Marriage w/ Asexual wife about to end

[daveb]

I don't know how to respond to these latest posts except to say my heart goes out to you all... Maybe it's better I never got into a relationship until very recently (now ended for various reasons) and that that one ended before she got too hurt (I hope). Since I discovered AVEN and asexuality I am determined not to get into a relationship that can't be sustained to the best for both parties. I try to remain open to possibilities and hope, but I think I'm more realistic about what I want and what I can offer.

I also want to thank you all for sharing your experiences! Hopefully it will help more of us (asexuals and sexuals).

Best wishes! :)

[hopeeternal]

xsex- my husband is getting much much better about apologising and staying angry less long. Days would go by now he can get better in a matter of minutes or hours. He does recognize his faults better but still has trouble really empathizing. He blames it on how his parents were. his dad is still alive and he just doesnt "listen", Mow my FIL is a very kindly man but very overbearing and doesnt process what he hears. Hell ask a qquestion and one will give the answer and he either keeps on asking. He has always been like this so its not just old age. Example, once he adn my MIL bought me a college sweatshirt and kept apologising for the lack of "women's sizes" to which I told them there are no womens sizes. Hed repeat we looked for a womens size but there weren't any, and id say because the DONT MANKE THEM its OK! My husband tells many stories and anecdotes from his childhood where he just was not heard. Oh his parents were "good parents" they clothed and fed him, never physically or verbally abused him, but they never acknowledged him. I recall when we were dating there was something his father wouldnt let him do so i said why dont you explain the situation. He told me it wouldn't matter. At the time I didnt understand but as I got to know my FIL he just bulldozes (in a kindly way) and does what he thinks is right. As we analyzed his dad, we came to the conclusion that he cannot understand anything other than his own perspective. Hummmmmmm interesting. Now my husband is much better as he can intellectualize others feelings and he can give and take in coversation (with my FIL interjection is almost impossible no give and take in conversing). What my husband cannot do is intellectualize that I might have a different feeling without him taking it really personally. I think his own belief on marriage is a bit flawed, in that we both should see eye to eye on 100% of things. he tends to speak very often in terms of "we" think this and like that. In 90% of the cases its true. But sometimes i get upset that he doesnt get that its not always "we" and when I may say something to the contrary is when he has his feelings terribly hurt. Maybe because when he was a kid it wasnt OK to think differently? oh and his parents never argued or fought. My MIL was very traditional but I felt sad when she would just sigh and say :Well thats henry" . it wasnt until she passed on that I realized her spark was taken away. When people spoke at her funeral about some of her early years i could not believe it was the same woman I knew.

When my husband gets like this i will tell him he sounds like his dad. That usually brings him to his senses. I also think hes torn between wanting me to accept everything he says and does like his mom did and wanting me to be the complete opposite. Strong and independent.

This all said, last night we actually chatted for a few minutes in bed before he fell asleep with one leg each overlapping. it was wonderful. We used to do that more. This morning he just held me for 10 minutes before we got up and it was wonderful. admittedly, I would have loved for it to have gone further but our son was up showering already but I DIDN'T NEED IT TO GO FARTHER!!!!! I made an effort to not remotely act like I wanted it to go farther either and i ended the moment by asking him if hed like breakfast kissed him lightly and got up. i felt very good about that. What was funny is when I was spewing out my guts the other day to him it came out all wrong. We arent the typical suburban couple and I love that. But I said that i wanted to go out once in ahwile just the two of us.... So he interpreted that as i wanted to be like other couples around here with date night at trendy restaurants. So he jokes me if I had made a reservation for tonight at XXX (fill in name of trendy place that we generally comment negatively on) So I tell him that he still didnt "get it" and that what I loved was how last night ended and how this morning began.

I think now i can put word to what i really want as a "compromise". Sure Id love to make love every day but i can easily live with once every week or two IF i got a little bit of focus on me at bedtime at least a kiss goodnight and a few moments where hes not joking about being asleep already or pushing me away in the AM and "joking" that its 'time to get up". And if he just held me like he did and not pet my hair like Im a cat instead.

Im somewhat introverted myself but I was craving more social contact because I felt very very lonely at home. I would like to be a bit more social than we are but its much more livable and enjoyable if hes giving me some focus.

[n44ww]

A question for the sexuals out there: is the underlying reason that we are drawn to lovemaking is that it is special, just between you and the one you love, that you reserve just for them, that is the ultimate way of expressing your love? That you give of yourself in a very intimate way to the one you love and they return their love in the same way? That the asexual's inability to respond in kind makes you feel as though the real love is only one-way, that they really don't love you the way you love them?

A question for the asexuals out there: could the inability to express your love through lovemaking indicate that you've made a conscious decision to limit the depth of love expressed? Perhaps as a means of control? Or to reserve that depth of love for someone else, perhaps unknown? Or could this withholding have its basis in a feeling that expressing feelings in that way is somehow wrong - like some remnant feeling conveyed when you were growing up...? Like avoiding public displays of affection - because it simply isn't "right" - are private displays of intimate affection also somehow not 'right'?

Just some thoughts that crossed my mind.

[Sally]

A question for the asexuals out there: could the inability to express your love through lovemaking indicate that you've made a conscious decision to limit the depth of love expressed? Perhaps as a means of control? Or to reserve that depth of love for someone else, perhaps unknown? Or could this withholding have its basis in a feeling that expressing feelings in that way is somehow wrong - like some remnant feeling conveyed when you were growing up...? Like avoiding public displays of affection - because it simply isn't "right" - are private displays of intimate affection also somehow not 'right'?

No.

[Olivier]

A question for the sexuals out there: is the underlying reason that we are drawn to lovemaking is that it is special, just between you and the one you love, that you reserve just for them, that is the ultimate way of expressing your love? That you give of yourself in a very intimate way to the one you love and they return their love in the same way? That the asexual's inability to respond in kind makes you feel as though the real love is only one-way, that they really don't love you the way you love them?

Nope, I think I'm drawn to sex because I'm heterosexual. If I just wanted to express my love in the deepest way possible, I wouldn't choose sex, because my wife's pretty indifferent to it.

A question for the asexuals out there: could the inability to express your love through lovemaking indicate that you've made a conscious decision to limit the depth of love expressed? Perhaps as a means of control? Or to reserve that depth of love for someone else, perhaps unknown? Or could this withholding have its basis in a feeling that expressing feelings in that way is somehow wrong - like some remnant feeling conveyed when you were growing up...? Like avoiding public displays of affection - because it simply isn't "right" - are private displays of intimate affection also somehow not 'right'?

That doesn't sound at all like my wife, either. There's no withholding going on, it's just that the sexual attraction isn't there.

-----

Trust me, I've got a marriage that is in all ways perfect apart from sex. If it was just a matter of will, I'd give up wanting sex. If it was just a matter of will, my wife would learn to feel sexual attraction, and tie feelings of intimacy to sex.

But it's not just a matter of will. We've both tried, and we've both failed to make any headway at all, because sexual orientation is not just something you can wish away.

[xsex]

hopeeternial,

Every time you post something about your husband and his family, I have to laugh because it sound so much like my In Laws and my husband. By any chance, is your husband a first generation of Immigrant parents? If so, what nationality?

Why do I think your going to say yes, and Italian? Anyway, so much of our responses in life are programed and imprinted early on. I can understand how you desire to remain at home because of your children, they need their parents, especially in their teens. Of course, the teen will tell you to split up in a heartbeat because they see so much of it around them, and they know it will allow them more freedom. I don't think you are dealing with an asexual husband either. What you have shared about your previous and current routine sex life is nothing that couples who have married an asexual have gone through over the years. I can see how you are identifying with what many of us our saying, because many of us posting are also discussing the issues that are quite common in marriages getting up their in the years like yours. Marriage to an asexual over a long period of time has many of the same problems that anyone in a long term marriage encounters. It's difficult when you get beyond the 20 year mark. I think you may be on the right track looking at physical issues which may be effecting his sexual needs. It is not uncommon for either partner after 20 years to just get board with each-other sexually, or begin having physical issues which slow every thing down. Also, there are a billion medications that people are taking for different issues' which really effect the sexual desire. We who have been married for many years go through periods of "awakenings" that send us reeling emotionally. Suddenly your lives have changed, the kids don't need their parents as much, the jobs become their spouses new love in life, and you begin asking what happened to us, who am I anymore? The worst part of these wake up periods is realizing that you are now seen as a particular person by all your loved ones and you begin resenting being looked at through such a small, narrow view finder. You begin thinking "who am I, what happened to the me I use to be?" It makes you want to bust out of the confined roles that your marriage has gotten you into. Since we don't know how to do this without tearing apart the marriage, and people are reluctant to change, we begin to think maybe if I leave I can find myself and love again. It is a difficult time, each and every time you go through it. Many long term couples will do all they can to change within the marriage because so much of who they are is tied to the life they have created with their spouses. Some just can't find any bonds left, and they just leave. I myself have decided that after 35 years, this separation I have begun is not intended to end in a divorce, but hopefully it will allow both of us to reevaluate what we are as individuals and how our manner of interaction has been hurting each-other. I figure after all these years, what will a winter and spring apart do to harm our marriage when thats all we've been doing anyway for years? Maybe we both find ourselves again and build on that. I do encourage you to check into any regular medication side effects your husband is taking and do make him get his prostrate checked out.

[xsex]

Ok, here is a subject no one has brought up as a partial solution to our frustrating sex life. Yesterday, for the first time in my life I actually looked on the internet under "sex toys." I thought, why have I never sought out some sexual relief in this manner? I don't know what men can buy that is intended as an individual toy, but there sure are a lot of toys for woman to buy. So maybe for us woman, this is something to look into that will help fill that unmet need.

Oh and hopeeternial, I don't mean to say I am laughing at your situation at all, only the similarities I keep seeing. Hope you understand.

[xsex]

I have a question to ask of the asexual people on this thread. If you don't really understand or desire sex, would you feel jealous or threatened by your sexual spouse arranging to get their sexual needs fulfilled by another person, or a professional? What would be the pros and cons of giving this agreed upon arrangement a try?

[AVENCakes]

A question for the asexuals out there: could the inability to express your love through lovemaking indicate that you've made a conscious decision to limit the depth of love expressed?

I haven't limited the depth of love expressed- maybe thinking love is the deepest expression of love is a conscious decision on your part to limit your ability to express love. I express love to my partner in a million different ways and they express it to me in just as many. If the only way you can express the depth of your love is through one act, you may be lacking in creativity.

Perhaps as a means of control?

Seeing as how many asexuals are willing to perform, even if it's extremely emotionally detrimental, just to please their partner- how is that a means of control? Actually, to the first one, how is that not a deep expression of love?

Would you enjoy sex with someone you found sexually unnattractive? If you're heterosexual, how would you feel sleeping with the same sex? Maybe you'd have no problem hugging, even cuddling, kisses on the cheek, etc- but when it got down to actually sleeping together, how would that feel? Would it feel like an intimate act that you associate with sleeping witht he opposite sex, or would it feel like "okay, why am I doing this? I don't even like this person in that way."?

That's what sex for just about every asexual is like. Even if you love the person with all your heart- you don't want to sleep with them.

[daveb]

A question for the asexuals out there: could the inability to express your love through lovemaking indicate that you've made a conscious decision to limit the depth of love expressed? Perhaps as a means of control? Or to reserve that depth of love for someone else, perhaps unknown? Or could this withholding have its basis in a feeling that expressing feelings in that way is somehow wrong - like some remnant feeling conveyed when you were growing up...? Like avoiding public displays of affection - because it simply isn't "right" - are private displays of intimate affection also somehow not 'right'?

Sally, Olivier and RDraconis already answered this very well. I can only echo their words. No, asexuality has nothing to do with withholding love, as a conscious decision or otherwise. It also has nothing to do with limiting the depth of love expressed. As an asexual person sex is just not in my "love vocabulary". I understand sexual people can feel that sex is a deep expression of love and I'm not disputing that. It just doesn't do anything for me personally. I would not expect nor desire sex from someone I love either, no matter how deep that love is.

I have a question to ask of the asexual people on this thread. If you don't really understand or desire sex, would you feel jealous or threatened by your sexual spouse arranging to get their sexual needs fulfilled by another person, or a professional? What would be the pros and cons of giving this agreed upon arrangement a try?

That's a tough question. Maybe some would, but I am sure I would get jealous that my partner might start feeling more connected to that other person. I don't think that would be fair, but that's emotions for you. That is why, since discovering my asexuality and learning a lot from this community, I plan to avoid getting into a relationship with another sexual person. I know some people work it out, Olivier being a prime example, but it's one thing if the relationship is well-established before the asexuality is known and understood by both partners.

I'm only speaking for myself and not judging others. We're all individuals and what works for one person or one couple doesn't always apply to everyone else.

[hopeeternal]

xsex- i think youre right a bit aboout the boredom. I think Ive gotten bored with just normal married life in general . Ive alwsy loved the fact that we have been a pretty unconventional couple. Weve had a very stressful summer and I tend to need more in teh way of sex when Im stressed. He tends to need less. As he shuts down i crave more. All throughthe years hed always tell me wed have more together time if he didnt have to work. he just has such a terrible time with his self image i think. He is either a total fuddy duddy or totally immaturely silly. He tends to think in black and white terms so to avoid being like his dad ( a prim and proper type who's main form of identity came from his career and being a father) he will act like a 10 year old sometimes and derives his self identity from his hobbies.

This said we made some big progress this weekend, after of course him him overexaggerating chivalrous behavior towards me and lightheartedly teasing me about it. I thing because i couldnt truly express what it was that I really wanted (besides more frequent and more attentive sex) I was dancing around the topic a bit in the effort not to make him fee threatened. Well I was truly rewarded to one of the best weekends Ive had in YEARS! Saturday we woke up and held each other I was hoping it would progress but was content if it didnt. Well it did and it was wonderful. I made him breakfast and we went out and did our usual chores (alone no kids) and he took me to lunch. Nothing fancy, but not at the same olf places and not take out. He did take his nap but aske me to wake him up in 1 hour. We spent th afternoon clenaing our garage. Doesnt sound romantic but it was a long time since weve dont anything like that without him barking orders and me feeling like I was contantly being told what to do. We went out to a locan diner wiht our kids for dinner and wached tv as a family. Sunday AM- I was very pleasantly surproised with more wkae up sex. I dont thing we've had sex two days in a row since we were trying to conceive our third child 16 years ago. And again he was more attentive. Neither day was quite my fantasy but it was attentive enough to satisfy me, not only that but the fact that he had heard me was worth more than the world to me. Went out for brunch with the family. Again he asked me to wake him from his nap in 1 hour (he had been literally sleeping from after lunch until just before dinner). We finished some more work outside but not at teh usual breakneck pace. Just pizza for dinner then a nice family evening. He didnt go right to sleep but lay awake until i got into bed for a few sentences of talk then a kiss goodnight. Thats really what I have been wanting. the funny thing is he looked genuinely HAPPIER than I have seen him in quite some time as well.

So if he is happier this way too, could it bee the fact that he needed to feel loved too? I mean when we talked I admitted to not being innocent either. He evidently felt I was shutting him out. Guess he needs to feel the connection before sex can happen and I need sex to happen in order to feel the connection. Well it will be interesting to see how long this lasts. We have plans to go to a race weekend this week. Our car is in teh shop and might not be done so at first he thought wed just go up for Sat and Sun, but then he said we should go up Thursday night and sleep in late on Friday. Sounds good to me. Wonder if hes trying to make another opportunity since Sat and Sun are very early days where we need to get up by 6:00 am? We shall see.

This link was something i came across and it really explains what a couple with mismatched needs goes through. The last section specifically addresses frequency of sex. I recall thinking that he never wanted it enough for me to ever not be the first to want it. Gets back to what I said the other day. http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2004/09/re...hip-cycles.html The more I dont get sex, the more I crave it. Can apply to any need or relationship issue.

Well one thing is Im not crazy "horny" today as I have been for the last couple of months. No need for my sex toys today (yet anyway) Had to drop him at the airport for an overnight business trip. hell be home tomorrow so not a long one. Well need to go take my 15 year old to the store to get some supplies he needs for a school design project.

Oh and FWIW, hes is grandson to Polish immigrants on dad's side. Moms family here a bit longer and is of Irish descent. Almost the same ethnic mix as I am. Whats with the Italians tough. A good friend is married to a son of italian immigrants and she is in the process of leaving him also due to a real sexless marriage.

[Fayetje]

Your story is heartbreaking! I truly believe that situations like these are some of life's most tragic romantic situations. Especially this part:

At the end of the summer 2007, our anniversary was coming up and I made plans to really splurge and take her to a resort for the weekend where she would be pampered with massages, facials, etc. - all things that she loves. This was very expensive but it was our 20 year anniversary and we were working towards rekindling our spark. At the resort, my wife seemed to glow! She was truly in heaven. I wined and dined her- gave her every luxury I could think of- even rented the best suite they had. Then on the night of our anniversary after going to a very sheik piano bar, and having drinks, all the while holding hands like two teenagers in love- we went back to our room. I thought this was going to be it! I don't know why but I had imagined there would be lingerie, candles, soft music, etc. and of course, long, slow love-making. Instead, once she was in our room, she said she was tired- quickly got into bed and turned the lights off and rolled over to go to bed. I was left speechless and I laid in our large, cruel bed and cried quietly to myself. The next morning's drive back to our home (2 1/2 hours) was in total silence. Looking back on the events of that night- where I was rejected once again, but this time after much effort had been made to rekindle our spark- I can truly say was when my "spark for her was completely extinguished."

I can imagine I'd be clamoring for divorce as well after a night like that. And as you said....no kissing, hardly any hugging....not even any snuggling at night before going to sleep. This may just be her asexuality, but, if she does love you as she says, she could still do better to express it in terms that you understand. The little things like hugs and kisses and cuddles...they all add to the picture, too.

I think...you have to do what you know in your heart to be right. Can you be in love with her if this is how it's always going to be?

[SexualHubby]

Thanks for your response. Actually, if you read on through all the pages, you will find that she is in therapy now and making great effort. She touches me and hugs me...even tries to snuggle when we're on the couch together- actually initiating some. To be honest, it's me now that is hesitant. I can't verbally tell her I love her- I just don't feel it anymore. She has taken her wedding ring off and I am sleeping in the other bedroom until I can say these simple words- but I can't with true honesty. I feel on one end that if I don't try harder, all of her efforts are going to be awash and she'll never connect with me and we'll never had the marriage that I so much desired before I told her I was leaving this summer (and my feelings for her were extinguished 2 years ago) and on the other end, if I do connect with her and she gets me "reeled" back in, I feel that her old self will eventually take over and we'll be back where we were, miserable and out-of-sync with each other. My biggest problem right now is that as much as she's trying I don't even want to much connect with her. We have tried sex a few time and I can't keep an erection- even if I start off with one. I guess it's my gray matter that interferes. I have no problem closing my eyes and masturbating without losing it if I'm not thinking of connecting with her. It's almost like I've become asexual towards her now and she's the sexual one although w/ internet images or just in general, I'm very sexual. She's told me I should also see a shrink but I don't want to...I feel that my feelings are either going to be or are not going to be towards her. Anyway, what a turn-around. Can anyone lend any insight here?

[Sally]

Well, I shouldn't be so blunt but I am and will be.

I really think it's over for you, sexualhubby. You don't sound interested, intrigued, in love, or anything. You've been saying in many ways for some time now that you just don't feel for her what you did.

It may be time for you both--or at least you, if she can't--to say, "We've tried, and it just doesn't work."

There is no law that says every marriage must endure, no matter what.

[n44ww]

Here my theory, bound to offend some, I'm sure: Many things are under your own personal control, so you can change what you like. The first time I smoked a cigarette - it was awful. I've never smoked again. However, I understand that others tough it out and then get to liking cigarettes. Same with coffee. The first cup was awful, but then I got to liking it. Some people call it "acquired taste", but there is probably some psycological term for it, maybe conditioned response.

I suspect that if the circumstances are right, you are positively motivated and among supportive people, you can make a lifestyle change. What's more, you may well like it. Consider a course you took in school that you had to take, but didn't know a thing about it. You enter the classroom, maybe thinking you won't like it. But the the teacher starts the lecture and find the teacher to be extremely interesting. Fully engaged, you excel in the class and become one of the top students. When it comes time for college, you select that to be your major. Why? You had a positive, lifechanging experience. This is just how life is. However, you have to be open to ideas.

So, SexualHubby, this is your opportunity to make or break things. If you truly open yourself to this 'new' woman, and put aside any petty feelings, you may find that things are OK. Then, as you respond (as if she were someone you just started dating), she will be 'rewarded' by being with someone responsive and caring. I have a feeling things will snowball (in a good way). Don't hold back. Go for broke. You may be surprised by how good things can be.

If you hold back now, then don't waste her time and effort. Without you rewarding her behavior, she will comew away thinking that her efforts were wasted, pointless and will be disinclined to ever try again.

If she had suffered from a stroke and needed encouragement to stay with her therapy to recover, would you encourage her to keep at it or just avoid her until she was healthy again?

I may be full of hot water (I'm sure the asexuals will let me know), but wouldn't you rather give it everything that you've got, hoping for success (which would be a good growth experience for you) or just pray for a miracle and take what you get with no personal involvement? Could you look yourself in the mirror?

Tough talk, I know, but doesn't it make sense?

[Sally]

I really tried to make sense of the previous post but couldn't.

A marriage is an agreement between two people that they'd rather be together than separate. If at least one of those people doesn't feel that way anymore, then there's no real marriage left.

I have had--and still am having, but that's another awful story--the experience of having had a long involvement with a sexual. I'm asexual. I can see NO way that sexualhubby's situation can be likened to assisting someone who's suffered a stroke. In fact, my ex-partner/barely friend has indeed suffered a stroke and I'm helping him but am certainly not attempting to "reward" his behavior, nor is he expecting that. Sexualhubby and everyone else has the right and the responsibility to make their own decisions based on what they think is right, not on someone else's idea of what a "growth experience" would be.

[SexualHubby]

Thank you for both of your insights. I am still trying. I just don't want to keep doing this if every time things end in despair...it's not fair to me and it's not fair to her. I don't know when to stop trying...to get off of this roller coaster. I guess I'll stick it out until after my son's birthday and her mother's visit next month and then make a firm decision. At least that's the time line I'm giving myself. If a "trial" separation finds new feelings towards her then I can always go back...but the candle is burning. How much is she willing to put up with at this point? How much will turn her off and we lose what "could have been" forever...I don't know.

[Galen]

Wow, just found this site tonight.

I also have been married 19 years and so much sounds so familiar.

I am male and love her yet have always felt resentful towards our lack of sex. Especially none on our honeymoon after our first experience together on our wedding night. I have gone many years hearing I was abnormal one desiring her so much. We seem to average once a month but with many long breaks.

A few months ago I let her know I thought she was "asexual". She looked up and accepted she may be... this led to her accepting that I may not be so abnormal. I have worked to accept the status quo, but it has always has been difficult to not be desired by my life partner.

Tonight, was the first time I actually researched "asexual", I had first heard the term in a newspaper column of a woman saying she was but provided services once a week anyway. Well, I have only been reading for 4-5 hours and have learned a lot already. It does not make my desires go away but, is helping with my self esteem.

I really appreciate Oliviers analogy to wanting sex with another man, it seems to put many things in perspective. The Sensory issues posted by Hopeternal is relevant also.

I congratulate all those posting here in these long relationships for not giving up sooner. Perhaps now knowing what is happening can allow other changes to be made to save the relationships. Though for most of us I believe there are many other factors than just the lack of desire from our partners.

Well enough for now. I hope to post more soon, just wanted to show support to those working on their relationships.

[n44ww]

I really tried to make sense of the previous post but couldn't.

A marriage is an agreement between two people that they'd rather be together than separate. If at least one of those people doesn't feel that way anymore, then there's no real marriage left.

I have had--and still am having, but that's another awful story--the experience of having had a long involvement with a sexual. I'm asexual. I can see NO way that sexualhubby's situation can be likened to assisting someone who's suffered a stroke. In fact, my ex-partner/barely friend has indeed suffered a stroke and I'm helping him but am certainly not attempting to "reward" his behavior, nor is he expecting that. Sexualhubby and everyone else has the right and the responsibility to make their own decisions based on what they think is right, not on someone else's idea of what a "growth experience" would be.

All marriages have ups and downs. Each person's reaction to those ups and downs determines their fate. If you chose to let what happens drive a wedge between you, "then there's no real marriage left". However, if you choose to learn from what life throws at you, adjust and try again, you will grow, mature, develop wisdom and even grow closer, having worked together to overcome the odds.

The key thing is that each person must chose to make marriage work after each conflict arises and not give up. A marriage shouldn't be like a movie, where if you don't like it, you get up and leave. There should be an underlying commitment that is the glue that holds the marriage together through the tough times. Otherwise, marriage as a whole couldn't possibly last upwards of 50 years.

In talking about stroke, I was attempting to provide an analogy to highlight the psycological realities of life. While people generally don't psycoanalyze each of their actions and reactions, the fact remains that their actions do in fact have a direct impact on those around them. Simply put, if person #1 makes an effort and person #2 responds in a positive way, then person #1's actions have been reinforced. Just like they used to talk about in Psycology class. Whether you recognize it or not, this is a fundamental, scientifically proven fact of life. So, how this applies to SexualHubby is as follows: SexualHubbyWife changes her behavior from asexual to sexual. If SexualHubby responds to these changes by saying he likes it, by responding positively, whatever, then SexualHubbyWife will probably, unconsciously make the connection between her new sexual behavior and SexualHubby's positive, reinforcing response and she will probably continue her sexual behavior. If, however, SexualHubby's response was to run from the house and slam the door, SexualHubbyWife would probably draw the conclusion that her actions were not appreciated by SexualHubby. And would probably decide that sexual behavior by her was not appreciated by SexualHubby. And would probably decide to stop that behavior.

I hope that is clearer than my last post.

[SexualHubby]

I agree with what you are saying...problem is we're not just responders of stimuli like animals are- we have a brain and a heart and feelings that either help or interfere. I guess in my case, they are interfering right now and I don't know how to settle my heart or make it feel any differently. It's not so much that I want to run and slam the door (I haven't yet), but each time the door is open, I have a hard time jumping through it with joy. I have tried...it doesn't feel right and I end up being disappointed (as does she, at this point)...but mostly with myself as my wife is trying. Can a heart be changed through continued action? I don't know. If you don't feel it now and haven't for years, will you ever feel it again? I don't know.

[n44ww]

You are right. Humans make things complicated!

Perhaps it is like being in a relationship where the spouse has cheated - your feelings have been put through a meat grinder and you are reluctant/afraid to give it another try, because you may end up in the meat grinder again. I know some people can forgive and move forward. I have to give them a lot of credit. I hope I could/can.

One thought would be to brace yourself and give it a try with your wife. Might be the hardest thing you ever do. But it might help you to try, even if things don't work, because it might help you prepare for your next relationship. You will need to work through a lot of emotions, etc. before any future relationship will work. Got to clear out all of that old baggage or you'll be risking failure in the future. The divorced people I know either define themselves as walking wounded and divorce becomes the center of their life or they find a way to move on and chalk up divorce to just another life experience. The latter folks seem to be the most healthy ones (and the ones I prefer to be around!)

Food for thought.

[AVENCakes]

At the end of the summer 2007, our anniversary was coming up and I made plans to really splurge and take her to a resort for the weekend where she would be pampered with massages, facials, etc. - all things that she loves. This was very expensive but it was our 20 year anniversary and we were working towards rekindling our spark. At the resort, my wife seemed to glow! She was truly in heaven. I wined and dined her- gave her every luxury I could think of- even rented the best suite they had. Then on the night of our anniversary after going to a very sheik piano bar, and having drinks, all the while holding hands like two teenagers in love- we went back to our room. I thought this was going to be it! I don't know why but I had imagined there would be lingerie, candles, soft music, etc. and of course, long, slow love-making. Instead, once she was in our room, she said she was tired- quickly got into bed and turned the lights off and rolled over to go to bed. I was left speechless and I laid in our large, cruel bed and cried quietly to myself. The next morning's drive back to our home (2 1/2 hours) was in total silence. Looking back on the events of that night- where I was rejected once again, but this time after much effort had been made to rekindle our spark- I can truly say was when my "spark for her was completely extinguished."

I can imagine I'd be clamoring for divorce as well after a night like that. And as you said....no kissing, hardly any hugging....not even any snuggling at night before going to sleep. This may just be her asexuality, but, if she does love you as she says, she could still do better to express it in terms that you understand. The little things like hugs and kisses and cuddles...they all add to the picture, too.

She probably had a good idea of exactly what was coming, and as happy as she was- as soon as they got to the room she knew that she couldn't stand to let such a perfect day be ruined by something like sex, and didn't want to do anything to get his hopes up. A lot of asexuals aren't comfortable offering physical affection because it might be translated as "I'm in the mood". That ends poorly for everyone. The asexual has to reject the person they love again and see the hurt it puts them through, and the affection that they were enjoying was just ruined because of it. The sexual gets confused because they thought they were reading things right so it hurts even worse that they think the person is saying "I want it" and they still get rejected.

A lot of asexuals love affection, but if they reach the point in relationships where every kiss or compliment or gesture is interpreted as "you know what would be good now? Sex." by a desperate sexual, the affection gets pretty damn bitter for everyone.

[n44ww]

Here's where I get baffled: how do asexuals and sexuals ever connect and decide to get married? I suppose if there is no premarital sex, then all would go well until the wedding night, when everyone would be in for a horrendous rude awakening. Of course, if there's no consumation, then the marriage could be annulled, but some sort of deception must be going on or a total lack of awareness of ones feelings on the part of one or both.

In my case, though, there was some premarital sex. She seemed somewhat prudish, which I chalked up to her religious upbringing and the fact that we weren't married. She seemed perfectly willing - there was no duress. But her enjoyment wasn't anything like what I felt or that other women seemed to fell when I was with them. This is where I figured I was doing something wrong, but try as I might, I could never figure out what she liked. But it did seem like she disliked just about everything, over time. In time, her goal seemed to be to get it all over with and do something (anything) else. Which felt like rejection to me, of course, and certainly not reciprocated love. I've wondered from time to time if this is how it feel to have a one night stand or be with a prostitute (no emotional involvement - just sex and nothing else). It makes me feel totally empty. Because if there is this cold rejection in lovemaking, then the whole concept of her being in love with me is in question. Yes, she says she is in love with me and she demonstrates this by the little things she does, but there is a clear limit on which demonstrations of love are acceptable to her. And rather than sharing my love via lovemaking, she stoically endures as long as she can and then 'lovingly' says "are you done yet?"

It's not that lovemaking is the only thing that matters in the relationship - it's just the only thing that doesn't work at all. And then, really, what's the difference between having a close friend as a roommate and being married? If there is no sex, then there will be no kids. So then why bother getting married? What's the point?

In our case, it seems to turn into her being in total control - what is acceptable and what isn't, with her calling the shots. Doesn't seem very well balanced, not much like a marriage or even a partnership. Frustrating.

Sorry, just bitter tonight. The comment that comes to mind is something I think that Dr. Phil said once. Paraphrased, it was something like - If you think not having sex is OK, just ask the person who isn't getting any". One final thought for the asexuals, it isn't about sex, it's about lovemaking. It's supposed to be a sharing, two-way street, where you do things for each other (and no one else!) that demonstrates your love for each other. It's really supposed to feel good and you should enjoy it. Otherwise. people would never do it and the human race would come to an end! Or asexuals would then not reproduce and there just wouldn't any around.

[Galen]

Probably be better to open a new thread, or there may be many old ones on the subject we have not discovered.

We did not have premarital sex. Our wedding night was the first time and was actually really bad for her (condom, no lube, size differences, poor knowledge all around). Actually the only and last time we tried a condom, she had a diaphragm so the condom was probably overkill. So the honeymoon I spent reading books at the resort we were at. We married at 25 so my labido is not super high and I was always shy with girls. So now it is 19years and about once a month on average.

I have gone thru years of being told I was just too horny etc.... and also 19 years thinking if I could just excite her properly she would enjoy it enough to initiate it and return my desire for her.

Now finding this forum, I understand mentally that she won't ever desire me in that way.

Well so much more to write, and time to start my own thread even if it is duplicate of so many others.

So n44ww I believe what I have read so far (including me), it is many that had little or no sex before marriage. And I agree I had a few friends (male) that I was/am much closer with but did not marry, I married for a long term friendship, family and sex.

It seems many times the best way to ruin a friendship is to marry.

[AVENCakes]

Here's where I get baffled: how do asexuals and sexuals ever connect and decide to get married? I suppose if there is no premarital sex, then all would go well until the wedding night, when everyone would be in for a horrendous rude awakening. Of course, if there's no consumation, then the marriage could be annulled, but some sort of deception must be going on or a total lack of awareness of ones feelings on the part of one or both.

It's the latter, from what I can tell. I've seen it one of two ways: 1. You think you're normal, everyone is faking the sexual interest to appear normal just like you are. How could anyone be so interested in something so dull? 2. You think you can become normal. If you find a person that you truly love with all your heart you'll start to like it. If you have sex enough you'll like it. If you try XYZ... you'll like it.

And on the part of the sexual, with premarital sex or without, they assume it's something else. Like you did- it was her religious upbringing. She's not asexual, she's just uncomfortable due to the fact we're sinning. Lots of asexuals do it both ways.

And rather than sharing my love via lovemaking, she stoically endures as long as she can and then 'lovingly' says "are you done yet?"

How is that not sharing your love? She's enduring something that she's clearly not comfortable with out of love for you. This is what I don't get about sexuals. Asexuals are putting themselves through something that can be physically and emotionally taxing, which they have no interest in doing, and all because they love their partner that much. How is sex not an act of love there?

And then, really, what's the difference between having a close friend as a roommate and being married? If there is no sex, then there will be no kids. So then why bother getting married? What's the point?

Well, it's nice to know that all your girlfriends are just fuckbuddies to you. Did you just call them for booty calls when you were feeling pent up then hit the bar to hit on chicks together? Or is it that you give your friends chocolates, massages, cute little gifts that show you're thinking about them, kiss them goodbye nad give them silly little pet names? Do you gaze into all of your friends' eyes lovingly? Because if that's the case you might want to rethink your definition of friendship, and maybe the reason your wife is so cold is because you're emotionally cheating on her with everyone you're friends with.

And if you think I'm completely off-base here, then you clearly know the difference between marriage and roommates.

Marriage isn't about having kids, or about having sex, or about property, or anything else. It's about loving someone, it's about wanting to be with them for the rest of your life, about wanting to wake up every morning and have the first thing you see be their face, about wanting to make this person the most important person in your life in a way that everyone- law, deities, everyone- has to accept.

Any idiot can get knocked up, you can get pregnant with a one-night stand by a guy who's name you don't know, or whose face you barely even remember because you were drunk off your ass. Clearly you don't get married just to have kids, clearly having kids isn't about being in love. Having kids isn't the point of marriage. If it was, then people who are sterile wouldn't be allowed to get married. There'd be a law in place that if you didn't have a child after X years the marriage is annulled. But that'll never happen because people who don't want children can choose to get married, and people who want children can also choose not to.

[Sally]

2. You think you can become normal. If you find a person that you truly love with all your heart you'll start to like it. If you have sex enough you'll like it. If you try XYZ... you'll like it.

That. Most sexuals, I guess, find it hard to understand that some asexuals would keep trying something we don't like. If they'd just think of it in terms of what RD says above, they'd get it. Then those of us who do have sexual relationships with sexuals might hear a little less of the betrayal/rejection/you-don't-love-me stuff.

Sorry, I just had an encounter with a long-time...person...who I thought understood what I'd told him 2 years ago but apparently wants to revert to the "betrayal" script in his mind.

[Pamcakes]

Sorry, I just had an encounter with a long-time...person...who I thought understood what I'd told him 2 years ago but apparently wants to revert to the "betrayal" script in his mind.

Hugs, Sally. I'm so sorry you had to have that experience.

Poor silly twit sounds like he can't see anything beyond the end of his own nose.

I'm sure you don't need to hear this, but in case you do; you didn't betray him. Not for a moment. You made the difficult decision to be true to yourself and your boundaries, and it's really a shame - for him, as well - that he can't understand that.

*hugs and *

P.

[Sally]

Sorry, I just had an encounter with a long-time...person...who I thought understood what I'd told him 2 years ago but apparently wants to revert to the "betrayal" script in his mind.

Hugs, Sally. I'm so sorry you had to have that experience.

Poor silly twit sounds like he can't see anything beyond the end of his own nose.

I'm sure you don't need to hear this, but in case you do; you didn't betray him. Not for a moment. You made the difficult decision to be true to yourself and your boundaries, and it's really a shame - for him, as well - that he can't understand that.

*hugs and *

P.

Thank you, Pam. :( I do need to hear that. Sometimes I wish I'd just not tried to explain anything and let it limp onward until a natural stop which, given his age, it probably would have. I should have known it would be difficult for him because he's alays been quite macho.

[daveb]

2. You think you can become normal. If you find a person that you truly love with all your heart you'll start to like it. If you have sex enough you'll like it. If you try XYZ... you'll like it.

That was my experience, too. Now I know about asexuality and understand myself better.

Sorry, I just had an encounter with a long-time...person...who I thought understood what I'd told him 2 years ago but apparently wants to revert to the "betrayal" script in his mind.

Sorry to hear that, Sally! Hugs and ....

[n44ww]

How is that not sharing your love? She's enduring something that she's clearly not comfortable with out of love for you. This is what I don't get about sexuals. Asexuals are putting themselves through something that can be physically and emotionally taxing, which they have no interest in doing, and all because they love their partner that much. How is sex not an act of love there?

Absolutely right, I agree. It must be an act of love. But when she lies there wincing/grimacing (clearly not what I want for her) and wanting it to be over, I guess that is love, but it just doesn't sound right. Who wants her to go through that? It makes me feel like I'm a rapist or something. So that pretty much kills the mood. And "lovemaking" it certainly isn't. It's more like some kind of submission/dominance thing that I am really not into.

And then, really, what's the difference between having a close friend as a roommate and being married? If there is no sex, then there will be no kids. So then why bother getting married? What's the point?

I should have said, that if sex is not going to be part of the equation, then having a close friend as a roommate would be exactly the same as being married, so why bother marrying? Marriage essentially 'legalizes' sexual relations between two people and legally prevents any kids from being born as 'bastards'.