Being a not-so-manly transman

[Shinnok]

I think I've ranted a few times on AVEN about how I'm gender confused a lot of the time. But I'm kind of curious if these things would still be considered to be Female-to-Male

I've always wished I was born a biological male. Ever since I was 6 I wanted to be a boy. When I found out that a person could be transgendered I was really happy because I had found a label for me. And that I wasn't the only one like this. But when I go online and hear of how other transmen live their lives and how they act they just don't seem similar to me. They're all really masculine acting and not to mention looking. They all have short hair and all dress the same. I could go on. Maybe I just haven't seen many other transmen but that was just the ones I've seen. I don't feel I'm really similar to them because what most of them worry about I don't really care about. Like binding, packing, deep voice, passing, ect. I can't pass at all. I might slightly pass as androgynous but as soon as I say something people know from my voice. I could never ever cut my hair short. I love having long hair and that's one of the things that keeps me from passing. I know it'd be easier to look like a guy with short hair but I don't wanna cut it and plus my parents wouldn't let me anyway. I don't bind because uh....I'm too big chested to bind. Even if I had a binder it wouldn't make a difference. My chest would still show enough to give it away. But all of this stuff that lets everyone know I'm female bodied I don't care about. So what if they think I'm female? The only people I would care about knowing my gender identity would be my friends. Screw the public. I think I rambled too much. I'm not as masculine as other transguys. I don't wanna be that masculine. I like looking exactly the way I look right now. The only thing I'm unhappy with is my chest and my voice. If my voice sounded like a guy's and I had no breasts then I'd keep everything else the same. I don't wanna go on T (testosterone) because I don't wanna start growing a beard and all of that other stuff. It's not necessary to me. I don't wanna screw with my body too much. I act really androgynous instead of really manly. I paint my nails, wear eye make-up, ect. I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if I'm so un-manly that I don't fit into the FtM label at all and rather something else.

Kind of a gender rant but yeah. Make any sense?

~Vincent

[KayleeSaeihr]

Screw what other's think. Your identity is yours. I have a similar conundrum in that I want to be female, but I wouldn't the most feminine female. Quite tomboyish in fact.

So in my opinion I don't there's anything wrong at all with the way you identify or anything :)

[Shinnok]

Screwing what others think is the best idea..but it's hard to do sometimes when it seems like everyone thinks the same way about a certain thing. But even still I agree

[woo]

Oh man, I thought you were a guy.

Saeihrs right, who cares? Those who care don't matter and those who matter won't care.

I have a friend who's an androgynous homosexual who has a big chest too, and even her loose fitting shirts don't help. She wears guy shoes, guy shirts, guy hats, and she sags her skinny jeans, and the way she walks makes her seem like a guy. No honestly, when I first met her I thought, Wow he's cute, I was physically attracted to her, but then when I realized she was a girl, it went away. The way she talks is also kind of guy-ish but she definitely sounds like a girl, unfortunately, (her tone of voice is that of a guys, aggressive and quick, but the sound of it is soft and high) so she basically has the same problems as you. She's lesbian though, and she thinks she's a guy, she knows it and everyone else around her doesn't mind. Her ex, is one of those girly lesbians, you know, the slutty ones, yeah you could definitely tell which one wore the pants in the relationship. lol

So yeah, I don't know if that helps or anything...but you make perfect sense!

[GhostsInThisMachine]

I'm like that too - I just want to get rid of my breasts and look androgynous as possible and I'd be happy. I don't care what the public think of me - my friends know that this is important to me, even if they don't fully understand how I can be neutrois. My partners believed me when I told them my gender. That's all that matters to me, not some stranger on the street who I'll never see again.

[Fi_Loubet]

Vega, I love the 'female bodied' expression you used; it really resonated with me.

I'm 'male-bodied' (I've totally just stolen it for myself!) and though this doesn't match my gender; I don't really care.

[Elliott Ford]

First things first, the best advice anyone ever gave me about being trans is this:

There is no "one true way" to be trans

That was my adopted brother, one of the most feminine men on the planet - and he's transsexual.

I'm a trans man. I know damn well I'm a boy. I play with dolls and wear a rather inordinate amount of jewelry, occasionally i like to cross-dress as a girl. I'm not interested in especially "male" things, other than my obsession with maths. All in all, my life would go a heck of a lot easier if i was content to live as a woman, as a woman i'd barely be considered odd, as a man i'm thoroughly eccentric, possibly even bizzare. But i'm lucky enough to know other trans people who aren't strereotypical of their gender, nor do they intend to be.

I'm not interested in being especially muscly, having a penis or growing facial hair. But i want my breasts gone and i want to be treated like the male being i am.

You are not alone in this Vincent. for you. Love William

[green pumpkin]

To hell with gender stereotypes, act in whatever ways you feel comfortable.

Is always easier to be like everybody else but in the end is not worth it ... "playing it safe can cause a lot of damage in the long run".

[Elliott Ford]

Also, see this about me -

this

I've gotten more clear on my identity since then. I'm a boy even if it turns out that the only thing that makes me a boy is that i say i am I'm male because i can't be happy otherwise.

[mort paradis]

Just worry about changing the parts that you aren't happy about. You really wouldn't be the first androgynous ftm, and I've also talked to feminine ftm's as well. Part of the problem with the ftm community is all this pressure to be masculine and to be stereotypically male. For the past four years I've been hitting against that problem. The way I look at it, if a bio-male can do all this stuff, so can an ftm!

For the voice, you can do voice training to get a deeper voice and to learn how to talk in a more "masculine" manner. It may not be as easy as taking T, but it is completely possible. You can save up money for top surgery, and find the right gender therapist that will understand you, and give you the letter for top surgery without pressuring you to take T.

Also, here is some advice that might help later down the road.. this is something I told my roommate who is a butch transgirl: Butch women get mistaken for boys many times, so sometimes it isn't so much that you don't pass as a girl, it's that you pass as a butch. Change some words here and it's the same thing with androgynous guys and with feminine guys. Another way of saying it, if you had been with a male body instead you could still sometimes get mistaken for a boy because you have long hair, wear eye make-up and earrings.

I hope this makes some sense >_<

[daveb]

I would suggest to just be yourself. Or at least be honest with yourself and accept things as they are. I know, much easier said than done, and I'm not so good at following that ideal myself.

Seems most communities have expectations about how people should look or act. If you don't quite conform to those expectations some members will think you don't belong. But the best people won't care. If you're a good person they'll enjoy you for who you are.

I am a crossdresser who rarely tries to "pass", and probably couldn't in real life anyway. I don't use a female name or female pronouns for myself. I feel like I'm more like the opposite of a tomboy, in that I'm still a guy, but like some "girly" things. I don't act feminine (whatever that is), and the few people I have told in real life about my interests in this area didn't seem to have any suspicions. In every day life I look and dress male (t-shirts, jeans, etc.), although I do like to keep my hair long and I wear earrings (but not make-up - mostly because it gets too hot around here for it), it's not to the point where anyone has mistaken me for female. I don't push things very far in public or daily life because I am very averse to drawing attention to myself (and I'm sure wearing skirts or makeup would do that! ha!). So I'm content to be that side of myself in private and the rest of myself in public.

[GirlInside]

I'm a trans man. I know damn well I'm a boy. I play with dolls and wear a rather inordinate amount of jewelry, occasionally i like to cross-dress as a girl. I'm not interested in especially "male" things, other than my obsession with maths. All in all, my life would go a heck of a lot easier if i was content to live as a woman, as a woman i'd barely be considered odd, as a man i'm thoroughly eccentric, possibly even bizzare. But i'm lucky enough to know other trans people who aren't strereotypical of their gender, nor do they intend to be.

I'm not interested in being especially muscly, having a penis or growing facial hair. But i want my breasts gone and i want to be treated like the male being i am.

[sound of circuits frying]

I just can't seem to wrap my mind around that. I'm quite feminine and very strongly female in spite of having a male body, and I would love to have a female body.

I'm curious: what exactly is being male about for you?

[Shinnok]

Lately I've been thinking that I might have slapped the FtM label on myself just to get away from being labeled as female. I lack other things that other transmen have. When I really "truly" think of my internal gender I think of something genderless. My body still doesn't match my internal gender but I don't think I would've been happy being a bio-male either. I mean..sometimes I still wish I was a bio-male but lately I've been thinking that even if I was I still wouldn't have been happy

It's weird...maybe I'm Neutrois. And if I'm neutrois I can't go by "Vincent" anymore. Gah....maybe I'm thinking too much

[oneofthesun]

I think I've ranted a few times on AVEN about how I'm gender confused a lot of the time. But I'm kind of curious if these things would still be considered to be Female-to-Male

Maybe I just haven't seen many other transmen but that was just the ones I've seen. I don't feel I'm really similar to them because what most of them worry about I don't really care about. Like binding, packing, deep voice, passing, ect. I can't pass at all. I might slightly pass as androgynous but as soon as I say something people know from my voice.

~Vincent

Well, part of the definition of being ftm is that you care about passing as a man. And none of us pass at first because of the voice... You just have to accept the fact that people are going to realize the truth when you open your mouth.

I'm definitely not a manly transman and I know others who aren't. I think the problem you're seeing is that when you first start to transition you HAVE to overdo the machismo a little in order to pass. I think for the most part once they have the body to back up their claim of being male, most ftm's don't feel the need to act so hyper masculine. I have also seen ftm's with long hair, although since long hair is usually associated with females, even bioguys need very masculine features to pull it off.

There are some (not many) gender psychiatrists who will now let you transition only partway, to wherever you're comfortable, even if you don't completely identify as one gender or the other.

[Sammie]

Society has this strange idea that you have to look male to be male. fuck them.

You are who you choose to be, and how you look has nothing to do with it.

[Elliott Ford]

I'm a trans man. I know damn well I'm a boy. I play with dolls and wear a rather inordinate amount of jewelry, occasionally i like to cross-dress as a girl. I'm not interested in especially "male" things, other than my obsession with maths. All in all, my life would go a heck of a lot easier if i was content to live as a woman, as a woman i'd barely be considered odd, as a man i'm thoroughly eccentric, possibly even bizzare. But i'm lucky enough to know other trans people who aren't strereotypical of their gender, nor do they intend to be.

I'm not interested in being especially muscly, having a penis or growing facial hair. But i want my breasts gone and i want to be treated like the male being i am.

[sound of circuits frying]

I just can't seem to wrap my mind around that. I'm quite feminine and very strongly female in spite of having a male body, and I would love to have a female body.

I'm curious: what exactly is being male about for you?

I'll start with the completely true but equally unhelpful way that i see it - I know i'm a boy because i'm a boy.

What it is with the dolls and the jewelry is that they are what remained when i stopped doing the things i felt i had to do in order to "pass" as a girl.

I'll explain, i knew for years and years that i wasn't really a girl but i also knew deep inside of me that this was a Bad Thing and that no one should ever find out. So i did things to make myself more girl-like, growing my hair, wearing clothes i didn't really like, hanging around with lots of girls to try to absorb the feminine culture. this was all after my brother gave up on his dolls in lieu of Pokemon (that was the kind of family i grew up in) and i finally realised that maybe boys and girls were different. A quick survey showed that dolls were marketed as girls' toys and pokemon as boys' toys so i thought i had to pretend to be a girl if i wanted dolls. Combined with being a Bad Thing that must be kept Secret, i now had a reason to be a "girl", in order to make my needs and wants socially acceptable.

I only started wearing jewelry a few years ago. My jewelry isn't feminine. No sparkly chains, no gold, no dangly earrings, no diamonds, nothing flash at all. Gemstone pendants on black cords, mainly. Wooden beads, stone rings, the odd peice of silver. All carefully bought from a select few shops, either for their personal significance (I'm a witch, a Wiccan) or simply for the type of rock (I'm obsessed with haematite). I started wearing jewelry as part of "Operation Girl" but i now see the need to wear a bit of it as just part of me. It's something i don't want to give up in order to be a boy. I want to be the boy i am, not someone else's idea of what a boy should be.

I know that i'm male because i feel like a man. I should have been born in a male body and i believe that i would still have got the dolls and the jewelry (and the cars and the castle :) ) even if i had been. For me, being male can be about how comfortable i feel dressed in mens' clothes, how sure i've always been in my desire to be a father, how right it feels when someone calls me "he"...

As for looking more male-bodied, i want a Magic Button to make me instantly male-bodied. I'm not too obsessed with muscles as I think less muscly men are prettier, i'm not sure i want to have to trust my hands with a sharp blade near my face and the genatalia thing doesn't bother me much - but i think that's mainly because my parents never made a big deal about it - like i know some kids' parents do.

[KayleeSaeihr]

Behaviour does not a gender make.

Just because someone acts like a member of one gender and enjoys the pasttimes of that gender does not make them a member of that gender.

[oneofthesun]

As for looking more male-bodied, i want a Magic Button to make me instantly male-bodied. I'm not too obsessed with muscles as I think less muscly men are prettier, i'm not sure i want to have to trust my hands with a sharp blade near my face

I use an electric shaver. They never work quite as well but I don't care.

[Shinnok]

Society has this strange idea that you have to look male to be male. fuck them.

You are who you choose to be, and how you look has nothing to do with it.

Exactly. That's how I feel

oh and I canned the name Vincent. I'm still on the hunt for a name. I thought I decided on Vincent but I guess not. Oh well *headdesk*

[mad_scientist]

You probably encounter the overly butch transmen more often because they're more noticeable and grab more media attention, less masculine transmen may be exaggerating their male characteristics if they feel it helps them "qualify" more as men, and more masculine transmen probably feel more pressure to transition whereas less masculine ones might be able to fake being women slightly easier, and thus not be as visible (since transgendered people still experience discrimination in so many areas and thus many may be tempted to hide). All in all it's probably a false impression.

[GirlInside]

I started wearing jewelry as part of "Operation Girl" but i now see the need to wear a bit of it as just part of me. It's something i don't want to give up in order to be a boy. I want to be the boy i am, not someone else's idea of what a boy should be.

So why be a boy at all? I mean, gender is really about one's role in society. Neither my internal gender nor my biological sex mean anything when I'm alone.

Like it or not, men live under certain restrictions (guess how I know this). If you are to live as a man, you need to abide by these restrictions to be seen as male, which you say is important. I don't pay any attention to male rules (except when it's a matter of survival)--in fact, I often abide by the rules of femininity without even thinking of it, because it's just the way things are for me--and so people often see me the way they would see a genetic girl (and 2 out of 5 women mistake me for one even though I look very masculine).

I guess my question is, why is it so important to be seen as a man if you don't care what other people think?

[Elliott Ford]

I started wearing jewelry as part of "Operation Girl" but i now see the need to wear a bit of it as just part of me. It's something i don't want to give up in order to be a boy. I want to be the boy i am, not someone else's idea of what a boy should be.

So why be a boy at all? I mean, gender is really about one's role in society. Neither my internal gender nor my biological sex mean anything when I'm alone.

Like it or not, men live under certain restrictions (guess how I know this). If you are to live as a man, you need to abide by these restrictions to be seen as male, which you say is important. I don't pay any attention to male rules (except when it's a matter of survival)--in fact, I often abide by the rules of femininity without even thinking of it, because it's just the way things are for me--and so people often see me the way they would see a genetic girl (and 2 out of 5 women mistake me for one even though I look very masculine).

I guess my question is, why is it so important to be seen as a man if you don't care what other people think?

The kind of people i socialise with, boys wear jewelry. I hide my necklaces when i go out "in public" and wear less rings, generally masculinise my appearance if i'm going anywhere alone. Like you said, sometimes it's a matter of survival.

I'm learning to care lessabout whether strangers percieve me as a man or a butch woman (it makes things awkward but i guess i'll get used to it). I want to look like a man because that's what i'm supposed to look like, i want to live as the boy i was born to be. I accept that that means being myself more with friends than in public - but everybody has that, don't they? I'm a genderqueer transman but i know that my idiosyncracies don't necessarily need to be publicly displayed - if i am to survive as a man. I'm a student, right now i can get away with looking and acting a bit "odd", other lads my age are the same. other lads grow out of it - so i will too. at least in public.

I just can't live as a woman. for me, that would be hell (has been hell) and i can't go back now that i know that i'm allowed to be the guy i am. I'd truly rather die.

[Kelly]

You do remind me of Indiana Jones a bit. Actually, I remind myself of that, too.

*dons hat and travels from Tonga to Samoa after visiting Vanuatu*

You seem cool just as is, dude. We should go on an adventure sometime.

I can't go by "Vincent" anymore.

No more Vincent?! :o

Then, I dub thee, Indiana.

[Shinnok]

You do remind me of Indiana Jones a bit. Actually, I remind myself of that, too.

*dons hat and travels from Tonga to Samoa after visiting Vanuatu*

You seem cool just as is, dude. We should go on an adventure sometime.

I can't go by "Vincent" anymore.

No more Vincent?! :o

Then, I dub thee, Indiana.

D: That would be cool but...*goes to see if it's a valid name*

Holy crap it is >.> http://www.babynames.com/name/INDIANA

[Omnes et Nihil]

Just thought I'd add (because I don't think anyone has mentioned it)...

For some trans folk, it's about gender identity. For some it's about gender expression. For some it's about body parts. For some it's about social roles, functioning and being treated as men or women. For many (probably most) it's some combination... but it doesn't have to be. And for others, it might be something completely different.

I know there are a lot of "what it really means to be trans" prescriptions out there, that don't always match up with each other, but often do follow the "ever since I was a small child, my body and assigned gender have been wrong, and I feel like I absolutely must change my body and presentation" script. While that certainly represents popular and valid experiences, there are others. And as someone alluded earlier in this thread, these other voices are often being silenced (as a result of defensive / reactionary politics in a transphobic society).

It really really sucks to see trans people's voices and experiences being discounted or met with hostility because they don't fit the stereotype of the perfect transsexual. And there are reasons why people who represent gender diversity in different ways don't always mix well. Politics, hostility, enforced silence. And it sucks.

I certainly can't tell anyone if they are or aren't trans (or anything else). But I have to agree that there are a lot of different ways of being just about anything. Yes, there are very feminine men (trans and otherwise). And hair has nothing to do with man-ness or male-ness, even if it happens to be a significant social gender cue.

And while people tend to focus a lot on stuff like hair and jewelry... if we're talking either gender or sex, those are kind of beside the point.

[KayleeSaeihr]

Just thought I'd add (because I don't think anyone has mentioned it)...

For some trans folk, it's about gender identity. For some it's about gender expression. For some it's about body parts. For some it's about social roles, functioning and being treated as men or women. For many (probably most) it's some combination... but it doesn't have to be. And for others, it might be something completely different.

I know there are a lot of "what it really means to be trans" prescriptions out there, that don't always match up with each other, but often do follow the "ever since I was a small child, my body and assigned gender have been wrong, and I feel like I absolutely must change my body and presentation" script. While that certainly represents popular and valid experiences, there are others. And as someone alluded earlier in this thread, these other voices are often being silenced (as a result of defensive / reactionary politics in a transphobic society).

It really really sucks to see trans people's voices and experiences being discounted or met with hostility because they don't fit the stereotype of the perfect transsexual. And there are reasons why people who represent gender diversity in different ways don't always mix well. Politics, hostility, enforced silence. And it sucks.

I certainly can't tell anyone if they are or aren't trans (or anything else). But I have to agree that there are a lot of different ways of being just about anything. Yes, there are very feminine men (trans and otherwise). And hair has nothing to do with man-ness or male-ness, even if it happens to be a significant social gender cue.

And while people tend to focus a lot on stuff like hair and jewelry... if we're talking either gender or sex, those are kind of beside the point.

I agree with your post, everyone is different and has different wants, needs and desires.

[Mr. Ten Below]

The most emphatically male transman I know also happens to be very effeminate. People mistake him for a gay man almost as often as they mistake him for a woman. And another transman I know has long beautiful hair and seems quite comfortable in his maleness. You are not alone.

[Kelly]

And another transman I know has long beautiful hair and seems quite comfortable in his maleness.

Long hair on transpeeps = cool. 8)

And Vincent (Shinnok) always reminded me of Ronnie Van Zant, especially when he had blond hair. Ronnie Van Zant was quite a masculine dude, too.

[Shinnok]

I'm surprised this thread got resurrected again :o

[Mr. Ten Below]

It's funny, sometimes I don't notice how old a thread is when I reply to it, heheh.