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The Evil Cashew

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To clarify where I stand, I'm firmly in the "take no action" camp. I don't believe this site needs the level of moderation that many here believe it does. All comments should be fair game short of pure abuse and spam.

I completely agree with this - I really have never had the feeling any of the admod team have ever been too mod-happy and controlling, but I do think you should back off even further.

I'm a member of a completely unmoderated forum, and it works perfectly - people used to moderated forums would probably expect such a thing to dissolve into chaos, but it never has. If you posted something bigoted or stupid there, you'd be called on it by multiple people and torn to pieces, no matter how respected a member you were...and then life moves on, with the attacked member a little bit wiser (hopefully).

Not that I think we should ever do that here at AVEN; I just think a little less moderation and a bit more freedom of speech wouldn't hurt for as long as you allow both.

All I've really said on this thread is that if the admods want the TOS to be enforced more strongly, that should be done rather than silly measures like the banner above. Of course I'd rather no action (reconciling with my overall position), but am arguing from a point of view that the admods want to do something.

There's also the report button that members could, and should, use to draw attention to a thread they find offensive. Tell people about it and get them to use it - the chances are that if you encourage it enough, the really TOS-breaking threads would be reported and the ones that aren't, well, obviously the members are fine with.

Then we could have:

"This forum does not tolerate discriminatory comments. If you think a post or thread breaks the ToS (found here[link]), please use the report button to bring it to the attention of the admod team. Thank you."

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Reptile:

I undertand you want examples, please see my edit for the one i can remember offhand. There are many comments that are just imbedded in posts and i dont personally recall where i have seen EVERY SINGLE one. I'll try to dig up some for you. (as i am sure cole will too as she mentionned) or even other admods as they log in. However at this moment I cannot. Forgive me for the delay.

I don’t really want to rehash the whole Mormon thing, as there is a special thread (two in fact) dealing with that issue. But the gist of it was that there was no real anti-Mormon sentiment or comment made. The people who made those “anti Mormon” comments were most certainly not anti Mormon. What they said was taken out of context. Second, I clearly remember what they said and it wasn’t offensive in my opinion (reasoning in those two threads).

And yeah, there certainly were a few anti posts made (many anti women, mostly from one particular user, but that is also not something I want to rehash) but that’s actually very few posts. And that should be dealt with at the time/place of incidence in my opinion. AVEN is remarkably free of discriminatory comments. Also, I am really curious what definition of “discriminatory comment” you are following, because it seems to me we might actually be talking about entirely different things and most of the examples you do bring I’ll simply see as green and you red…… :unsure:

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This might help Olivier... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=trCCCUVOBnY

*Better is Peace than Always War*

Darn it, posts being posted while I'm composing my post...OK, I stopped to watch Carl Jenkins...but you see there are people who take exception to anti sentiments. And one of (if not the main) aim of AVEN is 'education'...now if we antagonize people who log on then we fail in that aim, and if by a temporary and changing reminder to all members we can make newbies feel welcome, then that is as much as we can hope for.

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Yeah guys, sorry if I am a bit tense here, I just enjoy the intense threads a lot! And with threads like this I feel akin to a kid whose favourite toy is threatened to be taken away… :unsure:

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and if by a temporary and changing reminder to all members we can make newbies feel welcome, then that is as much as we can hope for.

Could it not make things more daunting for newbies though?

The implication kind of being that this is a place where discriminatory comments are posted to such a degree a banner like that is required..

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It's always possible, eddie, just as it's possible I may be abducted by aliens tomorrow (maybe I was yesterday). Anyway, it's now 2am and I have to be upa t 0730 so excuse me while I try to get a few hours sleep before my day starts again.

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Whilst I find the banner a little intimidating I understand its purpose. Perhaps it would be less intimidating if it didn't specify one of the groups. Perhaps if it just ended at 'comments' or 'remarks'? Then no one group would be singled out for martyrdom, although I must admit they are probably one of the groups that gets bashed the most.

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I'm new to these forums and I've been up, down, left, and right all over these threads for the past few days. I haven't seen barely any discriminatory comments at all. If I did see one, it was so harmless that it didn't affect me at all. So far, I've found AVEN to be the friendliest community I have ever come across and I feel so free to be myself. I also like how people seem to just tolerate each other, no matter the differing opinions. That is, at least, my take of what I have seen thus far. :)

*hums "Imagine" with CBCRadiogirl*

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Ahem... people...

I have to say this: I agree with the annoying new red thing...

WHY???

Well, for one thing, there has been a lot of sexist stuff around here, some of which is really sick & brutal, like, for instance, that thing about how women should be farmed like other domesticated animals, or that one about how women were less intelligent than men... and then there was the nice KKK stuff, which the "powers that be" around here were quick enough to delete, there was if I recall correctly, some racial & ethnic stuff, some unkind anti-Catholic stuff, anti-Christian stuff (don't recall any anti-atheist stuff, though)...

AND SOMETHING REALLY NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT THAT!!!

Freedom of expression, yeah, fine. Okay. But there has to be line drawn somewhere!

It cannot go on like this. It will destroy this community if it's allowed to go on like this.

Something needs to be done.

From now on, when this kind of disgusting stuff appears, it needs to be dealt with, and right away.

I once again ask the People in Charge to please be kind enough to delete such horrid crap suggesting that women should be "farmed like animals," and so on, just like they deleted the KKK stuff. It would really be the right thing to do.

And perhaps instead of just mentioning such groups as "sexuals," perhaps it would be wise to add "gender, race, religion, ethnic group, your group in this space here... "

I mean, enough is enough, okay?

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(don't recall any anti-atheist stuff, though)...

I'm fairly certain there has been - though it probably was never intended in a deliberately offensive manner - in the 'if you don't believe in God you're going to Hell' form.

And perhaps instead of just mentioning such groups as "sexuals," perhaps it would be wise to add "gender, race, religion, ethnic group, your group in this space here... "

I do agree with this - a more general banner would have been much better than the one we currently have. Ideally I'd just like to see a 'remember to check the forum rules before posting' one, but I realise that doesn't deal with the problem the admod team were addressing when they created the current one.

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It cannot go on like this. It will destroy this community if it's allowed to go on like this.

You know, if everyone happily believed in the exact same thing as everyone else, you would not have a community. You would have a cult.

People thrive on conversations with people who think differently than themselves. It's how you learn to view things in a different way, to prompt you to research something you might not have thought about before, to try to experience the world the way someone else does. Sure, there will be people who take it way over the top and offend others. That will always happen within a multi-cultural community. And, the best thing about the community is that there are going to be people there who disagree and are willing and able to discuss it! If you don't like intense discussions, avoid going into the threads where they arise. Don't try to censor other people based on your hurt feelings. If someone says something insulting or stupid, the rest of the community is there to TELL them why they are wrong, to talk about it, not just be deleted into oblivion.

AVEN is by far the friendliest, most inclusive online community I've ever been on. And a big part of that is that people feel free to express themselves. Let's not stop that now because of a few hurt feelings. Let's talk about them and learn something from them.

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Wow ... there sure is a lot of fuss over something which is barely a few hours old.

The banner is here to stay, folks.

Get used to it.

That being said, however, it is not in any sort of permanent form and it isn't intended to be. (One of the first prototypes was in giant font and it was bright red! Be thankful we nixed that one.)

The plan is to rotate the message on a regular basis, and it will probably not be posted in all of the forums for more than a week or two - eventually it will only be in the ones which seem most likely to have problems. That is, unless we start gettting problems where we don't expect them.

The whole point of the banner is to gently remind people of the TOS before warnings have to be issued.

And reptile lover ... the responsibilities of the admod team are clearly defined, and they do NOT include explaning ourselves or providing statistics to justify our actions. If we choose to explain why we do something it is due to common courtesy, not obligation.

-GB

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I'm sure some people think I'm an arrogant shit for holding my beliefs strongly - they certainly do in real life - and I'm fine with that.
You and me both :o

That said, I'm relatively indifferent to the banner personally.

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Wow ... there sure is a lot of fuss over something which is barely a few hours old.

The banner is here to stay, folks.

Get used to it.

Firstly, I'd just like to say that the admod team here seem to an admirable job, and if they want to put a banner up to deal with a perceived problem with discriminatory posts, then I'm fine with that.

Just as long as they're fine with people like me expressing the opinion that the banner is a harsh, unfriendly, condescending, knee-jerk overreaction to a problem best dealt with in other ways, then we're all good.

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silentdreamer

The banner is fine. It's just a box with some text in it. Get over it :mellow: Maybe people will stop whining if the text was made a little smaller? The size of the text is intimidating people?

I don't think this forum should be a free-for-all where people get to say whatever they want and hurt whoever they want. No one says we all have to get along and be sugary nice to each other, but there should be some level of civility and respect given to each other. We're here for support and understanding and that's hard to find when you're being insulted for your beliefs, race, lifestyle, etc.

It's just a line of code people. Not a personal attack against you.

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... the banner is a harsh, unfriendly, condescending, knee-jerk overreaction to a problem best dealt with in other ways ...

Awww, come on Olivier. Don't be shy. Tell us how you REALLY feel about it! :P

To be honest, I always thought that warnings were a lot more unfriendly, but then that's just me ...

-GB

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To be honest, I always thought that warnings were a lot more unfriendly, but then that's just me ...

The warnings only affect those who get them though (and they almost certainly deserve them, so as far as I'm concerned they can be as unfriendly as possible), but that banner's potentially being unfriendly toward everyone.

...I'll go and tell it to play nicely, shall I? :lol:

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I'm actually really glad you guys put that banner up. I've been quite bothered by some comments and attitude I've seen on here lately. They haven't been aimed towards me, but I know I don't want such comments to be associated with this community.

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SorryNotSorry
Would it not make more sense to warn or take action against those that are a problem rather than penalising all of us with this thing across the top?

It's kind of ruined any kind of subtly the board had for uses in work places and the such now.

Understandable. On ham radio, we deal with jammers pretty much the same way trolls are dealt with online... ignore them, or if they don't take the hint, shut them out of the loop. Keeping track of who posted which comments from which IP addresses is not all that different from identifying a signal from a particular transmitter. We have the technology, so let's use it without doing something drastic.

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I'm a sexual partner, and you know what? The antisexualism here doesn't bother me at all. Firstly, it's really rare for it to be expressed in a generalised or offensive way, and calm response usually results in a retraction of the generalisation, if not the sentiment. I actually enjoyed the "6' penis" thread, as I have enjoyed threads where atheism has been belittled in an ignorant fashion. If someone expresses themselves ignorantly, I don't get personally offended (I don't even know these people, and they don't know me, and I certainly don't have the energy to waste on getting het up every time someone on the internet behaves like a tosser) but it does change my opinion of the poster for the worse. So be it. I'm sure some people think I'm an arrogant shit for holding my beliefs strongly - they certainly do in real life - and I'm fine with that.

The reminder just seems so condescending. Either people are clearly breaching the TOS, in which case warn them regardless of whether they complain, or they're not, in which case we're all good. The tone of AVEN pre-reminder is in my experience already incredibly inclusive and rational and calm, so I think that the reminder is a bit over the top, as is a desire to avoid "adverse comments". That just sounds like we shouldn't express a judgement on anything. How dull (and dishonest).

But judgments are necessarily discriminatory. :)

Okay, Olivier, I do not think you are an arrogant shit, and I sometimes appreciate your wit, on the forums. As for the warning, I can speculate about the motivations for it, but reserve making a conclusion. I presume it was not intended to be interpreted as condescension, and I'm not in a position to blame whomever is responsible for the warning, for my own interpretation; after all, as has been stated, the admods are not obliged to explain themselves, and as long as they don't, we won't know precisely why the warning is there. I am not privy to admod discussions, however, it can be fun to speculate (without drawing conclusions). My guess is that the reason for the warning is not only about hurt feelings on the part of the membership here, as it is about media attention (visibility) and scrutiny by outsiders. If this was not the principal concern, I would at least bet that it has crossed minds. I would bet that, in some part, it's a matter of public relations.

Now, regarding discrimination... as I mentioned, judgments are discriminatory. It is a discriminatory statement to say that red is a longer wavelength than green, that five quarters is worth more than a dollar, that cats are not dogs. So, if someone says discriminatory comments are not tolerated (which is later clarified as "all discriminatory comments"), I don't want to say it's disingenuous, but it is confused, or confusing. Clearly the statement is not precisely true, because surely some sorts of discriminatory comments are tolerated now, and some always will. Now, some people may say (hypothetical people, as "some people" usually are) that there's no reason to specify which discriminatory comments are tolerated, and which are not, which stereotypical remarks are tolerated, and which or not, that there's no reason to specify, because we all already know what they are. There are a couple of problems with that. The first would be, if we already know, then there's no need for a warning. The second problem is, we don't know what they are. In fact, the admods don't even know what they are, because they haven't considered every possible permutation of what might be said. Presumably, they have a sort of general idea, but the warning offers no guidance regarding that, that I can tell.

I have no idea what conversation involving Mormons occurred, which was so controversial. If I was a part of it, I don't recall. I presume that discussing Mormons has not become off limits since then. I presume that there are some things you can say about Mormons, and some you cannot. I don't know exactly what these things are. I presume that this is the case with any other group about which we might have opinions. I would guess that it's perfectly alright to make the stereotypical comment that Roman Catholics believe in the Trinity, or that Muslims believe that there is no God but Allah (and Mohammed is his prophet). Okay, I'm not out on a limb here. What else can be said? I don't know. I haven't been warned yet. I am quite opinionated, about religion, politics, gender... and many things. Though I've ruffled some feathers, no doubt, my posts have been pretty tame compared to what I might have said. I have a good bit of unexpressed contempt for a lot of my fellow humans, and even more for their institutions. Oh, besides contempt, there's also pity. There are many I wish well (and well away from me). I care for a lot of people more than I care for their company. Indeed, I'm a really caring, compassionate and nice person. A lot of people wouldn't want to know me, and in those cases, the feeling is usually mutual. If my words, on occasion, offend, it is not my intent. In my words, I am not necessarily responsible for others' interpretations. In general, I am indifferent to them.

I can't think of any times when I have been angered by comments here. Sometimes disappointed, but not angered. Certainly, people disagree with me, all the time, but why should I take them seriously, when they are so clearly wrong?

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I don't think this forum should be a free-for-all where people get to say whatever they want and hurt whoever they want. No one says we all have to get along and be sugary nice to each other, but there should be some level of civility and respect given to each other. We're here for support and understanding and that's hard to find when you're being insulted for your beliefs, race, lifestyle, etc.

I agree, AVEN should be accepting and civil and respectful. As far as I can see it already is. Those who behave outside the TOS by posting unfairly discrimantory text and threaten that sense of community should be warned. If they keep doing it, they should be banned.

I can only think of a handful of problem cases in over a year. In most, warnings or bannings fixed the problem. In one poster's case, nothing at all was done, and the problem persisted. For what it's worth I'm not including the Mormon case, which I saw before the "offensive" content was removed - I'm still struggling to see how the hell it qualified as offensive, but perhaps I'm just really hard to offend.

I can't think of any times when I have been angered by comments here. Sometimes disappointed, but not angered. Certainly, people disagree with me, all the time, but why should I take them seriously, when they are so clearly wrong?

Gatto, we are in complete agreement on this :) ;)

I'm not angered by the reminder box, just disappointed, and quite convinced it's wrong, to the point where if find its presence mildly offensive. Is this thread a good place to ask that content that offends me be removed? ;)

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Wow! I am surprised by how upset people seem to be here about this.

I need to say when I opened AVEN up today (during a break at work none the less) I had thought I had done or said something wrong when I saw that banner. I than realized it was not me and just something new. I think I was upset over it for about maybe 10 seconds. I just don't see what the big deal is.

I am always surprised what the Admons here have to deal with. I think it is great for them to donate their time to try to keep AVEN civil. I know of one person who was a frequent poster on here who has been banned and I never understood really why since her threats and ramblings and attacks were removed before I read them. Once again I just want to thank all the Admons for what they do on their own free time here.

I am totally against a lack of free speech and often enjoy threads that debate peoples different views. I just think people need to be civil and it seems like that is all the admons are trying to do here. I never read the TOS when I signed up. I don't think I read them for well over a year. I don't see what harm is done having a rotation banner on top to let people know them.

I have been a member for a little over two years and I have noticed that the amount of posts each day have increased a lot. Maybe we need to elect more Mods to help keep up with increase of posts?

I have also noticed more and more and more younger people on here. Nothing wrong with that, but I would like to think of AVEN as a welcoming place rather than a threatening place with so much drama all the time.

There are a lot of people on here so I doubt everyone will always agree and get along all the time, but can't we calm down just all be nice to each other.

Well I am really tired from lack of sleep in the last few days and probably not making much sense. I just wanted to share my thoughts.

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I don't mind the banner's message or that it's there, but I think the font is a bit large. It kind of "punishes" everybody by being in-your-face like that.

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(my non-modly, possibly controversial opinion)

One thing I think people fail to realise sometimes is that forums are not public places. But rather a service that some private citizen(s) of the world has decided to provide us with. It's true of 90% of the places on the net, and as such they tend to have rules and regulations as to how they'd like people to behave whilst using their service. And if they should decide that they feel the need to remind people on these rules, that is their prerogative.

It amuses me how people get and how they react when service providers do stuff like this...as though the use of a service is a right, and that the privilege that it actually is.

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And reptile lover ... the responsibilities of the admod team are clearly defined, and they do NOT include explaning ourselves or providing statistics to justify our actions. If we choose to explain why we do something it is due to common courtesy, not obligation.

-GB

Sigh. I don’t have a problem with the banner. As always, I have a problem with the introductory post – it talked about all this anti-sexuals (with them being signalled out the most), anti-religious, anti- whatever “infestation” going around on AVEN, none of which I’ve observed anywhere. You did not provide any evidence of the “infestation” so, in fact, what was made was convert PERSONAL ATTACK (you know, that’s actually against the tos) on some AVEN members. No, admins do not have to explain why they do stuff they do (unless they are abusing their position, and the inquirer provides reasoning for why they think abuse of position happened. And no, I don't think any of you abused your position so far), and I didn’t ask you why you did your adminly whatever and put the banner out. I asked you why you did a seeming PERSONAL ATTACK (any negative statment/claim on person/group of people for which no reasoning/examples of why you think it's negative behaviour are shown) on a group of people and asked to provide some evidence for your reasoning so as to it not be a personal attack any longer. And that is your duty as a member (especially of the admod variety). Because PERSONAL ATTACKS are against the violation of tos.

And yeah, saihr, if avenguy made that banner, and had written that introductory post, you wouldn’t have heard a peep from this reptilelover. As things stand now, I have every right to complain, especially if I know the reasoning (kindly/not so kindly provided by introductory post) why it came to be. He is the only one "outside" the tos, the rest of you/us aren't yet (at least I am not aware of it).

And thylacine, only one particular poster posted blatantly anti-women stuff on AVEN. The reason this happened was because, for whatever reason, admins decided not to warn and tolarete comments like that.

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I find the banner annoying. I trust that there truly have been some over-the-top posts which motivated the decision to put it up, but, like many others, I'm hard-pressed to come up with any right now (well, take that back; there was one slur made earlier today, and responded to by another member, and I agree with the respondent).

If one or another of the admods is willing to give us a few good examples of offensive statements, I also will appreciate it.

My specific concern about the banner relates to the impression it makes on newbies, many of whom are--as one sees while reading posts in the Welcome Lounge--on the rebound from offensive treatment in the world at large. On their first day at AVEN, they have discovered a paired opposition: asexual and sexual. For the first time, they recognize in their friends and peers what they are not: sexual.

People who have been knocked around and marginalized for being different need a place to blow off steam. If in the process of discovering sexuals as a category, they fall back on stereotypes and generalizations, that seems a natural process to me. They need guidance. I see this as a transitory phase for many or most. I don't think we should be shouting from the rafters that they can't blow off steam here about the people who have been making them miserable. I did some of that on arrival; I am glad I felt free to do so. It was part of my own self-discovery.

Finally, I must say that I am grateful for the work you admods do here. I consider it a privilege to be here.

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And yeah, saihr, if avenguy made that banner, and had written that introductory post, you wouldn’t have heard a peep from this reptilelover. As things stand now, I have every right to complain, especially if I know the reasoning (kindly/not so kindly provided by introductory post) why it came to be. He is the only one "outside" the tos, the rest of you/us aren't yet (at least I am not aware of it).

This is possibly the most bullshit reason I have ever heard for why to voice or not voice an opinion. I'm sorry, but really? It would just take his magic words to make everything right again? Really? Just a friendly reminder here, but DJ created an Admod team to do things like this, to run AVEN because he can not/will not do it anymore! Additionally, with a statement like that, you're practically saying that the only person you will listen to is him. If he requests to have something done, you'll listen, and if anyone else requests it, then they can shove off. It's incredibly arrogant. At this point, I have absolutely no desire to cater to your earlier requests, because, really. What's the use? I'm no David Jay.

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