Asking for unfulfilling sex ...

[SexualHubby]

Maybe not a guaranteed break-up but finding out your spouse (or long time g-friend/b-friend) was faking it all along makes you shudder- it's such a ego shattering realization that hurts sooo deeply and makes you question everything. Ask me how I know? I went through all of this- When I tried to talk about it (5 years or more ago), things got even worse- she told me she never liked oral and didn't ever want to do it again- so our sexual realm grew even smaller (as did my penis, I think ). Why sexuals like myself have so much wrapped up (their identity, their ego, their well-being) in an ability to express sexual desire, the act of sex itself and also have that returned to them in hopefully equal, meaningful portions is beyond me...but it's true- without this, we feel unfulfilled and that a huge part of us (as mentioned earlier- identity, ego, well-being) is missing. But honesty is still always the best medicine- it wakes you up, makes you begin to talk and hopefully come to some type or compromise (unless one party completely shuts down). No one needs to go through life faking anything with someone they've pledged their love to.

[sexualwithasexual]

Maybe not a guaranteed break-up but finding out your spouse (or long time g-friend/b-friend) was faking it all along makes you shudder- it's such a ego shattering realization that hurts sooo deeply and makes you question everything. Ask me how I know? I went through all of this- When I tried to talk about it (5 years or more ago), things got even worse- she told me she never liked oral and didn't ever want to do it again- so our sexual realm grew even smaller (as did my penis, I think ). Why sexuals like myself have so much wrapped up (their identity, their ego, their well-being) in an ability to express sexual desire, the act of sex itself and also have that returned to them in hopefully equal, meaningful portions is beyond me...but it's true- without this, we feel unfulfilled and that a huge part of us (as mentioned earlier- identity, ego, well-being) is missing. But honesty is still always the best medicine- it wakes you up, makes you begin to talk and hopefully come to some type or compromise (unless one party completely shuts down). No one needs to go through life faking anything with someone they've pledged their love to.

This mirrors much of what I've going through and I really can't agree more that honesty is completely necessary. I think my partner has been as honest as she could most of the time, but I really started doubting she was interested in ANY sex about 3 years ago. Since reading everything here on AVEN, I have had moments of relief "It's not my fault that she does not reciprocate sexual activity." To horror, "She NEVER liked it! Was she faking it all along?" After much discussion, I realize nothing is really different or new. We've been figuring this out all along.

I think Olivier's paradox is just that. But I still stick with the idea the the best strategy is to try and understand each other. I think she gets me much better than I get her. But maybe it just seems that way since I'm the one that brings it up more often. She's not going to bring it up. It's very hard now for me to be interested in sex with her knowing that she's not primarily interested in it herself. Yeah, maybe secondarily, as a way to please me, but that really is not the full thing for a sexual. I would love it to be the primary thing for her. But that's not fair (but that's how I would like it...) I just can't get into sex knowing that she's not. I still feel very attracted to her though. Both of us don't like the halfway idea either. So I think I'm happier with this set up:

We have MORE lovey dovey touchy stuff like cuddling, snuggling, massages, taps and hugs - a win win for both of us in our case.

I look at the other signs of true love and emotional love that I've been overlooking in the past due to being too caught up in worrying about, "If she doesn't want to have sex w/me, doesn't that mean she doesn't LOVE me love me? Like in that kind of deep, emotional way?"

And lastly, although I don't have any current crushes outside of our relationship, and never would act on them, I have had them in the past, and I'm open about them w/my partner, and I think she's pretty secure in our relationship, so I'm open to those fleeting attractive experiences and flirting as a way to get something I find I really want (need?), feeling attractive! Sexually attractive. So if my partner can't sexually desire me, I can vicariously and safely do this by kind of flirting. I know this may be a little chancy, but I've really only met one person ever that I want to live and share everything with, and I'm living with her. I think our relationship is safe.

What are other strategies that you all have tried out there?

[Sally]

I'd like to know of any strategies that could possibly get a sexual partner off the "betrayal" circle. My ex-partner, who I thought was now a friend, still goes over and over it, in his mind and verbally. When I think he's understood that I didn't know myself what was happening and once I did, I told him, he then goes back to agonized cries of betrayal. I'm not making fun of that; they really are agonized cries and listening to them hurts. I know he's thinking of the (very long) period of time we were together when he thought I was completely returning his feeling, and now he knows that I didn't. I think he understands that I loved him (in MY way but not in HIS way). I don't think there's anything I can do or say that I haven't already. Any ideas, sexuals? Do I just give up tormenting myself and him with trying to explain and explain, over and over again? He seems to be hanging onto his anger for dear life.

[sexualwithasexual]

I'd like to know of any strategies that could possibly get a sexual partner off the "betrayal" circle. My ex-partner, who I thought was now a friend, still goes over and over it, in his mind and verbally. When I think he's understood that I didn't know myself what was happening and once I did, I told him, he then goes back to agonized cries of betrayal. I'm not making fun of that; they really are agonized cries and listening to them hurts. I know he's thinking of the (very long) period of time we were together when he thought I was completely returning his feeling, and now he knows that I didn't. I think he understands that I loved him (in MY way but not in HIS way). I don't think there's anything I can do or say that I haven't already. Any ideas, sexuals? Do I just give up tormenting myself and him with trying to explain and explain, over and over again? He seems to be hanging onto his anger for dear life.

I think the very best place for him is here on AVEN. This is the cure pill in my opinion for those feelings. All I have to do is wander over to the the asexual rantings page or some other thread and I can read 10 or more asexuals who feel very in love and want to try anything to keep their partners. I was shocked at the candor and it really made me see things from her perspective. When it outside of "us" I can get away from taking it all so damn personally.

It is a head trip to find out that what you thought was an equal exchange just wasn't, but I know that my partner was never doing anything consciously deceitful, and even when maybe she was figuring it out, I just can not really be angry if I put myself in her shoes. It's hard to even use the gay analogy, like, "Honey, what if you realized you were gay even though you loved the other person dearly." Because I'm gay and I've had great straight sex. I think asexuality is different, but I do think one can finally get it. But I think it's his job to do that at this point, not yours! My mother thought I had betrayed her by being gay. She demanded many answers. Finally I gave up and said, "If you want so desperately to figure out what gay sex feels like, go try it yourself." Now, I know that's dumb, but you know what, she finally did stop bugging me and has even admitted to having some gay crushes of her own. One way I'm dealing is to try and really imagine that I'm asexual. It's an interesting exercise, like acting or something. I'm sure many an asexual has been doing that for years! (imagining what an being sexual feels like)

One other thought. I figured out at some point that even though sex between two people is a shared experience, I own my own pleasure. In other words, even if my partner was not totally there, that doesn't take away from my experience, so there is no betrayal in that sense. It's hard to explain I guess, but he needs to understand he is the owner of his sense of self, well being and sexual fulfillment, what you got out of it is your own business. He should not have to feel responsible or betrayed, and you should not have to feel tormented by his lack of ability (yet) to figure this out. (although I think he has, it just won't stick. Funny how the brain and the heart can separate from each other at times...)

[Olivier]

And lastly, although I don't have any current crushes outside of our relationship, and never would act on them, I have had them in the past, and I'm open about them w/my partner, and I think she's pretty secure in our relationship, so I'm open to those fleeting attractive experiences and flirting as a way to get something I find I really want (need?), feeling attractive! Sexually attractive. So if my partner can't sexually desire me, I can vicariously and safely do this by kind of flirting. I know this may be a little chancy, but I've really only met one person ever that I want to live and share everything with, and I'm living with her. I think our relationship is safe.

What are other strategies that you all have tried out there?

We've found flirting to be helpful, too, but inside the relationship. With the expectation on both sides that this will only occasionally lead to sex, then it's all good. For my wife, treating flirting that goes nowhere as a compliment rather than pressure is a win, and for me treating it as an anticipation builder rather than rejection is a win, too.

I'd like to know of any strategies that could possibly get a sexual partner off the "betrayal" circle. My ex-partner, who I thought was now a friend, still goes over and over it, in his mind and verbally. When I think he's understood that I didn't know myself what was happening and once I did, I told him, he then goes back to agonized cries of betrayal. I'm not making fun of that; they really are agonized cries and listening to them hurts. I know he's thinking of the (very long) period of time we were together when he thought I was completely returning his feeling, and now he knows that I didn't. I think he understands that I loved him (in MY way but not in HIS way). I don't think there's anything I can do or say that I haven't already. Any ideas, sexuals? Do I just give up tormenting myself and him with trying to explain and explain, over and over again? He seems to be hanging onto his anger for dear life.

I doubt this will be helpful, I'm afraid, but it worked out pretty much exactly the opposite for me.

It was before we discovered asexuality that I felt a sense, albeit slight, of betrayal. My wife's libido, while low, is not zero. And so the fact that she did have a sex drive, but didn't direct it at me, was the most hurtful thing. The disconnect between her words of love and her actions of sexual rejection gnawed away at the trust that I had no other reason to doubt. When you think that you have a libido mismatch only, then simple things like the asexual partner masturbating seem like the ultimate betrayal - "I have a sex drive but you kill my desire" is not good in a sexual/sexual relationship.

I'm not sure you can tell him, other than that to have tried so hard to be the partner he wanted, to have put his desires ahead of your own for so long because you not only wanted things to work, but to work the way he wanted them to, is not really betrayal in any sense. As much as I'm sure he would rather everything had just been peachy, I seriously doubt things would have been magically ok if you hadn't tried so hard to make it work.

[Sally]

Thanks to Olivier and SexualwithAsexual for your suggestions/replies. If he even knew what a computer was, I'd have him on AVEN, but he won't or can't.

I've thought about trying to apply what you've said to my situation and realized something that is disheartening, but realistic: My ex-partner really doesn't want to come out of his anger. He has a number of other problems, including age (he's even older than I), and residual injuries from an accident, and had a very slight stroke recently, and he has never been able to look at his life and see what he can do with it rather than what he can't. I think that in disappointing him, I've provided a convenient hook on which to hang all those problems. As Sexualwith said, I did try for years to put what he wanted first. However, what he wanted was what I simply couldn't provide, although I tried and tried and tried...makes me tired thinking of those years.

I should have told him how I felt years ago, even if I didn't have a name for it. I was just too scared because that would mean he'd leave me.

Now I wonder if I should never have told him. I thought he'd really noticed, but now it sounds as though (or he's determined to feel that) he was completely fooled. So now he feels like a fool and you can't love someone who makes you a fool.

I do think it's hopeless. You can't be a friend with someone who's furious with you; that's unrealistic for me to expect.

Sorry for the babbling. I'm thinking as I'm writing.

[sexualwithasexual]

Thinking while writing is the best. And anger man sounds like he's no good for himself and no good for you. Although I don't like to give up hope, so... people can surprise you with change sometimes. I think you've got him figured out pretty well with the hanging his anger on something, someone in this case. But I do think someone can love someone who "fools" them. But again, it'd be his choice I suppose. I think he's missing out of course. If only he could turn it around in his head to see what you did because you DIDN't want things to end. Then his feeling fooled or betrayed might lessen, but that's hard if it's coming from you, like, "Don't you see all I sacrificed for you?" Doesn't usually win people over, however true it may be.

Well, I feel lucky my partner has felt okay with letting me know when she doesn't want sex (always). Reading your post makes me realize she feels safe enough that I won't just leave over it.

Olivier, one question. When you flirt with your wife, and build anticipation... does she respond in a way that makes you feel like she is sexually attracted to you? I mean even if you both know that it safely may not lead to the bedroom, does she flirt back enough to make you feel attractive? I think my partner is so not able to feel that. I mean for her, it would be faking it as much as faking enjoying sex is. We can find semi-flirt like modes, and believe me, I go there whenever I can. It's usually along the lines of teasing in a knowing and loving way of an inside joke (not in sexual nature - but more like personality quirks.) They are fun because she smiles at me in a way that makes my heart melt and is close to a real flirt, but there is no sexual charge...

Well, I want you to know how much I appreciate this thread! And hearing from Sally provides a crystal ball into my potential future.. I do wish you could be friends with ex/anger man, or I should call him anger ex/man, but he sounds like he needs to do some inner soul searching and that's up to him.

[Olivier]

I thought he'd really noticed, but now it sounds as though (or he's determined to feel that) he was completely fooled. So now he feels like a fool and you can't love someone who makes you a fool.

It could be that he feels foolish for letting his hopes interfere with his ability to hear, and believe, the words and signs you may have given about your attitude to sex. It can feel even more foolish to know you have heard, but realise you never really listened, than to think you were never told.

(or maybe that's just me :redface: )

[Sally]

I thought he'd really noticed, but now it sounds as though (or he's determined to feel that) he was completely fooled. So now he feels like a fool and you can't love someone who makes you a fool.

It could be that he feels foolish for letting his hopes interfere with his ability to hear, and believe, the words and signs you may have given about your attitude to sex. It can feel even more foolish to know you have heard, but realise you never really listened, than to think you were never told.

(or maybe that's just me :redface: )

I think you're right. That just makes it more hopeless because he's really contending with himself, not me, so there's nothing I can do or say now.

Should I have even told him? (That's assuming I could have continued somehow to pretend.) Would it have actually been easier on him if I'd not said anything? Bear in mind he's not 40, he's 70, so he wouldn't be out searching for someone else (probably).

[Olivier]

That just makes it more hopeless because he's really contending with himself, not me, so there's nothing I can do or say now.

Should I have even told him? (That's assuming I could have continued somehow to pretend.) Would it have actually been easier on him if I'd not said anything? Bear in mind he's not 40, he's 70, so he wouldn't be out searching for someone else (probably).

You could say that he's hardly at fault given that you didn't fully understand it for so long either. But I imagine you've gone down that route already.

While it may have been easier on him to not say anything, it would have been harder for you. Anyway, it's done now, and as you say it's up to him how well he handles it. Perhaps you could ask him what he thinks you should have done in your position.

Another (unhelpful) thought: maybe I don't feel so foolish for not listening because I was the one who stumbled on asexuality, while looking for things my wife might like in lieu of sex. I must have been listening at least a bit

[Sally]

You are a listener, Olivier. An Australian male, yes, but a listener. :lol:

[Galen]

Sally you sound like a wonderful and compassionate person.

I may be the wrong one to answer here.

Honesty we all know is the foundation of a good relationship, especially honesty with yourself. For our relationship though it was I that found the idea of asexuality and am using it to accept the status quo here.

I really don't understand Angry Man though. Perhaps it is being told that you had always faked your feelings. I guess anyone that has watched When Harry Met Sally wouldn't believe they are always real.

At his age etc... and depending on your tolerances it may of been better to not have said anything. Seems you both would be happier now. But that is hindsight and you did the right thing in being honest, something I have great difficulty doing even though never lying is my wifes first and highest standard, her only unforgivable rule.

Maybe he will understand someday, though that is little comfort now for you.

I'd send you cake but don't know how.

Edit: I type too long and Oliver is much more eloquent and like him I stumbled onto the Asexual idea.

[Sally]

Thank you, Galen. That was actually rather comforting. There isn't much use in continuing to project what could have happened if I hadn't said anything. It wasn't like he was uncomplaining before I said anything, either, and that wasn't fun. He's actually a pretty complaining guy. Sigh.

Thank you for the (imaginary) cake. It was very tasty!

[sexualwithasexual]

Another (unhelpful) thought: maybe I don't feel so foolish for not listening because I was the one who stumbled on asexuality, while looking for things my wife might like in lieu of sex. I must have been listening at least a bit

I totally know what you mean about thinking (once finding out about asexuality) that you were not listening all along. My partner was basically telling me in not so many words, that she was asexual. That's why when I found AVEN and told her to look, she explained, "Yeah, that's what I've been saying this whole time. I'm asexual." But for me, seeing it as something that happens out there, made it easier to separate the whole thing from myself. It's not mismatched libidos after all and such! So I feel less bad about not listening. I was trying, I just didn't have a way to truly grasp it. I've really had a paradigm shift.

And Sally, I'd still say that as painful as it all is, honesty was mostly like the best thing. It sort of seems to me it may have been inevitable. For you to be able to stay relating to him, maybe you had to be honest with yourself and him... Just guessing... drag that he can't come around...

[daveb]

I just didn't have a way to truly grasp it. I've really had a paradigm shift.

And Sally, I'd still say that as painful as it all is, honesty was mostly like the best thing. It sort of seems to me it may have been inevitable. For you to be able to stay relating to him, maybe you had to be honest with yourself and him... Just guessing... drag that he can't come around...

Your point about having a way to grasp it resonates with me as an asexual. Until I found AVEN I didn't grasp it either.

And I agree with your comment about honesty. I'm growing more and more convinced that it's best to be true to yourself and good people will be with you, too. It's not always easy to do. That's not to say one shouldn't compromise in a relationship. I think it's sometimes possible to find compromises that allow both parties to be true to themselves.

[sexualwithasexual]

Your point about having a way to grasp it resonates with me as an asexual. Until I found AVEN I didn't grasp it either.

Daveb, that's interesting that you had a similar experience as an asexual. I kinda wish my partner would be more curious about it. I don't know why I feel that way. I guess just because I am so curious. I think she really knew in some ways all along. But maybe not. She's not very curious about the sexual (or lack there of) side of herself. I interpret that as meaning she is pretty comfortable with herself.

[Sally]

She's not very curious about the sexual (or lack there of) side of herself. I interpret that as meaning she is pretty comfortable with herself.

It could also mean that she's uncomfortable. It would be pretty hard for an asexual not to know that they are not in the "normal" cohort. But if you don't realize that you indeed have your own cohort, you just try to be normal and don't think about it because you don't know how to think about it. Thinking about something requires terminology; until very recently, we didn't have such.

[daveb]

She's not very curious about the sexual (or lack there of) side of herself. I interpret that as meaning she is pretty comfortable with herself.

That could very well be, and if so - good for her! :)

[sexualwithasexual]

She's not very curious about the sexual (or lack there of) side of herself. I interpret that as meaning she is pretty comfortable with herself.

It could also mean that she's uncomfortable. It would be pretty hard for an asexual not to know that they are not in the "normal" cohort. But if you don't realize that you indeed have your own cohort, you just try to be normal and don't think about it because you don't know how to think about it. Thinking about something requires terminology; until very recently, we didn't have such.

I really do wonder. I would think that I would be able to tell, but I can't. One the one hand, she says that she knew from a very early age that she was not interested in sex. She found out she was a lesbian, and she figured that was it. But even then, she said she thought she'd always be alone. I know she's very happy to have a lot of space and is very independent. She loves being with me and is happy to have a partner, but I know that she doesn't have any problem with the idea of living alone too. She says if we were to break up, she'd never get involved again most likely. She says this in a way that makes me think she knows who she is and is totally comfortable with it.

But on the other hand, she seems uncomfortable talking about sex or sexual desire, orientation etc, in a way that resonates with what you are saying about the lack of terminology. It's very interesting how something almost can't exist, at least socially or culturally, until there is language for it! I find that fascinating! But back on topic... I do think that you may be right! Most of the times throughout our relationship when we talked about sexual desire, she would say, "we just have different sex drives I guess." But eventually, she did start saying that I was the more normal one. So maybe you are right about her trying to be normal, she's even saying she wasn't. hmmm I do wish she'd hop on AVEN. She has glanced but not dug in the way I have. I'm almost an addict. But I think I'm using it the way you would a therapist... so, thanks again!!

[Galen]

She may be like my wife and just not interested in the subject period. It is not part of their life, not something they talk with colleagues, family or friends about. Seems the subject is avoided as much as the act. But, now that I know that therapy, drugs etc... will have no effect, I feel no need to push her to see a therapist about it. I do want to talk to her personally and try to find guidelines where she can be comfortable enough to allow more hugging without believing I will be upset there is no chance of sex. She currently mistakes my sadness for being mad at her.

[sexualwithasexual]

She may be like my wife and just not interested in the subject period. It is not part of their life, not something they talk with colleagues, family or friends about. Seems the subject is avoided as much as the act. But, now that I know that therapy, drugs etc... will have no effect, I feel no need to push her to see a therapist about it. I do want to talk to her personally and try to find guidelines where she can be comfortable enough to allow more hugging without believing I will be upset there is no chance of sex. She currently mistakes my sadness for being mad at her.

Yes, I have also thought of that possibility. That is how it seems, but sometimes things are not as they seem, and the other posts have me thinking. I'm also realizing how hard this is for my partner too. I mean I knew that, but not to the extent that I know now, thanks to reading candid asexual stories here.

I think that whether you seem sad or angry to her, she's seeing herself or her asexuality as the source of the pain and that must be incredibly hard. This mismatch in orientation just keeps me thinking of how I have thought about gay/straight couples. Although less common now, my aunt and her husband went through this. They stayed together, even when he had to be outed due to becoming sick with AIDS. He had to explain to his whole extended family how he contracted it, which was gay sex. I always thought it was amazing that my aunt stayed with him through to his death. My grandmother could never understand why she did. Now I understand completely!

[Sally]

I have to say that you guys on these several threads that are active now are really nice!

[sexualwithasexual]

I have to say that you guys on these several threads that are active now are really nice!

It's a really amazing place, AVEN. I've never been able to get into online forums until now. I feel like I have a battery of experts on my side - on all sides! What would we do without the internet? So many people would stay in the dark. I feel like younger asexuals on here are really blossoming and are so lucky to be able to meet and greet and potentially hook up with a love that is their same orientation! Hurray for the founder and all of the avenites!