Asking for unfulfilling sex ...

[Olivier]

Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this dynamic, and what they did about it ...

Part of the compromise in our relationship is to have sex, on terms acceptable to my wife and considerate of her asexuality. So because sex isn't her favourite thing, and she's doing it for me, she'd rather that is was quick and basically non-confronting. That way she gets to stay in her comfort zone where she's happily indifferent, and not hit her time limit where she starts "zoning out" and wishing it was over already.

And that's all well and good, but in practice what this means is:

* little or no foreplay (to keep the total time short)

* no focus on her pleasure (by her request - too confronting, unlikely to succeed, and we're doing this for me, right?)

* no enthusiasm/passion expected from her (happy willingness ought to be enough, that's the compromise)

I'm guessing that at this point, most asexuals are saying: "Well that sounds reasonable, and it's great that she's so accommodating and that you've found something that works for you both". Or something like that.

And most sexuals are saying: "So you have sex that's: short on foreplay, over quickly, cheerful but passionless, and not at all focussed on her pleasure, and she says she can't see what's so great about sex. I'm not surprised!!". Seriously, even a sexual having this sort of sex would wonder why everyone raved about it, and would probably have a fairly low level of interest (and/or high level of frustration) if that's all they could get.

But my wife is convinced, partly through experience, that if we focussed more on her - or added more foreplay (which on its own she sometimes finds arousing) - that rather than boost her enthusiasm and increase her enjoyment, it would move her from indifferent to uncomfortable and pressured, and therefore unwilling. And it's not that she hasn't enjoyed such things in the past, but more that she feels that because in the past that's worked sometimes and not others, that there's an expectation that she love it every time, even though I've very honestly told her I have no such expectation.

So now, any attempt by me to shift things away from sex being 100% about me is, paradoxically, seen as an attempt to shift the compromise in my favour (by asking for things that I know are out of her comfort zone).

I have no reason to doubt that what she tells me is true, for her. But still, sometimes that just does my head in.

Can anyone relate?

[BunnyK.]

Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this dynamic, and what they did about it ...

Part of the compromise in our relationship is to have sex, on terms acceptable to my wife and considerate of her asexuality. So because sex isn't her favourite thing, and she's doing it for me, she'd rather that is was quick and basically non-confronting. That way she gets to stay in her comfort zone where she's happily indifferent, and not hit her time limit where she starts "zoning out" and wishing it was over already.

And that's all well and good, but in practice what this means is:

* little or no foreplay (to keep the total time short)

* no focus on her pleasure (by her request - too confronting, unlikely to succeed, and we're doing this for me, right?)

* no enthusiasm/passion expected from her (happy willingness ought to be enough, that's the compromise)

I'm guessing that at this point, most asexuals are saying: "Well that sounds reasonable, and it's great that she's so accommodating and that you've found something that works for you both". Or something like that.

And most sexuals are saying: "So you have sex that's: short on foreplay, over quickly, cheerful but passionless, and not at all focussed on her pleasure, and she says she can't see what's so great about sex. I'm not surprised!!". Seriously, even a sexual having this sort of sex would wonder why everyone raved about it, and would probably have a fairly low level of interest (and/or high level of frustration) if that's all they could get.

But my wife is convinced, partly through experience, that if we focussed more on her - or added more foreplay (which on its own she sometimes finds arousing) - that rather than boost her enthusiasm and increase her enjoyment, it would move her from indifferent to uncomfortable and pressured, and therefore unwilling. And it's not that she hasn't enjoyed such things in the past, but more that she feels that because in the past that's worked sometimes and not others, that there's an expectation that she love it every time, even though I've very honestly told her I have no such expectation.

So now, any attempt by me to shift things away from sex being 100% about me is, paradoxically, seen as an attempt to shift the compromise in my favour (by asking for things that I know are out of her comfort zone).

I have no reason to doubt that what she tells me is true, for her. But still, sometimes that just does my head in.

Can anyone relate?

I haven't experienced that myself, because though my ex-boyfriend was very low-sexual, once he got into things he nearly always enjoyed it. What surprises me is that *you* can enjoy such a compromise. :P

[Guest Heligan]

Yep I entirely see where both you and your wife are coming from; recently been having this type of sex to try to concieve... there is no doubt about it, its not really like sex should be (I do remember how sex should be after all, prior to all this asexual stuff).

I really relate to the request for no foreplay! To be honest a lot of the time I find attempts to arouse me incredible annoying (and even slighly painful, errogenous zones are delicate areas and if they arent experiencing arousal pain isnt far off if they keep getting manipulated).

I think if possible its best to focus on the more emotional side of it, because that might be something that is achievable for both of you. If she has any demi tendencies at all this is more likely to bring on arousal too.

Whether that is enough, is of course something everyone has to answer for themselves.... and I imagine over a long term relationship the answer is going to go through phases.

[PiF]

I noticed the bit you missed was not the before or during but the after

Your need was taken care of but for her after the wizz bang the most important bit may be the cuddles and hugs after performing such a selfless act and feeling close to you. Funny thing is that you ask most sexual couples who have been a couple/married for a long time and very few do foreplay/roleplay etc there sex life is like a ferry boat..roll on roll off so there is very little difference if any between what you describe and what sexual relationships are

Youv'e found a compramise that works with someone you love, man I think you've found the good times

[Guest Heligan]

I noticed the bit you missed was not the before or during but the after

Your need was taken care of but for her after the wizz bang the most important bit may be the cuddles and hugs after performing such a selfless act and feeling close to you. Funny thing is that you ask most sexual couples who have been a couple/married for a long time and very few do foreplay/roleplay etc there sex life is like a ferry boat..roll on roll off so there is very little difference if any between what you describe and what sexual relationships are

Youv'e found a compramise that works with someone you love, man I think you've found the good times

Humm I didnt read it like that at all, I thought he was missing aspects of the before and during!

[Olivier]

Heh, we're good before, during and after :) Although after, it's often me who wants to cuddle, and my wife's all "done the sex thing, going back to work now" (her office is 2 metres from the bed :))

And before anyone suggests that I "do something around the house so she's not so tired" etc, etc, etc, you should all know, or be reminded, that I'm a stay-at-home dad and homemaker, and by some distance the more romantic of the two of us.

Emotionally we're fine. We're coming up for twenty years together, and outside sex our relationship is perfect. The sex aspect though, is occasionally weird, which after so long with mismatched drives and orientations sort of figures, especially when you add in some dumb directions we headed in before we discovered asexuality.

And probie, the problem for me is that the wizz bang as you call it doesn't really take care of my need, because I'm the one that's craving closeness and connection. Quick sex and outta here is her idea, and it's a compromise because otherwise she'd choose no sex at all - she's happy with the closeness she feels without sex already, so sex is unnecessary for her in that regard.

My confusion is just that if we are going to compromise, it seems strange to me to want sex that fits the textbook definition (for sexuals) of unfulfilling sex. I accept that for her, it's the only type of sex she finds tolerable or enjoyable, but I can't help but struggle with that as a concept, because it's so different to my own view.

And frankly when you hear or read about women complaining about how their partner is selfish, too quick, not focussed on their pleasure, not sufficiently complimentary or romantic, I can't help but think: "according to those criteria, I would be their dream lover, but my wife wants someone who either has no interest in sex, nor her sexual pleasure, or is a chronic premature ejaculator - exactly what those other women have and hate. How screwed up is that?"

[Sally]

I have to admit that I spent all the years I had sexual partners (partners who were sexual; sex with sexual partners, whatever) wishing the guy would just get it done. If you aren't really interested, that's what you do; wait for it to be over. But then it's not, because they'll be another time when he wants there to be another time. There wasn't any negotiating then.

Of course, I also attempted to act like I was enjoying it. That was so wearing I don't know how I did it for that many years. I don't know what that could be compared to so sexuals would understand because I don't know what sexuals would do on a consistenly-expected and demanded basis that they really didn't want to do, but someone else they loved needed them to do.

I can relate to Olivier's dismay that his wife wants the focus to be on him. I wanted that also; I didn't want my partners to try to help me enjoy it, to ask me if it was better than last time, to cuddle afterward, to talk about how romantic it was, to make it into a huge emotional/sexual thing. I just wanted it to be over, and have an end to the sexual situation. If we cuddled afterward that was nice, but not because of the situation situation.

To be briefer, if you don't really like it or need it or want it, there's really not much anyone else can do for you, and you'd just rather they didn't try.

[AllyCat]

I'm sexual with a reasonably high sex drive, but I can sympathize with your wife. When I'm not in the mood, attempts to get me in the mood by touching me usually make me feel groped and pressured. I have a much easier time if my husband asks me to do nice, sensual things to him. I think having control over what I feel is the crucial variable here: being touched when I don't want it feels invasive and unsafe at some lizard brain level, even if I trust the other person and have consented to be touched. Maybe this is what's going on with your wife too?

[AVENCakes]

I agree with Bunny- I don't know how unfulfilling sex is a compromise for anyone. I suppose it's just asexual idealism, but it seems like sex like that with a partner who clearly doesn't want it and is only putting up with it for you would be about as fulfilling as masturbation. At least you know with the latter, everyone involved is as into it as you are.

I don't know what that could be compared to so sexuals would understand because I don't know what sexuals would do on a consistenly-expected and demanded basis that they really didn't want to do, but someone else they loved needed them to do.

I can't think of anything that would apply to many. Maybe something where one partner has a high end job that requires them, and their partner, to dress formal and schmooze with people and the other partner hates doing that, but knows it means so much to their partner so sometimes you just have to suck it up and smile through and hope nobody notices that it's a fairly faked smile.

Or if you have young kids, how they love that one story book that you didn't really want to get them in the first place, and they want you to do the silly voices. And even though you have other things to do, and know they'll ask again next week (if you're lucky they wait that long)- but they love that damn story and it makes them happy and it gets them to sleep so you do it anyways.

That's the best I could think of- it does seem like it'd be a difficult comparison.

[Olivier]

What surprises me is that *you* can enjoy such a compromise. :P

It's not so bad - it's not like she's gritting her teeth and saying "get it over" - it's just that quicker fits better with her sexual attention span, and lighthearted fits better than passionate. But it's not a train wreck, and there's still good stuff in there for both of us.

I'm sexual with a reasonably high sex drive, but I can sympathize with your wife. When I'm not in the mood, attempts to get me in the mood by touching me usually make me feel groped and pressured. I have a much easier time if my husband asks me to do nice, sensual things to him. I think having control over what I feel is the crucial variable here: being touched when I don't want it feels invasive and unsafe at some lizard brain level, even if I trust the other person and have consented to be touched. Maybe this is what's going on with your wife too?

It is, somewhat. But not the feeling good about doing nice sensual things for me. That's OK for her if it's agreed there's to be no sex, but as foreplay, not so much.

I agree with Bunny- I don't know how unfulfilling sex is a compromise for anyone.

But there's the thing - it's not unfulfilling to her. She feels, rightly, that she's giving me something that meets at least some of my needs. And it's not completely unfulfilling for me either. Even if there are aspects that I miss, on the whole what we do do is geared towards making me feel fulfilled. I appreciate the generosity that I'm the receiving end of, and only struggle with the idea that returning that generosity in kind is unwelcome.

It's just that I can't help projecting that for me, sex that was quick and didn't address my pleasure in any way would be unfulfilling for me. And so when my wife says she could live without sex, it's hard not to think "that's because the sex you're having is the type that's easy to live without".

I suppose it's just asexual idealism, but it seems like sex like that with a partner who clearly doesn't want it and is only putting up with it for you would be about as fulfilling as masturbation. At least you know with the latter, everyone involved is as into it as you are.

But if what you want is closeness and connection and intimacy and shared pleasure, then going solo doesn't really tick any of the boxes.

[SexualHubby]

Wow, great topic.

Lately my asexual (at least I still think she is) is trying to help "me" with the pleasure aspect of what I've been denied for years. She has been to therapy four times and apparently the therapist has helped her understand how important sex is to her from a male perspective (he's male obviously), so she's gungho to try to be intimate now but still says "nothing below the belt" because she doesn't know how I really feel about her. In previous threads, I've said my love for her has withered away... Anyway, getting back to things, it's the reciprocity of passion and wanting to please each other that makes sex between sexuals so great- something that is so lacking with an asexual. I don't really know how this can be fixed unless you partition your time between just being intimate (without the sex) to be as close in proximity to the actual sex act that the asexual sees all the foreplay and afterplay (cuddling, etc.) as unrelated but the sexual sees it as related. I don't know if that is possible, but worth thinking about.

[Sally]

And so when my wife says she could live without sex, it's hard not to think "that's because the sex you're having is the type that's easy to live without".

But after all this time and the tussling you've both done with this situation, you know that's not why she could live without sex. She could live without it simply because she doesn't desire it, period. doesn't matter what kind of sex it is. You'd like it better; she probably--or certainly--wouldn't.

[< retired >]

Can anyone relate?

So your wife wants you to be a typical human male in the sack, while you aspire to a deeper and richer experience. I can see how this would be frustrating.

If it's any consolation, when you and your wife do become physically intimate, your bacterial colony merges with her bacterial colony and you both briefly become a single supercolony, even when sexual intercourse does not take place. Isn't that romantic? :)

[daveb]

To be briefer, if you don't really like it or need it or want it, there's really not much anyone else can do for you, and you'd just rather they didn't try.

As an asexual male I felt pretty much the same way.

I appreciate Olivier's point of view - in the back of your mind you think there must be something you can do to make it better for her, more pleasurable, or something.

After years of trying I now realize there was nothing my girlfriend could've done to make it better for me. Often the more she tried the more annoying it was. It also meant the whole process lasted longer, so I had to spend more time and energy trying to look like I was enjoying it. I really did enjoy the cuddling and physical closeness and even some of the non-sexual foreplay. But I would've been much happier if I could've just enjoyed that stuff without the sexual stuff.

This may sound a bit like taking it too lightly or something, but one analogy that comes to my mind is this: I enjoy making and eating homemade chocolate chip cookies and I enjoy sharing them with friends. Most people I know say I make the best they've ever had. But a few people don't like chocolate chip cookies at all (can you imagine that? not liking chocolate chip cookies! :lol:). No matter how good the cookies I make are those people won't care for them. The more I try to get them to take a cookie the more it just annoys them. (at least with the cookies I can say "that just leaves more for me"- sorry).

p.s. I see Sally got in another brief and salient post before I could get this one out! :lol:

[Sally]

p.s. I see Sally got in another brief and salient post before I could get this one out! :lol:

non-brief and salient trumps brief and salient!

Our comments are a perfect match, Daveb. That's the first time I've read a man say exactly what I, a woman, experienced.

[Olivier]

And so when my wife says she could live without sex, it's hard not to think "that's because the sex you're having is the type that's easy to live without".

But after all this time and the tussling you've both done with this situation, you know that's not why she could live without sex. She could live without it simply because she doesn't desire it, period. doesn't matter what kind of sex it is. You'd like it better; she probably--or certainly--wouldn't.

Oh, I know that's the rational and true answer, but on an emotional level sometimes the rational goes out the window.

It's like wanting plain white rice and nothing else. Chocolate? Yuk! Strawberries? Ew! Fillet steak? No way. Tomato soup? Disgusting! And then, then, turning to the foodie next to you and saying "Oh, I've tried food, even if it's just plain white rice day after day, three meals a day, and I just can't see the appeal of food. Why would anyone enjoy it?"

I guess what sucks me back in to the paradox is that on the subject of how good short-duration, low-intensity give-but-don't-get sex feels, we pretty much agree - it's nice, but nothing special.

[Sally]

I think the last time you and I had that back-and-forth, Olivier, you scolded me for making food analogies. Now Daveb has talked about chocolate cookies, which I can't stand because they're usually too sweet, so I've sat here slightly shuddering at that icky taste. Then you talk about rice and strawberries and steak, all of which I love, and now I'm famished and don't have any of that in the house. Being on AVEN is difficult for any kid of foodie. :lol:

It is quite frustrating when you can abstractly understand how another human can have a particular feeling, but you cannot truly understand that feeling (doesn't matter whether the feeling is yum or ick). Which is the quintessential dilemma of sexual/asexual relationships. I don't see any way around it. I struggled with it basically all my life.

[daveb]

Oh, I know that's the rational and true answer, but on an emotional level sometimes the rational goes out the window.

That's very true.

I guess you keep doing what you're doing, huh? - caring, loving, exploring, trying to understand :D

Best wishes!

[daveb]

I think the last time you and I had that back-and-forth, Olivier, you scolded me for making food analogies. Now Daveb has talked about chocolate cookies, which I can't stand because they're usually too sweet, so I've sat here slightly shuddering at that icky taste. Then you talk about rice and strawberries and steak, all of which I love, and now I'm famished and don't have any of that in the house. Being on AVEN is difficult for any kid of foodie. :lol:

What!? you can't stand chocolate chip cookies?! Maybe you just haven't had the right ones... ;) :lol:

Rice? I can take or leave

Strawberries? yum

Steak? yum

Now, what good food can I make this weekend... :D

[Pamcakes]

Olivier, I have no advice. I can only say, having read some of your other posts, that you're my hero.

Your strength, love and commitment toward your wife are an inspiration for all sexuals in love with asexual partners.

The only insight I can offer here (again, with the food), is that I've never eaten a prawn, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like it, regardless of how it was presented to me or what it was flavoured with, because just looking at them grosses me out. Your wife doesn't like sex.

That really sucks. As another person in a mixed-drives relationship, I think I can probably empathise pretty well with just how much - however, the fact remains; she's not into it. Nothing you can do, most likely, will ever change her mind, and trying to get her to experiment will only make her feel frightened and unhappy. She knows it's important to you, but she wants it over with as quickly as possible.

That, unfortunately, means you're getting just enough love-making to whet your appetite, but nowhere near enough to truly satisfy you. You can't turn off your drive for emotional, passionate sex, and she can't turn off her lack of one.

It's kind of like having guests come to stay with you; you're happy to see them, they're delighted to get to hang out with you, but they're not as comfy as they'd be in a hotel and you don't have as much freedom as you would if they weren't around.

Just another case of everyone trading off on something they want, to get a little bit of what they wanted.

I wish I had something useful to say, but all I can offer is my support.

You're clearly a great husband and a kind, loving and understanding man.

Be excellent to each other.

P.

[evanescence]

I can totally relate to your wife's wishes. Because of my personality I tend to compromise a little more and have occasional sex that takes my "needs" into account.

E.

[Sally]

What!? you can't stand chocolate chip cookies?! Maybe you just haven't had the right ones... ;) :lol:

Maybe I'm just a late bloomer for chocolate chip cookies. Very VERY late. :lol:

[AntiBubble]

If it's any consolation, when you and your wife do become physically intimate, your bacterial colony merges with her bacterial colony and you both briefly become a single supercolony, even when sexual intercourse does not take place. Isn't that romantic? :)

I'm so using that as a chat-up line next time I have chance!

"Hey sweetcheeks, wanna come back to mine 'n' make a bacterial supercolony?"

In fact, I think I'd marry anyone who used that line on me :D

[Olivier]

Olivier, I have no advice. I can only say, having read some of your other posts, that you're my hero.

Your strength, love and commitment toward your wife are an inspiration for all sexuals in love with asexual partners.

:blush: And I have to point out that in making it all work, I have help

The only insight I can offer here (again, with the food), is that I've never eaten a prawn, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like it, regardless of how it was presented to me or what it was flavoured with, because just looking at them grosses me out.

It's funny you should use prawns as an analogy for getting into my wife's mindset, because for me, it's a parallel with my own: I love prawns, but bad things happen when I eat them. So, as much as I miss them (my allergy only developed about ten years ago), and much as I still get happy feelings seeing big fat fresh king prawns in the fisherman's co-op, and much as I wish I could make my favourite prawn curries (one of which is even published in a cookbook - my only published recipe, ironically, is one I can't eat), I manage to live a happy life without prawns, because the pain is not worth it.

Be excellent to each other.

We try. And about 99.5% of the time, we succeed :)

I can totally relate to your wife's wishes. Because of my personality I tend to compromise a little more and have occasional sex that takes my "needs" into account.

We've been there in the past, and I miss that. :(

[SexualHubby]

We've been there in the past, and I miss that. :(

I totally understand (sigh) :o

[Galen]

Hi Oliver,

I have read many of your post before finding this thread. I knew you had an agreement or compromise worked out. I also believe I read that you both went through a stage of experimentation. I envy you the stage of experimentation, but not your compromise.

I feel close in that I have also been married 19+ years and have a strong desire not to be quick and dirty, but to please my wife, which would then give me knowledge and satisfaction of a job well done. I feel fortunate that we are not at your stage yet.

I until reading this forum seldom felt I satisfied her properly. Often petting or foreplay would lead to her disconfort and an end to any further attempts. Or if we did get to intercourse and I did not finish quick enough it would lead to the disconfort and an end. I am fortunate that at times it leads to a fair mutual ending, which she then may lay with me a short while before showering. Still, I am a victim of fiction I believe and always hoped for a much greater interaction, multiple orgasms, oral etc....

After reading the forums a bit I hope to adjust my perceptions of what I believe she should expect from me and trust when she says that it was good for her. Hopefully it will never get to it being just her allowing me to use her body, for celibacy or a prostitute (not an option with my kids still a factor of our marriage) seem better options at that point.

Sorry to be long winded again and posting on an older thread. I understand, it seems to be the same craving many of us sexuals here desire from sex, not the physical part but it really is the emotional part that we miss.

[Olivier]

Hi Oliver,

I have read many of your post before finding this thread. I knew you had an agreement or compromise worked out. I also believe I read that you both went through a stage of experimentation. I envy you the stage of experimentation, but not your compromise.

...

Sorry to be long winded again and posting on an older thread. I understand, it seems to be the same craving many of us sexuals here desire from sex, not the physical part but it really is the emotional part that we miss.

Ah, I must have just been frustrated that day, in retrospect it comes across a bit harsh because I was talking in absolutes, when as always there are shades of grey.

It's not always lightning fast (or if it is we often make a game of that ;)), it's just a general preference on my wife's part for shorter over longer. But sometimes it's plenty long enough. And it's not that she's completely averse to orgasm, it's just that she finds them somewhat meh, and not really worth the effort. As far as variety is concerned, my wife's indifference to vanilla intercourse means we probably have more variety in or sex life than many heterosexual couples. All that experimentation turned up a reasonable number of things that my wife is not averse to, even if her main motivation is pleasing me rather than herself.

But still, while we do stuff that I find more fun, that's because she knows I find it more fun. If she didn't have my desires to accommodate, she'd choose what I'd find bad sex, or choose no sex.

So we do in fact manage to have what I'd call "good sex" often enough. It's just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that what makes it good in my book is what makes it a compromise in hers. But it's a compromise she's willing to make because (a) she's wonderful, and (b) she can see that having sex as a compromise is pretty pointless if I don't enjoy it.

[CrazyCatLover]

This reminds me of one of my friends saying that "I doubt I could get it up if she wasn't enjoying herself." Very sweet and all, but it certainly explains (a major reason) why a/s relationships can be so difficult. Umm, I think I had a point to make, but it ran off...

[Sally]

This reminds me of one of my friends saying that "I doubt I could get it up if she wasn't enjoying herself." Very sweet and all, but it certainly explains (a major reason) why a/s relationships can be so difficult. Umm, I think I had a point to make, but it ran off...

That's a good point. I heard that from one person in my life for years. He just didn't realize I wasn't until I told him. (Big mistake, by the way.)

[AVENCakes]

This reminds me of one of my friends saying that "I doubt I could get it up if she wasn't enjoying herself." Very sweet and all, but it certainly explains (a major reason) why a/s relationships can be so difficult. Umm, I think I had a point to make, but it ran off...

I think that is a good point. It's also why I've seen some aces scared to tell their partners. They think if they can continue to fake enjoyment it'll be fine, but once they admit that they don't desire sex then their partner won't be happy with what they can do and that'll guarantee a break-up.