's rights to be feminine. That emancipation is possibly one of the future, if boys get up and publicly take a stand for their right to things now considered 'feminine'.

And it's up to the boys and girls to tell guys in skirts how awesome they look.

[KayleeSaeihr]

In Rome, ancient Rome, women wore pants not unlike trousers, and men wore togas not unlike skirts.

[Sammie]

In Rome, ancient Rome, women wore pants not unlike trousers, and men wore togas not unlike skirts.

Actually, Roman women wore dressed most of the time as well.

But hey, in 17th century France high heels were considered very masculine because they made you look taller and any woman wearing them would get in serious trouble for wearing drag.

[KayleeSaeihr]

Yes. Clothes are silly.