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Male Lesbians


Gatto

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About the topic MtF, Male to Female, it should maybe be mentioned that while there are MtF transsexuals who choose to undergo surgery and such to make their body fit their female identity, there are also people in the group MtF transgenders who choose not to undergo surgery but simply live as a woman.

I realize some transpeople choose not to do surgery, but otherwise transition by dressing/behaving/identifing as they wish (e.g. Brandon Teena). Could one be said to "live as a woman" or be MtF without surgery and without a transition of any kind, though?

So a male lesbian wants to be female but identifies as male? Then they're unhappy not just about their body but about their own identity? That must be rather difficult emotionally.

Wants to have always been biologically female and identifies as male, I believe. From what Gilmartin wrote, I don't get a sense of unhappiness about their bodies exactly: "does not feel himself to be 'a woman trapped inside the body of a man'. Moreover, none of the love-shy men studied for this research entertained any wishes or fantasies of any kind pertinent to the idea of obtaining a sex change operation. All wanted to keep their male genitalia; all wanted to remain as males."

If they want to be female, why would male lesbians choose to fulfill the masculine gender presentation? Do they choose to act 'as society demands' to avoid discrimination or do they feel that they must live as their biological sex out of personal views?

I'm not sure it's accurate to say they want to be female. They want to have always been biologically female, to have grown up that way, and presently be that, which is a wish that can't be fulfilled in any way. They're not necessarily "masculine," could be "feminine" I'd suppose, and I believe Gilmartin said they had various traits generally identified more as "feminine" but those terms are so stereotypically loaded I hesitate to use them myself. I don't get a sense of them acting "as society demands" at all (indeed they recognize that they are already not behaving "as society demands" by their shyness, perhaps by other reasons as well), and not really of living as men "out of personal views" but because they can't have what they want.

Zita's "male lesbians" were somewhat different if I recall correctly, feeling they relate to women as women, but not harboring a wish to have been women. She had less contact with such people and was largely hypothesizing anyway, I seem to think. Zita's also say that they *are* male lesbians (or at least she says they do), whereas Gilmartin's say they *would* be lesbians *if* they had been women; "male lesbian" is a label Gilmartin applies to them rather than a term they used themselves, seemingly.

Anyhow, the passage gives some sense of Gilmartin with statements like "lesbians are female homosexuals who want to 'make it' vis-a-vis another woman." WTH kind of scientific writing is that?

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I haven't found any argument that made me think male lesbians are really a different group from MtF's.

My guess would be that male lesbians won't try to change their bodies/outlook whereas MtF will usually dress up as females and (but that's not the case for all) change their bodies, male lesbians will still look masculine but don't want to have a boy-girl relationship

Gilmartin states definitively that "male lesbians" won't try to become women. They may or may not look masculine and wish they could have had a female-female relationship, but given the impossibility of fulfilling their wish, desperately want (yet are unable to obtain) a male-female relationship. His book is primarily about that last point, the "love shyness" and what can be done about it.

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As, someone who describes themselves as a male lesbian, I can add the following. I am biologically male, and am happy with that status only to the extent that I have no desire to transition, or become a TV. However, despite those caveats given a choice, I would preferred to have been born female than male and given that had I been born a female I would prefer to have a relationship with another women. Of course I cannot speak for other male lesbians, but I can say for myself that it is a case of wish fulfillment, but not having the desire to transition, simply accepting that I am male, and trying to make the best of it.

I'm not sure it's accurate to say they want to be female. They want to have always been biologically female, to have grown up that way, and presently be that, which is a wish that can't be fulfilled in any way. They're not necessarily "masculine," could be "feminine" I'd suppose, and I believe Gilmartin said they had various traits generally identified more as "feminine" but those terms are so stereotypically loaded I hesitate to use them myself. I don't get a sense of them acting "as society demands" at all (indeed they recognize that they are already not behaving "as society demands" by their shyness, perhaps by other reasons as well), and not really of living as men "out of personal views" but because they can't have what they want.

Almost precisely that; I am more emotionally sensitive than most men that I know of, and find it more easier to develop friendships with other women than men, yet at the same time I have accepted myself as male. I just wish I was born female.

I can understand why the concept is so confusing, as it sounds contradictory, and at the same time close to MtF; as Gilmartin describes it, here is a group of men who rather they were born female, and if they were female, would seek a relationship with another women; yet at the same time, have no desire to transition to becoming female, accepted the fact they are male, and live as males.

Anyhow, the passage gives some sense of Gilmartin with statements like "lesbians are female homosexuals who want to 'make it' vis-a-vis another woman." WTH kind of scientific writing is that?

I have no idea ...certainly not the sort of scientific, empirical writing that I am more than familiar with

Gilmartin states definitively that "male lesbians" won't try to become women. They may or may not look masculine and wish they could have had a female-female relationship, but given the impossibility of fulfilling their wish, desperately want (yet are unable to obtain) a male-female relationship. His book is primarily about that last point, the "love shyness" and what can be done about it.

Again, precisely where I am coming from; I am not that masculine again, but I am not feminine either. Yet, although I am able to develop friendships easier with women then men, I found it impossible to obtain the kind of romantic relationship with a women I desire ...

I wonder if the book is still obtainable ... I would love to know what I can do about being "love shy" ...

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Wayne Turner

That was an interesting read.

Who would of that...!

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Wow NigelFt, you described the way I feel :)

Almost precisely that; I am more emotionally sensitive than most men that I know of, and find it more easier to develop friendships with other women than men, yet at the same time I have accepted myself as male. I just wish I was born female.

I don't have that much friendships with females though, because I have a hard time talking usually, but I usually feel like I have more in common with them than with most of men.

I've looked into both love-shyness and male lesbians concepts and I recognise there's a lot that could be applied to me... but I'm never sure :mellow:

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I am biologically male, and am happy with that status only to the extent that I have no desire to transition, or become a TV.

I have no desire to become a television either. ;)

sorry, couldn't resist.

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I wonder if the book is still obtainable ... I would love to know what I can do about being "love shy" ...

Gilmartin put out two books on the subject, though one is just an abbreviated version of the other. Both are out of print and the longer (if not both) are pretty expensive used. However, it can be found digitized online at http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/toc.html

You may find Zita's article interesting too.

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mort paradis
Could one be said to "live as a woman" or be MtF without surgery and without a transition of any kind, though?

That depends on how you define transition. Basically, to live as a woman, would require appearing and interacting as a woman. It can be possible (though difficult) to do this without taking hormones or having any surgeries (which is how most people define transition). To be MtF only requires that you identify as a woman (who was unfortunately born into a male body) - it doesn't matter when or even if you plan on doing anything towards living as a woman and/or transitioning.

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Could one be said to "live as a woman" or be MtF without surgery and without a transition of any kind, though?

That depends on how you define transition. Basically, to live as a woman, would require appearing and interacting as a woman. It can be possible (though difficult) to do this without taking hormones or having any surgeries (which is how most people define transition). To be MtF only requires that you identify as a woman (who was unfortunately born into a male body) - it doesn't matter when or even if you plan on doing anything towards living as a woman and/or transitioning.

Interesting. Perhaps Gilmartin's "male lesbians" could be considered transwomen/MtF then, I'm not sure.

To return to one of your earlier comments, probably if such a concept were to be written about further at this point it might have to be called "cismale lesbians" to be clearer. Gilmartin didn't look at the possibility of transmale lesbians. For (many/most?) transmen who are solely attracted to women, they probably would not like to be labeled lesbians, I'd think. I have read of one such couple identifying as "queer heterosexuals." However, conceivably there could be transmen who identify as male, but feel they relate to women as women? Not sure. They might have some things in common with cismale lesbians, but would be missing the desire to have been born as women (though I suppose some could be happy to have been born as women and happy to be transmen rather than cismen?). Nor did he look at transfemale lesbians; one would suppose they'd be more similar, although one of Gilmartin's characteristics was no desire to transition. Thus one returns to the question above, how might one compare Gilmartin's "male lesbians" with a group of transwomen who do not plan to live as women or transition. Haven't gotten around to a course at school that covers trans-identities yet (but want to), and only have one transmale friend and one transfemale friend, both of whom are bisexual.

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Ok so I didn't read this thread for ages, but now I have I really can't help commenting on it.

Firstly, I think the term male lesbian is, i dunno, i feel a bit kind of like, stop using my identifier (lesbian because it has nothing to do with you, you're male, you don't know what its like to be female. But I realise thats kind of kneejerk and doesn't achieve anything and people have the right to self-definition yadda yadda yadda.

Secondly I think the whole concept is just like, well, lots of girls grow up wanting to be boys because of the freedome and power it grants you. We don't call them a special term, its just recognised that gender division affords men different benefits to women and vice versa, and that not everyone is going to fit perfectly with their given gender. I don't think this needs to be named and dissected, its just an inevitable outcome of trying to divide an infinitely varied thing as the human race into two silly little categories.

Thirdly I have a problem with the idea that heterosexual relationships are different to lesbian relationships and men can never have a lesbian relationship. All (it seems to me) that is different is that lesbians don't come with an in-built power differential in their relationship and gender roles are so obviously ridiculous that they aren't adhered to. It sounds like male lesbians just want a relationship with a woman which isn't based around gender, and where they can be the weak one sometimes or whatever, ie. gender parity. Unfortunately it can be hard to negotiate this with a partner who doesn't accept that men can and should be able to express their emotions ( + insert whatever "feminine" stereotypes you like"), just like it would be hard to be a woman and want to be the main breadwinner in your house while your male partner stays home.

So yeah, sorry that turned into a long post, I just think its a bit silly, women have dealt with this mismatch between their gender expectations and what they actually want to do for years. They decided it was bullshit and they weren't going to care about it anymore. Feminism happened. Are you trying to tell me that the sex with power, money, respect, strength, control and reasoning on their side can't tell gender expectations to fuck off?

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Ok so I didn't read this thread for ages, but now I have I really can't help commenting on it.

Firstly, I think the term male lesbian is, i dunno, i feel a bit kind of like, stop using my identifier (lesbian because it has nothing to do with you, you're male, you don't know what its like to be female. But I realise thats kind of kneejerk and doesn't achieve anything and people have the right to self-definition yadda yadda yadda.

There's no doubt that appropriation is a touchy subject. Again, though: I think Gilmartin's "male lesbians" did not self-identify as such. That was his label for them. Zita's "male lesbians" did (I really recommend her article, it's much more interesting). The same issue has been raised for "queer heterosexual."

Secondly I think the whole concept is just like, well, lots of girls grow up wanting to be boys because of the freedome and power it grants you. We don't call them a special term, its just recognised that gender division affords men different benefits to women and vice versa, and that not everyone is going to fit perfectly with their given gender. I don't think this needs to be named and dissected, its just an inevitable outcome of trying to divide an infinitely varied thing as the human race into two silly little categories.

Lots of girls do grow up that way? Maybe it's much rarer for boys, and that's why it might be worthy of study. Or because they continue to feel that way in adulthood and are also having problems. In any case, I feel that any phenomenon is worthy of study, no matter how common or uncommon.

Thirdly I have a problem with the idea that heterosexual relationships are different to lesbian relationships and men can never have a lesbian relationship. All (it seems to me) that is different is that lesbians don't come with an in-built power differential in their relationship and gender roles are so obviously ridiculous that they aren't adhered to. It sounds like male lesbians just want a relationship with a woman which isn't based around gender, and where they can be the weak one sometimes or whatever, ie. gender parity. Unfortunately it can be hard to negotiate this with a partner who doesn't accept that men can and should be able to express their emotions ( + insert whatever "feminine" stereotypes you like"), just like it would be hard to be a woman and want to be the main breadwinner in your house while your male partner stays home.

So yeah, sorry that turned into a long post, I just think its a bit silly, women have dealt with this mismatch between their gender expectations and what they actually want to do for years. They decided it was bullshit and they weren't going to care about it anymore. Feminism happened. Are you trying to tell me that the sex with power, money, respect, strength, control and reasoning on their side can't tell gender expectations to fuck off?

Bah, don't apologize for long posts. Screw the tl;dr crowd. It wasn't even long anyway.

"women have dealt with this mismatch between their gender expectations and what they actually want to do for years. They decided it was bullshit and they weren't going to care about it anymore." - I don't think this has happened.

"the sex with power, money, respect, strength, control and reasoning on their side can't tell gender expectations to fuck off?" - Clearly not, partly because men in general, and men as a whole don't have power, money, respect, strength, control and reasoning on their side; it's only some men that do.

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Mr. Ten Below

I really didn't understand what was going on and how this was different from MtF until I read NigelFt's explanation. A man who wishes he was a woman, but knows he isn't -- that actually makes sense to me.

Just thinking aloud here... I wonder if, sort of in response to henshin, there should be a term for women who wish they were men, know they are women, and want to have relationships with men as men? Since there isn't actually a gender-specific word for gay men as there is for gay women, I have a feeling it won't happen. Isn't a woman like that often called a "strong woman" or something? I don't know really. Gender mystifies me.

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I wish I were a millionaire, but I'm not working very hard on transitioning, as I'm unemployed.

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By my understanding of it-

Male Lesbians prefer a more passive "female" role in a relationship wtih a woman, and feel the only way to achieve that is by being female. There are many instances in history of women dressing up as and parading as men to be able to reach places women couldn't dream of reaching as women- and I doubt that every single one of them was a transman (it wouldn't surprise me if some are), this is similar. They don't want to be women for the sake of being women, but because they think the only way they can get what they want in this society is by being female.

Transwomen, on the other hand, are women. They don't have to want to take the feminine role in relationships, relationships don't even have to be a relevant factor. For a lot of transwomen- relationshpis are a strong reason not to transitoon, how many married transwomen find themselves divorced afterwards?

So, basically, if I understand it right, Male Lesbians are men who feel like the only way they can be happy in a relationship is if they were women because they want to take teh passive role with a woman, whereas transwomen are women

And, since someone mentioned it, it wouldn't surprise me if there are... female gay men. Yeah, the lack of a gender-specific word for a gay man is annoying here. But, as Seabhac put it, a woman could want to take the dominant "male" role in a relationship with a man without actually being a man and feeling like they only way that could work is if she were actually male and dated a gay guy who was okay with being in the passive or "female" role.

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My ex is now calling himself a lesbian, but uses male pronouns a male name for business purposes. So I guess he would count as a male lesbian. He's not at all shy or sad; he's extroverted, he's making it in the art world, and he's in a good relationship with a woman who appreciates him. He mostly presents as a woman when doing relationshippy things. So I'd say he's a male lesbian.

I wasn't so big on the way Gilmartin's article seemed to run together the idea of being genderqueer and the idea of having an unhappy love life. I also wasn't so big on the way they seemed to define femaleness in terms of gender stereotypes: I have a body that is female and hard to read as anything else, but I am not sweet or soft or passive or particularly social intelligent. (And yeah, as a matter of fact, I have some gender issues, but that's kind of orthogonal. I have lots of female friends who are equally tough and aggressive who don't identify with maleness at all.)

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I wasn't so big on the way Gilmartin's article seemed to run together the idea of being genderqueer and the idea of having an unhappy love life. I also wasn't so big on the way they seemed to define femaleness in terms of gender stereotypes: I have a body that is female and hard to read as anything else, but I am not sweet or soft or passive or particularly social intelligent. (And yeah, as a matter of fact, I have some gender issues, but that's kind of orthogonal. I have lots of female friends who are equally tough and aggressive who don't identify with maleness at all.)

It is annoying- but I think that's half the problem a lot of people have. People expect everyone of each gender to fit these defined gender roles and stereotypes, and not everyone does. It's not wrong for a girl to be "masculine" and have "male" qualities, and it's not wrong for a guy to be "feminine" and have "female" qualities- and there's nothing wrong with it,a nd doesn't make them men or women, respectively, just because they have qualities associated with the opposite sex. It'd be great if everyone were more accepting that there are strong, aggressive women and soft, passive men.

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I don't really understand the concept. As far as I can tell, male lesbians are men who "wease off the gig" (to use the vernacular of Encino Man) of MTFs who happen to be lesbians, claiming to be the same as us just because they want a female sexual role.

Which, I might add, is not possible. A straight woman is going to have ideas and expectations of how a man is supposed to behave in bed. A lesbian is not going to go for someone who is biologically male; even if she is attracted to one, she is forbidden by the Lesbian Community from acting on this attraction (I learned that the hard way). So, like MTFs, they are simply trapped between worlds.

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Which, I might add, is not possible. A straight woman is going to have ideas and expectations of how a man is supposed to behave in bed. A lesbian is not going to go for someone who is biologically male; even if she is attracted to one, she is forbidden by the Lesbian Community from acting on this attraction (I learned that the hard way). So, like MTFs, they are simply trapped between worlds.

That's a gross overgeneralization. It is possible. Uncommon, but possible. Not all straight women have those ideas and expectations, and those that do aren't all unmoving in them- and not all lesbians refuse to date guys. With very few exceptions, all the lesbians I know have dated at least one cisguy since coming out as lesbians. Maybe that's not the same as your experiences- but the fact is that identifying as lesbian doesn't preclude falling in love with a man any more than identifying as a straight woman doesn't preclude falling in love with another woman, it just means that it's extremely unlikely.

You're also ignoring the fact that, just like men can prefer a "female" role in relationships, women can prefer a "male" role and would love to date these "male lesbians". I know of a few couples that are like that- the man prefers the "female" role, the woman prefers the "male". It's becoming more common to have stay-at-home dads and for the women to be the main bread winners. It'll be harder than if they fit into the accepted situation- but it's still possible for male lesbians to find a woman who's happy to take the "male" role and let them take the "female".

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You must live in a different country or something (i.e. not the United States).

There is a huge gay/lesbian community where I live, and it's really big on exclusion. (From what I've read, that's true everywhere in this country; I read about a gay Mexican in San Francisco who wasn't accepted into the mostly-white gay community on Castro.)

I've had two lesbian friends fall in love with me on separate occasions, but neither said that straight out, and both were ashamed to be seen with me in front of lesbian friends. My mom used to have a lesbian friend, a very long time ago, who didn't want to come over to her house because she (my mom) had a male dog.

I learned the hard way that being biologically male in the lesbian community is like being black in a racist all-white community. Even if you're the least male possible, even if you're basically a girl who just looks male, even if 40% of women see you as female when they first meet you, even if female culture is all you've ever known, you're still as bad as the rapists, molesters, and wife-beaters, just because of physical appearance.

Even if a lesbian falls in love with someone like me, she is still subject to the pressure placed on her by her community.

They say lesbians are more tolerant and open-minded, but it's straight women who accept me as one of the girls.

Also, how do these male lesbians and female gay men find each other?

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Hallucigenia
Also, how do these male lesbians and female gay men find each other?

One would imagine they do it by dating. They're outwardly straight, after all, so it's a lot easier for them to do that than for some.

I don't know how it is on your planet, but over here, people date people they're attracted to, or think they could be attracted to, and they figure out whether or not they're attracted by observing the other person. Appearance is part of that, but so is behavior, and a lot of folks get really good at identifying people who are intelligent, confident, dominant, funny, considerate, warm-hearted, gregarious, or whatever other personality traits they're looking for. Being an aggressive female with masculine personality traits, or a passive male with feminine personality traits, doesn't seem like it would be a harder trait to look for than any other trait.

Of course, the initial observation doesn't tell you everything, and sometimes if you go looking for aggressive females with masculine personality traits you'll find that they switch to being passive in a relationship with a biological male. But, again, it's the same way with any other personality trait, really. Sometimes a seemingly intelligent person will turn out to be totally uninterested in the particular intellectual stuff you wanted to talk about with them. Sometimes a seemingly warm-hearted person will have an intolerant or insensitive side that comes out when you date them. But you pick yourself up and keep looking. Or so I have heard.

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You must live in a different country or something (i.e. not the United States).

I live ont he East Coast of the US- and that's my experiences. It's not true of everyone, but DAR is also based in the US. You just need to find a new, less intolerant crowd. LGs can be some of the least accepting people out there- I know a transman who, prior to coming out, learned transphobia not from a bigoted mother but from the lesbians he hung out with. Of the people I know, I also know a person who would constantly tease her friend because she dated one guy. However, just because there is intolerance in every group doesn't mean you can't find tolerant people.

Also, how do these male lesbians and female gay men find each other?

How does anyone find each other? Chance? Fate? Random meetings?

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You must live in a different country or something (i.e. not the United States).

There is a huge gay/lesbian community where I live, and it's really big on exclusion.

Oh, my. Wow. :( *hugs*

The USA LGBT community that I know around here is really big on acceptance.

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Oh, my. Wow. :( *hugs*

The USA LGBT community that I know around here is really big on acceptance.

Same here. And I live in the freakin' bible belt. A fairly accepting part of the bible belt- but it's still the bible belt. They advertise everything with NASCAR and/or references to church.

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You must live in a different country or something (i.e. not the United States).

I live ont he East Coast of the US- and that's my experiences. It's not true of everyone, but DAR is also based in the US. You just need to find a new, less intolerant crowd.

I did. It's called "straight people."

LGs can be some of the least accepting people out there- I know a transman who, prior to coming out, learned transphobia not from a bigoted mother but from the lesbians he hung out with. Of the people I know, I also know a person who would constantly tease her friend because she dated one guy.

If you agree with me, what was all that talk about how what I said is a gross overgeneralization? I don't get it.

However, just because there is intolerance in every group doesn't mean you can't find tolerant people.

Actually, that's not the issue. It's not that these two lesbians weren't tolerant of me, it was that they couldn't afford to have their status in the lesbian community lowered. And I'm not saying either of them are bad people; it's just reality. Forbidden love is only cute in the movies.

Still, my experiences have taught me to let gays and lesbians live the separate lives they wish to live. I can see why a lot of straight people don't like them. Not because of their sex lives, but because they're so intolerant. I used to be a big supporter of them; now I'm just sick of them. I know that's not politically correct, but that's how I feel. (I have so much more to say, but I don't want to start a flame war, so I'm ending my paragraph here and leaving the rest to your imagination.)

And transpeople are not exempt from this rant. Few of them respect my decision not to transition; they insist that if I can live without transitioning, I'm "just a sensitive guy."

Kelly: Thanks :)

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If you agree with me, what was all that talk about how what I said is a gross overgeneralization? I don't get it.

"Can be some of". I did not say that all lesbians are intolerant people, nor did I say all groups of lesbians are- though when you get mob mentality going it can be annoying as hell. I said that they can be, just like straight people can be. However, you're still making a gross overgeneralization. Just because LGs can be intolerant, there are also plenty of very tolerant and accepting gay men and women and accepting and tolerant GL groups- just like there are plenty of tolerant and accepting straight, christian, etc people and groups. My entire college was an extremely GLB campus- and they were also a very accepting campus. No one had a problem with me being trans or asexual, and, obviously, no one had a problem with lesbians who happen to date the occasional guy.

You are making a gross overgeneralization when you say it's impossible for a man who wishes to take on a "female" role in a relationship to find a girl who'll be happy to let him.

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If you agree with me, what was all that talk about how what I said is a gross overgeneralization? I don't get it.

"Can be some of". I did not say that all lesbians are intolerant people, nor did I say all groups of lesbians are- though when you get mob mentality going it can be annoying as hell. I said that they can be, just like straight people can be. However, you're still making a gross overgeneralization. Just because LGs can be intolerant, there are also plenty of very tolerant and accepting gay men and women and accepting and tolerant GL groups- just like there are plenty of tolerant and accepting straight, christian, etc people and groups.

You still can't escape the central argument: Individual tolerance doesn't mean jack. If a person can suffer consequences for being in a relationship with a transperson, they're going to think twice no metter how tolerant they are.

My entire college was an extremely GLB campus- and they were also a very accepting campus. No one had a problem with me being trans or asexual, and, obviously, no one had a problem with lesbians who happen to date the occasional guy.

But how would they have reacted to a serious relationship? Dating is so short-lived, they probably think, "Well, if she wants to sleep with male trash and get it out of her system, that's one thing, but for a serious relationship, she needs a woman, or she's not a real lesbian."

You are making a gross overgeneralization when you say it's impossible for a man who wishes to take on a "female" role in a relationship to find a girl who'll be happy to let him.

Well, maybe it's not impossible. But certainly very hard. It makes me think of George Carlin's comment about sexual fetishes: "It's hard enough [finding a partner], can you imagine cruising the bars for someone who wants you to throw cantaloupes at his [butt] and [defecate] on his chest?"

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You still can't escape the central argument: Individual tolerance doesn't mean jack. If a person can suffer consequences for being in a relationship with a transperson, they're going to think twice no metter how tolerant they are.

Which is why I specified groups, there are tolerant groups that don't care what genitalia the people you're dating have. And some individuals care about the object of their affection enough to ignore the social consequences.

I've pointed out that I know and know of lesbians who have married cismen and transmen, lesbians who've had serious relationships with men of all shapes and sizes, and even a lesbian who went out with a "guy" who turned out to be a transgirl because she could sense her female spirit. And, of course, lesbians who date transwomen. I've also heard of lesbians afraid to date another woman because she was bisexual, so peer pressure can go both ways- but if that's the problem, then find a damn partner who's capable of just saying "no" to it.

And with straight women, it's even easier for a guy to find a girl who's willing to be the masculine role- because they have much less social problems. There'll be jokes about who wears the pants, but there are in just about every relationship where the man isn't abusive and domineering, so while it'll take work to find a girl willing to, it's certainly not impossible.

But how would they have reacted to a serious relationship? Dating is so short-lived, they probably think, "Well, if she wants to sleep with male trash and get it out of her system, that's one thing, but for a serious relationship, she needs a woman, or she's not a real lesbian."

One of the girls almost got married to the guy and had been with him for 4-5 years. Nobody had much of a problem except one person who gave the occasional jibe, and that wasn't very serious.

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Which is why I specified groups, there are tolerant groups that don't care what genitalia the people you're dating have. And some individuals care about the object of their affection enough to ignore the social consequences. I've pointed out that I know and know of lesbians who have married cismen and transmen, lesbians who've had serious relationships with men of all shapes and sizes, and even a lesbian who went out with a "guy" who turned out to be a transgirl because she could sense her female spirit.

Only the last one is a true lesbian. The other two cases are bisexual, so I'm not so sure they even count. And bisexuals who date anyone who is biologically male want that person as a man, not as a woman. If they wanted a woman, they would look for one.

But if the last one could date that person with no trouble, I'm having trouble believing you and I really do live in the same country. Maybe it's because you live in a conservative area; the LG etc. community is smaller, and there's more pressure to pass as straight.

Or maybe they didn't give a [expletive] about the lesbian community. Which is hard to believe, because a lesbian needs to be plugged into that to find a partner.

In any case, I bet a lesbian who'll date a girl in a guy's body is really hard to find.

And with straight women, it's even easier for a guy to find a girl who's willing to be the masculine role- because they have much less social problems. There'll be jokes about who wears the pants, but there are in just about every relationship where the man isn't abusive and domineering, so while it'll take work to find a girl willing to, it's certainly not impossible.

I agree.

But how would they have reacted to a serious relationship? Dating is so short-lived, they probably think, "Well, if she wants to sleep with male trash and get it out of her system, that's one thing, but for a serious relationship, she needs a woman, or she's not a real lesbian."

One of the girls almost got married to the guy and had been with him for 4-5 years. Nobody had much of a problem except one person who gave the occasional jibe, and that wasn't very serious.

Define "nobody." Do you mean nobody she knew? If so, what kinds of people did she know? Straight? Lesbian? Something else?

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Hallucigenia
Only the last one is a true lesbian. The other two cases are bisexual, so I'm not so sure they even count. And bisexuals who date anyone who is biologically male want that person as a man, not as a woman. If they wanted a woman, they would look for one.

As a bisexual person, I've got to say you're oversimplifying things a bit. Bisexuals vary greatly in how important the gender of their partner is to them. Your statement is probably true of some, but plenty of us would be able to date someone who didn't fit it into a rigid binary, and some of us prefer to ignore gender entirely (which is also known as being "pansexual" - there's another thread about it somewhere in here).

What you seem to be missing is the idea that a person could be attracted to another person's intelligence, creativity, sense of humor, athleticism, kindness, emotional sense - anything at all other than their genitals and gender role. And I'm sorry, but that's kind of a big thing to miss.

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Which is why I specified groups, there are tolerant groups that don't care what genitalia the people you're dating have. And some individuals care about the object of their affection enough to ignore the social consequences. I've pointed out that I know and know of lesbians who have married cismen and transmen, lesbians who've had serious relationships with men of all shapes and sizes, and even a lesbian who went out with a "guy" who turned out to be a transgirl because she could sense her female spirit.

Only the last one is a true lesbian. The other two cases are bisexual, so I'm not so sure they even count. And bisexuals who date anyone who is biologically male want that person as a man, not as a woman. If they wanted a woman, they would look for one.

But if the last one could date that person with no trouble, I'm having trouble believing you and I really do live in the same country. Maybe it's because you live in a conservative area; the LG etc. community is smaller, and there's more pressure to pass as straight.

Or maybe they didn't give a [expletive] about the lesbian community. Which is hard to believe, because a lesbian needs to be plugged into that to find a partner.

Hmm, disagree. I'm not sure why you're so certain of each of those points. I personally see no problem with a woman identifying as a lesbian but still having sex with men, or a man, and yet not identifying as a bisexual; but there will be some people who agree and some who disagree with this. I seem to remember an argument revolving around this in the lesbian film Go Fish.

Lisa M. Diamond, ("What does sexual orientation orient? A biobehavioral model distinguishing romantic love and sexual desire," "Emerging perspectives on distinctions between romantic love and sexual desire," etc.) has looked at this to some degree. To employ some AVEN terms (I hope I'm using them correctly), such a woman could be homosexual but demiheteroromantic and/or demiheterosexual, or have a primary romantic and sexual attraction to women and a secondary romantic and/or sexual attraction to men (which she may be unaware of until it happens). I've also read of a lesbian who stayed with her partner through an FTM transition and these partners also described themselves as queer heterosexuals.

I don't see the problem with there being bisexuals who would date transpeople. Are there terms that account for sexual orientations that incorporate various transidentities?

I don't imagine it's true a lesbian needs to be plugged into a lesbian community to find a partner, that would just be one way. Personal ads and random chance must account for some lesbian relationships as well.

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