New banners in the forums

[The Evil Cashew]

By now you have probably noticed the big, red box at the top of the fora, and you might be wondering why it is there.

AVEN has been seeing a great deal of anti-expressions, lately. Recently, the admods have had to deal with multiple instances of language which specifically singles out particular groups for derision. We have seen racially charged statements, statements aimed at those of particular faiths, statements aimed at people of specific sexual orientations – even sexism and ageism. We have tried to deal with all of these issues as they have occurred; however, the admods cannot be everywhere at once and cannot see everything, even though we do try. This has led some to suggest that, since the admod team has failed to act on each and every one of these statements, our enforcement of the Terms of Service is biased toward those groups we favor most. This is simply not true.

Due to these comments, as well as many recent anti-sexual comments on AVEN, the admod team felt that we should find a way to remind anyone who might come here that AVEN is a place open to everyone. Sweeping generalizations and comments that demean groups are not welcome on AVEN regardless of whether they target race, creed, color, gender, sexuality, occupation, blood type -- or any other factor that might reasonably make one person different from another. AVEN's main goal is to boost visibility and education about asexuality. Discussion with sexuals is necessary for this end. If we make sexuals feel unwelcome here, then this discussion cannot happen.

The current message in the box is intended as a disclaimer, much like the one which now resides in the Hot Box. It is not our intention to leave this exact message at the top of every AVEN forum for all time. The message will be changed fairly regularly either to point out particular parts of the Terms of Service (as it is now), or for general forum-wide announcements or events, or we may take it down at times.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to msg anyone from the admod team

~The Admod Team

[reptilelover]

I have not seen much discriminatory remarks lately, much less of the anti-sexual variety (on the other hand, anti women, and anti-antisexual there were a few). So to repeat my self (as I did many times before) could someone please put the exact definition of what “discriminatory comment” is because, frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about here.

So yeah, please:

1) some quotes, who said these “discriminatory comments” towards sexuals/other groups

2) Why do you think they are discriminatory

3) don’t take people’s words out of context

4) the percentage of threads that actually have these “discriminatory comments” in them. Yeah, I want a list because I don’t see this infestation of anti whatever on aven.

And one more thing, would you guys stop the anti-antisexual witch-hunt/bashing already! No they are not elitists, they are not racists, they are not whatever other PERSONAL INSULTS and DISCRIMINATORY COMMENTS you guys have flung on them – they are (mostly) decent people. In fact, I’ve never seen any of you engage with an anti-sexual and manage to actually prove any of your claims of elitism.

[Eddie7]

Would it not make more sense to warn or take action against those that are a problem rather than penalising all of us with this thing across the top?

It's kind of ruined any kind of subtly the board had for uses in work places and the such now.

[reptilelover]

Yeah, and one more thing – what the hell is so wrong with stereotypes that you make such a big boogie man out of them? Stereotypes do not arise based on nothing. They are a part of how human brain works, how we analyse the data etc. It is a normal/natural part of human thought processes to make categories and put stuff in those categories. There is nothing wrong with stereotypes as long as one is aware it is only an estimation and to take them with a dose of reserve if you are meeting someone new. So yeah, please stop asking the impossible or close the entire AVEN board for all sort of discussions for anything other then strictly visibility oriented stuff as that is the only way you’ll not have “stereotypes” and “stereotypical comments” (perhaps not even then).

[Tanwen]

No-one is being penalised; we are reminded that different orientations/beliefs come here. Some asexuals are in a relationship with sexuals; so how does it help them if the sexual partner logs on to see antisexual comments...threads where statements that all sexuals are stupid, talking to sexuals is like talking to a 6' penis??? We have some members whose religion matters a great deal to them yet their beliefs are trivialised, male, female, intersexed and transgendered, vegetarian, meat eaters, those who like to wear fur - all at some time have been on the receiving end of adverse comments. A little consideration and co-operation goes a long way.

Sorry, Reptile Lover, you'll have to do your own research, it's now nearly 0030 in the UK and I will be off to bed soon.

[Eddie7]

No-one is being penalised

Debatable. I'm far less comfortable with the idea of loading the site in the office or in a public place now with that splattered across the top.

The reason I use the alternative blue theme is so the site remains utterly anonymous.

I generally agree with Eddie's sentiments, but at the same time, I'm not sure why it's quite such a big deal with some other people. What's so wrong about a reminder to be respectful of others..?

I've no problem with the sentiment, even if it seems a tad pointless. Just the application of it really.

[Lekzýs]

What's so wrong about a reminder to be respectful of others..?

For me it's the wording - it's less of a 'respect others' and more of an 'anti-sexualism is wrong'. If that latter clause were removed, it would turn into a nice reminder to remain respectful and nothing more, but in its current state, it isn't.

[Tanwen]

As a Civil Servant I was not allowed access to the internet...work computers were for work purposes only. So, should you really be accessing AVEN at work, even in your lunch break? Unless of course you're the boss in which casse no-one can say anything to you...;)

[Coleslaw]

Oh good god, people.

This is really ridiculous. It is a comment merely reminding everyone to stop with all discriminatory comments. It is not aimed at one group of discriminatory comments, but all. Why is the example "sexuals"? Because some people seem to forget that they are included in that statement, on a site where being asexual is a majority group and being sexual is a sparse minority. That's all! Nothing more, nothing less!

Nothing on AVEN has changed yet. It's a reminder. Please, chill out, and if this is still making you angry in 24 hours, I will personally indulge your request and find you posts that would normally break the TOS and yet we have let slide.

[Tanwen]

What's so wrong about a reminder to be respectful of others..?

For me it's the wording - it's less of a 'respect others' and more of an 'anti-sexualism is wrong'. If that latter clause were removed, it would turn into a nice reminder to remain respectful and nothing more, but in its current state, it isn't.

The wording was debated long and hard. It all depends on one's interpretation and 'if what I say can be taken in two ways, one of which is going to make you mad...I meant the other one' ;)

[Eddie7]

As a Civil Servant I was not allowed access to the internet...work computers were for work purposes only. So, should you really be accessing AVEN at work, even in your lunch break? Unless of course you're the boss in which casse no-one can say anything to you...;)

Not the boss, but we're certainly allowed to do whatever we like on our breaks. It doesn't change all that much for me as I'm not in the office very often, but it seems a tad over the top. A sticky across all boards would be more logical.

Nothing on AVEN has changed yet. It's a reminder. Please, chill out, and if this is still making you angry in 24 hours, I will personally indulge your request and find you posts that would normally break the TOS and yet we have let slide.

Excellent! The problem with that though is that it establishes one of two scenarios:

1. Admods aren't doing their jobs properly.

2. The content was allowed to "slide" intentionally, undermining any additional steps such as the slogan at the top.

(Yeah yeah, sorry for being "that guy" again..)

[reptilelover]

Sorry, Reptile Lover, you'll have to do your own research, it's now nearly 0030 in the UK and I will be off to bed soon.

No, it is not my job to do this “research”. It is your job as an admin to do it, and post your reasoning transparently for all to see (and if it is too late now, then you can always post later). And if you are already signaling people out to be offensive, I am being garcious enouh to give you the benefit of doubt to actually have good reasons/statistics for your claims as opposed to merely making a sort of ad homminem towards a group of people with whose views/likes/dislikes you disagree. Frankly, if it’s the latter case here at play (as my stereotype oriented brain tells me it probably is), that’s just plain insulting and abuse of mod function (unless avenguy is backing you up on this in which case I’d like him to state so clearly so I’ll know what I am dealing with here).

And yeah, Coleslaw, you still havent given any of the:

1) some quotes, who said these “discriminatory comments” towards sexuals/other groups

2) Why do you think they are discriminatory

3) don’t take people’s words out of context

4) the percentage of threads that actually have these “discriminatory comments” in them. Yeah, I want a list because I don’t see this infestation of anti whatever on aven.

[Tanwen]

Admods do have rl situations to deal with...I'm here either after work (in the early hours when I'm not in the best of moods because I've just finished work and am tired) or before work (when I'm inclined to be ratty because I don't want to go) we cannot be here 24/7 we cannot read every single post that is made we are human (and we don't get paid, there is no kudos just a lot of grief) we do the best we can and always remember it is impossible to please all the people all fo the time...heck I'd settle for now and again.

[Eddie7]

Admods do have rl situations to deal with...I'm here either after work (in the early hours when I'm not in the best of moods because I've just finished work and am tired) or before work (when I'm inclined to be ratty because I don't want to go) we cannot be here 24/7 we cannot read every single post that is made we are human (and we don't get paid, there is no kudos just a lot of grief) we do the best we can and always remember it is impossible to please all the people all fo the time...heck I'd settle for now and again.

The individual board moderators should be able to read everything within their own boards though. AVEN isn't so highly trafficked that this would be impossible.

But that there are supposedly posts that admins know exist that break the TOS without action being taken kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing.

[Tanwen]

Sorry, Reptile Lover, you'll have to do your own research, it's now nearly 0030 in the UK and I will be off to bed soon.

No, it is not my job to do this “research”. It is your job as an admin to do it, and post your reasoning transparently for all to see (and if it is too late now, then you can always post later). And if you are already signaling people out to be offensive, I am being garcious enouh to give you the benefit of doubt to actually have good reasons/statistics for your claims as opposed to merely making a sort of ad homminem towards a group of people with whose views/likes/dislikes you disagree. Frankly, if it’s the latter case here at play (as my stereotype oriented brain tells me it probably is), that’s just plain insulting and abuse of mod function (unless avenguy is backing you up on this in which case I’d like him to state so clearly so I’ll know what I am dealing with here).

No it isn't my job. My job is as a merchandiser in a supermarket. That is what I'm paid for, that is a job. This is because I want ot give something back to acommunity that means a lot to me. We cannot hope for understanding and acceptance if we are not prepared to give it

[Tanwen]

The individual board moderators should be able to read everything within their own boards though. AVEN isn't so highly trafficked that this would be impossible.

But that there are supposedly posts that admins know exist that break the TOS without action being taken kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing.

There is the time diffence thing - posts can be made while the mod is at school/work/asleep/having a social life. Plus they are not omnipotent beings. They may consider that a post contravenes the TOS, but needs to discuss whether others also see the statement in the same way. On a message board we lose the intonation of speech that indicates sarcasm. And whatever is decided you can bet someone on the board will disagree and start yelling 'censorship'

[Lekzýs]

Presumably, if an anti-sexual posted a topic calling all sexuals stupid, and someone else responded to that topic and called the anti-sexual a 'stupid anti-sexual bigot', both would receive the same warning level/whatever, right?

[reptilelover]

No it isn't my job. My job is as a merchandiser in a supermarket. That is what I'm paid for, that is a job. This is because I want ot give something back to acommunity that means a lot to me. We cannot hope for understanding and acceptance if we are not prepared to give it

It’s your job because you have volunteered for the position. You have willingly taken the admin position, knowing what your responsibilities are. If you are unable/unwilling to do it then resign. But a job it is. Unpaid, but still a job.

And yeah, I am asking for a demonstration of this understanding and acceptance by asking you to provide me any of the:

1)some quotes, who said these “discriminatory comments” towards sexuals/other groups

2) Why do you think they are discriminatory

3) don’t take people’s words out of context

4) the percentage of threads that actually have these “discriminatory comments” in them. Yeah, I want a list because I don’t see this infestation of anti whatever on aven.

And lastly, please, either engage in constructive discussion by addressing (any of) my points or do not address my posts at all. It is a waste of time like this. Thank you.

[Tanwen]

Please re-read Cashew's original post.

[Eddie7]

There is the time diffence thing - posts can be made while the mod is at school/work/asleep/having a social life. Plus they are not omnipotent beings. They may consider that a post contravenes the TOS, but needs to discuss whether others also see the statement in the same way. On a message board we lose the intonation of speech that indicates sarcasm. And whatever is decided you can bet someone on the board will disagree and start yelling 'censorship'

Of course, and I'll probably be first among them!

Obviously people have other things to be doing. But there is no reason that everything can't have been read within say 24 hours of posting. If any post is up after that amount of time, it becomes a pretty clear signal that the content was acceptable.

I just find the whole "we can't read everything" reasoning slightly flawed (there are 22 of you and only ~1000 posts/day!). There is no reason for content to remain on the site if it violates the TOS, moreso if admins are actually aware of such posts.

[The Evil Cashew]

It will only be up for like a week or so. Its to get a point across.

besides, work is for work. not for avening.

And one more thing, would you guys stop the anti-antisexual witch-hunt/bashing already! No they are not elitists, they are not racists, they are not whatever other PERSONAL INSULTS and DISCRIMINATORY COMMENTS you guys have flung on them – they are (mostly) decent people. In fact, I’ve never seen any of you engage with an anti-sexual and manage to actually prove any of your claims of elitism.

Did we say they were bad poeple? No. please dont take OUR words out of context! This isnt a witch hunt reptilelover. Comments against RELIGIONS, SEXES and SEXUALS AND OTHERS have been said on the board. Maybe you dont notice it but when we get people pm'ing us about problems, we know about them, or see them ourselves. this isnt some blame game we're tyring to play. That up there is a friendly reminder to be nice.

Maybe next time we should just start temp banning poeple? No wait, we cant do that. Someone will complain about that too. Make an annoucement somewhere else? No.. cant do that... cuz then someone will complain that they didnt see it or that they didnt know. Oh i know... we'll Warn people like Eddie mentioned... WAIT! NO! we CANT do that either.... Someone complained about that already! Wow... as admods... what CAN we do? This is how we chose to handle the situation. If this makes you unhappy, then I'm sorry, but this is how we voted to take care of the problem.

What the problem is that poeple make sweeping generalisations about the aformentioned categories (race, age, sex ect) that are rude. and then we get pms and have to deal with the situation. This is just a REMINDER. As stated above, it will only be up for a short time.

Sorry we can't please everyone.

EDIT:

One example was a comment made about Mormons which was then removed because someone found it offensive.

[Tanwen]

Reptile lover, ok no further comment other than to say no further comment.

Eddie, warnings are not issued lightly and only after discussion with the other admods. Banning requires a great deal of soul searching (other than those which are obviously spam/trolls, even then it's raised with other mods, just in case we've misread something.)

[reptilelover]

Cashew, examples of:

1)some quotes, who said these “discriminatory comments” towards sexuals/other groups

2) Why do you think they are discriminatory

3) don’t take people’s words out of context

4) the percentage of threads that actually have these “discriminatory comments” in them. Yeah, I want a list because I don’t see this infestation of anti whatever on aven.

Please!

I am not taking anything you've said out of context so far, as you haven't backed your claims with anything, I am FORCED to conclude what I did. If you want to prove me I've had a bad first impression, please give some examples! (if you don't want to bother that's also ok with reptilelover, I just felt the need to say my piece) ;)

[Eddie7]

Maybe next time we should just start temp banning poeple? No wait, we cant do that. Someone will complain about that too. Make an annoucement somewhere else? No.. cant do that... cuz then someone will complain that they didnt see it or that they didnt know. Oh i know... we'll Warn people like Eddie mentioned... WAIT! NO! we CANT do that either.... Someone complained about that already! Wow... as admods... what CAN we do? This is how we chose to handle the situation. If this makes you unhappy, then I'm sorry, but this is how we voted to take care of the problem.

It's your site to do as you please. People will obviously chime in with their opinions. Whether or not the admods take note or adapt is of course an internal matter.

Just adapt a clear cut moderation policy (that is visible to both admods and users) and stick to it. Use warnings, bannings or whatever other fun stuff you feel is necessary. That site policy is seemingly being allowed to be dictated by complaining users (of which I'll gladly count myself) is nuts.

EDIT:

One example was a comment made about Mormons which was then removed because someone found it offensive.

Oh yes, how we all remember that fine incident in the history of the site.

[Coleslaw]

Nothing on AVEN has changed yet. It's a reminder. Please, chill out, and if this is still making you angry in 24 hours, I will personally indulge your request and find you posts that would normally break the TOS and yet we have let slide.

Excellent! The problem with that though is that it establishes one of two scenarios:

1. Admods aren't doing their jobs properly.

2. The content was allowed to "slide" intentionally, undermining any additional steps such as the slogan at the top.

(Yeah yeah, sorry for being "that guy" again..)

I'm actually not even going to bother responding to this is full. I'm not an Admod, so I feel I can say this to you as a fellow member as something I have noticed about you and something that bothers me: you complain about everything and anything the Admods do. If they don't take action, you complain. If they do take action, you complain. It's absolutely ridiculous. Let them do their jobs! Let them try and make changes to their behaviours and to those of the members without having to doll out official warnings. They're doing something that I find to be mature, in a way that encourages both the members of the site and the Admods to change their behaviours. Let them.

I'm bowing out of this discussion till tomorrow, at which point hopefully this thread will cool down and my own emotions will be in check.

[Tanwen]

Eddie, it is not our site. It belongs to all the members and hard as we try we cannot please everyone - sometimes it seems we can't please anyone.

[Eddie7]

I'm actually not even going to bother responding to this is full. I'm not an Admod, so I feel I can say this to you as a fellow member as something I have noticed about you and something that bothers me: you complain about everything and anything the Admods do.If they don't take action, you complain. If they do take action, you complain. It's absolutely ridiculous. Let them do their jobs!

Fair enough. That's a reasonable enough observation given I don't tend to spend a lot of time posting how super I think the admods are doing. Like most things, I tend to post when I have an issue or concern. The implication, by and large, should at all other times I have no problem with what they are doing. If that makes me someone who moans about everything, so be it.

To clarify where I stand, I'm firmly in the "take no action" camp. I don't believe this site needs the level of moderation that many here believe it does. All comments should be fair game short of pure abuse and spam.

That said, I am able to disconnect myself from that opinion to take part in a discussion. On this thread, we're talking about (presumably) how to make people be all nice to each other. All I've really said on this thread is that if the admods want the TOS to be enforced more strongly, that should be done rather than silly measures like the banner above. Of course I'd rather no action (reconciling with my overall position), but am arguing from a point of view that the admods want to do something.

Hopefully that clears things up.

Let them try and make changes to their behaviours and to those of the members without having to doll out official warnings. They're doing something that I find to be mature, in a way that encourages both the members of the site and the Admods to change their behaviours. Let them.

Again, fair enough. But I ask again: What is wrong with a sticky across all boards to serve much the same purpose? The currently method is just intrusive for the majority that it will never apply to.

I'm bowing out of this discussion till tomorrow, at which point hopefully this thread will cool down and my own emotions will be in check.

Why is it that all of these discussions seem to result in half of the participants becoming emotive over such things? Is it not possible for people to rationally disagree?

Eddie, it is not our site. It belongs to all the members and hard as we try we cannot please everyone - sometimes it seems we can't please anyone.

And I sympathise, I really do. But any admod action is going to come under scrutiny from the users of the site, for better or worse.

[The Evil Cashew]

Actually its not my site. I was elected to help take care of it and see to that its a nice place and what have you.

I agree we need to have a policy and stick to it. However somewhere down the line... (I'm not sure where) Aven has got this idea in its head... that the poeple rule... so basically generally the admod team cant make any huge decisions without asking EVERYONE. So tell me Eddie.... How can i run it the way i please if every time i want to do something i have to ask the *insert# of active users* frequent the board on a regular basis?

We had to get everyones opinion for the software, the frontpage, colour schemes, you name it.. its prolly been voted on at some point. Though i appreciate your concern on making everything fair and what not. But no matter what we do.... its a loosing situation for us. That said, again i apologize if your going to have limited access for while th banners are up.... but this is what we chose.. and we discussed it for awhile before actually acting.

Reptile:

I undertand you want examples, please see my edit for the one i can remember offhand. There are many comments that are just imbedded in posts and i dont personally recall where i have seen EVERY SINGLE one. I'll try to dig up some for you. (as i am sure cole will too as she mentionned) or even other admods as they log in. However at this moment I cannot. Forgive me for the delay.

EDIT: Eddie the reason a stickie wont work because it has been proven to us over and over that poeple dont necessarily read the stickies. Thats why we opted for this measure.

[Eddie7]

I agree we need to have a policy and stick to it. However somewhere down the line... (I'm not sure where) Aven has got this idea in its head... that the poeple rule... so basically generally the admod team cant make any huge decisions without asking EVERYONE. So tell me Eddie.... How can i run it the way i please if every time i want to do something i have to ask the *insert# of active users* frequent the board on a regular basis?

Honestly, you can't. There is no workable system where every member will be satisfied by any action you do or do not take. Personally, despite my blatherings on these threads, you (the admods) shouldn't be consulting us all on everything. Sure, canvas for opinion and the such, but the fact every action seeming has to be decided by committee or in such a way that never risks offending anyone inevitably leads to the most tepid action most times, not necessarily the right one.

So if you're seriously asking me how to get things done with the board, the answer is relatively simple. Stop asking people like me.

All of which I realise is counterproductive to my persistent complaining. That's the joy of a message board though. Everyone gets their say, even if it doesn't count for anything.

EDIT: Eddie the reason a stickie wont work because it has been proven to us over and over that poeple dont necessarily read the stickies. Thats why we opted for this measure.

Fair enough, but people shouldn't really complain if they fall foul of the rules after not reading them then.

[Olivier]

No-one is being penalised; we are reminded that different orientations/beliefs come here. Some asexuals are in a relationship with sexuals; so how does it help them if the sexual partner logs on to see antisexual comments...threads where statements that all sexuals are stupid, talking to sexuals is like talking to a 6' penis??? We have some members whose religion matters a great deal to them yet their beliefs are trivialised, male, female, intersexed and transgendered, vegetarian, meat eaters, those who like to wear fur - all at some time have been on the receiving end of adverse comments. A little consideration and co-operation goes a long way.

I agree with the sentiment, but I've got to say I hate the "reminder".

I'm a sexual partner, and you know what? The antisexualism here doesn't bother me at all. Firstly, it's really rare for it to be expressed in a generalised or offensive way, and calm response usually results in a retraction of the generalisation, if not the sentiment. I actually enjoyed the "6' penis" thread, as I have enjoyed threads where atheism has been belittled in an ignorant fashion. If someone expresses themselves ignorantly, I don't get personally offended (I don't even know these people, and they don't know me, and I certainly don't have the energy to waste on getting het up every time someone on the internet behaves like a tosser) but it does change my opinion of the poster for the worse. So be it. I'm sure some people think I'm an arrogant shit for holding my beliefs strongly - they certainly do in real life - and I'm fine with that.

The reminder just seems so condescending. Either people are clearly breaching the TOS, in which case warn them regardless of whether they complain, or they're not, in which case we're all good. The tone of AVEN pre-reminder is in my experience already incredibly inclusive and rational and calm, so I think that the reminder is a bit over the top, as is a desire to avoid "adverse comments". That just sounds like we shouldn't express a judgement on anything. How dull (and dishonest).