Venting

[AllyCat]

Warning: cranky, self-centered pissing and moaning ahead.

Had a really weird argument with a colleague last night about my drag hobby. I mentioned that I am way hotter when dressed as a man, as measured by both my sexual self-confidence the amount of positive attention I get. She started psychoanalyzing me! Why, she asked, do I feel the need to dress in drag? Uh, I dunno, because I can? Because I look good? Because it does for me what short skirts and fishnets are supposed to do, but never have?

She then proceeded to lecture me about how dressing in drag was not subversive of the patriarchy! And I said, "Yes, but I'm not trying to subvert the patriarchy. Going out dancing is sexy; political activism is not sexy; ergo going out dancing is not political activism."

This was, however, not enough. Apparently I reinforce the patriarchy because classifying myself as masculine in any way is a statement that only masculine people have value. Since I am biologically female, I am honor-bound to present as femme all the damn time. I tried to ask whether men were allowed to be gender-variant, but she was having none of it. According to her theory of things, the patriarchy is reinforced any time anybody does anything classified as masculine.

It's so weird that people feel this need to argue about what brand of woman is the best. I've got no problem with other people presenting as femme, and I'm happy to stand up to anyone who does have a problem with it. Heck, two of my favorite articles of clothing are a bright pink jacket with embroidered flowers and a purple shirt with sequins; tell me that's butch and I'll laugh in your face. These things are personal choices, and mine does not negate other people's. Anyway, sexuality and gender are basically a black box; certain inputs lead to certain outputs, but it's anybody's guess as to how it all works inside. How could such a confusing, epistemically accessible, and ultimately politically irrelevant thing possibly be open to moral criticism?

People never cease to amaze me. I wish they'd do it in a good way for once.

[Næt.]

By acknowledging that differently-shaped rags are for diffrently-shaped genetalia, doesn't she also re-inforce the partriachy?

[Kelly]

Hey, Cat.

Since I am biologically female, I am honor-bound to present as femme all the damn time.

Bah! Some peeps might think so, but not me--I don't buy that. 8)

[AllyCat]

By acknowledging that differently-shaped rags are for diffrently-shaped genetalia, doesn't she also re-inforce the partriachy?

Yeah, that's what I would have thought too. I don't mind her wearing dresses (any gender presentation can be treated as either reinforcing or challenging the patriarchy depending on how you interpret it), but requiring other people to wear dresses based on their genitalia seems kinda dodgy to me.

Hey, Cat.

Since I am biologically female, I am honor-bound to present as femme all the damn time.

Bah! Some peeps might think so, but not me--I don't buy that. 8)

Thanks! That's probably because you are not in the grip of a weird theory. 8)

[daveb]

And what about some of us guys who would like to wear dresses sometimes? :D

I like it when women dress in a feminine style, but I would never tell any woman they had to. It should be an individual's choice. I am pro-choice and pro-personal freedom. :D

[Charlieee]

Too much Judith Butler? haha

No, it's really sad. People will educate themselves on the kyriachy and the sociology of gender and queer theory and all that, and it turns into this huge cloud of academia that makes them forget that these are real people's gender identities and presentations that they're talking about! Ugh.

I think your friend has a lot of rethinking to do...

[Wayne Turner]

What kind of a person tells you `what you should or shouldn`t wear` - they`re not the boss and even if they were, I would get them done for harassment or something along those lines.

I don`t blame you for venting out like that. As a guy, I completely understand the need to `get it out of your system`. I know I would if someone I worked with, had a go at me like that. Personally, I am not bothered about `who wears what`. If you want to wear this or that, then it`s entirely your choice. But I honestly think that she`s attacking your style of fashion / against the work place etiquette. Which I might add is changing all the time - maybe she just refuses to accept that kind of change in her life, which would easily account for her stereotypical behaviour...

I personally think that she`s just got it in for people, who dress differently. Sounds to me like she is trying to control the environment that she works in. And that by someone who dresses differently, will `upset` the entire working environment for everyone else, thus upsetting her! You shouldn`t sweat it, you will always get people who are ar*****es where ever you work.

But hey, that`s people who are just old-fashioned who can`t deal with stuff like this. Jeez, we`re in the 21st Century. The problem is time - no one wants to accept that times are changing, that trends are changing and that people are changing as well.

Just out of curiousity - how old is this colleague of yours? I`m hedging my bets, that she is mid-40`s or older? I bet that they live and breathe their job, they don`t have anything else besides it and thus, they want to control every square inch of the place!!!

[Kelly]

And what about some of us guys who would like to wear dresses sometimes? :D

Awesome and way cool. 8)

[thylacine]

When I was in Scotland... I saw lotsa guys in skirts.

(Sorry... couldn't help it.)

[AllyCat]

You guys are all so... reasonable. I like it.

Just out of curiousity - how old is this colleague of yours? I`m hedging my bets, that she is mid-40`s or older? I bet that they live and breathe their job, they don`t have anything else besides it and thus, they want to control every square inch of the place!!!

She's in her mid-30s. Charlieee has it exactly right; she's just read too much theory and it's made her brain turn a bit gloppy. It's not so much a problem of wanting to be a petty tyrant as a problem of being too sheltered from the real-world consequences of what you say and do. I work in academia in the humanities; this is a common job hazard. (I can't even work out the real world consequences of the thing I am writing now, so I'm a little nervous about throwing stones here.)

And what about some of us guys who would like to wear dresses sometimes? :D

Awesome and way cool. 8)

Seconded!

[daveb]

And what about some of us guys who would like to wear dresses sometimes? :D

Awesome and way cool. 8)

Seconded!

Thanks, Kelly and AllyCat! That made my day! :D

[thecynicalromantic]

As much as I intellectually understand that no ideology is so pure it won't attract nutjobs and idiots, and that the downside of feminism as "women being humans" is that humans are fucking stupid, I simply do not get how someone could possibly understand feminist theory enough to even *pronounce* the word "patriarchy" and not understand that TELLING OTHER WOMEN WHAT TO WEAR JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE WOMEN is one of the single LEAST feminist things a human can do that doesn't involve physical violence.

Honestly, next time someone tells you some shit like that (whether it's that women shouldn't dress "like men", or that Real Feminists Don't Wear Skirts, or whatever), just fucking PUNCH THEM. Dialogue is for people who understand what words mean when they read them.

One minor disagreement: political activism can too be sexy. ;)

[Sally]

Just out of curiousity - how old is this colleague of yours? I`m hedging my bets, that she is mid-40`s or older? I bet that they live and breathe their job, they don`t have anything else besides it and thus, they want to control every square inch of the place!!!

That's kind of stereotyping, as far as age and lifestyle. Young people (and I consider 30s people young, as do most people) can be just as much controlling pains in the ass as older people.

[C.nick]

When I was in Scotland... I saw lotsa guys in skirts.

(Sorry... couldn't help it.)

Oooo! I am going to have to kill you with my claymore now!

CRUACHAN! :twisted:

[Sammie]

Honestly, next time someone tells you some shit like that (whether it's that women shouldn't dress "like men", or that Real Feminists Don't Wear Skirts, or whatever), just fucking PUNCH THEM. Dialogue is for people who understand what words mean when they read them.

Now, that wouldn't be very feminine, now would it? ;)

Put the video up on youtube, will you? :D

And what about some of us guys who would like to wear dresses sometimes? :D

Awesome and way cool. 8)

Seconded!

Thanks, Kelly and AllyCat! That made my day! :D

Totally absolutely complety thirded!

[cosmia]

You can take our skirts, but you can never take our FREEDOM!

(Seriously, the freedom to dress as I like is a priority for me, if I was in Ally Cat's place I would be, er, less than civil with that colleague. Raaagh! Restricting the freedoms of other women is crappy feminism. )

[Kelly]

When I was in Scotland... I saw lotsa guys in skirts.

When I was in Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa, I saw lots and lots of guys wearing skirts. In Samoa especially, I saw very very few men in pants. In Samoa, and I think also in the kingdom of Tonga, the school uniforms for boys was a skirt and shirt, and was nearly identical to that for the girls.

[mad_scientist]

Warning: cranky, self-centered pissing and moaning ahead.

Had a really weird argument with a colleague last night about my drag hobby. I mentioned that I am way hotter when dressed as a man, as measured by both my sexual self-confidence the amount of positive attention I get. She started psychoanalyzing me! Why, she asked, do I feel the need to dress in drag? Uh, I dunno, because I can? Because I look good? Because it does for me what short skirts and fishnets are supposed to do, but never have?

She then proceeded to lecture me about how dressing in drag was not subversive of the patriarchy! And I said, "Yes, but I'm not trying to subvert the patriarchy. Going out dancing is sexy; political activism is not sexy; ergo going out dancing is not political activism."

This was, however, not enough. Apparently I reinforce the patriarchy because classifying myself as masculine in any way is a statement that only masculine people have value. Since I am biologically female, I am honor-bound to present as femme all the damn time. I tried to ask whether men were allowed to be gender-variant, but she was having none of it. According to her theory of things, the patriarchy is reinforced any time anybody does anything classified as masculine.

It's so weird that people feel this need to argue about what brand of woman is the best. I've got no problem with other people presenting as femme, and I'm happy to stand up to anyone who does have a problem with it. Heck, two of my favorite articles of clothing are a bright pink jacket with embroidered flowers and a purple shirt with sequins; tell me that's butch and I'll laugh in your face. These things are personal choices, and mine does not negate other people's. Anyway, sexuality and gender are basically a black box; certain inputs lead to certain outputs, but it's anybody's guess as to how it all works inside. How could such a confusing, epistemically accessible, and ultimately politically irrelevant thing possibly be open to moral criticism?

People never cease to amaze me. I wish they'd do it in a good way for once.

Ugh... that kind of "feminist" does more damage to feminism than the patriarchy does. It's that sort of view that discourages people from taking feminism seriously because the loud ones make us look like a bunch of super-matriarchal man-haters.

We want people to be free to be people, correct? We want respect and opportunities regardless of gender, NOT because we're female, correct? Some people wear stuff and do stuff because they happen to like it; not everything is a battle.

[Omnes et Nihil]

Too much Judith Butler? haha

No, it's really sad. People will educate themselves on the kyriachy and the sociology of gender and queer theory and all that, and it turns into this huge cloud of academia that makes them forget that these are real people's gender identities and presentations that they're talking about! Ugh.

I think your friend has a lot of rethinking to do...

Actually, Judith Butler did talk about drag as being subversive-- or at least potentially so.

On another note, I suspect this friend's line of thinking might have gone something like this:

"masculine drag = repudiation of femininity" AND "repudiation of femininity = support for patriarchy"

THEREFORE "masculine drag supports patriarchy"

Unfortunately, the first premise is problematic for many reasons, not to mention simply false.

(Just thought it worthwhile to point out... There is a history behind this argument... that pertains to some of the second-wave essentialist (cultural-ish) feminist lines of thinking to do with men and women being essentially different creatures; and that maleness and masculinity are inherently destructive and femaleness/femininity is inherently wonderful and caring and good etc. It's a little more complicated than that, and there are reasons why those beliefs came to be popular in the first place, and reasons why they aren't anymore. I think there are a few experienced feminists around here who were around and kicking some political feminist activist ass, so they could probably offer more insight than I could. The point is your friend seems to be picking up on *something*, even if the result is terribly misguided to the point of dictating your clothing.)

Now, if hypothetically, you dressed in drag because you simply hated all things female and/or feminine, then I can see where she'd think you were supporting patriarchy. Patriarchy unfortunately is one of those massive monsters powerful enough to re-appropriate just about anything... so doing drag or not doing drag could both support patriarchy under the right set of circumstances.

Having said that... there is nothing empowering about demanding a specific version of womanness, femininity or female existence.

So yeah. Patriarchy sucks, and is darn devious.

And yes, just about anything can be political. If you make anyone at all uncomfortable when you do drag, or if you put yourself into an empowered position, then I'd say you're doing something political whether you like it or not. Politics are tricky that way. Even resisting your friend's dictates about your clothing choices is a political act of some kind. You're challenging her ideas about gender and patriarchy... albeit neither deliberately nor with profound powers of transformation.

Bah. Just carry on having good drag fun. The politics will be what they will be. You can't avoid them, but you don't have to yield to them. And they don't need to get in the way of good drag fun... or venting when needed.

[ily]

One minor disagreement: political activism can too be sexy. ;)

Indeed!

[lloorren]

It disappoints me when people bastardize the name of feminism. Happens too often.

[AVENCakes]

Ah, psycho-"activists". Where would we be without you?

That would annoy the hell out of me. Nobody should be forced to dress however just because of what's between their legs. How does it support the patriarchy to subvert gender roles and insist that there's nothing inherently-male about "male" clothing, but it subverts the patriarchy to insist that women have to wear "female" clothing and be feminine?

[ChaliceFlame]

I disagree with your friend. Patriarchy is about lack of choices, rigid gender roles and of course superiority of the male gender.

Your choice to dress traditionally masculine is your choice and does not support patriarchy.