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KayleeSaeihr

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KayleeSaeihr

So...Background info...I'm probably MTF (doubts..there are always doubts, alot surrounding my being Autistic), I've had crossgender feelings since early puberty, they seem to ebb and flow sometimes, being higher in intensity during my early teens, when I was 20 and now (25-26)...But I'm also married to a bio-female who is also autistic and not attracted to females. Though she's not the girliest of girls (which is fine with me :) ), we're also both asexual.

Neither of us are completely sure how to act or react, she (whom I shall call Renae) seems to be supportive or at least understanding, by offering suggestions on things I can do to explore a feminine side of things. But then sometimes she withdraws and wants nothing to do with the situation. Sometimes I try to get her involved so she doesn't feel like I'm shutting her out, yesterday I suggested to go clothes shopping (there was a shop nearby I wanted to check out), I ended up buying some clothes for me and some pants for her.

But later after we got home and tried them all on (they fit, and the pants I bought were awesomely comfy!), she seemed to withdraw once more. I tried to talk to her, and an argument ensued, she claimed that I'd changed in personality since the resurgence of my crossgender feelings, I denied her claim. It has been an issue between us what would happen if I were to transition, renae doesn't think she could be in a relationship with a girl. As such I've been very careful about making any decisions, because they won't just affect me. However, last night, she said for the first time that she would leave me if I transitioned.

Obviously this makes my decisions even more difficult; like choosing between the pan and the fire (not sure which is which). On top of those considerations, I also have my doubts...

I sometimes doubt the validity of my feelings, often wondering if it's not just expanded autogynephilia, or transvestism...And yet I've never really identified with either of those (possibly because most articles on them seems to be presenting a negative opinion of them). I ponder if I just like wearing girls' clothes and my brain has tried to work out why and has created more feelings and thoughts to fit a preconceived idea...

I have come to the conclusion that I'm not male, or not like any other male out there be they a jock or a nerd. I seem to share more in common with the tomboy girls. In fact I often feel more comfortable around girls than around guys. And yet... I am autistic, it's possible I'll never truly fit in anywhere because of my stunted social skills.

Being Autistic I can't readily identify with most other TG stories out there because they don't always fit; the way I think is different to the way others would.

However in being Autistic; it is often postulated that Autism is an over-expression of the male mindset..With a stark lack of social skills or the ability to innately comprehend social situations...Yet having said that I appear to be ("wanting to be"?) female, and I've often said to various people that I want to be able to socialise as a female. In almost complete opposition to my autism...

But, I did grow up with two sisters, two non-autistic sisters that had friends went out and had fun and did social stuff, I often felt jealous of them. And I wanted to be able to do what they do. I wanted to be like them. It's possible I my desire to be female came from this; "I saw that they could socialise and have fun, and they were girls, I wanted to be like them, I wanted to be a girl".

On another issue...It has been said to me (by a friend and my psychiatrist) that I need to experience being seen as female... I want to be able to try that but I'm not completely sure how to go about it, I figure the right clothes, the right padding, and the right makeup should do the trick...But I worry about society's reaction, what if I'm laughed at or ridiculed, that'll certainly be a turn off. Or what if I'm accepted as is, but still not seen as girl... Or what if I am seen as a girl and I hate it? Or love it? What then!?

So many damn unanswered/unaswerable questions...All this; the question, these feelings, my doubts, and my wife's..."ultimatum"(?) is upsetting to me. I don't know which way to jump...except maybe off a bridge :P

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It has been said to me (by a friend and my psychiatrist) that I need to experience being seen as female... I want to be able to try that but I'm not completely sure how to go about it, I figure the right clothes, the right padding, and the right makeup should do the trick

I think you should do that. There' no other way to know who you really are.

...But I worry about society's reaction, what if I'm laughed at or ridiculed, that'll certainly be a turn off. Or what if I'm accepted as is, but still not seen as girl... Or what if I am seen as a girl and I hate it? Or love it? What then!?

I always tell people 'don't worry about this that didn't occur and maybe never will' (yeah, that's my crappy english :P). I tell you the same now. It's good to be prepared for people's reactions, but worrying to much about them isn't good at all. It's you who is important, not society. Don't listen to people, you know how horrible they can be. Besides, you need to know who you are if you want to be happy.But if you're so afraid, maybe you should spend one day at home as a female so you can 'adapt' you mind to female role. Whatever the result is, it won't be worse that it's now, so don't be afraid.

And when you know who you are, you can start to think about your wife's ultimatum (which I don't get, since people should love each other for who they are, not for what they are). Maybe you won't like being female, so problems with your wife disappear.

I wish you the best of everything :)

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KayleeSaeihr

I wish you the best of everything :)

Thank you and for you comments :)

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GirlInside

You might want to check out my site and see if you identify with anything (the link is in my sig)--I have Asperger's Syndrome, and I'm MTF.

In spite of my bad social skills, I find that I actually fit in quite well in groups of women.

It's important to remember that just because you're a girl in a male body doesn't mean you have to transition. I don't plan on ever transitioning, because I'd be less socially accepted. In fact, as I mention elsewhere, in spite of my masculine physical appearance, 30-40% of women see me as female when they first meet me--and I don't wear anything special, just my usual T-shirt and jeans. I think the reason for this is that I've learned to accept myself as a girl. I hope you can do the same.

Relationships are very tricky when you're trans (see my thread "The Trouble With Transness"). Your wife believes you are a man; she is attracted to men and wants you as a man. If you are really a woman inside, then you are married to her under false pretenses. If that is the case, and you try to be male, someday you won't be able to take it anymore. So my advice is, explore your feelings, and if she doesn't like you as a woman, it's better to find this out now than later when you have kids (which you should absolutely NOT do unless you're 100% certain you are not transgender).

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So...Background info...I'm probably MTF (doubts..there are always doubts, alot surrounding my being Autistic), I've had crossgender feelings since early puberty, they seem to ebb and flow sometimes, being higher in intensity during my early teens, when I was 20 and now (25-26)...But I'm also married to a bio-female who is also autistic and not attracted to females.

That sure can complicate the issue, I do agree. And I imagine that it is the major factor in deciding what to do about dealing with your GID.

Neither of us are completely sure how to act or react, she (whom I shall call Renae) seems to be supportive or at least understanding, by offering suggestions on things I can do to explore a feminine side of things. But then sometimes she withdraws and wants nothing to do with the situation.

Also understandable. I am imagining that she withdraws because it can be difficult for her, yet is supportive because she loves you and acres about you. Does that seem right? I am somewhat guessing, as well as being reminded of other TS people, generally MtF, who were/are married and came to the point of addressing GID.

*big hugs for both of you*

It has been an issue between us what would happen if I were to transition, renae doesn't think she could be in a relationship with a girl. As such I've been very careful about making any decisions, because they won't just affect me. However, last night, she said for the first time that she would leave me if I transitioned.

:o Oh, no! :(

Obviously this makes my decisions even more difficult; like choosing between the pan and the fire (not sure which is which).

Completely understandable.

On top of those considerations, I also have my doubts...

Ah, OK.

I sometimes doubt the validity of my feelings, often wondering if it's not just expanded autogynephilia, or transvestism...And yet I've never really identified with either of those (possibly because most articles on them seems to be presenting a negative opinion of them). I ponder if I just like wearing girls' clothes and my brain has tried to work out why and has created more feelings and thoughts to fit a preconceived idea...

I have come to the conclusion that I'm not male, or not like any other male out there be they a jock or a nerd. I seem to share more in common with the tomboy girls. In fact I often feel more comfortable around girls than around guys. And yet... I am autistic, it's possible I'll never truly fit in anywhere because of my stunted social skills.

Being Autistic I can't readily identify with most other TG stories out there because they don't always fit; the way I think is different to the way others would.

Quite a conundrum. I hope that you eventually come to an understanding of how the GID fits into the whole, complete you, and how best to deal with it and address it.

However in being Autistic; it is often postulated that Autism is an over-expression of the male mindset..With a stark lack of social skills or the ability to innately comprehend social situations...Yet having said that I appear to be ("wanting to be"?) female, and I've often said to various people that I want to be able to socialise as a female. In almost complete opposition to my autism...

But, I did grow up with two sisters, two non-autistic sisters that had friends went out and had fun and did social stuff, I often felt jealous of them. And I wanted to be able to do what they do. I wanted to be like them. It's possible I my desire to be female came from this; "I saw that they could socialise and have fun, and they were girls, I wanted to be like them, I wanted to be a girl".

Oh, wow. I can see how this is complicated.

On another issue...It has been said to me (by a friend and my psychiatrist) that I need to experience being seen as female... I want to be able to try that but I'm not completely sure how to go about it,

Often a good idea, and is also known as the Real Life Test (RLT) that people often go through before certain treatment options (such as surgery) are done. It would be an interesting experience nonetheless.

I figure the right clothes, the right padding, and the right makeup should do the trick...

I hope that things work. And perhaps confidence is an important part of "passing." Are there some MtF people that you know in your area that can help? Perhaps a group, such as people that have group therapy together?

But I worry about society's reaction, what if I'm laughed at or ridiculed, that'll certainly be a turn off. Or what if I'm accepted as is, but still not seen as girl...

To be honest, this can happen, especially at first, and quite often before estrogen has made a lot of changes, and confidence is increased. And it can be brutal sometimes. But if you do meet people in group that have been through that, especially the more difficult times when they do not "pass" well, and are clocked, discriminated against, and generally shat upon just because of who they are, things can and do get better with time. There might be a lot of crying at first (especially when estrogen kicks in!), but things can get better if you do opt to try RLT.

Or what if I am seen as a girl and I hate it? Or love it? What then!?

Perhaps once you see, you will be better able to determine what is the best thing to do afterwards.

So many damn unanswered/unaswerable questions...All this; the question, these feelings, my doubts, and my wife's..."ultimatum"(?) is upsetting to me. I don't know which way to jump...except maybe off a bridge :P

Lot of questions, and yes, some unanswered (such as the GID why?!). I hope that you do not go off of a bridge. Suicide is sometimes an option for GID, but in reality, rare. Perhaps your wife can go to therapy with you? Or perhaps meet other MtF people? Some of the people that I know that were married before transition stayed together. Others did split. And of course, there are some that dealt with the GID together without the spouse transitioning, with love and understanding between them.

Sometimes people simply MUST transition. Sometimes, people can live with GID without transitioning. I do not know what is best for you and Renae.

But whatever you decide, I give you love and hugs and support. :wub:

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I've been seeing your posts on WiG (I hope it's okay to mention that)- so I already have some idea of what's going on, and want to say again that I hope you find happiness. :) I think being married really throws a monkey wrench into it, I'm so thankful that I accepted myself long before I did anything that serious. A lot of people have a hard time making the choice because of their partner, but as GirlInside said- denying yourself won't make you happy. Many people have tried, only to realize that they need to fix this, even if it means losing those they love.

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KayleeSaeihr
You might want to check out my site and see if you identify with anything (the link is in my sig)--I have Asperger's Syndrome, and I'm MTF.

I've seen your site, not sure if I found it via AVEN or through other means heh. I identified with some stuff but not all of it.

In spite of my bad social skills, I find that I actually fit in quite well in groups of women.

It's important to remember that just because you're a girl in a male body doesn't mean you have to transition. I don't plan on ever transitioning, because I'd be less socially accepted. In fact, as I mention elsewhere, in spite of my masculine physical appearance, 30-40% of women see me as female when they first meet me--and I don't wear anything special, just my usual T-shirt and jeans. I think the reason for this is that I've learned to accept myself as a girl. I hope you can do the same.

How does that work/happen?

Relationships are very tricky when you're trans (see my thread "The Trouble With Transness"). Your wife believes you are a man; she is attracted to men and wants you as a man. If you are really a woman inside, then you are married to her under false pretenses. If that is the case, and you try to be male, someday you won't be able to take it anymore. So my advice is, explore your feelings, and if she doesn't like you as a woman, it's better to find this out now than later when you have kids (which you should absolutely NOT do unless you're 100% certain you are not transgender).

We're 0% likely to have children. She doesn't feel that she'd be a good mother, plus the idea of having sex, even for that, is disturbing to both her and me. I don't think there were false pretenses, she was aware of my gender issues before we married, though back then I felt as if I were passed them...I didn't expect the feelings to come back like they have.

Thanks :)

That sure can complicate the issue, I do agree. And I imagine that it is the major factor in deciding what to do about dealing with your GID.

I think my asexuality, genderqueerness and autism are all inter-related, interdependant and connected. They exist because of each other and inspite of each other. It's confusing.

Also understandable. I am imagining that she withdraws because it can be difficult for her, yet is supportive because she loves you and acres about you. Does that seem right? I am somewhat guessing, as well as being reminded of other TS people, generally MtF, who were/are married and came to the point of addressing GID.

Makes sense. :)

Often a good idea, and is also known as the Real Life Test (RLT) that people often go through before certain treatment options (such as surgery) are done. It would be an interesting experience nonetheless.

I hope that things work. And perhaps confidence is an important part of "passing." Are there some MtF people that you know in your area that can help? Perhaps a group, such as people that have group therapy together?

The friend I mention above is MTF, and she knows two other MTF people (whom I've met but didn't really get along with).

To be honest, this can happen, especially at first, and quite often before estrogen has made a lot of changes, and confidence is increased. And it can be brutal sometimes. But if you do meet people in group that have been through that, especially the more difficult times when they do not "pass" well, and are clocked, discriminated against, and generally shat upon just because of who they are, things can and do get better with time. There might be a lot of crying at first (especially when estrogen kicks in!), but things can get better if you do opt to try RLT.

The brutalness is why I'd prefer to avoid it and go straight to hormones...However I need to be able to make that decision, and I can't without experiencing RLE first (lack of information etc).

You've seen my photos in the photo and drag threads... Could I pass as is?

Perhaps once you see, you will be better able to determine what is the best thing to do afterwards.

Indeed.

Lot of questions, and yes, some unanswered (such as the GID why?!). I hope that you do not go off of a bridge. Suicide is sometimes an option for GID, but in reality, rare. Perhaps your wife can go to therapy with you? Or perhaps meet other MtF people? Some of the people that I know that were married before transition stayed together. Others did split. And of course, there are some that dealt with the GID together without the spouse transitioning, with love and understanding between them.

Sometimes people simply MUST transition. Sometimes, people can live with GID without transitioning. I do not know what is best for you and Renae.

But whatever you decide, I give you love and hugs and support. :wub:

I feel that if my and Renae were to break up, it would destroy her. I don't know why, but sometimes I feel as though I'm her support and without it she'd crumble. Perhaps I'm being arrogant or selfish in that belief, but it's also selfless. I hope if I do decide to transition and we do break up, that we can remain friends.

And don't worry, I've no plans to jump off any bridges :P Besides the bridges around here are too small hehe.

Thanks Kelly :)

I've been seeing your posts on WiG (I hope it's okay to mention that)-

I don't mind :)

so I already have some idea of what's going on, and want to say again that I hope you find happiness. :) I think being married really throws a monkey wrench into it, I'm so thankful that I accepted myself long before I did anything that serious. A lot of people have a hard time making the choice because of their partner, but as GirlInside said- denying yourself won't make you happy. Many people have tried, only to realize that they need to fix this, even if it means losing those they love.

I feel really bad in thinking or saying this; but sometimes I regret getting married. I love renae but there are times when I think we'd have both been better off if we'd not gotten married. C'est la vie :: shrugs ::

Also thanks :)

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Complicated problems, most of which I have no handle on. But I can give you a tip on one thing:

On another issue...It has been said to me (by a friend and my psychiatrist) that I need to experience being seen as female... I want to be able to try that but I'm not completely sure how to go about it, I figure the right clothes, the right padding, and the right makeup should do the trick...But I worry about society's reaction, what if I'm laughed at or ridiculed, that'll certainly be a turn off. Or what if I'm accepted as is, but still not seen as girl... Or what if I am seen as a girl and I hate it? Or love it? What then!?

Having 'crossdressed' (as a boy) to find out how people would treat me, I'd say its far easier to start somewhere where no one knows you. Wether its a weekend vakation or a few months of being somewhere else. It's much easier when you don't know anyone, and if things don't go as planned, at least you won't have to live with the consequences of everyone around you remembering.

And try making some friends during that time, if you're good at connecting to people in a short time. That might be difficult, I have no idea how much autism effects being able to walk up to starnger for a chat, but if you can, do. experiment with being in your new self. See what its like to have conversations with people who have never known you as anything but a girl.

Your situation, being married and all, won't suddenly be much easier if you know what its like to be treated like a girl. I wish there was a miracle-medicine for such complications.

Anyway, even if it won't do miracles, I find a gender-experiment-vacation to be a very enlightening experience.

(For me, I found out that trying to be 100% or even 80% boy will never work for me. Few boys would have interrupted a conversation about cars by 'O, hold on! Are those my favorite shoes on sale?!?!?'. I got some weird looks. :P )

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KayleeSaeihr
Having 'crossdressed' (as a boy) to find out how people would treat me, I'd say its far easier to start somewhere where no one knows you. Wether its a weekend vakation or a few months of being somewhere else. It's much easier when you don't know anyone, and if things don't go as planned, at least you won't have to live with the consequences of everyone around you remembering.

And try making some friends during that time, if you're good at connecting to people in a short time. That might be difficult, I have no idea how much autism effects being able to walk up to starnger for a chat, but if you can, do. experiment with being in your new self. See what its like to have conversations with people who have never known you as anything but a girl.

I've crossdressed before but it was always in private (or with my previous girlfriend and now my wife (though to a lesser extent)), never in public, hence my trepidations. But your idea of a vacation/weekend is a good one... I shall investigate.

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I feel really bad in thinking or saying this; but sometimes I regret getting married. I love renae but there are times when I think we'd have both been better off if we'd not gotten married. C'est la vie :: shrugs ::

Also thanks :)

I can understand that. :) You still love her of course, but after seeing some of the pain both parties (the transperson and their cisgendered partner) go through during their spouse's coming out and eventual transition, I can't imagine it's hard to believe you would both be better off without so many things tying you together. I hope you two can find a way to work through this- but that's not always possible.

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KayleeSaeihr
I feel really bad in thinking or saying this; but sometimes I regret getting married. I love renae but there are times when I think we'd have both been better off if we'd not gotten married. C'est la vie :: shrugs ::

Also thanks :)

I can understand that. :) You still love her of course, but after seeing some of the pain both parties (the transperson and their cisgendered partner) go through during their spouse's coming out and eventual transition, I can't imagine it's hard to believe you would both be better off without so many things tying you together. I hope you two can find a way to work through this- but that's not always possible.

Yeah :mellow:

Tonight she asked me; "Why can't you just stay Josh for me?"

(josh being my male name)

I couldn't really think of a response.

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Tonight she asked me; "Why can't you just stay Josh for me?"

(josh being my male name)

Josh might be your name and one typically male, but Josh (you) is someone who is gender variant. That is who you are, with the name Josh or not.

*hugs to both you and Renea*

On a number of occasions, the spouse does end up staying with the transitioning MtF or FtM. It may be possible here (I do not know her, so I do not know, but I have seen a number of times when the couples did stay together)

***

To be honest, this can happen, especially at first, and quite often before estrogen has made a lot of changes, and confidence is increased. And it can be brutal sometimes. But if you do meet people in group that have been through that, especially the more difficult times when they do not "pass" well, and are clocked, discriminated against, and generally shat upon just because of who they are, things can and do get better with time. There might be a lot of crying at first (especially when estrogen kicks in!), but things can get better if you do opt to try RLT.

The brutalness is why I'd prefer to avoid it and go straight to hormones...

Years ago, with the first two or so versions of the SoC, RLT was required before hormones, which seems to be putting the cart before the horse. Nowadays, hormones often come first, for that very reason.

However I need to be able to make that decision, and I can't without experiencing RLE first (lack of information etc).

Understood, and that was the reasoning behind the original intent of the early versions of the SoC.

You've seen my photos in the photo and drag threads... Could I pass as is?

I think so. A large part of “passing” is confidence, though. However, I think that you can do it. I was under the impression when I first saw that photos that you had already started HRT.

One option is to attend a transgender convention. They are generally at hotels and have hundreds of attendees, with talks given by surgeons and doctors and post-ops and such. And of course lots of parties and dinners and funstuff. People who are just starting to transition or are thinking about it can go ahead and be themselves (as their real gender). You will be with a bunch of other people and no one will give you a hard time. And you can meet a lot of people in various stages of transition as well as lots of long-term post-ops. Have a few drinks and talk to people, attend some seminars and learn about transition issues, and just be yourself.

Then go out with some friends as yourself (the real, female or non-binary-gender you—whatever you really are inside). Perhaps join group therapy to have a bunch of TS/TG friends. Go out more. Build up confidence.

If longer-term RLT then seems optimal, HRT can help. HRT can be therapeutic (some people stop at that point—HRT calms them and they feel more themselves, and they know that they are making positive steps in addressing their GID, and they of course become more feminine or masculine). And HRT can of course help people “pass.” Sometimes, when I see someone (FtM or MtF) that I met when they were just starting HRT and have not seen them for a few years, I see such drastic changes that it can be hard to believe. I have seen some people that are having a difficult time passing, and then when I see them years later, I can hardly believe that they were once presenting as the other gender. They have wonderful success now as their real selves.

Do feel free to think before making decisions. In the end (perhaps not right away), things can work out wonderfully.

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Tonight she asked me; "Why can't you just stay Josh for me?"

(josh being my male name)

Recently I very sloppily asked my partner to do something that I thought would require them taking female hormones (breastfeed the kid we plan to have so I could get top surgery now, if your curious). I knew they wouldn't be okay with it, so was very bad at asking, and didn't know that men could lactate without the hormones. So, basically, what they herad was "I want you to take something, risk permanently changing & damaging your body at the cost of large amounts of money, causing you to have the very same source of dysphoria I do just so I can get rid of my dysphoria".

It's not exactly the same thing- but it's kind of the opposite situation. If your romantic orientation swung so you were only attracted to males, you wouldn't expect her to take T and get SRS for you- because you know she wouldn't be happy and it isn't who she is. It's different, admittedly, but she's still asking you to live a lie that you may not be able to live.

The brutalness is why I'd prefer to avoid it and go straight to hormones...

An MtF said that you generally know if you're supposed to be taking hormones or not well before the first permanent effects take place. I don't know if that really helps or not- but that the first changes you get aren't really permanent (and you should look into this yourself and make sure- I'm just going on what I've been told), and it'll help you realize what you want, it might make it easier to justify taking a step like that when you aren't totally sure.

You've seen my photos in the photo and drag threads... Could I pass as is?

Some people said your picture looked like a woman- I agree with them, but wasn't sure if I should point it out. I think you can pass- but agree that you have to be careful.

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KayleeSaeihr
Tonight she asked me; "Why can't you just stay Josh for me?"

(josh being my male name)

Josh might be your name and one typically male, but Josh (you) is someone who is gender variant. That is who you are, with the name Josh or not.

*hugs to both you and Renea*

On a number of occasions, the spouse does end up staying with the transitioning MtF or FtM. It may be possible here (I do not know her, so I do not know, but I have seen a number of times when the couples did stay together)

Tonight she asked me; "Why can't you just stay Josh for me?"

(josh being my male name)

Recently I very sloppily asked my partner to do something that I thought would require them taking female hormones (breastfeed the kid we plan to have so I could get top surgery now, if your curious). I knew they wouldn't be okay with it, so was very bad at asking, and didn't know that men could lactate without the hormones. So, basically, what they herad was "I want you to take something, risk permanently changing & damaging your body at the cost of large amounts of money, causing you to have the very same source of dysphoria I do just so I can get rid of my dysphoria".

It's not exactly the same thing- but it's kind of the opposite situation. If your romantic orientation swung so you were only attracted to males, you wouldn't expect her to take T and get SRS for you- because you know she wouldn't be happy and it isn't who she is. It's different, admittedly, but she's still asking you to live a lie that you may not be able to live.

I can't be sure I'm not just "confused", so I don't really know what my internal self is. That's mostly why I couldn't respond to her request. I did say that I'm me, I'll always be me even if my body changed. But I don't think that's what she would've liked to hear.

You've seen my photos in the photo and drag threads... Could I pass as is?

I think so. A large part of “passing” is confidence, though. However, I think that you can do it. I was under the impression when I first saw that photos that you had already started HRT.

You're not the first person to say as much. :)

One option is to attend a transgender convention. They are generally at hotels and have hundreds of attendees, with talks given by surgeons and doctors and post-ops and such. And of course lots of parties and dinners and funstuff. People who are just starting to transition or are thinking about it can go ahead and be themselves (as their real gender). You will be with a bunch of other people and no one will give you a hard time. And you can meet a lot of people in various stages of transition as well as lots of long-term post-ops. Have a few drinks and talk to people, attend some seminars and learn about transition issues, and just be yourself.

Then go out with some friends as yourself (the real, female or non-binary-gender you—whatever you really are inside). Perhaps join group therapy to have a bunch of TS/TG friends. Go out more. Build up confidence.

If longer-term RLT then seems optimal, HRT can help. HRT can be therapeutic (some people stop at that point—HRT calms them and they feel more themselves, and they know that they are making positive steps in addressing their GID, and they of course become more feminine or masculine). And HRT can of course help people “pass.” Sometimes, when I see someone (FtM or MtF) that I met when they were just starting HRT and have not seen them for a few years, I see such drastic changes that it can be hard to believe. I have seen some people that are having a difficult time passing, and then when I see them years later, I can hardly believe that they were once presenting as the other gender. They have wonderful success now as their real selves.

Do feel free to think before making decisions. In the end (perhaps not right away), things can work out wonderfully.

The conference is a good idea, though I'm not sure there are many here in Perth. I shall investigate :)

Even though I can't be 100% sure that HRT is the right option, it's still a very attractive prospect. I ponder about that... Is it attractive because I intuitively know that's what I want/need? Or am I just fantasising?

The brutalness is why I'd prefer to avoid it and go straight to hormones...

An MtF said that you generally know if you're supposed to be taking hormones or not well before the first permanent effects take place. I don't know if that really helps or not- but that the first changes you get aren't really permanent (and you should look into this yourself and make sure- I'm just going on what I've been told), and it'll help you realize what you want, it might make it easier to justify taking a step like that when you aren't totally sure.

The problem here is my psychiatrist (he that would on-refer to one who could prescribe) "recommended" I get some experience (he did say only an outing or two), just so I know for sure. Though I got the impression he already knew which way I'd decide after I got such experience.

You've seen my photos in the photo and drag threads... Could I pass as is?

Some people said your picture looked like a woman- I agree with them, but wasn't sure if I should point it out. I think you can pass- but agree that you have to be careful.

Feel free to point anything out :)

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You've seen my photos in the photo and drag threads... Could I pass as is?

I think so. A large part of “passing” is confidence, though. However, I think that you can do it. I was under the impression when I first saw that photos that you had already started HRT.

Having just gone through the entire Androgynous look thread to recheck your picture, I'd say: yeah. absolutely.

If you would have told me that the person in that picture was biologically female, I wouldn't have doubted it at all. Kelly is right though: a large part of it is confidence. and of course there are details like voice and body-language that don't show in a picture.

But just seeing the picture: yes, I think you could easily pass as female.

-----

(Language is a tricky thing here, technicaly an MTF doesn't 'pass as female' since she is female. She just 'passes as herself'. But what if you're unsure? O well, I assume you understand that I meant no disrespect by using the phrase 'pass as female'. )

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KayleeSaeihr
(Language is a tricky thing here, technicaly an MTF doesn't 'pass as female' since she is female. She just 'passes as herself'. But what if you're unsure? O well, I assume you understand that I meant no disrespect by using the phrase 'pass as female'. )

No offence taken at all :)

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Elliott Ford

Just a suggestion, which you can ignore if it makes things more complicated, but:

A friend of mine, male-bodied with a partner of ten years and a five year old son, came out a few months ago as transgendered, more particularly as bigendered. She (that's her "default" pronoun) is both male AND female at different times. When she's female she wears female clothes and when she's male she wears male clothes. She is, admittedly, sometimes too embarassed to be en femme in public but she is out to her partner, her friends, her family and her colleagues. She brings clothing of both genders to work with her.

Her (female, non-trans) partner is fine with it.

I don't know if this could be revelant to your situation. She has changed her name to an ambigious name and is having her facial hair lasered off. She plans to go on female hormones at some point to feminise her appearance but as far as i'm aware she does not want surgery as she wants to be able to pass as either gender.

Feel free to ignore this if it isn't relevant. Also feel free to PM me as another trans person with autism if you need someone to talk to :cake:

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I don't know if you've heard of Laura's Playground- but it's a trans site. There's a really accepting Partner's area, for partners of transpeople. It might help Renae, if she's okay with talking about this sort of thing on forums. The people there know your point of view, but also respect the problem partners can have dealing with this, so respect both sides.

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KayleeSaeihr
Just a suggestion, which you can ignore if it makes things more complicated, but:

A friend of mine, male-bodied with a partner of ten years and a five year old son, came out a few months ago as transgendered, more particularly as bigendered. She (that's her "default" pronoun) is both male AND female at different times. When she's female she wears female clothes and when she's male she wears male clothes. She is, admittedly, sometimes too embarassed to be en femme in public but she is out to her partner, her friends, her family and her colleagues. She brings clothing of both genders to work with her.

Her (female, non-trans) partner is fine with it.

I don't know if this could be revelant to your situation. She has changed her name to an ambigious name and is having her facial hair lasered off. She plans to go on female hormones at some point to feminise her appearance but as far as i'm aware she does not want surgery as she wants to be able to pass as either gender.

Feel free to ignore this if it isn't relevant.

Somehow I don't think renae would be amenable to me crossdressing. She said she would be when we first met each other, but I didn't really do it (no opportunity at the time; lack of clothes), but now that I am she seems uncomfortable with it all.

I think it's male or nothing with her, though I believe she doesn't want to be that way, that's just the way she thinks.

Also feel free to PM me as another trans person with autism if you need someone to talk to :cake:

Thanks, though I'm terrible at thinking up topic for private conversation :)

I don't know if you've heard of Laura's Playground- but it's a trans site. There's a really accepting Partner's area, for partners of transpeople. It might help Renae, if she's okay with talking about this sort of thing on forums. The people there know your point of view, but also respect the problem partners can have dealing with this, so respect both sides.

Thanks, I passed it on, and she's having a browse now. :)

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Somehow I don't think renae would be amenable to me crossdressing. She said she would be when we first met each other, but I didn't really do it (no opportunity at the time; lack of clothes), but now that I am she seems uncomfortable with it all.

I think it's male or nothing with her, though I believe she doesn't want to be that way, that's just the way she thinks.

Her first being okay with crossdressing and later disliking any non-male behaviour doesn't sound like a weird reaction to me.

Partner's are often open to something at first and later dislike every aspect of it because they don't like where it might be going.

Sort of like... an asexual might feel okay doing some hugging and fondling with a S.O. at first, but when the S.O. starts wanting sex, the asexual might start to be uncomfortable with every aspect of intimacy, for fear or where the partner might be wanting to go.

Not an answer, just an observation.

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  • 2 months later...

Hey there ive been browsing AVEN for months now and have seen some of your other posts, i thought you were female (tomboy) until i read this....i think as well a weekend away, someplace new, dressing as a female, would give you some real insight. You're lucky in the sense that you look quite androgynous u could pass as either, my body is so stereotypical of my gender even though i'm not. Best of luck to u

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KayleeSaeihr
Hey there ive been browsing AVEN for months now and have seen some of your other posts, i thought you were female (tomboy) until i read this....

Damn I ruined the illusion :P

Thanks for saying so though :)

i think as well a weekend away, someplace new, dressing as a female, would give you some real insight.

I should, but the possible destinations are limited.

You're lucky in the sense that you look quite androgynous u could pass as either, my body is so stereotypical of my gender even though i'm not. Best of luck to u

I don't know if you've seen my other photos... But my avatar and profile pic were carefully chosen to perpetuate the illusion of what I want to be. :P

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KayleeSaeihr

I feel like I should update this thread...

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KayleeSaeihr

I'm currently seeing a psychiatrist (as well a psychologist). The Iatrist is mostly a gatekeeper toward HRT and the like, he wanted me to write a piece to "convince him" that I want/need HRT...

I went one better and wrote two! (mostly because I fucked up the first one)

I've spent the past few weeks pondering how best to phrase this...I've kinda worked it out in my head; I'm aware that you said I need to write this to convince you, but I believe that you feel that I'm the one that needs convincing. And you would be correct. I was never at a point where I felt like Estrogen and Hormone intervention was the best option. Though it did at times seem like the only option. I had all these gender feelings since puberty, and often tried to ignore or supress them. Crossdressing helped give it an outlet, but it never seemed enough; like being really hungry and only allowed a mouthful.

At 20 I sought a psychiatrist (back in Victoria), but he seemed to believe my feelings were the product of learned behaviour, I wasn't quite sure what he meant, but I figured my gender feelings were false and tried to ignore and supress them, obviously that didn't work or I wouldn't be seeing you and Maddelena Torre. My thoughts were if I couldn't supress or ignore the feelings, and cross dressing wasn't enough what was the next step? I figured hormones. Change my body to suit how I feel I want it to be.

Note how I said "feel I want it to be". My thinking is geared toward reason and logic, and whilst I certainly feel emotions I find it difficult to identify some of them, and work out how and why I'm feeling them. There is very little knowledge here. I have only feelings to go by, and there is much I do not 'know for sure'. The only thing I do know for sure is that I do not like/enjoy/feel comfortable in my current state. Body and facial hair irritates me, my voice offends me, the rough feeling of my skin, my hair. I do my best to mitigate these dysmorphic(?) feelings, through shaving, moisturising, styling my hair and Maddelena is trying to connect me with a speech therapist/voice trainer.... But it's not enough.

Estrogen and hormone intervention along those lines is a risky thing, that much I am aware of. I do not know if it's the right decision for me, I feel the only way I could possibly know is if I were to take it. Kinda like trying a new activity. But that can be a dangerous path to go down, if I decide that HRT isn't for me, after I've been on it for a while I could put myself in a difficult position.

There is another option that I feel is a good option. I have no qualms about heading down this particular path at all. Anti-Androgens. I'm no medical expert, but far as I am aware it could lessen (to a degree) some of the masculine secondary sexual characteristics that distress me, and could be seen as a sort of "toe-in-the-water" as far as estrogen is concerned. If I find that anti-androgens don't sit well with me then that would be a clear sign that estrogen is not the right path. However if AA is good decision, then we could reassess the situation further down the line.

Addendum:

I started writing out the previous piece, and send it, before I re-read my notebook and saw exactly what it was you suggested I write out. Scracth one up for lack of planning...whoops. So this is an addendum or additional to what I wrote before.

What do I identify as? That's a key question. I do not quite know, it's difficult to identify as female whilst I have a male body, like desperately wanting to play a particular sport but you don't have the equipment. I know what I don't identify as. I don't identify as male. I've never seen myself as part of the "male group" or the "boy's club". Everytime I go into a men's only area I feel like I'm invading, like I don't belong. I strongly am attracted to a "tomboy" or "nerd girl" kind of identity, but it's not like I'm trying to find a specific label to apply to myself. I have my own internal identity which doesn't quite match any pre-existing pigeon hole, so when asked what my identity is, I have to squish or stretch it to fit other people's pre-conceived notions. Which means it's all very inaccurate.

I identify as "not-male". In a binary world that mean I would be female, but the world isn't binary...And therein lies a problem.

As I wish to move away from maleness anti androgens would be beneficial; with AA I believe there would be some suppression of testosterone and other androgens..obviously. This would lessen some of the male secondary sexual characteristics, such as a decrease in body hair. So with AA and general maintenance I could attempt to pull off a more androgynous appearence, which I do desire, greatly.

That would be a starting point. Something to get some "data" from, to get some "feeling" from. If I like being androgyous and it's not enough then HRT would be the next logical step. If I don't like being androgynous then we can cease AA and go back to the drawing board as it were. That's an expectation. And a key one. Because I have no idea what it'll feel like, so I have no basis for judgement. Which makes it really difficult for me to make any concrete decision, or a decision I'd be happy making. Like a blind leap.

So if AA is good, and being androgynous is good but not enough, the next step would be HRT. With which I would expect the development of some female secondary sexual characteristics such as fat redistribution, breasts, softening of the skin, etc. There might be some mood changes as would be expected with hormone fluctuations, though I would expect the biggest 'mood' or 'affect' change would come from having a body that I better identify with.

Alot this is stuff I've read; just rote knowledge. I can only know what I have knowledge of. Someone else can just know something based on a feeling, that is a difficult skill for me to grasp... My feelings, as I've said, are hard to put into words... I'm attracted to the idea of going on HRT. Even more so about lowering my testosterone. Beyond that, it's just a desire.

Allow me to relay a recent anecdote, in my garage there is a storage room. In that room I discovered my wife's old chest protector from her martial arts training. This protector is made of plastic and has the shape of breasts (obviously). I wore this under a t-shirt I had and looked in the mirror, and I liked the shape of what I saw. It was weird, the first time I actually liked the shape of my body.

I have these feelings and they cause me some amount of distress, in that I have these unattainable desires and wants. I look for solutions but beyond cross dressing or transition there doesn't seem to be much at all... I've tried cross dressing and whilst I do like it, it's not enough, so transition would be the next step. But I don't feel comfortable transitioning without some body changes and voice changes, otherwise I feel it's too obvious to the eyes of the others that I'm "really a guy", and I fear the possible negative repercussions of that.

Sometimes it feels like I'm trapped in some kind of Catch-22 loop; I can't know if I would be happy as a girl unless I am a girl which I can't do without going on HRT which I can't do without knowing if I'd be happy as a girl. It's intensely frustrating. I just want some answers, some solutions. And the one I am drawn to, positives and negatives all of it, is transitioning, even if it's just transitioning to androgynous.

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  • 2 weeks later...

wow u could write a book with all that! ;)

im female would really rather be male. wanna swap? hehe

(my bizarre sense of humor aside, things seem to be moving forward 4u, im glad you seem to be doing well ) :D

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Sorry about the late response, I haven't seen this thread in a few months.

You might want to check out my site and see if you identify with anything (the link is in my sig)--I have Asperger's Syndrome, and I'm MTF.

I've seen your site, not sure if I found it via AVEN or through other means heh. I identified with some stuff but not all of it.

Which stuff did you identify with?

In spite of my bad social skills, I find that I actually fit in quite well in groups of women.

It's important to remember that just because you're a girl in a male body doesn't mean you have to transition. I don't plan on ever transitioning, because I'd be less socially accepted. In fact, as I mention elsewhere, in spite of my masculine physical appearance, 30-40% of women see me as female when they first meet me--and I don't wear anything special, just my usual T-shirt and jeans. I think the reason for this is that I've learned to accept myself as a girl. I hope you can do the same.

How does that work/happen?

I think people read the energy a person projects--little clues from mannerisms and reactions to things. My speech is very feminine (I sound like an older woman over the phone), as are my gestures.

An analogy might help. I saw something on the Travel Channel about Berlin. The tour guide was extremely dark-skinned, but because he spoke English with a perfect German accent, and the camera only saw him from the back on his bike, I thought the dark colors on his arms and head were because he was wearing a black hooded shirt under his vest, with black gloves and a black helmet. Because we have an image of Europeans as white, I assumed he was also white and went to other explanations before skin color. It wasn't until he turned around and I saw his face that I knew he was a German of African descent.

Similarly, I think the assumption that anyone as feminine as me must be biologically female leads some to other explanations for my physical appearance; maybe my hormones are out of balance, they probably think, or maybe I have some Neanderthal ancestry, or maybe I'm older than I look (testosterone levels increase after menopause), or maybe I'm "just" a girl who isn't very good-looking. I've been "ma'amed" from two feet away, under harsh lights, with half a day's beard growth (and I have brown hair and heavy stubble).

Relationships are very tricky when you're trans (see my thread "The Trouble With Transness"). Your wife believes you are a man; she is attracted to men and wants you as a man. If you are really a woman inside, then you are married to her under false pretenses. If that is the case, and you try to be male, someday you won't be able to take it anymore. So my advice is, explore your feelings, and if she doesn't like you as a woman, it's better to find this out now than later when you have kids (which you should absolutely NOT do unless you're 100% certain you are not transgender).

We're 0% likely to have children. She doesn't feel that she'd be a good mother, plus the idea of having sex, even for that, is disturbing to both her and me. I don't think there were false pretenses, she was aware of my gender issues before we married, though back then I felt as if I were passed them...I didn't expect the feelings to come back like they have.

Thanks :)

Well, that's great.

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KayleeSaeihr
wow u could write a book with all that! ;)

im female would really rather be male. wanna swap? hehe

(my bizarre sense of humor aside, things seem to be moving forward 4u, im glad you seem to be doing well ) :D

Thanks :) I've actually got a book with stuff like this in it, I need to add more to it...

If body swaps were available, I'd SO be there.

Sorry about the late response, I haven't seen this thread in a few months.
You might want to check out my site and see if you identify with anything (the link is in my sig)--I have Asperger's Syndrome, and I'm MTF.

I've seen your site, not sure if I found it via AVEN or through other means heh. I identified with some stuff but not all of it.

Which stuff did you identify with?

I can't recall specifically, I think mostly your history

In spite of my bad social skills, I find that I actually fit in quite well in groups of women.

It's important to remember that just because you're a girl in a male body doesn't mean you have to transition. I don't plan on ever transitioning, because I'd be less socially accepted. In fact, as I mention elsewhere, in spite of my masculine physical appearance, 30-40% of women see me as female when they first meet me--and I don't wear anything special, just my usual T-shirt and jeans. I think the reason for this is that I've learned to accept myself as a girl. I hope you can do the same.

How does that work/happen?

I think people read the energy a person projects--little clues from mannerisms and reactions to things. My speech is very feminine (I sound like an older woman over the phone), as are my gestures.

An analogy might help. I saw something on the Travel Channel about Berlin. The tour guide was extremely dark-skinned, but because he spoke English with a perfect German accent, and the camera only saw him from the back on his bike, I thought the dark colors on his arms and head were because he was wearing a black hooded shirt under his vest, with black gloves and a black helmet. Because we have an image of Europeans as white, I assumed he was also white and went to other explanations before skin color. It wasn't until he turned around and I saw his face that I knew he was a German of African descent.

Similarly, I think the assumption that anyone as feminine as me must be biologically female leads some to other explanations for my physical appearance; maybe my hormones are out of balance, they probably think, or maybe I have some Neanderthal ancestry, or maybe I'm older than I look (testosterone levels increase after menopause), or maybe I'm "just" a girl who isn't very good-looking. I've been "ma'amed" from two feet away, under harsh lights, with half a day's beard growth (and I have brown hair and heavy stubble).

Ah... I have no such luck. I'm male, even when I look androgynous or slightly feminine I still get called "Sir" or "Gentleman"... *sigh*

Relationships are very tricky when you're trans (see my thread "The Trouble With Transness"). Your wife believes you are a man; she is attracted to men and wants you as a man. If you are really a woman inside, then you are married to her under false pretenses. If that is the case, and you try to be male, someday you won't be able to take it anymore. So my advice is, explore your feelings, and if she doesn't like you as a woman, it's better to find this out now than later when you have kids (which you should absolutely NOT do unless you're 100% certain you are not transgender).

We're 0% likely to have children. She doesn't feel that she'd be a good mother, plus the idea of having sex, even for that, is disturbing to both her and me. I don't think there were false pretenses, she was aware of my gender issues before we married, though back then I felt as if I were passed them...I didn't expect the feelings to come back like they have.

Thanks :)

Well, that's great.

Great isn't the word I'd use ;)

=====

Here's another thing I wrote for my psychologist (different from my psychiatrist :P )

My "characteristics" are hard for me to define but I shall try...

I don't know what my personality is, or at least not in a way I can quantify...My Myers Briggs personality subtype varies between INTJ and INTP, that would indicate I'm introverted, a quiet personality. I'm also intuitive, as opposed to sensing. This would seem to contradict how I perceive myself, as one who value concrete information as opposed to hunches or gut feelings. And yet intuitive people are pattern seekers which would fit in with my autism quite nicely (much like a puzzle piece). I'm of the thinking style of decision making, though I do also seek some of the aspects of a feeling decision making type (such as reaching a harmony for all parties). The last letter varies alot sometimes I'll get J other times P, so I guess I waver alot in my personality changing to meet my needs as they arise. So I'm a quiet person that enjoy socialising but isn't very good at it, who collates information gathered on a pattern, or big picture bias, but my decision making can vary alot. I suppose I have the kind of personality that would fit either gender, but probably more "stereotypically" acceptable in a female.

My interests are of the nerdy/geeky sort. Computers, Star Trek, sci fi, gaming, reading/writing etc. Ostensibly seen as male interests, which would seem to contradict the stereotype of "sporty raucous men". But there are many types of persons. Not many girls enjoy gaming, but there is alot of them that enjoy Sci Fi, and Reading/Writing. Computers could fit any gender, but the stereotype is male. So my interests are probably seen as more male based, but not exclusively.

My style of interaction is a bit haphazard and depends largely on who I'm with and how they're interacting with me. I'm not exactly going to be open and pleasant with people that treat me with disdain. As a general rule I'm an open person, and I like to have discussions on many topics, but mostly my interests. I'm more interested in discussing 'stories' than 'events'. Suzanne feels that I'm different when I'm interacting with Amber, we do stuff and interact in ways that Suzanne and I never have (according to Suzanne). It largely depends on who I'm with as to how I'll interact with them.

I don't think my personality will change if I transitioned, nor my interests. However my style of interaction more than likely will, people will treat me different based on their own biases and I'll respond differently, as such it may "appear" that my personality is different. Suzanne says that I will be different, and that she can already see it in me (being different now than from when we met)(but so is she). If people see me as something I'll likely fill the pigeon hole, simply because that's how I am, I think. Which could be why I'm having these gender issues, people see me as male, and I intuitively mold myself to their expectations, but I'm rebelling against their expectations, I want to be different, but don't know how?

In terms of stereotypes I'd likely be a 'tomboy', or a 'nerdy girl'. Not an ultra-femmey-femme girl; what I wear most of the time now is likely what I would wear as a girl (though I would wear skirts more often). It's the kind of girl that I am often attracted to, kind of androgynous.

The positives to this, from a personal point of view would be...well like a volume of water being forced into a container that doesn't fit it, and pressure is applied to the water to make it fit, and then the water is moved to a container that contains it easier, without pressure... Like that..If that made any sense.

Negatives to that is that some tomboys and nerdy girls aren't seen as "real women", maybe a bit childish. But I think society is rapidly changing that opinion.

Really I can't think of positives or negatives...

If I was clearly transgender, and didn't pass well or wasn't very stealthy, the negatives to this would be less social acceptance than either male or female. Possible ridicule, not being taken seriously, and possibly even violence. Clearly transgendered people are on a lower social pecking order than most people.

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*hugs Saeihr*

I don't think my personality will change if I transitioned, nor my interests.

I would imagine that they would not. You would still be you.

In terms of stereotypes I'd likely be a 'tomboy', or a 'nerdy girl'.

You are my kind of girl. 8)

If I was clearly transgender, and didn't pass well or wasn't very stealthy, the negatives to this would be less social acceptance than either male or female. Possible ridicule, not being taken seriously, and possibly even violence.

That might be a possibility. But it also might not really be so bad.

Clearly transgendered people are on a lower social pecking order than most people.

:(

That seems true, too. I hope that one day it will not be. At least in certain places (and certain internet places such as AVEN) TS people are treated as real people. But central to part of the issue is that there are many places where TS/TG people are not all that welcome and are not treated all that well. :(

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KayleeSaeihr
*hugs Saeihr*

Thanks :)

I don't think my personality will change if I transitioned, nor my interests.

I would imagine that they would not. You would still be you.

I would hope so ;)

My partner feels differently, she thinks I would change, be slightly different, not the same as when she met me.

In terms of stereotypes I'd likely be a 'tomboy', or a 'nerdy girl'.

You are my kind of girl. 8)

nerd.gif

If I was clearly transgender, and didn't pass well or wasn't very stealthy, the negatives to this would be less social acceptance than either male or female. Possible ridicule, not being taken seriously, and possibly even violence.

That might be a possibility. But it also might not really be so bad.

Clearly transgendered people are on a lower social pecking order than most people.

:(

That seems true, too. I hope that one day it will not be. At least in certain places (and certain internet places such as AVEN) TS people are treated as real people. But central to part of the issue is that there are many places where TS/TG people are not all that welcome and are not treated all that well. :(

Yeah, definitely something to be mindful of if I transition.

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