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The Evil Cashew

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I've been thinking this thread over for a while and decided to add my two cents. First of all, I want to assure people that we are listening to the concerns that have been expressed in this thread. We have been debating the use of this banner message for weeks, and we are still discussing it. Your opinions will be taken into account in that discussion.

Second, I want to stress that it is not our intention to keep this message up permanently. It will be taken down from most, if not all, of the forums eventually. We intend to use this function to announce other things in the future also. Although this message may resurface from time to time if needed.

And finally, I want to respond to something others have said. It's true that this forum is a privately owned website and that the owner has a right to do with it whatever zie chooses. However, back in 2004 AVENguy decided that this site should be run democratically and that the rules and those who enforce them should be chosen by the members. I disagree with those who say we mods don't have to explain ourselves. We most certainly do. We were elected by you to enforce the rules that you voted on and whatever action we take needs to be in your best interest. You have every right to question our actions and we have a responsibility to respond.

However, I need to add that I personally supported this banner message.

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And yeah, saihr, if avenguy made that banner, and had written that introductory post, you wouldn’t have heard a peep from this reptilelover. As things stand now, I have every right to complain, especially if I know the reasoning (kindly/not so kindly provided by introductory post) why it came to be. He is the only one "outside" the tos, the rest of you/us aren't yet (at least I am not aware of it).

This is possibly the most bullshit reason I have ever heard for why to voice or not voice an opinion. I'm sorry, but really? It would just take his magic words to make everything right again? Really? Just a friendly reminder here, but DJ created an Admod team to do things like this, to run AVEN because he can not/will not do it anymore! Additionally, with a statement like that, you're practically saying that the only person you will listen to is him. If he requests to have something done, you'll listen, and if anyone else requests it, then they can shove off. It's incredibly arrogant. At this point, I have absolutely no desire to cater to your earlier requests, because, really. What's the use? I'm no David Jay.

No, if he did any of the things you guys did (reasoning of why I disagree with your opinions explained in my posts), I’d stop posting on AVEN and only dwell in the chat with gatto. He has the right to violate the tos (or change the tos or whatever) because he is the owner of this site. The rest of you aren’t which is why if you do something like this I will call you on it. Yes, you were appointed to help with AVEN, you were not appointed to twist the rules however you see them. (what it seems to me you are attempting to do). So yeah, plese some clarifications on what constitutes “discriminatory statement” (with examples how so many people did this here preferably). This melodrama stems from that, and, seems to me will continue to do so unless you give some clear definitions.

And yeah, Osito, I agree with you completely. In fact, I remember the earlier posts of many of the very same admins here that complain of anti-sexuals, and yeah, quite a bit of those earlier posts would have classified as anti sexual (at least by what goes around the term “anti sexual” nowadays. Back then it ment something else… <_< )

And yeah, Shock :cake: to you. I personally find the banner annoying, however it's not such a big deal.

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And yeah, saihr, if avenguy made that banner, and had written that introductory post, you wouldn’t have heard a peep from this reptilelover. As things stand now, I have every right to complain, especially if I know the reasoning (kindly/not so kindly provided by introductory post) why it came to be. He is the only one "outside" the tos, the rest of you/us aren't yet (at least I am not aware of it).

Admins and Moderators are outside the TOS to a degree. And Administrators are DJ/Avenguy's chosen representative's on this forum... However... AVENguy was not who I was referring to, but rather the Administrators and AVENguy as a collective 'being'. Especially seeing as David Jay doesn't run the forums (as far as I'm aware at least).

This is possibly the most bullshit reason I have ever heard for why to voice or not voice an opinion. I'm sorry, but really? It would just take his magic words to make everything right again? Really? Just a friendly reminder here, but DJ created an Admod team to do things like this, to run AVEN because he can not/will not do it anymore! Additionally, with a statement like that, you're practically saying that the only person you will listen to is him. If he requests to have something done, you'll listen, and if anyone else requests it, then they can shove off. It's incredibly arrogant. At this point, I have absolutely no desire to cater to your earlier requests, because, really. What's the use? I'm no David Jay.

Calm reasoning logic is the best approach. Evocative curse words and angry tones will get us no where and only lead to confrontation. And yes, that is a criticsm. But it need not lead to a confrontation or further anger you.

Those who feel particularly strongly about this issue should take a step back; take a few hours to do something else; have a breather.

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And yeah, saihr, if avenguy made that banner, and had written that introductory post, you wouldn’t have heard a peep from this reptilelover. As things stand now, I have every right to complain, especially if I know the reasoning (kindly/not so kindly provided by introductory post) why it came to be. He is the only one "outside" the tos, the rest of you/us aren't yet (at least I am not aware of it).

Admins and Moderators are outside the TOS to a degree. And Administrators are DJ/Avenguy's chosen representative's on this forum... However... AVENguy was not who I was referring to, but rather the Administrators and AVENguy as a collective 'being'. Especially seeing as David Jay doesn't run the forums (as far as I'm aware at least).

Well, I make the distinction because he is the owner and the rest of you aren’t (you are voted in “representatives"). So yeah, if one includes avenguy in the “whole” then I agree with you, if one doesn’t then not. :P

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Calm reasoning logic is the best approach. Evocative curse words and angry tones will get us no where and only lead to confrontation. And yes, that is a criticsm. But it need not lead to a confrontation or further anger you.

Those who feel particularly strongly about this issue should take a step back; take a few hours to do something else; have a breather.

Well aware, Saeihr. I can take critisim and I can take logical, rational discussion. I know what I said isn't going to get this anywhere, but this thread isn't something up for debate. It was meant to be a reminder, not a ball and chain. It was meant to prevent a harsh crackdown on people, which would seem out of the blue, unfair, and harsh to those who received that warning when they were unaware that their comments did, in fact, break the TOS. And then people came onto a thread meant to offer an explanation and made demands of the Admod team, purely because they highlighted a part of the TOS--didn't change a single rule or make any official action/ruling of any kind--and displayed it in a manner that was more likely to get people's attention than a simple post in the Announcements forum? It does not seem fair to me that the people elected to look out for AVEN's interests are going to be ignored and remarked against as such.

The minute this stopped being about the red box and started being about who has the right to say or do what is the minute I responded. I may have come across as rude and angry, but if everyone else gets to say how they feel on the subject, then I feel like I am extended that right too. I'm not going to soften my tone when other people do not do the same. I'm being as honest as I get. I'm sorry if that offends or upsets anyone, but this entire thread has come to upset me, and being honest and open about feelings is, really, the only healthy way I think anything gets resolved.

Since you requested I back off, I'll do so. I'll say no more in this thread.

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And reptile lover ... the responsibilities of the admod team are clearly defined, and they do NOT include explaning ourselves or providing statistics to justify our actions. If we choose to explain why we do something it is due to common courtesy, not obligation.

-GB

Sigh. I don’t have a problem with the banner. As always, I have a problem with the introductory post – it talked about all this anti-sexuals (with them being signalled out the most), anti-religious, anti- whatever “infestation” going around on AVEN, none of which I’ve observed anywhere. You did not provide any evidence of the “infestation” so, in fact, what was made was convert PERSONAL ATTACK (you know, that’s actually against the tos) on some AVEN members. No, admins do not have to explain why they do stuff they do (unless they are abusing their position, and the inquirer provides reasoning for why they think abuse of position happened. And no, I don't think any of you abused your position so far), and I didn’t ask you why you did your adminly whatever and put the banner out. I asked you why you did a seeming PERSONAL ATTACK (any negative statment/claim on person/group of people for which no reasoning/examples of why you think it's negative behaviour are shown) on a group of people and asked to provide some evidence for your reasoning so as to it not be a personal attack any longer. And that is your duty as a member (especially of the admod variety). Because PERSONAL ATTACKS are against the violation of tos.

And yeah, saihr, if avenguy made that banner, and had written that introductory post, you wouldn’t have heard a peep from this reptilelover. As things stand now, I have every right to complain, especially if I know the reasoning (kindly/not so kindly provided by introductory post) why it came to be. He is the only one "outside" the tos, the rest of you/us aren't yet (at least I am not aware of it).

And thylacine, only one particular poster posted blatantly anti-women stuff on AVEN. The reason this happened was because, for whatever reason, admins decided not to warn and tolarete comments like that.

One thing that really astounds me is the fact that you consider this a personal attack. They said there was antisexual content, as well as some other negative content. They did NOT name any specific person or group! If I had said something offensive about old people, and then someone made a general statement about it being a bad thing to be mean to old people, not naming me specifically, it would NOT be a personal attack!

You may disagree with the way things were handled, but there was in no way a "personal attack" against you or anyone else, and if you see it that way, you must have some guilty feelings about things you've posted.

He seemed to me to be careful NOT to name anyone specifically!

It is ridiculous what people are offended by these days (and in this case, they're offended by people trying to stop offensive remarks!)

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I just want to point out a few misconceptions I noticed earlier in this thread: the Admins are not chosen by AVENguy, they are elected by the admod team out of the current moderators (a policy that was voted for by the general membership of AVEN). Also, admods are not above the ToS to any degree. If anything we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard because if we violate the ToS we lose our positions, no warnings involved.

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And reptile lover ... the responsibilities of the admod team are clearly defined, and they do NOT include explaning ourselves or providing statistics to justify our actions. If we choose to explain why we do something it is due to common courtesy, not obligation.

-GB

Sigh. I don’t have a problem with the banner. As always, I have a problem with the introductory post – it talked about all this anti-sexuals (with them being signalled out the most), anti-religious, anti- whatever “infestation” going around on AVEN, none of which I’ve observed anywhere. You did not provide any evidence of the “infestation” so, in fact, what was made was convert PERSONAL ATTACK (you know, that’s actually against the tos) on some AVEN members. No, admins do not have to explain why they do stuff they do (unless they are abusing their position, and the inquirer provides reasoning for why they think abuse of position happened. And no, I don't think any of you abused your position so far), and I didn’t ask you why you did your adminly whatever and put the banner out. I asked you why you did a seeming PERSONAL ATTACK (any negative statment/claim on person/group of people for which no reasoning/examples of why you think it's negative behaviour are shown) on a group of people and asked to provide some evidence for your reasoning so as to it not be a personal attack any longer. And that is your duty as a member (especially of the admod variety). Because PERSONAL ATTACKS are against the violation of tos.

And yeah, saihr, if avenguy made that banner, and had written that introductory post, you wouldn’t have heard a peep from this reptilelover. As things stand now, I have every right to complain, especially if I know the reasoning (kindly/not so kindly provided by introductory post) why it came to be. He is the only one "outside" the tos, the rest of you/us aren't yet (at least I am not aware of it).

And thylacine, only one particular poster posted blatantly anti-women stuff on AVEN. The reason this happened was because, for whatever reason, admins decided not to warn and tolarete comments like that.

One thing that really astounds me is the fact that you consider this a personal attack. They said there was antisexual content, as well as some other negative content. They did NOT name any specific person or group! If I had said something offensive about old people, and then someone made a general statement about it being a bad thing to be mean to old people, not naming me specifically, it would NOT be a personal attack!

You may disagree with the way things were handled, but there was in no way a "personal attack" against you or anyone else, and if you see it that way, you must have some guilty feelings about things you've posted.

He seemed to me to be careful NOT to name anyone specifically!

It is ridiculous what people are offended by these days (and in this case, they're offended by people trying to stop offensive remarks!)

My pardon, it was not personal attack, it was attack at a group of people.

Theory is all well and good. I have no problem with theory. I have a problem with how this theory is translated into practice. This is why this is an attack at a group of people: because, if I am correct in thinking who this is targeted at (which is why I ask for examples, because i know on whome this sort of rhethoric is usually used. And by the examples provided so far - the 6 footer and the mormon issue makes me think I am correct. Unfortunately.), this, in fact is an attack at a group of people.

And by the way, I am not offended, I am irritated. There’s a difference… :P

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I know what I said isn't going to get this anywhere, but this thread isn't something up for debate. It was meant to be a reminder, not a ball and chain. It was meant to prevent a harsh crackdown on people, which would seem out of the blue, unfair, and harsh to those who received that warning when they were unaware that their comments did, in fact, break the TOS.

Well, I'm sure that's how it was intended, but that's not how many have perceived it. To me, the reminder box itself was "out of the blue, unfair, and harsh". Our once-friendly forum was chiding me on every page in a Supernanny sort of way. It really is quite intrusive and joyless.

If you want a way of reminding people of the ToS without going to the harsh extreme of an out-of-the-blue formal warning, then why don't mods just PM people who are sailing a bit close to the breeze with a link to the ToS, and advice on what will earn them a warning if they continue to post inappropriately. It doesn't have to be a lot of work, it could just be a cut and paste form message that was appropriately (a) informative and (b) non-confrontational.

The fact that so many more have spoken out against the offensiveness of the reminder box than have on any of the supposedly offensive discriminatory comments both reaffirms my belief that there wasn't really that big a problem to start with and tickles my sense of irony.

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My personal opinion, as a (demi)sexual, a mod, and a general member of AVEN....

- Discriminatory comments against sexuals do exist, and do come up with regularity. They aren't ubiquitous, but they aren't rare either, and come from a fairly wide set of AVEN's userbase.

- The general state of affairs is basically "whack-a-mole", where we watch and if anything gets too excessive then we'll lay down warnings, but where we can't really punish every little infraction and we kept seeing these sorts of comments come up from time to time. Since it's already been mentioned in this thread, I'll link you to this as evidence that, yes, stuff does come up and, yes, the general AVEN population seems disturbingly okay with comments that disparage and marginalize 99% of the world's population. Not that anything in particular was warnable there, but the attitude is definitely hostile and off-putting to any sexual visitor. And while that thread's not all that recent, rest assured that there's plenty of posts within the last few months that would qualify too - things that go beyond "I'm antisexual" or "I don't like sex", and approach "sexuals can never know true intimacy" or "sexuals are jerks" territory.

- It was pointed out (not by me) that this persistence of low-level, only-occasionally-warnable antipathy towards sexuals, especially when it happened in the Welcome and Sexuals Allies forums, was directly harming AVEN's mission as a vehicle for - hey, what's that second letter - VISIBILITY. Visibility involves being open and welcoming to sexuals as well as aces.

- It was further pointed out that ramping up our game of antisexual-whack-a-mole really wouldn't accomplish much. This method was proposed as a way of making it clear to AVEN at large. The goal was to reduce remarks that would interfere with sexual members integrating as part of the AVEN community. The idea behind the goal is that, hey, AVENites are generally intelligent and friendly people who like playing by the rules and want AVEN to be a great community and visibility-and-education-network, but that many weren't understanding how their comments were getting in the way of that. The hope was that if we clearly communicated to them the nature of the situation, matters would improve - and would improve in a way that didn't result in tossing out warnings whilly-nilly and playing the big bad enforcers when we didn't have to.

- What followed was almost a full month of debate on the subject, endlessly pouring over the exact wording ("support" vs "condone" vs "tolerate" got endlessly rehashed), font choice, placement, and even the initial post to this thread. Maybe we came to the ideal solution (which was bound to get some backlash in any case), maybe we botched it by committee, probably something in between. Point is, we took this seriously, and tried to address the problem directly using the tools at our disposal. This banner will come down in time, but hopefully the message will have sunk in by then and promote positive change going forward. If you can come up with a better solution, one that makes AVEN a more welcoming place for everyone involved, I'd love to hear it.

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I know what I said isn't going to get this anywhere, but this thread isn't something up for debate. It was meant to be a reminder, not a ball and chain. It was meant to prevent a harsh crackdown on people, which would seem out of the blue, unfair, and harsh to those who received that warning when they were unaware that their comments did, in fact, break the TOS.

Well, I'm sure that's how it was intended, but that's not how many have perceived it. To me, the reminder box itself was "out of the blue, unfair, and harsh". Our once-friendly forum was chiding me on every page in a Supernanny sort of way. It really is quite intrusive and joyless.

If you want a way of reminding people of the ToS without going to the harsh extreme of an out-of-the-blue formal warning, then why don't mods just PM people who are sailing a bit close to the breeze a PM with a link to the ToS, and advice on what will earn them a warning if they continue to post inappropriately. It doesn't have to be a lot of work, it could just be a cut and paste form message that was appropriately (a) informative and (b) non-confrontational.

The fact that so many more have spoken out against the offensiveness of the reminder box than have on any of the supposedly offensive discriminatory comments both reaffirms my belief that there wasn't really that big a problem to start with and tickles my sense of irony.

Olivier, mostly when I read your posts, my brain thinks it might be worthwhile becoming gay

if that meant it could engage in a tete a tete with a brain like yours ...

And I mean that in "the nicest possible way", as our Dame Edna would say. :)

As a further point of irony, it would appear that this exuberant statement of "non toleration "

has been necessitated by apparent tacit toleration to date, or "nip-it-in-the-bud" inaction.

I am reassured that a great deal of admod thought and discussion preceded the decision to implement the ubiquitous "Reminder".

I prefer to think that none proffered the "Dick Cheney" like comment, ...

"They will welcome us with flowers!"

So the heart felt out pouring "against the offensiveness of the reminder box" was anticipated.

And, this is a "Debate" that was deemed to be 'required'.

(Since I started writing this comment, sonofzeal has confirmed the following presumption. :( )

I further presume that 'content', font size & colour, and placement were also discussed and agreed to.

I find that, ... sad!

I like the ToS.

I read it twice before I joined AVEN.

It gave me added comfort that this is a place I would like to spend some time.

I think this particular method of reminding ALL MEMBERS of the ToS is ... clumsy.

Or, for undisclosed reasons, deliberately provocative.

I do realise that the new world mantras (increasingly so, since 9/11) are, ...

"Because of the Sins of the Few, ... the Many must suffer!" ... and

"All are presumed guilty, until proven innocent."

And, that this is true, in matters great and small.

And I find this increasingly pervasive trend, to be a sad indictment of humanity.

(With a deliberate lower case "h".)

And I am glad to be close to the end of my time on this planet.

And I am sad.

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I prefer to think that none proffered the "Dick Cheney" like comment, ...

"They will welcome us with flowers!"

Don't be sad Shaggy. That comment just made my day :)

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- What followed was almost a full month of debate on the subject, endlessly pouring over the exact wording ("support" vs "condone" vs "tolerate" got endlessly rehashed), font choice, placement, and even the initial post to this thread. Maybe we came to the ideal solution (which was bound to get some backlash in any case), maybe we botched it by committee, probably something in between. Point is, we took this seriously, and tried to address the problem directly using the tools at our disposal. This banner will come down in time, but hopefully the message will have sunk in by then and promote positive change going forward. If you can come up with a better solution, one that makes AVEN a more welcoming place for everyone involved, I'd love to hear it.

Sure. Get rid of the banner and actually take action against problem users. I'm still struggling to see why that is actually a problem.

If the 6ft penis thread is the main example of the kind of thing that has spurred the warning, I don't think we have much to worry about. The thread is six months old, and even more importantly, still open after 17 pages. So if that thread is indeed discriminatory, the banner at the top is flawed, as the admods obviously do "tolerate" such things.

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The thing that concerns me most is that the message may discourage some newbies from posting and might think that AVEN isn't that welcoming.

edit: the message itself is fine, but having a big red banner across every post would absolutely intimidate me if I was a newbie somewhere.

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silentdreamer

Again, the banner is no big deal. No one should feel "punished" by a reminder or feel it's directed at them at all unless they think they make discriminatory comments and stereotypical remarks. It's like getting offended because your deodorant warns not to eat it and thinking the makers personally put that warning on the label as an attack against you.

People around here seem to have some extremely thin skin if they think a general warning is an attack. It's not talking to you unless you're guilty of doing what it says. I read it, realized it didn't apply to me, and went on about my business as usual. People also fail to realize that this banner is no longer on every forum. It's no longer on the main forum page. And it's message isn't going to stay the same.

It's also naive to say that there aren't any discriminatory statements ever said around here. There may not be tons of them, but there doesn't have to be. I'm sure the admods aren't just bored and decided to put the banner up without any real reason. I'm sure I read that there have been a inflow of PMs from members complaining about these things. Action was taken based on a real concern.

If you don't like the banner, scroll past it and pretend it's not there. I don't like a lot of topics of discussion on this forum, but I don't comment on them and I don't read them. I find certain topic subjects disturbing and I just scroll past them and read something else. Get over it already :rolleyes:

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Sorry for not taking apart posts and addressing them specifically, I'd just like to add my 2c...

I found AVEN about 9 months ago and was pleasantly surprised by the level of civility in this board and how many diverse opinions are presented and discussed in a civilized manner. And by this, I take under consideration what other people would call arguments and be negative against. I just think that sometimes discussions can get heated and people can present their opinions in a more absolute way than they would if they were calmer, maybe the way their 'opponent' had presented their opinion was mis-interpreted, well, there are many maybes, but this is not relevant.

What I was going to say is that in the recent few months I have been getting this...'vibe'? from AVEN, like it is becoming less welcoming towards sexuals. Posts existing where sexuals are being made fun of, where attributes relevant only to a small part of the sexual population are actually generalized to the majority of sexuals, where even in threads of sexuals reaching out for support on dealing with a relationship with an asexual, some posters would attack the sexual and instead of trying to offer advice they would disregard them...

Let's face it, this general attitude doesn't help with visibility - the main point of the community. It doesn't help sexuals understand us. It isn't welcoming towards them and puts them off. It doesn't even help the new, younger members, when, entering the forum, they are being presented with this anti-sexualism as a way of defending their asexuality (that's what I perceive, anyway).

This kind of attitude can easily become a vicious circle, enforcing this anti-sexuality and ultimately distorting the community's goal.

We don't want to create the 'us' and 'them' division, we don't want to widen the gap. Ideally, we are working on bridging the gap, of gaining the right of being addressed as people whose sexual orientation happens to be 'asexual' or 'demi-sexual' or whatever. We are working on a peaceful CO-EXISTENCE with the rest 99% of the population whose sexual orientation happens to be 'sexual' in general (whatever prefix we use).

Unfortunately, the track we are on is not very favourable to this idea.

I won't write anything about the other stereotypical remarks being made, even though they do exist. In a community there are always different opinions. The problem isn't having the opinion, it's how you express it and how you defend it against people with defFerent opinions.

All in all, I understood why the banner is up, from the moment I saw it. I don't like it, but I hope it is useful and I accept and respect what the mods are trying to do.

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What I was going to say is that in the recent few months I have been getting this...'vibe'? from AVEN, like it is becoming less welcoming towards sexuals. Posts existing where sexuals are being made fun of, where attributes relevant only to a small part of the sexual population are actually generalized to the majority of sexuals, where even in threads of sexuals reaching out for support on dealing with a relationship with an asexual, some posters would attack the sexual and instead of trying to offer advice they would disregard them...

With respect, I disagree. I haven't noticed any spike in the level of antisexual posts in the entire time I've been on AVEN. The posts have been there, but as far as I have seen they've been a minute portion of the posters.

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Well, I'm sure that's how it was intended, but that's not how many have perceived it. To me, the reminder box itself was "out of the blue, unfair, and harsh". Our once-friendly forum was chiding me on every page in a Supernanny sort of way. It really is quite intrusive and joyless.

I was away from AVEN for a bit, so coming back to 'lovely friendly AVEN where people are really welcoming' to see that banner probably had a much larger effect on me than would have been the case had I been back before it appeared.

I honestly am not exaggerating about this - AVEN's felt less-friendly to me since returning because of that banner.

- Discriminatory comments against sexuals do exist, and do come up with regularity. They aren't ubiquitous, but they aren't rare either, and come from a fairly wide set of AVEN's userbase.

Many people who register here have had bad experiences with sexuals; is it not natural for them to want to vent, or to have had their opinions shaped by bad experiences?

I've personally lost friends simply because they were sexual (who fitted the OMG-not-allowed-to-mention stereotypes!) and I was not, in fact, parts of the six-foot-penis thread actually rang true with much of my experience. The only difference between me and some of those who do make discriminatory comments against sexuals is that I would always be extra-careful to make clear I was talking from my experience and not generalising (because I know the majority of sexuals aren't like that at all) - a very easy thing for people to accidentally overlook.

Given sexuals who fit the stereotype exist, and such people can, at times, make life for an asexual extremely difficult, members here should be allowed to mention them. A better warning would be "AVEN does not tolerate discriminatory comments, including generalised remarks about groups such as "sexuals" etc."

If you can come up with a better solution, one that makes AVEN a more welcoming place for everyone involved, I'd love to hear it.

I have come up with several, mainly involving rewording the message in the banner to something more general.

Here's another idea - a 'new forum news, please read' thingy could be added to the top of the index, big red and aggressive if you want, and link to a topic containing a reminder of the ToS.

Want more ideas?

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With respect, I disagree. I haven't noticed any spike in the level of antisexual posts in the entire time I've been on AVEN. The posts have been there, but as far as I have seen they've been a minute portion of the posters.

I haven't either. And in the sexual partners area I've also seen a pretty consistent (but small) amount of anti-asexual comments, too. I don't think it's generally a big deal, but some people have been extremely hurt by sexuals for being asexual or their asexual partner, and it's understandable you'll get some generalizations and hurt words coming from that.

Posts like that have been here for as long as I've been on AVEN, and people have been both using generalizations/stereotypes and railing against them. I haven't noticed a real increase in it directed at any one group or in general.

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I dislike the banner for one main reason... it's that it brings forth a message to everyone that there are a lot of discriminatory remarks flying around constantly... If I didn't frequent AVEN nearly as much as I do my thoughts would be that the red warning sign probably means there are HUGE problems with said behaviour and that it affects a majority of posts (otherwise why would there need to be such a message). I probably wouldn't have tried to set some roots here and just sort of browsed the site over and left as I wouldn't want to involve myself with such harsh attitudes.

I would however consider myself a regular member now, maybe less in some forums than others; Thus I have had time to see a undertone of anti-sexual (specifically) remarks. Personally I find these are brought up by only a select few (with a few more agree-ers) who eventually have their anti-sexual message brought to light by other AVENites who approach the subject with clearer heads. Most of the time I see the overall AVEN population to be very accepting and less discriminatory. I guess my feeling is that the anti- message is often outweighed by the majority of AVENites who take it upon themselves (this includes mods by the way) to call people or statements out. In my mind this and a general ToS reminder to specific parties would be the best way to go about this problem.

Some other points I agree with that were made in this thread:

-The use of the Report feature as users (take it upon ourselves as the people to help clean up these discriminatory remarks whether it be by notifying mods or posting responses ourselves).

-I agree with Shaggy... in the past couple of years society/humanity as a whole have tried to box what is okay and what is not, to an extreme where certain topics are now off-limits instead of open to discussion where enlightenment can or should be had... and maybe this is just another step in this direction that is inevitable in today's world.

-Olivier, when I was rehashing my thoughts about the warning earlier on, your comments hit the nail on the head for me.

To sum up: I dislike the banner, not only as I'm almost offended by it, but because I think it tends to broadcast and invoke the message that the majority of this community leans towards these discriminatory remarks and has gotten out of hand to a point where individuals cannot be pinpointed anymore.

Otherwise, it doesn't really bother me much, other than the fact that every time a thread hits a new page it glares at me in the eyes... it'll be much more calming when the message disappears for awhile.

I also want to state that the mods are doing a great job and they are only trying to do what they think is right for the community. I will stand by their actions, and hope that they can continue to make reasonable decisions with the rest of the AVENites on their minds.

(I apologize for the length of this message. I feel it's a privilege to be here and don't want to come off sounding as though it's my right).

Also... I just want to add that I do see a problem, mostly with anti-sexual remarks that float around from time to time, and that they have been topics of discussion at some of the meet-ups I've taken part in (including being a reasoning behind certain members not wanting to be regular members on the board).

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I do not find the banner offensive or obtrusive.

I have also seen quite a few posts that have struck me as too "anti" (to many people/things) but I'm pretty tolerant and let them slide. Or, I've just been lazy and waited for someone else to speak up.

I guess we all need to use the "Report" button a little more, because it seems the sum of many "anti" posts is greater than we think, if we are in fact scaring off the newbies.

I feel this board has great moderators and administrators. There is a lot of freedom here, especially compared to some other boards I've looked at, but didn't join, because they had such by-the-book moderators. I really like the fact that we don't have to wait for our comments to be moderated before they're posted. If some of the hot-headed complainers don't ease up, we could end up in that situation, which would really take away the conversational aspects of AVEN.

*Joins in humming Imagine*

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Time to chuck my opinion into the mix.

It seems this argument (which shouldn't really be an argument) has gone OTT. The admins are appointed out of the AVEN community to make decisions on its behalf, and they do a brilliant job, too. I also understand that they face a problem about discrimination, not just with sexuals, but with others groups too.

I'll accept and welcome the banner if it is there as a temporary measure, as has been indicated by cash. However, I think it's not needed constantly and permanently. I just think that the message may be off putting to new members. It doesn't bother me personally.

I think it is needed, and do agree that antisexual posts and the like do appear, but the banner doesn't scream at you:"happy and welcoming community". It just might send out the wrong message.

Despite everyone's opinions, the admins have made the decision to put it up there, they believe that it is the best way to cope with the discriminatory posts, so we should just get behind them and live with it.

/chucking opinion into mix

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I like the ToS.

I read it twice before I joined AVEN.

It gave me added comfort that this is a place I would like to spend some time.

Excellent! It's users like you who make our jobs easier!

Of course, a quick survey of the admod forum revealed that a substantial portion of us didn't read the TOS start-to-finish when we first came here. I have to believe that most users don't actually read it. I mean, most of it is just a mixture of "common sense" and "let's play nice", and the majority of people who come here generally understand that kind of stuff already. But very often, we find patterns in what falls through the cracks - hateful comments against sexuals being one, proxies being another, and there's others.

Sure. Get rid of the banner and actually take action against problem users. I'm still struggling to see why that is actually a problem.

If the 6ft penis thread is the main example of the kind of thing that has spurred the warning, I don't think we have much to worry about. The thread is six months old, and even more importantly, still open after 17 pages. So if that thread is indeed discriminatory, the banner at the top is flawed, as the admods obviously do "tolerate" such things.

The problem isn't that it's a few "problem users", the problem is that it's a never-ending game of whack-a-mole. Also, while some of the comments are malicious and excessive, some are just fair and productive people blowing off a little steam after escaping the hypersexualized outside world for a bit. Contrary to what some might say, we in the Admods forum don't like warning people who didn't mean any harm and would follow the rules if they understood how they applied to these comments. So, rather than whack a LOT of moles of a long period of time... hey, why not try to educate them before it happens?

And, yes, that thread is old. But the attitude of AVEN really hasn't shifted much in six months, and the nature of AVEN is cyclical - we get the same threads repeating with varying frequencies. That thread is merely one example that happened to get mentioned already in this thread, and is a particularly obvious example. It also illustrates just how widespread such attitudes go.

But, what, you want us to toss out warnings to every single AVENite who posted something discriminatory or supportive of discrimination against sexuals, in that thread alone? That's... how many, exactly? To my mind, that's an unacceptable solution.

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The problem isn't that it's a few "problem users", the problem is that it's a never-ending game of whack-a-mole. Also, while some of the comments are malicious and excessive, some are just fair and productive people blowing off a little steam after escaping the hypersexualized outside world for a bit. Contrary to what some might say, we in the Admods forum don't like warning people who didn't mean any harm and would follow the rules if they understood how they applied to these comments. So, rather than whack a LOT of moles of a long period of time... hey, why not try to educate them before it happens?

As I said earlier, there are around 1000 posts a day on this board and more than 20 admods. Even if we assume that 1% of posts are problematic (something I find very unlikely), that means 10 posts a day that need some kind of action, whatever that may be. Hardly an impossible task. Secondly, if it's obvious that a user intended no harm in their posts, then there is no issue in the first place, so I struggle to see the relevance of that part here. Warn those who are causing trouble formally. If people are repeatedly causing offence by accident, have a quiet word. How are any of these methods problematic? Unless of course the average admod can't spend a few minutes each day doing such things.

And, yes, that thread is old. But the attitude of AVEN really hasn't shifted much in six months, and the nature of AVEN is cyclical - we get the same threads repeating with varying frequencies. That thread is merely one example that happened to get mentioned already in this thread, and is a particularly obvious example. It also illustrates just how widespread such attitudes go.

So if the attitude hasn't shifted, why is that thread still open? If another user were to start that thread today, would action be taken? If so, then attitudes certainly have shifted. If not, then this whole discussion is redundant already. Either the comments on that thread are acceptable or they aren't. The fact they are allowed to stay without any action and yet such a warning gets thrown across the top of the screen does suggest AVEN itself can't make up it's mind.

But, what, you want us to toss out warnings to every single AVENite who posted something discriminatory or supportive of discrimination against sexuals, in that thread alone? That's... how many, exactly? To my mind, that's an unacceptable solution.

No, I don't want you doing any such thing. Unless a user is being intentionally offensive, I'd rather no such action was taken. The admods, by virtue of the slogan, seem to want something more though.

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As a sexual, I probably notice antisexual comments on AVEN as much as anyone, and I have to disagree with all the posters who say there hasn't been a change over the last six months.

There has been.

For the better.

About a year ago, this sort of stuff was flying thick and fast. Many longer-term AVENites bemoaned how the AVEN of old had changed. Some left. Some got so jack of it all they went and started Apositive.org in part to be free of it. The 6' penis thread was actually a really good indication of where it had all got to - nothing in the start of that thread was actually offensive, but in the antagonistic climate of the time the thread became a battleground for the broader issue to get hammered out, which - largely - it was. Posted in that thread are some very eloquent statements about why AVEN should turn its back on irrational or discriminatory forms of antisexualism.

Since then, not so much.

To win a fight, sometimes there's got to be a fight. We had one. But for the most part, it's over. Been over for ages.

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Also, while some of the comments are malicious and excessive, some are just fair and productive people blowing off a little steam after escaping the hypersexualized outside world for a bit. Contrary to what some might say, we in the Admods forum don't like warning people who didn't mean any harm and would follow the rules if they understood how they applied to these comments.

[snipped]

But, what, you want us to toss out warnings to every single AVENite who posted something discriminatory or supportive of discrimination against sexuals, in that thread alone? That's... how many, exactly? To my mind, that's an unacceptable solution.

Okay. Fair enough. So... some discriminatory statements are okay, because the person didn't really mean to be discriminatory, and the admods don't have time to warn people for them anyway.

I actually agree with that, except that apparently [in big red letters] AVEN does not tolerate discriminatory statements.

Isn't there, um, a bit of a contradiction here?

[Edited for clearer wording.]

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So if the attitude hasn't shifted, why is that thread still open?

I was referring to the attitude of the general AVEN population. I think it's safe to say that the Admods, while they've never been supportive of these kinds of comments, are taking a stronger stance now. If someone revived that thread, or made a similar one, I suspect the Admods would agree to lock it. As it is, we aren't in the habit of locking threads that are dead and gone.

No, I don't want you doing any such thing. Unless a user is being intentionally offensive, I'd rather no such action was taken. The admods, by virtue of the slogan, seem to want something more though.

Surely you recognize that someone can be offensive, without being intentionally offensive? If we only warn the latter, that leaves a fair amount of the former floating around. Actually, I'd say that the large majority of comments in question fall into the former category. We could send PMs to every single one.... but we're back to whack-a-mole, and at a way faster rate.

The admods are unpaid, untrained, (generally) unappreciated volunteers, who have dayjobs and families and lives. Admin attrition rate is high, and most of that's burnout - people who get so sick of dealing with every user who starts drama, and then often get chewed out whatever their solution is, that they can't take the job any more. This job is emotionally draining as it is; ramping up our workload like that is not a solution that's going to fly.

Now, in a month, this banner goes down. Hopefully that's long enough for AVEN to get the message, and if so then this particular banner need not come back. If you want to keep it that way, then maybe you'd like the job of PMing anyone who innocently makes potentially offensive comments? Reading every post, composing every suitably diplomatic PM, dealing with any questions or backlash?

If so, you're welcome to run for Mod at next election.

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I was referring to the attitude of the general AVEN population. I think it's safe to say that the Admods, while they've never been supportive of these kinds of comments, are taking a stronger stance now. If someone revived that thread, or made a similar one, I suspect the Admods would agree to lock it. As it is, we aren't in the habit of locking threads that are dead and gone.

Fair enough. So even if the attitude of AVEN hasn't changed, the attitude of the admods has. Which was pretty much my original point.

Surely you recognize that someone can be offensive, without being intentionally offensive? If we only warn the latter, that leaves a fair amount of the former floating around. Actually, I'd say that the large majority of comments in question fall into the former category. We could send PMs to every single one.... but we're back to whack-a-mole, and at a way faster rate.

Of course people can be offensive unintentionally. If they are though, and assuming a vast majority of reasonable members can see that, no action is required at all. We all make comments that can be taken the wrong way, and no action, giant banner at the top or otherwise, is going to change that.

The admods are unpaid, untrained, (generally) unappreciated volunteers, who have dayjobs and families and lives. Admin attrition rate is high, and most of that's burnout - people who get so sick of dealing with every user who starts drama, and then often get chewed out whatever their solution is, that they can't take the job any more. This job is emotionally draining as it is; ramping up our workload like that is not a solution that's going to fly.

Meh, I sympathise to a degree, but people should only be taking the position on if they are willing to accept what comes with it. If that means dealing with problem members directly and listening to complaints, so be it.

Now, in a month, this banner goes down. Hopefully that's long enough for AVEN to get the message, and if so then this particular banner need not come back. If you want to keep it that way, then maybe you'd like the job of PMing anyone who innocently makes potentially offensive comments? Reading every post, composing every suitably diplomatic PM, dealing with any questions or backlash?

If so, you're welcome to run for Mod at next election.

Already did. Alas I don't post enough inane blather in JFF to get elected.

I would gladly do it. I already get paid to do such things on thousands of posts each day, so it wouldn't make much difference to me. The fact that a 22 member admod team can't manage themselves is vaguely absurd though.

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When I joined AVEN a year and a half ago, I noticed the Partners and Allies section and was impressed with how patient, polite, and informative AVEN asexual members were with sexual people who wrote in conflicted by their relationships with partners who could be asexual. In most cases, sexual partners were quite polite in asking information. In others, they complained mightily about how they'd been lied to, etc. by their asexual partners. Regardless, they were welcomed to AVEN, with only a few exceptions. I've noticed only a few exceptions of spontaneous comments about sexuals. The banner's OK if mods think it's necessary. But considering this is a website primarily designed for asexuals, a few complaints about treatment by asexuals seems not unnatural.

Ironically, yesterday, before I'd noticed the banner, I saw a comment on a thread which talked about "c*nts" in relation to two particular women (on a TV show, I believe). I posted a reply to the person who used that word who replied essentially that s/he didn't see a problem. I PMed a moderator, who may have PMed the person; can't tell. But that sort of thing is inexcuseable. However, since the banner says "such as sexuals", I doubt if the poster who used that word would think it applied to him/her. So----how about a more general banner?

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I would gladly do it. I already get paid to do such things on thousands of posts each day, so it wouldn't make much difference to me. The fact that a 22 member admod team can't manage themselves is vaguely absurd though.

22?

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