Aven's Atheists: When/How Did You Come to that Conclusion?

[Ashtara_Silunar]

Okay, this may take a while...

I was raised Catholic. Mom had converted as an adult, so I went to Catholic school, Mass every Sunday (and a mid-week Mass at school for kids, bleh, I was so bored...).

I was always one of those kids that asked lots of questions. My favorite: "If as Catholics we believe the bread and wine really do become the body and blood of Christ, aren't we cannibals?"

Priest's answer: "No. Christ willingly gave himself up for us."

My thoughts: ...So if you tell people they can consume your dead body, it's okay? That makes no sense at all.

Around that time I found out that my father disapproved of organized religion, and we had a great discussion about religion, the Bible, and whether the Bible was a form of ancient religious advertising.

I disagreed with many things in the church at that point, and got Confirmed to make my mother and paternal grandmother happy.

I got older, read the Bible front to back (okay, I skipped chunks of Psalms and Proverbs), and got more logical thought processes. I decided that one Supreme Being was completely illogical unless it was the last of its kind, and that there had to be at least two, if not an entire race. I switched to Paganism, with an emphasis on Wicca.

I read some more, and quantum mechanics didn't work AT ALL the way my Wicca books said. There was no way magic worked like that. And by then, I figured out that with today's technology, and cameras everywhere, we would see proof of superior beings (besides statues weeping vegetable oil, and episodes of pareidolia). I had lost what little faith I had left. I figured that maybe there was only us, and decided I was agnostic, and that I would look to the world around me for the truth. Kathy Mar's "Word of God" became one of my favorite songs, and still is. (Available to listen to at http://www.last.fm/music/Kathy+Mar/+tracks)

I read Dawkins and Hitchens and Randi and Sagan. I was in awe at how incredible the universe is, and how amazing things are. I was a bit angry that all these amazing things had been kept from me. I got over it. And now I'm an atheist. I have seen no proof that we were intentionally created. We are amazing enough without that, and I am happier as an atheist than I ever was trying to be religious. "We are star-stuff", to quote Sagan. Now the Symphony of Science series on youtube (

) are among my favorites.

Given some of the discussion here about the possibility of religion being hardwired in the brain: http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html

This is exactly what Dr. Persinger has done, by constructing what some have dubbed the "God helmet". It is an ordinary motorcycle helmet fitted with solenoids which, when worn, produce a complex magnetic field designed to interact with and stimulate the temporal lobes of the brain. Four out of five people who undergo this experience report sensing a "presence" in the room with them, one which religious individuals frequently identify as that of God (Holmes 2001, p. 28).

Unmentioned is that sometimes, the person with the helmet on sensed the presence of... aliens. Yep. The brain is fun.

As a side note, I found that Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go Of God" reminded me a lot of many steps I went through. Anyone else have the same experience?

Edit: WALLOFTEXTSORRY.

[Sennkestra]

For me, it's not so much that I became an atheist....I was born and raised as one, and I never found an argument convincing enough to make me think otherwise.

[test account]

I came to this conclusion gradually when I was about 32.

I was taught from birth that God required me to belong to a sort of cult religion because he was going to destroy the world and I would only be safe if I stayed in the cult.

After spending my whole life there up till 30, I got old enough to notice that most of the people around me were not well emotionally. They were stressed, negative, paranoid and guilt-ridden. I was also suffering an anxiety disorder. We were told at church this was because we were living in the last days of Satans evil system of things and that he and his demons were putting pressure on us to rebel against God. I was so ill though that I had a fear of going to sleep in case Satan attacked me while I was off my guard. I was barely able to function, on medication, getting professional help.

I started to think God couldn't mean me to live that way. And I started letting myself ask questions. And then I took the matter to God in prayer. I said to him, "You know how sick I am, and you know I'm thinking of leaving your church to get well. If you're the sort of person I'm told you are, loving and patient, then you will support my decision to leave because you can read my heart and know I do this to get well. If you expect me to stay, you are cruel and oppressive and I wouldn't want to worship such a person anyway. I would only stay because I'm afraid of you. But I think Im showing you more respect by choosing to believe you are loving and kind. I believe I am showing more faith in your goodness by leaving this church. So I'm going with your blessing. And if it turns out I'm mistaken, that Im actually doing the wrong thing, then I trust there'll be no hard feelings when you destroy me with the rest of Satans world. Ill thank you for letting me live my life the way I wanted and accept that you only do what you have to do, just as I'm doing what I have to do now."

I felt good about that and left the church with a totally clear conscience, still believing in God. And over time, as I got more confident about my ability to see things my own way, I started to see God as a story people made up to explain the futility of our mortal lives. I don't know if there's a creative being on some plane of existence beyond our ability to measure or understand. But in practical terms, I've come to see common views of God to be mythological.

[MadRat]

I come from the Czech Republic, which is probably the most atheistic country in the world. Almost noone in my country is religious and most of religious people are old ones. I´ve never had a need to believe in any superior powerful being, who created the world. I´ve read the Bible for curiosity, but I think it is only another mythological and philosophical book. It is intersting for me in the same way as other historical relics. There were many nations with different religions during the history and I don´t think that christianity is something more than for example religion of some african tribes.

And I have aversion against religious fanaticism. I mean by this not only islamic terrorists of the 21st century, but also all those absurd wars in the name of one true God during the history of mankind. The religion should not be a cover for killing people of another believes, customs etc. I don´t like the thought of desirable nation. And I don´t like the thought that humans are the superior species to rule the world and that they are only one living creatures who have a soul. Only for the sake of this thought there were vivisections and there are still similar kinds of animal abuse. :evil:

I like the way how hunters of some so-called "primitive" tribes handle the animals they hunt. They have a respect to them, they apologize to their souls... What is primitive about it?

And I like the way how pagans of ancient ages treated the nature. For example, when they wanted to make a runes for divination, they at first asked a tree if they´re allowed to cut a branch. As I´ve said befire, I´m not religious person at all, but I like this approach. At present people don´t ask, they just take. It is so sad. :(

[Ashtara_Silunar]

Well, I finally finished reading the four pages of this thread I skipped to write my terribly long post, and figured I'd chime in again.

What it really comes down to is god is suppose to be:

Omnibenevolent (all good)

Omniscient (all knowing)

Omnipotent (all powerful)

But god cannot possibly be all three of these things. We can all agree that torturing a child to death is not good right? Well, on Earth, children have been tortured to death. If god is all good, all knowing, and all powerful, then god would have the knowledge and ability to stop a child from being tortured to death, and would want to because god is all good, and stopping a child from being tortured to death is good. Wouldn't we say that a human who had the knowledge and power to stop a child from being tortured to death, but didn't, not all good? It's not fair to hold god to lesser standards than we would hold other humans to surely...? Again, people drag out the argument that god is doing it to test us. Well, how wonderful of him to let those children suffer so that we can prove ourselves! What kind of god would let others suffer just to let you feel good about yourself? If we're will to accept that god is not one or more of these things, then a god could coexist with this world logically, but again, why listen to a god who is not all powerful, all good, and all knowledgeable? In that case, I exist too, why not build a religion around me? or you? or penguins? Those aren't all powerful, all good, or all knowledgeable either....

Sorry, wanted to quickly chime in here. I like the way Marcus Aurelius put it. "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

I don't want to live forever either. But this life can't mean much to me if most of the experience I've gathered just disappears.

In trying to understand how this doesn't bother other atheists, or for that matter how it didn't bother me once, I've realised that most of us have a strong sense of belonging and being committed to something. They derive meaning out of something in their lives. I don't. I have no self-determined reason to be here, except the overpowering sense that I can rediscover meaning if I search in the right places, and that it will be wonderful if I find it. Of course in an absolute sense, there's no such thing as meaning. But things mean something to each of us, like family or their work, or science, or their country, or God, whatever. Except, it seems, to me, not even my own survival feels particularly important. Which is why I've looked far and wide for a reason to believe in an afterlife, and the continuation and progression of our experiences. And haven't found it.

Okay, beauty of the universe and sense of meaning, here goes.

Our sun is a third-generation star. The two generations of stars before it burned for billions of years, went out, and exploded, scattering the remnants of fusion through the galaxy-- the iron in our blood, the carbon forming the rings of the base pairs in our DNA, all the heavier elements came from the stars. As I suspect "Born of Star Dust"'s name up there is referencing (please correct me if I'm wrong, btw), there is a quote by Sagan that we are made of star-stuff. We are the now-living remnants of dead stars. That's a pretty impressive legacy for stars few people are aware of, no?

And yet we are so tiny, hurtling through space around the sun at about 67,000 miles an hour, clinging to a tiny rock. (Okay, okay, held by gravity, not clinging. I wish my brain would allow me more poetic license.)

The chances against an individual being born are staggeringly unlikely. How many base pairs have to be different before you're no longer you are debatable, but it's still incredible that we're here at all, instead of other people. Think about it: 3 billion base pairs. Half from each of your parents. The odds of your being here are approximately 2.25 x 10^18 to 1. I can be pretty impressed by those odds, if nothing else.

Those are two of my favorites to think about. I think the universe is more impressive when we're looking for answers, rather than taking "God did it" for granted.

Back to the first bit, though.

I don't want to live forever either. But this life can't mean much to me if most of the experience I've gathered just disappears.

A close friend of mine killed himself last October. The things he said, the way he looked at the world... that hasn't died because he has. All of us who cared about him carry that with us. And maybe that will vanish in a generation or so. But he affected my worldview. I hope to affect the worldview of my friends and relatives and young cousins.

And honestly... when I die, I will be gone except for what remains of me in memories, and the things I have written. Let me repeat that: I will be gone. I won't care anymore. I will spend my time until then appreciating the universe.

Chance got me here, and I will learn all I can before my bit of star-stuff winks out. For me, the search for truth is enough to keep me going.

Some people might say you haven't found your purpose in life yet. I don't think that's true, because I don't think anyone is assigned a purpose that they have to find. Maybe there is something out there that will keep you going, maybe not. Either way, I wish you the best.

Also, I seem completely incapable of writing short posts. Bloody hell.

[Vdougie]

I am not really an athiest, more like an agnostic, although I kind of lean toward athiesm. I used to believe in God when I was younger, but know I am beginning to doubt his existence. I have researched different religions including Christianity and know I think I understand them better.

The bible is full of contradictions and things in it have been defied all ready such as evolution. God doesn't seem to be the kind hearted spirit most people tend to believe. In the bible, he seemed pretty malicious and cruel. I believe the bible was written a long time ago by men, not gods, for political reasons. There are religions that outdate it such as Hinduism, which is probably the oldest mono/poly thesitc religion in recorded history.

I believe that the bible and other religions are just fairy tales that some people will believe for some reason, despite how farfetched it may be. I have no problem with people who use religion to find guidance in their life or use it as a crutch when life gets tough. As long as they do not go craming it down people's throats including mine, I'm fine with it.

[Samael]

I don't believe in any supernatural deity. That alone doesn't make me an atheist though, since the definition of atheism is not only disbelieving in the existence of a deity, but also believing in the inexistence of a deity. I believe neither in the existence nor in the inexistence of a deity, which makes me an agnostic, not a theist or atheist.

The keyword here is believing. Believing refers to the idea of agreeing with an unproven statement, which may or may not be true in the end. A fact is a proven statement which doesn't require believing in it, only acknowledging its existence. Since the existence or inexistence of a deity can't be proven either way, to agree with a statement about its existence or inexistence is to believe, not to know. As such, the only logical course of action is to disregard theism (since theists believe in the existence of a deity) and atheism (since atheists believe in the inexistence of a deity) as false and embrace agnosticism as true until proven otherwise.

To not totally piss off any hardcore theists or atheists, even though agnosticism is the only logical course of action, I don't try to convert anyone into it. Atheism is a religion, since it requires believing in the inexistence of a deity. Atheism, like theism, is a matter of belief and they're not supposed to have any logic behind them: only blind belief. If someone wants to blindly believe in something, then go right ahead :)

[Henny]

I don't believe in any supernatural deity.

Congrats, you're an atheist.

That alone doesn't make me an atheist though, since the definition of atheism is not only disbelieving in the existence of a deity, but also believing in the inexistence of a deity.

*facepalms and sighs*

I can assure you that the vast majority of those who call themselves atheists would disagree with you. If you don't believe in god, well, you're an atheist. It really is that damn simple. Yet there seems to be this, well, fetish, by theists or those who look it up in Merriam-Webster or something, to use nonsense like "belief in the non-existance of god" (show me atheists who would use that sort of phrasing to describe their position) or "denying God" (do asexuals deny their sexual attraction, too?) It's like saying that one can't be Finnish because they don't live in Noormarkku or something. It doesn't make any sense.

Sorry, I'm just f*cking tired of explaining it over and over again.

[Samael]

Hahaha, your post really didn't make any sense to me, Henny. Congratz on being confusing :) I think that if you took the time to research into this matter, your opinions might be a bit different. :lol:

[Henny]

Hahaha, your post really didn't make any sense to me, Henny. Congratz on being confusing :) I think that if you took the time to research into this matter, your opinions might be a bit different. :lol:

Show me the parts of my post you found confusing and I'll attempt to clear up any confusion. Anyway, you seem a bit like a YouTube commenter saying something like "no lol asexuality is 'reproduction without sexual organs', make some research" in response to an asexuality video.

[Samael]

Nah, I'm not interested to argue or to prove anything to you. I'm perfectly ok with it if you can't see the difference between agnosticism and atheism. Ignorance is bliss, they say...

[Inevitable]

Nah, I'm not interested to argue or to prove anything to you. I'm perfectly ok with it if you can't see the difference between agnosticism and atheism. Ignorance is bliss, they say...

And yet as a species we try so hard to leave ignorance behind...

Henny's totally correct of course. You're an atheist. You just don't understand the definitions, which Henny has kindly corrected you on.

You didn't specifically mention this, but I'll discuss it anyway. Often what proslytizing religious movements claim is that atheism is like a religion because you cannot disprove the existance of god (in addition, of course, to not being able to prove the existance of god). This is completely incorrect. The lack of evidence IS the evidence there is no god.

For example, take a wall next to you. In that wall, right where you're looking is a door. I cannot prove to you there is a door, because I can't see it, but you also can't prove to me there is no door (if we follow the incorrect reasoning mentioned earlier). However, we don't keep that area of the wall clear, or hang up a fire exit sign because of the door that might be there. If you told everyone you met that there was a door there you'd be treated as insane. The fact that there is no evidence of a door, is the reason you don't have to believe there is one.

Believing in a god, or even the possibility of a god, is even worse than this. At least you can prove that doors in general exist. We know they do, we use them all the time. Gods are just an idea.

In short,

Lack of proof = evidence of disproof.

[{deleted}]

I've been agnostic for pretty much all of my life. I was never raised with any sort of religion- just some vague concepts, like bad karma, heaven, santa klaus, guardian angels etc. Even from a very young I wondered about things, and I never saw fit to actually believe in a god.

I became an atheist properly at the end of last year. God... well, he makes no sense. He's unnecessary, contradictory, and very controversial... I'm not convinced by the arguments for him, in any way and if I'm honest, I'm more than a little disturbed by the idea of him. It's just flawed in so many ways that I can't count them all. I'm not a materialist, though. I think that an afterlife is very likely. I'm just can't figure out what it'll be (though I'm leaning towards reincarnation.)

[virescence]

Yeah, sorry, Henny is right.

"Agnosticism" is the position that states either that we do not or cannot know whether a deity or deities exist.

"Theism" is belief in one or more deities.

"Atheism" is the lack of belief in any deities.

Atheism can be further subdivided into two types: "hard" atheism, and "soft" atheism. (or strong/weak atheism, or positive/negative atheism). Hard atheism is the "believing in the inexistence of a deity" position. Soft atheism is simply the absence of belief (which you incorrectly defined as "agnosticism"). Most atheists are soft atheists.

Someone can be an agnostic atheist (thinks we do not or cannot know whether deities exist, and lacks belief in deities) or an agnostic theist (thinks we do not or cannot know whether deities exist, and believes in one or more deities anyway.)

From your description of your views, you are an agnostic soft atheist. Like me!

[Deremna]

I am not an Athiest, but I am agnostic. I came to this conclusion when I was 10. I went to Christian school but had never really felt at home there. Teachers would speak in tongues and I would look at them like they were crazy. Pastors were greedy. I was really put off by the fact that my parents had to pay an extra 10% of their income to the church on top of my already steep tuition. For a year straight, I had prayed that the world would end because it was filled with so much pain. I didn't understand why a benevolent god would allow his creations to suffer. So I just decided.. "Well, that's that If that god exists, then eff him. If there are no gods then fine. If there are multiple gods then fine. I don't care."

[Samael]

Yeah, sorry, Henny is right.

"Agnosticism" is the position that states either that we do not or cannot know whether a deity or deities exist.

"Theism" is belief in one or more deities.

"Atheism" is the lack of belief in any deities.

Atheism can be further subdivided into two types: "hard" atheism, and "soft" atheism. (or strong/weak atheism, or positive/negative atheism). Hard atheism is the "believing in the inexistence of a deity" position. Soft atheism is simply the absence of belief (which you incorrectly defined as "agnosticism"). Most atheists are soft atheists.

Someone can be an agnostic atheist (thinks we do not or cannot know whether deities exist, and lacks belief in deities) or an agnostic theist (thinks we do not or cannot know whether deities exist, and believes in one or more deities anyway.)

From your description of your views, you are an agnostic soft atheist. Like me!

Thanks for the creative input.

It seems that people have and use varying definitions here. As such, it would be difficult to understand one another if a harmonic discussion was desired. The definitions seen here have been different than those used by academic theologists, but it's refreshing to hear new view points.

I've said enough, I think, as I don't want to step on anyone's sensitive toes :lol: Carry on with the conversation :)

[Guest]

I believe in the possibility of a god, but I do not believe one exists.

[Olivier]

It seems that people have and use varying definitions here. As such, it would be difficult to understand one another if a harmonic discussion was desired. The definitions seen here have been different than those used by academic theologists, but it's refreshing to hear new view points.

In the course of erecting strawmen, academic theologists do indeed very often mischaracterise or misdefine atheism. The fact that it's so common is what drives the frustration you've stirred up here with statements like "atheism is a religion". Do you think "not believing in unicorns" is a religion? "Not believing in the tooth fairy": Religion, or not a religion?

Defining atheism as a religious belief in the non-existence of gods is a nonsense to any thinking person; a piece of sophistry found only in religious (usually Christian) apologism. It's certainly not a definition accepted by any atheist I know.

[LonePiper]

Yeah, Olivier is right - you sound like you've been listening to too much christian apologetic rhetoric and sophism.

No, atheism is not a religion. Even so called "hard" atheism is not a religion, even though it requires a point of view based on a fact that cannot be definitively proven. There is much more to religion than that.

And, excuse me for the tired old analogy, but it doesn't require any more faith to believe there is no god than to believe there is no Santa Claus.

And no, I can't prove it. Technically in a very Descartian sense nothing can be proven. But we can't spend our lives being wishy-washy about everything we believe. I can't prove god doesn't exist, but I can say that I think he does not exist beyond reasonable doubt.

[bromance]

My father is a conservative Protestant pastor (although, contrary to stereotypes, he is pretty rational most of the time); almost everyone in my family is Christian except for one atheist uncle, and he's an asshole...

While I tried to be the "good Christian girl," it never really worked out. I never got into troubles or anything, but by the age of 5, I was already questioning the validity of original sin and predestination. And the way that the Christians in my family kept nagging the atheist uncle to start believing in God seemed asinine to me. Alright, he's an asshole, but he's nice to me and even has taught me some of the more "secular" tricks in life, such as how to cheat in gambling. -_-

I started questioning the existence of a deity around the time I turned 14. There seemed to be no compelling evidence that there was a god. While I was extremely defensive about Christianity, it was probably due to my own shaky confidence in the faith. If God has truly created everything, he would have created reason and logic as well. Reasonably, the possibility of the existence of a deity seemed so miniscule. Why has no deity ever proven him/her/itself? Why do they always need humans to represent them? I was taught that it was due to "free will," because if the Judeo-Christian God truly showed himself, everyone in the world would feel compelled to worship him and He did not want that (I don't know about other religions or Christian sects), but it made no sense to me. If He loves us so much, then why does He send otherwise good people to Hell for simply not believing in Him, because the world He has created bears no evidence of Him?

I'm 17 and I'm atheist now. I don't know if that's the correct term, seeing that I lack belief in a god, but still believe that there really isn't a way of knowing whether a god exists or not for sure.

I do know that I'm more liberated than ever. Even though some people have branded me as immoral and heartless after I "came out" to them, I have my own set of morals and I have never committed a crime.

On a side note: my class was recently reading Dante's Inferno, and the theist (mostly Christian) kids were so scared, they were asking the teacher if Dante really went to Hell! That sort of irrationality is what has gotten me to reject religion altogether. I don't have anything against religious individuals however, as long as they do not try to push their religious views or morals onto me.

[Kakatl]

As for me, I wasn't raised with any religion, and I didn't even find out that people could be seriously religious until I was about 10.

The existence of any god seems impossible to me. This Epicurus quote pretty much sums it up:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"