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Gatto

Male Lesbians

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Gatto

http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/Chapter05/Malelesbian.html

Pgs. 125 - 127

Shyness & Love: Causes, Consequences, and Treatment

Dr. Brian G. Gilmartin

University Press of America, Inc.

1987

The "Male Lesbian" Concept

Another potentially useful diagnostic label is that of "male lesbian".

On the surface the whole idea appears ludicrous; everyone knows that

lesbians are female homosexuals who want to "make it" vis-a-vis another

woman. Yet in selecting the men to be interviewed for this research the

seemingly incongruous notion of "male lesbian" kept staring me in the

face again and again. For this reason, I don't think that any book pre-

tending to be complete on the subject of chronic love-shyness in men

can afford to ignore the "male lesbian" idea.

Specifically, a "male lesbian" is a heterosexual man who wishes

that he had been born a woman, but who (even if he had been a woman)

could only make love to another woman and never to a man. Unlike

the transsexual, the "male lesbian" does not feel himself to be "a woman

trapped inside the body of a man". Moreover, none of the love-shy men

studied for this research entertained any wishes or fantasies of any kind

pertinent to the idea of obtaining a sex change operation. All wanted to

keep their male genitalia; all wanted to remain as males. However, all

deeply envied the perogatives of the female gender and truly believed

that these perogatives fitted their own inborn temperaments far more

harmoniously than the pattern of behavioral expectations to which males

are required to adhere. The following represent some typical comments

from love-shy males:

"From the time I was very, very young, I had always wished that I

had been born a girl. I know I would have been much happier as a

girl because I have always been attracted to the kinds of things that

girls do. But every time I think about how great it would have been

if I had been born a girl, I immediately realize that if I had been born

a girl I would be a lesbian. I have always strongly disliked the idea

of doing anything with my own sex. I despise men. Just thinking

about making love to a man, even as a woman, makes me want to

throw up! But I would also never want to play football or baseball

or any of the other games boys are supposed to like playing. I never

wanted to have anything to do with the male sex, on any level. So,

like if I had been born a girl as 1 would have wanted, I would

definitely be a lesbian because I'd be falling in love with and having

sex with girls instead of with men." (40-year old heterosexual love-

shy man.)

"To be perfectly frank, I don't think I would be shy at all if it wasn't

for this goddam norm that says that only the man can make the first

move with a woman in asking for dates. I mean if both sexes had

equal responsibility for having to suffer the indignity of having to

make the first move, I just know I would have been married fourteen

or maybe fifteen years ago." (35-year old love-shy man.)

"Well, I don't know if I'd actually like to be a woman. All I know

is that I've always envied women because they can play the passive

role and still get married. I think our society is extremely cruel to

men. It treats them like second class citizens all the time while women

get treated like prima donnas. When you write your book I hope

you emphasize the fact that men have feelings too. I mean, men are

human beings too, and they have feelings just as much as any woman

does. I think it's rotten and stinking the way it's always the man

who is made to suffer--like in the military, for example. Just because

a person happens to be a male he has to suffer all the horrors and

indignities of the military establishment and the selective slavery

system. If you're a man you're not supposed to feel any pain. You're

not supposed to have any feelings. You're supposed to be just like

a piece of steel and press forward no matter what harm or pain

comes to you. Well, I was lucky in being able to avoid the military--

thank God! But when it comes to getting a woman there doesn't

seem to be any way of getting around these extremely cruel social

rules that insist that only the man can be allowed to make the first

approach with a woman .... If I was writing a book on shyness

I'd hollar and shout on every page that the only way to solve the

problem is to change these cruel social rules. You tell your readers

that we've got to change the rules. And we've got to keep telling

our daughters from the time they are little that they have just as

much responsibility as men for making the first move in starting

romantic relationships." (38-year old love-shy man.)

Male lesbians differ from both transsexuals and homosexuals in that

they cannot conceive of themselves making love to a man. For example,

after sex change surgery the male transsexual almost always wants to

begin making love to a man AS A WOMAN. The male homosexual wants

to make love AS A MAN to a man. The male lesbian, on the other hand,

wishes that he had been born a woman. But he always makes it clear

that if he indeed had been born a woman he would be a full-fledged

lesbian. In other words, he would want to socialize exclusively with

women and he would choose female partners exclusively for love-mak-

ing and for sexmaking activity. In short, a secret fantasy of many love-

shy men is to be a beautiful woman who lives with and makes love with

another beautiful woman.

The love-shy men studied for this book all reluctantly accepted the

fact that they are males. And none of them had ever revealed any trans-

vestite tendencies. Thus, none of them had ever experienced any urge

to dress up as a woman or to put on lipstick or nail polish, etc. Since

they could not be a woman, most of them visualized themselves as a

man romancing a beautiful woman. And most of them had begun doing

this from a much earlier age in life than had the large majority of non-

shy heterosexual men.

As the later chapters of this book will clearly demonstrate, many

of the love-shy men studied never liked their own gender very much.

As young children most of them had avoided playmates of their own

sex. And most of them had envied the girls' play groups and play

activities. They had come to view conventional societal expectations as

cruel and callously insensitive because they perceived the girls' peer

groups and play activities as being their "natural terrain". Hence, they

had often thought to themselves that if they could only find a way of

gaining acceptance into the all-female peer group they would find hap-

piness, inner peace and contentment.

From a very early age in life onward, the love-shys felt somehow

"different" from their male peers. Something inside of themselves told

them that they did not belong around male peers. Male peer group

activities appeared foreign and often totally unappealing to them. And

they tended to view males and their peer group activities with feelings

of total and complete alienation and detachment. As one love-shy man

expressed it, "Whenever I watched the boys in my school playing I

might just as well have been watching a bunch of bear cubs play. I knew

they were having a good time; but I just didn't feel that I belonged to

their species. I knew that I belonged somewhere else, but I did not know

how to find that someplace else." The "someplace else" referred to was,

of course, an all-girl peer group.

And so the male lesbian (1) does not want to play with males, (2) does

not want to make love to or experience sex with males, (3) does not

have male recreational interests, and (4) does not even want to procreate

male children. The vast majority of the love-shy men interviewed for

this book confessed that if they ever did become fathers they would

want to have girl children only--NO BOYS. In stark contrast, only one

percent of the self-confident, non-shy men felt that way. In fact, the

non-shy men preferred the idea of fathering male children to the idea

of fathering female children by a ratio of almost three to two.

Interesting article. The concept makes perfect sense to me, but this was the first I'd read that it had been described academically. The article seems to suggest that gay transwomen are very unusual. I wonder if that's really true.

But certainly, I'm sure there are a lot of people who aren't happy with their sex/gender, but who wouldn't identify as trans, either because they think it would be a masquerade/they wouldn't pass/it isn't worth the grief - or just a sort of attitude of resignation to fate ("this is my cross to bear" or whatever).

Any opinions?

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mad_scientist

I'm having trouble understanding the article. Isn't it just describing MtF transgendered people who are sexually attracted to women? How is that new? Am I misunderstanding something? I mean, there's a note that they don't want genital surgery, but not everyone who doesn't fit the gender binary wants surgery.

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Kelly the Witch

Perhaps the author does not understand MtF people who like women. Also, one's gender identity and one's sexual orientation seem to develop at different times in utero. Perhaps an embryo's brain that develops male genetalia (and is likely XY), and also develops a sexual orientation for women, but develops a more female brain, at least regarding gender identity (in other words, are trans).

The being born "male" yet being born with a female gender identity is basically what a MtF is. If they do nonetheless like girls, well, so be it. They are women who were born male and part of that process caused them to like women.

Anyways, just some thoughts. I am still not sure of the author really understand what he is writing about. I would say that his "male lesbians" are just MtF peeps who happen to be attracted to women.

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Jillianimal

I'm on another forum & some of the guys would put that as their sexuality as joke....hahaha

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Min Farshaw

Well the author did clarify that he wasn't talking about M2F people, so who knows.

The article seems to suggest that gay transwomen are very unusual. I wonder if that's really true.

Anecdotal evidence (so take it for what it's worth) from my experience would suggest that this is very, very far from the truth.

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endplusone

Eddie Izzard has called himself a male lesbian.

To me it seems to sound more like one accepts and favours their effeminate quality of themselves but still recognize and do not want to change their physical bodies, and continue to be attracted to the "opposite gender". How do I say this... like having a woman's "spirit" but a man's physicality... and are happy with both, even if it seems to cause a tension to those who don't understand. Feminine men or men who enjoy a feminine side of themselves, who are attracted to women. It does sound like MtF, but perhaps it's just part of a spectrum. They still define their gender identity according to their physical bodies and in that way it is not so much about what they want to become, but they associate with feminine behaviour, roles, and so on.

Apologies if I am doing this an injustice. I'm trying to understand as well. Maybe I'm not making any sense at all. :P

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Elliott Ford

There ARE such people are male lesbians - but they're not quite what this article's on about.

First important point - lots of transwomen are lesbians. But they're in no way "male".

But there are people who are and identify as male - yet can also see themselves as lesbians.

The idea is that lesbians love women in a fundementally different way to heterosexual men, that lesbian relationships are entirely different to heterosexual relationships - and a male lesbian is a man who loves women in that way and wants that kind of relationship.

I briefly identified as a male lesbian (now identifying as straight with queer tendencies. and oh so ace) as all the women i love and/or am attracted to tend to be lesbians, bi women, queer women and/or transwomen and i identify as male.

for some people, it's a joke but for some people it's a reality. Some women identify as having the sexuality of a gay man but the identity of a straight woman. human genders and sexualities and romantic orientations all come in near-infinite varieties and combinations.

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Jillianimal
There ARE such people are male lesbians - but they're not quite what this article's on about.

First important point - lots of transwomen are lesbians. But they're in no way "male".

But there are people who are and identify as male - yet can also see themselves as lesbians.

The idea is that lesbians love women in a fundementally different way to heterosexual men, that lesbian relationships are entirely different to heterosexual relationships - and a male lesbian is a man who loves women in that way and wants that kind of relationship.

I briefly identified as a male lesbian (now identifying as straight with queer tendencies. and oh so ace) as all the women i love and/or am attracted to tend to be lesbians, bi women, queer women and/or transwomen and i identify as male.

for some people, it's a joke but for some people it's a reality. Some women identify as having the sexuality of a gay man but the identity of a straight woman. human genders and sexualities and romantic orientations all come in near-infinite varieties and combinations.

Why are us humans so freaking complicted?

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AVENCakes

The term love-shy kind of bugs me... :/

The idea is that lesbians love women in a fundementally different way to heterosexual men, that lesbian relationships are entirely different to heterosexual relationships - and a male lesbian is a man who loves women in that way and wants that kind of relationship.

It sounded like the article was describing non-op transwomen, but that makes more sense- especially from some of the quotes. It seems like it's straight guys who either want to be in the feminine role or wish they didn't always have to be in the masculine role.

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oneofthesun

I don't read the article as being about transgendered people at all. I think the author is talking about men who act like women when it comes to relationships. One opposite-gender trait does not make someone transgendered.

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Marco - Proprietor of Doom

OH No... no, no, no, no! I'm Exactly Like the guys in this article!!!

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Jazmin
There ARE such people are male lesbians - but they're not quite what this article's on about.

First important point - lots of transwomen are lesbians. But they're in no way "male".

But there are people who are and identify as male - yet can also see themselves as lesbians.

The idea is that lesbians love women in a fundementally different way to heterosexual men, that lesbian relationships are entirely different to heterosexual relationships - and a male lesbian is a man who loves women in that way and wants that kind of relationship.

I briefly identified as a male lesbian (now identifying as straight with queer tendencies. and oh so ace) as all the women i love and/or am attracted to tend to be lesbians, bi women, queer women and/or transwomen and i identify as male.

for some people, it's a joke but for some people it's a reality. Some women identify as having the sexuality of a gay man but the identity of a straight woman. human genders and sexualities and romantic orientations all come in near-infinite varieties and combinations.

Why are us humans so freaking complicted?

For the same reason that it makes us interesting 8)

I've heard someone describe themselves as a male lesbian before. I think the main difference between them and MtFs who happen to be attracted to women is that they are happy being male physically and wouldn't want to change it? (correct me if my understanding is wrong).

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AVENCakes
I don't read the article as being about transgendered people at all. I think the author is talking about men who act like women when it comes to relationships. One opposite-gender trait does not make someone transgendered.

I think the men that it actually is talking about aren't transgendered. But the article made it seem like they were, so reading that, and then the quotes confused me a great deal because they didnt' quite mesh.

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Charlieee
I don't read the article as being about transgendered people at all. I think the author is talking about men who act like women when it comes to relationships. One opposite-gender trait does not make someone transgendered.

I think the men that it actually is talking about aren't transgendered. But the article made it seem like they were, so reading that, and then the quotes confused me a great deal because they didnt' quite mesh.

That was my interpretation as well. I sort of understand what it really means - acting like a woman in a relationship, etc - but I'm hesitant about the choice of words to describe it.... rather appropriative.

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Min Farshaw

So would it be more or less correct to say that they identify like this as a way of rejecting traditional gender roles within a relationship?

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Marco - Proprietor of Doom

Some people seem to be having some difficulty under standing what this article is about, and seeing as it describe me in a nut shell I think I can help.

For one these people are not transgendered, It doesn't even necessarily mean a guy is particularly feminine (just usually).

It is more or less a man who deeply wishes they were born female for any number of reasons (the main reason is so they could be in a Lesbian relationship), but does not mean they would want a sex change or does not Identify as female because that wouldn't seem real to them, it would just be masquerading as something your not.

And even though they envy the opposite gender and want to be like them, they are still attracted to the opposite gender.

So even if by some miracle a Male lesbian woke up one morning female they would still be attracted to women and would not be interest being with the same gender.

Men like this would rather take the female role in a relationship.

That's the best I can do at least in writing, sorry if I've just been repeating the article. But this is the first time I could put words to how I feel.

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Kelly the Witch

Interesting, Marco.H. Thanks for explaining.

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Charlieee

Ok, that makes more sense, thanks. :cake: And I'm so glad that you seem to have found some comfort and solidarity in this article, that's great.

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NigelFt

Wow ...thank you Gatto, a million times over ! The book sums up the feelings I have been living with for the last two decades, but could never quite knew how to describe

I've heard someone describe themselves as a male lesbian before. I think the main difference between them and MtFs who happen to be attracted to women is that they are happy being male physically and wouldn't want to change it? (correct me if my understanding is wrong).

You are half right, a physically, I am happy being a man, but emotionally, if I could transition overnight from MtF, and find a female partner, it would change my life completely, and maybe I would be a lot happier.

Some people seem to be having some difficulty under standing what this article is about, and seeing as it describe me in a nut shell I think I can help.

For one these people are not transgendered, It doesn't even necessarily mean a guy is particularly feminine (just usually).

It is more or less a man who deeply wishes they were born female for any number of reasons (the main reason is so they could be in a Lesbian relationship), but does not mean they would want a sex change or does not Identify as female because that wouldn't seem real to them, it would just be masquerading as something your not.

And even though they envy the opposite gender and want to be like them, they are still attracted to the opposite gender.

So even if by some miracle a Male lesbian woke up one morning female they would still be attracted to women and would not be interest being with the same gender.

Men like this would rather take the female role in a relationship.

That's the best I can do at least in writing, sorry if I've just been repeating the article. But this is the first time I could put words to how I feel.

Well done, I could not have put it better myself.

Yup, I wish I was born female, simply because as a emotionally sensitive man, I find it easier to identify with women, more than men.

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mort paradis

I have to say, I understand the concept much better from reading a few of the replies than from this article itself.

Here is what confused me about the article and my thoughts on them:

Specifically, a "male lesbian" is a heterosexual man who wishes that he had been born a woman, but who (even if he had been a woman) could only make love to another woman and never to a man.

First off, this makes it sound like there is something wrong with a transwoman being a lesbian. It really is not that unusual at all, and from what I've seen is more common than in the non-trans community. Second, saying that they wish they had been born a woman, makes this sound a lot more like being a transwoman.

Moreover, none of the love-shy men studied for this research entertained any wishes or fantasies of any kind pertinent to the idea of obtaining a sex change operation. All wanted to keep their male genitalia; all wanted to remain as males.

Not all trans people want a sex change. It would of been a lot less confusing if the author just said they wanted to remain as males. I have a feeling that the person who wrote this has a rather limited knowledge pertaining to transpeople. It may of been better doing some research into transwomen before contrasting male lesbians to transwomen, because the way it is written in some ways makes it seem more similar than dissimilar. Like with these three parts:

However, all deeply envied the perogatives of the female gender and truly believed that these perogatives fitted their own inborn temperaments far more harmoniously than the pattern of behavioral expectations to which males are required to adhere.

"From the time I was very, very young, I had always wished that I had been born a girl. I know I would have been much happier as a girl because I have always been attracted to the kinds of things that girls do."

The male lesbian, on the other hand, wishes that he had been born a woman. But he always makes it clear that if he indeed had been born a woman he would be a full-fledged lesbian.

To continue

Male lesbians differ from both transsexuals and homosexuals in that they cannot conceive of themselves making love to a man.

Great way to imply that translesbians don't exist. :rolleyes:

For example, after sex change surgery the male transsexual almost always wants to begin making love to a man AS A WOMAN.

A male transsexual would be an FtM, and therefor would not want to do that after SRS. :lol: Of course this also mostly ignores all the transwomen that aren't straight.

After rereading, and reading the replies, I think I can start to understand the concept more. I also don't have a problem with the concept, it's just this article that i don't like. :rolleyes:

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Toff

There is some other writing touching on this topic, not sure if it's been mentioned before:

Jacquelyn N. Zita, "Male Lesbians and the Postmodernist Body" Hypatia vol. 7, no. 4 (Fall 1992) 106-127. It's pretty interesting, I thought.

Maybe also:

Naomi Schor, "Male Lesbianism" GLQ: A Journal of Lesbian and Gay Studies 7:3 (2001): 391-399 and Thaïs E. Morgan, “Male Lesbian Bodies: The Construction of Alternative Masculinities

in Courbet, Baudelaire, and Swinburne,” Genders 15 (1992): 37–57.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_heterosexuality

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Pandoren

I should stop reading these threads, lol, all the labels and possibilities are mind boggling ha ha

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Sammie
For one these people are not transgendered, It doesn't even necessarily mean a guy is particularly feminine (just usually).

It is more or less a man who deeply wishes they were born female for any number of reasons (the main reason is so they could be in a Lesbian relationship), but does not mean they would want a sex change or does not Identify as female because that wouldn't seem real to them, it would just be as something your not.

And even though they envy the opposite gender and want to be like them, they are still attracted to the opposite gender.

So even if by some miracle a Male lesbian woke up one morning female they would still be attracted to women and would not be interest being with the same gender.

Men like this would rather take the female role in a relationship.

How does 'deeply wishing you had been born female' not make you trans? Do you think trans people don't struggle with the view of a sexchange as a masquerade? The way it's never a perfect transition to being completely physically the other sex?

Male lesbians just sound like genderqueer or MtF's who are attracted to women.

I don't believe a 'lesbian relationship' would be different in essense from a heterosexual one. That implies all sorts of views about how a lesbian or a heterosexual relationship should be. In the end, there are a million ways to be in a relationship. The stereotypes never fit.

As for having 'the female role in a relationship', what the hell is that? If relationships have roles for males and females that are more then a meaningless social stigma , I've never found them.

I haven't found any argument that made me think male lesbians are really a different group from MtF's.

ps:

What about the Female Gays? or FtM's who are homosexual?

I've heared of the singer from Athens Boys Choir proudly calling himselves Fagette.

I like reclaiming f-words and rather like this one. :D

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Kelly the Witch

Perhaps I am an asexual male lesbian who happens to have an innie rather than an outie. ;)

Srsly!

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KayleeSaeihr

An asexual male lesbian in a female body? It could certainly be possible.

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Toff
How does 'deeply wishing you had been born female' not make you trans? Do you think trans people don't struggle with the view of a sexchange as a masquerade? The way it's never a perfect transition to being completely physically the other sex?

Male lesbians just sound like genderqueer or MtF's who are attracted to women.

I don't believe a 'lesbian relationship' would be different in essense from a heterosexual one. That implies all sorts of views about how a lesbian or a heterosexual relationship should be. In the end, there are a million ways to be in a relationship. The stereotypes never fit.

As for having 'the female role in a relationship', what the hell is that? If relationships have roles for males and females that are more then a meaningless social stigma , I've never found them.

I haven't found any argument that made me think male lesbians are really a different group from MtF's.

Depends which "male lesbians" you're referring to, partly. If Gilmartin's, deeply wishing to have been born female, but having been born male, no desire to begin to be anything but male. No desire for, no steps towards, a transition of any kind. If there are MtF people like that, then, I suppose these male lesbians could be called that too, if they wanted to be, which I suspect they would not.

Gilmartin and at least some of his male lesbians were pretty stereotyped in their views of men and women and their roles; he was also into pseudoscience. Thus WTH is apt to be a response to a number of things in his books.

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knout
I haven't found any argument that made me think male lesbians are really a different group from MtF's.

My guess would be that male lesbians won't try to change their bodies/outlook whereas MtF will usually dress up as females and (but that's not the case for all) change their bodies, male lesbians will still look masculine but don't want to have a boy-girl relationship

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Marco - Proprietor of Doom
How does 'deeply wishing you had been born female' not make you trans? Do you think trans people don't struggle with the view of a sexchange as a masquerade? The way it's never a perfect transition to being completely physically the other sex?

Male lesbians just sound like genderqueer or MtF's who are attracted to women.

I don't believe a 'lesbian relationship' would be different in essense from a heterosexual one. That implies all sorts of views about how a lesbian or a heterosexual relationship should be. In the end, there are a million ways to be in a relationship. The stereotypes never fit.

As for having 'the female role in a relationship', what the hell is that? If relationships have roles for males and females that are more then a meaningless social stigma , I've never found them.

I haven't found any argument that made me think male lesbians are really a different group from MtF's.

ps:

What about the Female Gays? or FtM's who are homosexual?

I've heared of the singer from Athens Boys Choir proudly calling himselves Fagette.

I like reclaiming f-words and rather like this one. :D

Ummmm... I don't know, well that's most of my answer covered.

It's all a matter of perspective I suppose, depends how you view gender, for me personally it is the physical difference between females and males.

and as for female and male roles in society, yes while the vast majority of it is just a stupid fabrication, it's still there, I'll still have to act and be treated a particular way because I'm a guy.

Also I haven't found any argument that made me think male lesbians are in the same group as MtF's. (MtF means Male to female right?)

Doesn't MtF mean a male who identifies as female, well a male lesbian still identifies as male. You could almost say a male lesbian is a man trapped in a man's body. :P

This gender discussion stuff isn't really something I'm that good at.

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Charlieee

A large part of it has to do with relationships, I think. As someone said, lesbian relationships and hetero relationships do work differently, and a male lesbian might act like one in a lesbian relationship, as opposed to the man in a hetero relationship.

And, as I understand it, male lesbians might wish to have been born female, but instead "deal" with being male. Continue to fulfill a masculine gender presentation, etc, where instead, trans women refuse to deal with being male and work to transition to female...

But there is a difference, whether you see it or not.

Male Lesbian is an identity, and, as you can see from all of the confusion, mostly a self-defined one.... If you're not a male lesbian, it's not your place to decide whether others really are or are not male lesbians. No one is obligated to present to you a valid argument that you can understand of why male lesbians are not trans women. Not trying to call anyone out, but just a reminder to be respectful, y'know? If you don't understand someone's identity, go ahead and ask questions, but do not try to invalidate it. That's not cool.

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Sammie

About the topic MtF, Male to Female, it should maybe be mentioned that while there are MtF transsexuals who choose to undergo surgery and such to make their body fit their female identity, there are also people in the group MtF transgenders who choose not to undergo surgery but simply live as a woman.

Also I haven't found any argument that made me think male lesbians are in the same group as MtF's. (MtF means Male to female right?)

Doesn't MtF mean a male who identifies as female, well a male lesbian still identifies as male. You could almost say a male lesbian is a man trapped in a man's body. :P

So a male lesbian wants to be female but identifies as male? Then they're unhappy not just about their body but about their own identity? That must be rather difficult emotionally.

And, as I understand it, male lesbians might wish to have been born female, but instead "deal" with being male. Continue to fulfill a masculine gender presentation, etc, where instead, trans women refuse to deal with being male and work to transition to female...

If they want to be female, why would male lesbians choose to fulfill the masculine gender presentation? Do they choose to act 'as society demands' to avoid discrimination or do they feel that they must live as their biological sex out of personal views?

But there is a difference, whether you see it or not.

As with most topics relating to gender, whether differences perceived are real or not, natural or social, etc, is difficult to answer with any certainty.

I'd say there are differences between lesbian relationships and hetero relationships for those who want to see them. And then there are a lot of people and a lot of relationships not fitting those definitions and people who don't even bother to see differences because why let anyone tell you what a relationship should be like?

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