How to get to heaven

[EricK]

Yes, I'm a Christian. The 'Heaven debate' part of this thread, I'm keeping out of at the present time.

This is just for those that are interested and to help find other Christians so we can chat and what not.

That is more of interest to me right now. I became a Christian in my early 20s and since then, I've always identified as a single Christian. As of the start of this year I now idenfity as an Aromantic Asexual Christian - It makes going to a Church, which is becoming increasingly young family based, seem fairly alienating at the moment. This may be partly because of the church but also me coming to terms with my asexuality. So, yes 'finding' other Asexual Christians to 'Chat and what not' for support sounds right up my street.

In that case I would recommend one of these threads. Philosophy, Politics 'n Science is not a great place for meeting people, it's more for debating.

In fact even religious debate doesn't really belong in here. It's not philosophy, politics or science.

[Shadow girl]

My idea of how to get into Heaven is simple: be a decent person, don't do any major bad stuff like murder & etc. Don't waterboard people, don't steal little kids off the playground, don't nuke the Earth, stuff like that... I think Hell is for really crappy people like Hitler & Ted Bundy & Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't think you end up in Hell for skipping church like twice in your life or something, or eating a hamburger on Friday. I think God is bigger than that. Comments, anyone?

You can't get to heave by works they are insignificant in the eyes of God I mean yeah sure you should do the right thing but you got to believe and pray for salvation

This diagram illustrates that God is holy and people are sinful. A great gulf separates us. The arrows illustrate that we are continually trying to reach God and the abundant life through our own efforts, such as a good life, philosophy, or religion -- but we inevitably fail.

Let me ask you just one question. Do you believe?

[Shadow girl]

I don't think you go to Hell for being a Hindu, or anything like that... i.e. for just "not" being a Christian. I think to go to Hell, you need to be really, really bad. I would think most people get to Heaven.

That's my biggest gripe with Christianity. I you go by the Bible, everybody that doesn't believe in Jesus goes to Hell. Period. No middle ground, no grey area.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

Leading a good life, serving your fellow man, leaving the world in a better state than you found it, but not believing in Jesus = being just as bad as a murderer / rapist / paedophile because God thinks you deserve to tortured with them for eternity once you die.

That just doesn't fly with me.

God doesn't send people to Hell. They send themselves there when the reject the truth and salvation.

It hurts God when people go there.

I try not to post anything threatening but the truth is what sets you free. You can refer to an early thread about Hell here.

Yes, I'm a Christian. The 'Heaven debate' part of this thread, I'm keeping out of at the present time.

This is just for those that are interested and to help find other Christians so we can chat and what not.

That is more of interest to me right now. I became a Christian in my early 20s and since then, I've always identified as a single Christian. As of the start of this year I now idenfity as an Aromantic Asexual Christian - It makes going to a Church, which is becoming increasingly young family based, seem fairly alienating at the moment. This may be partly because of the church but also me coming to terms with my asexuality. So, yes 'finding' other Asexual Christians to 'Chat and what not' for support sounds right up my street.

In that case I would recommend one of these threads. Philosophy, Politics 'n Science is not a great place for meeting people, it's more for debating.

In fact even religious debate doesn't really belong in here. It's not philosophy, politics or science.

We should include religion in here. This is also up for educational purposes.

[endplusone]

Guess I better get my trampoline out.

Edit: I'd include religion in this area of discussion on the board, but mostly because people's religious or non-religious background is going to influence philosophical outlook and attitude toward political events. You can certainly philosophize about religion, question the politics of religions, and many religious prescriptions (morality, questioning afterlife, etc.) overlap with philosophical questions, but in terms of collective characteristics of the belief system, set of shared rituals and practices, and so on, it becomes more like an organization or culture and not really a philosophy.

Another Edit: Of course, I can certainly see the difference between topics like "What is God? Does God exist?" and "This is what God is and no one can question my analysis in this thread". The point of philosophy is to engage in discussion and debate, presenting multiple sides and challenging one another's views and arguments.

[Anti-stud]

God doesn't send people to Hell. They send themselves there when the reject the truth and salvation.

It hurts God when people go there.

It hurts Him?

But He is supposedly all powerful. Why not just change the rules? Can't He snatch good people up from Hell? Does He have no power there? Or does he just not want to?

[Shadow girl]

God doesn't send people to Hell. They send themselves there when the reject the truth and salvation.

It hurts God when people go there.

It hurts Him?

But He is supposedly all powerful. Why not just change the rules? Can't He snatch good people up from Hell? Does He have no power there? Or does he just not want to?

Yes

I don't know why and I wonder the same thing. But I'll try to answer from what I know. We must make the decision ourselves to come to Christ when we do we get a renewed spirit because when sin entered the world we are born spiritually dead and the spiritually dead stew in there own sins. We have all sinned and all fall short of God but the decision to have a renewed spirit is left to us because God gave us free will.

Hell was created for Satan (the devil) and his fallen angels. When he wanted to be God . Because of they're sins they spiritually died. Then Satan came to trick Adam and Eve into eating the forbidden fruit. This was the fall of man. But God wanted us enough that he sent his only son to die on the cross to take on our sins so we could have a relationship with him.

Hell is separation from God he has no part in it.

[dalsgaard]

How to get to heaven?

Is there anything beyond death?

Were we with God before we came into being?

I seem to remember blissful times of peace and well-being. Equanimity and no suffering. Like floating on a cloud, the memory of this is so distant that I cannot place it on any timeline - as it would seem that God, and his paradise, exists outside of time itself.

When I remember this, I am filled with trust, not belief. Trust that things will work themselves out, and that reality and truth prevails regardless of our occasional melancholy and inner turmoil.

While I can sometimes sense Gods presence, I cannot personify him. To do that, I feel, is to give him boundaries - an impossibility. If God could be defined, the definition would burst like a shoe too tightly fit.

[Shadow girl]

How to get to heaven?

Is there anything beyond death?

Were we with God before we came into being?

I seem to remember blissful times of peace and well-being. Equanimity and no suffering. Like floating on a cloud, the memory of this is so distant that I cannot place it on any timeline - as it would seem that God, and his paradise, exists outside of time itself.

When I remember this, I am filled with trust, not belief. Trust that things will work themselves out, and that reality and truth prevails regardless of our occasional melancholy and inner turmoil.

While I can sometimes sense Gods presence, I cannot personify him. To do that, I feel, is to give him boundaries - an impossibility. If God could be defined, the definition would burst like a shoe too tightly fit.

Yes that is how to get there

Heaven and Hell

Thats a very good question because I know you and I were his idea long ago and maybe so maybe we were with him who knows. No body exist by accident.

Thats very interesting. Yes it does exist out of time.

Boundaries isn't the way to go. You won't get anywhere when you do that. If you just let God into all aspects of your life you'll see and understand more then you ever thought possible.

[oneofthesun]

All kittens go to heaven, because kittens are lovable & precious (I'm a cat lover, can you tell?).

For which you are going to HELL! (No, I'm kidding, you're a victim, you can't help it).

Um Vega, if you don't mind by saying so, that's the most un-asexy avatar I've seen... well... just about anywhere. It's bordering on obscene.

and Shadowgirl, perhaps someone has mentioned this already, but you're really not helping Christianity by posting threads like this. It won't convert anyone here, I guarantee it. This kind of thing is exactly what puts people off about Christianity. If you won't stop posting these threads because people are getting sick of them, then do it because you're giving Christianity a bad name.

[Næt.]

Hang on - Adam and Eve; aren't they supposed to be 'allegorical'?

[Shadow girl]

Hang on - Adam and Eve; aren't they supposed to be 'allegorical'?

Can you rephrase that?

[Olivier]

*blows whistle* ;)

Oy! Shadow girl asked for this thread to be for Christians, and those interested in Christianity and salvation, to chat in.

If you want to fight, do it over here.

[niku-bot]

This is in no way a flame. If it sounds like one, I'm really sorry, and please tell me if it appears so. I'm simply curious and wondering.

Why is it that god is omnipotent, omnipresent, "ruler of the world," yet constantly seeking praise? This isn't even just with Christianity. Even within my religious affiliation, people constantly praise the creator in some way, though it's not needed. I'm just wondering, why? Why isn't sitting back, enjoying life enough? Why does god want people to pray, worship, speak in his favor? Why is he constantly seeking this form of approval from his "flawed" creations? I was told he was perfect as a young child.

Why is it that generally accepted things, such as eating shellfish, seen as, "Oh, well, times have changed," or something to that equivalent? Why is picking and choosing okay within a large realm of Christianity?

Also, I wonder, why do I become more "religious" in a really delusional sense when I become psychotic? Perhaps that's really outside the realm of any religion, but I've always wondered. I start hearing voices and think they're angels, see shadows and think they're demons, feel pulled to rid the world of "poisons" (which in my psychotic mind includes television, games, really any form of media, and government) and think it's god.

Last on my list, if god has no part in hell, how do people get sent there? Don't just tell me that it's the person's "choice" please, because that will just, in a small way, go back to my first paragraph of questions.

I honestly wonder these things.

[Sally]

*blows whistle* ;)

Oy! Shadow girl asked for this thread to be for Christians, and those interested in Christianity and salvation, to chat in.

If you want to fight, do it over here.

Oy gevalt! We should walk across the street? We're already here; we'll argue here. Have a glass tea, Olivier, and put your whistle down.

Re shellfish, I don't think Christians ever cared about that. Paul decided that Christians didn't have to obey the laws of the Torah and that was that.

So re praising God: Sometimes I mouth the words, "Baruch atah Adonai, Elohenu melech ha olam", Blessed be God, ruler of the universe, in temple and wonder why we praise God so much. I think it is a sort of acceptance, that no matter how weird life is, how distressing the world is, how capricious God seems to be, how distant, how unreliable, still...God is our God. (That can't be accepted by anyone other than a religious person, I realize.) But we just praise; we don't beg, plead, promise, entreat, or expect any favors. It's just kind of an acceptance of a relationship.

[ThePieMaker]

Well, I'm Christian(ish) and I certainly have my own opinions how one would get to heaven (if there is one, which I really don't know... and nobody knows). So therefore I feel like I qualify for discussion.

Now I'm too lazy to read all the posts in here (my deadly sin is sloth afterall) to know if anyone has already said this, though chances are someone has. Anywho, I believe that if one is to get into heaven, they better be a good person. I don't believe that this God who supposedly loves all people would let someone who is such a good person, has done great things for people, is charitable, but has never been introduced to Christianity can possibly let this person go to hell. What about babies? What about children? What about those who are blind and deaf? Off to hell with them because they can't possibly understand the concept of what Christianity really is and what sin really is, let alone ask for forgiveness.

So what can happen according to the beliefs of many Christians: a horrible serial child rapist/murderer can believe in God and Jesus and ask for their sins to be forgiven and they get a nice little ticket into heaven. But... let's say an agnostic, Buddhist, Muslim, etc person spends their life doing service, volunteering, helping others, giving up their time to improve the world around them, and they are just a really nice and good person, but they go to hell. Why? Because they have a hard time believing these set of beliefs that go along with Christianity or they just have grown up believing another religion is the right one.

Maybe I'm not a "real" Christian, but I'd like to think I'm a pretty good person. And as someone who has grown up in the church, even at a very young age, I've had such a hard time understanding this incredible injustice. They say we have a just God. Well, if what you say is the way to really get to heaven, then God isn't just at all. Then God isn't looking at the important things in life. Then God sounds like all he wants to do is promote this religion. Frankly, I don't buy it. If it's so wrong of me to believe that people should focus more on being good than believing Jesus died on the cross for our sins and we all have to believe that to get into heaven, then let me go to hell. I'm sorry I had a little more faith in my God than what many seem to.

[Philip]

My tentative belief is that every one goes to heaven except anyone who fully and deliberately refuses to love in any degree. Hell is being closed in on oneself in hatred.

[ThePieMaker]

My tentative belief is that every one goes to heaven except anyone who fully and deliberately refuses to love in any degree. Hell is being closed in on oneself in hatred.

I like this a lot.

[Shadow girl]

My tentative belief is that every one goes to heaven except anyone who fully and deliberately refuses to love in any degree. Hell is being closed in on oneself in hatred.

I like this a lot.

Want to let you know that Children don't go to Hell. When they are under the age of understanding and making a decision of faith on they're own. For them personal faith is waved. But as you get older that no longer applies (don't get any idea of harming a child for it) and you can make that decision of faith. If you hear the truth and reject it that is a different story all together.

Believing is as easy as picking shells off the sand.

[ThePieMaker]

How do we know children don't go to hell? How do we know that? What age makes it where a person will finally go to hell if they don't believe? Who decided this? Does it say in the bible? Where does it say this? Was it God who determined this or someone else? If God determined this, how do we know so?

[ThePieMaker]

Believing is as easy as picking shells off the sand.

No it isn't, not when you actually spend time thinking and researching about it. Yes, it's easy to believe if you follow blindly, if you don't ask questions, if you don't take time and search for the truth.

Want to let you know that Children don't go to Hell. When they are under the age of understanding and making a decision of faith on they're own. For them personal faith is waved. But as you get older that no longer applies (don't get any idea of harming a child for it) and you can make that decision of faith. If you hear the truth and reject it that is a different story all together.

Sorry... what??? I have no clue what you're saying there...

Yeah, I decided to ignore that. I wasn't quite sure what it was insinuating, and I certainly didn't like what I felt it was insinuating.

[oneofthesun]

Believing is as easy as picking shells off the sand.

Which is exactly my problem with it.

[osito]

Once more--because it needs to be said--I am citing the This American Life radio program about Reverend Carlton Pearson, the once-famous fundamentalist preacher who had a change of heart about the existence of hell:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Epis...spx?episode=304

This man is as devout a Christian and believer in the redemption of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ as any other. Listen to his message, and walk away in peace from the doctrine of spiritual terrorism.

As for the simplicity of belief in fundamentalist Christianity, I agree with GoAllyGoGo. The notion that we must put objectivity and reason aside and blindly adhere to what some humans wrote in a book a couple of thousand years ago (and worse, to what got changed and edited out through a long history of culling and shaping scripture to suit contemporaneous political ends) takes the simple statement "except ye be as little children ye cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven" and turns it upside down. We were not given our capacity to observe, reflect, and think rationally in order that we throw it away in deference to our primate (stratified, patriarchal, authoritarian) ancestry. And no (look closely); this is not an atheist flame attack. Many Christians do not agree with fundamentalist doctrine, nor do they feel the need to go about trying to convert people.

If you hear the truth and reject it that is a different story all together.

Suppose this "truth" is spoken at gunpoint by a serial killer? Or by a hypocrite who cannot walk his talk? Or by an incapable evangelist who cannot offer heartfelt statements, or clearheaded ones, or intelligent ones? This is patently a threat to the tune of "God sent me to warn you that if you don't believe as I do, it's the eternal barbecue pit for you".

It's just another iteration of ego, ethnocentrism, and bigotry.

Listen to Carlton Pearson here.

[Tikva]

*waves to osito*

Hi Little Bear!!!

Nice to see/hear from you again! :)

[Sally]

My tentative belief is that every one goes to heaven except anyone who fully and deliberately refuses to love in any degree. Hell is being closed in on oneself in hatred.

I like this a lot.

If you hear the truth and reject it that is a different story all together.

"The truth", huh? Your truth, not my truth. We each reject each other's truth, so I guess we're even, which illustrates what a silly ego game this is, claiming you have the "truth."

[jmerry]

Off-topic, but I really need to find a way to listen to This American Life... I suppose when my internet is connected, [can't listen on my BlackBerry], it might be possible to listen online...?

Yes, it is. The "full episode" links open it in a browser plugin, at least for me.

That reminds me- the latest episode is up. ... Oh drat, there's some "feed error". Not working right now.

I've actually linked that episode before, in another thread. Whatever perspective you're staring from, it's excellent.

Another related discussion link: how many times is hell even mentioned in the Bible?

It's there, but it's a fringe idea. Making it important was entirely the work of later churches.

[Shadow girl]

Once more--because it needs to be said--I am citing the This American Life radio program about Reverend Carlton Pearson, the once-famous fundamentalist preacher who had a change of heart about the existence of hell:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Epis...spx?episode=304

This man is as devout a Christian and believer in the redemption of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ as any other. Listen to his message, and walk away in peace from the doctrine of spiritual terrorism.

As for the simplicity of belief in fundamentalist Christianity, I agree with GoAllyGoGo. The notion that we must put objectivity and reason aside and blindly adhere to what some humans wrote in a book a couple of thousand years ago (and worse, to what got changed and edited out through a long history of culling and shaping scripture to suit contemporaneous political ends) takes the simple statement "except ye be as little children ye cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven" and turns it upside down. We were not given our capacity to observe, reflect, and think rationally in order that we throw it away in deference to our primate (stratified, patriarchal, authoritarian) ancestry. And no (look closely); this is not an atheist flame attack. Many Christians do not agree with fundamentalist doctrine, nor do they feel the need to go about trying to convert people.

If you hear the truth and reject it that is a different story all together.

Suppose this "truth" is spoken at gunpoint by a serial killer? Or by a hypocrite who cannot walk his talk? Or by an incapable evangelist who cannot offer heartfelt statements, or clearheaded ones, or intelligent ones? This is patently a threat to the tune of "God sent me to warn you that if you don't believe as I do, it's the eternal barbecue pit for you".

It's just another iteration of ego, ethnocentrism, and bigotry.

Listen to Carlton Pearson here.

I've heard him before and he is wrong.

[ThePieMaker]

How do you know he's wrong?

[Guest back_slash123]

if someones asking for no flames cant you just respect that?

this used to be a friendly place

[hyenaboy]

if someones asking for no flames cant you just respect that?

this used to be a friendly place

Who's flaming?

[Sally]

Yes, AVEN was a friendly place, and still is, except in the threads where non-fundamentalist Christians are told to stay out, and where religious proselytism is practiced with threatening of hell, etc.

That's not friendly. That's pretty nasty.