Gender

[Elliott Ford]

"This might be TMI, but when is the point where one person wants to be an ftm transsexual and the other just wants to have just a male identity? In my experience, I don't even want a male name, just to wear male clothes and I don't object to more neutral female clothes or spartan feminine ones. The only thing I do wish that it was easier to date men and not have them think I'm an effeminate male, an ftm transexual or simply a freak." Cazz333

the point where someone becomes a transexual is the point where they KNOW what sex they should be. i don't. i know i'm happier living as me, and me seems to be a lot more male than female. but i don't feel too alienated by my body. Nobody's going to see me naked who doesn't know that i'm not a woman and isn't capable of appreciating me without thinking that i am. so i don't see the point of having surgery (this a purely personal choice, i'm not saying that no one should have gender reassignment surgery, just that i don't want it) as i'm not unhappy with having a female body.

[Beardless]

One of my current observations is that questioning your gender is contagious. I know that I started thinking about what gender I was because others had come to conclusions about themselves, and I've passed this on to at least one other. I suspect that there are many people living as their birth sex that simply haven't considered that they may lie outside the boundary. When I wanted to know what having a gender felt like, I asked someone whose body did not match their mind, because if they'd come to that decision they must have noticed something. I didn't want to ask a cis-gendered person because I was unsure whether they'd thought or just fallen into the default. I suppose it's like me assuming I would be straight when I grew up.

[Adahn]

It does strike me there's a difference between people who've thought about gender and those who haven't, even if the conclusion they come to is that they are the same gender as their body. That's probably why it's contagious, cause most people are automatically in the unquestioning mind set that finds it alien that people could think like transpeople do until someone makes them think

[AVENCakes]

Anyone else experience the ol' "it's just a tomboy phase" line?

I wish I'd gotten that, it's direct and obvious and you know what you're facing. Mom was subtler. She'd buy me clothes that, in my opinion, only sluts would wear (no, really, the person ringing one up was shocked because it was the sort of clothes that most parents go "you aren't leaving the house in that!" to). She'd comment on how I'd walk/stand like a boy, things like that. Occasionally she'd complain about how my babydoll tshirts and figure-hugging jeans were "boy clothes". It was all subtle so it managed to get into my subconscious that she didn't approve without it being as obvious, so without even realizing it I'd feel like I was wrong for wanting to wear boys clothes. Now I've got a closet full of clothes that I can't wear without wanting to cry because I finally stopped listening to her and got the clothes I actually want.

This might be TMI, but when is the point where one person wants to be an ftm transsexual and the other just wants to have just a male identity? In my experience, I don't even want a male name, just to wear male clothes and I don't object to more neutral female clothes or spartan feminine ones.

I've heard people say the difference between transgendered and transsexual is that transsexuals want to get surgery and all that to get the body they want. Then I've seen people who say transsexual means you still fit within the binary (male/female), so even if you're a neutrois who gets surgery to have a gender-neutral body you're still transgendered not transsexual. Others would argue that anyone who wants to dress/pass/be considered male, no matter what they want to do in terms of hormones and surgery is FtM. I think it's pretty much how the person wants to identify, really. There's a lot of arguments.

If you just want to wear more masculine clothes, not actually be a guy, it doesn't even mean you're transgendered. Do you feel you're a girl, you just prefer that style? Some people do, I don't think it means you aren't cisgendered just because you don't want to wear frilly pink dresses all the time. Some girls are masculine, some guys are feminine, and some people have a hard time accepting that so react badly.

One of my current observations is that questioning your gender is contagious. I know that I started thinking about what gender I was because others had come to conclusions about themselves, and I've passed this on to at least one other.

It wouldn't surprise me. Especially if they don't feel their gender strongly enough as to want to transition, most people probably wouldn't think about it until they meet someone that makes them. I've also heard it suggested that multiplicity (more than one person in a body) can be "contagious" because if you realize that it's possible to be that without being a total loon, you're more likely to be willing to think of yourself in those terms and realize that what you never really thought about as separate are actually different people, or are less likely to rebel against it when others start to form.

[Elliott Ford]

This might be TMI, but when is the point where one person wants to be an ftm transsexual and the other just wants to have just a male identity? In my experience, I don't even want a male name, just to wear male clothes and I don't object to more neutral female clothes or spartan feminine ones.

I've heard people say the difference between transgendered and transsexual is that transsexuals want to get surgery and all that to get the body they want. Then I've seen people who say transsexual means you still fit within the binary (male/female), so even if you're a neutrois who gets surgery to have a gender-neutral body you're still transgendered not transsexual. Others would argue that anyone who wants to dress/pass/be considered male, no matter what they want to do in terms of hormones and surgery is FtM. I think it's pretty much how the person wants to identify, really. There's a lot of arguments.

If you just want to wear more masculine clothes, not actually be a guy, it doesn't even mean you're transgendered. Do you feel you're a girl, you just prefer that style? Some people do, I don't think it means you aren't cisgendered just because you don't want to wear frilly pink dresses all the time. Some girls are masculine, some guys are feminine, and some people have a hard time accepting that so react badly.

You've got it pretty much right RDraconis. I'm edging towards actually "counting" as FtM because i prefer to live as though i am a man. I just tend not to identify as one because i don't feel *completely* male. i'm also painfully aware that i have previously felt very female. eventhough i only felt like a woman for a short time, it makes me wary that i could at some point no longer feel as male as i do now. Hence i don't intend to do anything that could actually change my body in case i later wish to be female (Possible TMI i'm not even talking about hormones/surgery here, just about flattening my chest. i don't like the fact that they're there but i won't do anything that could drastically change the shape). So, I'm transgendered in virtue of my being uncertain. The usually definition would have a transexual as someone with a binary gender and a trasgendered person with a nonbinary gender but this isn't *quite* accurate. It's close enough though.

Lots of people crossdress, for all sorts of reasons. but some of us aren't trying to dress up as something we're not, we're trying to appear as what we are.

[veralidaine]

People are people

That's almost exactly how I feel. The only time I've ever acknowledged a difference between male and female is when I admit that I generally get along better with males. Other than that, treat them the exact same.

[Cazz333]

This might be TMI, but when is the point where one person wants to be an ftm transsexual and the other just wants to have just a male identity? In my experience, I don't even want a male name, just to wear male clothes and I don't object to more neutral female clothes or spartan feminine ones.

I've heard people say the difference between transgendered and transsexual is that transsexuals want to get surgery and all that to get the body they want. Then I've seen people who say transsexual means you still fit within the binary (male/female), so even if you're a neutrois who gets surgery to have a gender-neutral body you're still transgendered not transsexual. Others would argue that anyone who wants to dress/pass/be considered male, no matter what they want to do in terms of hormones and surgery is FtM. I think it's pretty much how the person wants to identify, really. There's a lot of arguments.

If you just want to wear more masculine clothes, not actually be a guy, it doesn't even mean you're transgendered. Do you feel you're a girl, you just prefer that style? Some people do, I don't think it means you aren't cisgendered just because you don't want to wear frilly pink dresses all the time. Some girls are masculine, some guys are feminine, and some people have a hard time accepting that so react badly.

You've got it pretty much right RDraconis. I'm edging towards actually "counting" as FtM because i prefer to live as though i am a man. I just tend not to identify as one because i don't feel *completely* male. i'm also painfully aware that i have previously felt very female. eventhough i only felt like a woman for a short time, it makes me wary that i could at some point no longer feel as male as i do now. Hence i don't intend to do anything that could actually change my body in case i later wish to be female (Possible TMI i'm not even talking about hormones/surgery here, just about flattening my chest. i don't like the fact that they're there but i won't do anything that could drastically change the shape). So, I'm transgendered in virtue of my being uncertain. The usually definition would have a transexual as someone with a binary gender and a trasgendered person with a nonbinary gender but this isn't *quite* accurate. It's close enough though.

Lots of people crossdress, for all sorts of reasons. but some of us aren't trying to dress up as something we're not, we're trying to appear as what we are.

I do tend to identify with men as a man so to speak at some point in my life. I also identify with people as a woman as well so I'm both really. You could say bigendered but I sometimes wish I had both female and male biological bits in one body. I know that's impossible so I'll stick with what I've got.

I suppose I wear male clothes and keep my female body because I want to say I'm a man and woman in one and I don't really care about what's masculine and feminine. Some of it could be sensory issues in that male clothes tend to be heavier than female clothes and they're more comfortable as a result.

[Snap-Dragon]

Mhmm, the french philosophy Judith Miller articulates the fact that gender is merely a social construct we are conditioned to follow, changing to suit social context. In today's context there is much more fluidity and ambiguity surrounding sexuality, so much fluidity that the rigid male/female categories have been strewn with alternatives.

It might seem a little backwards, but in the end I feel like gender should be a referral to someones biological attributes, which then you can pair with traits such as "masculine" and "feminine". With the exception to Trans-gender, because that's primarily when someone feels their biological bits "a false of incompletely description of themselves".

Yeah, and I think that is indeed how most people use the terms he/she and him/her. Frankly, people have their own lives and interests to worry about -- no one gives a rat's tail what gender you think you are, or what particular mix of stereotypically "masculine" or "feminine" traits you have. When people call someone "he", they're referring to the fact that he's biologically male. I admit, I always have to suppress the urge to roll my eyes when someone butchers the English language by trying to invent new "gender-neutral" pronouns. It's completely unnecessary, 'cause we don't have gender pronouns to begin with. We have sex pronouns. If we were using gender pronouns... I mean, jeez, we'd need a different one for every single person on the planet. No one has the same mix of masculine or feminine traits.

Sorry. Mini-rant over. :(

I guess I tend to lean more toward the idea that "gender" is primarily (though not completely) a social construct, myself. I mean, no matter what trait someone identifies as "masculine" or "feminine", there'll be some other society out there that defines it the opposite way. While there might be slight differences between males and females overall, in an average sense, when you get down to the individual level, people are just... individual.

[please delete this account]

People are people

Agree.

I never thought gender was really... applicable to me (or others). I always thought of gender as some far off and abstract blob of a concept, everyone seems to think it's something different. I'll call a person by whatever name/pronoun they ask me to and it doesn't bother me, though even when growing up i thought and considered that pronouns refered to sex - apparantly not :P (hence now my resorting to singluar neutral 'they')

So: what is the difference between 'male' behaviour' and 'female' behaviour? why are they different, to what degree is there a biological role which results in these behaviours (hormone differences for example) ? is there a difference between male/female and masculine/femanine?

On one level i can understand everything transgendered people say, yet on another i really can't as i just don't see how it's relevant. (sorry if that sounded harsh, it's not meant to i just can't phrase it any other way)

[Raef]

I wish I'd gotten that, it's direct and obvious and you know what you're facing. Mom was subtler.

Did you not read the part about having it beaten into me?

Mine didn't try to dress me like an 8-year old 'slut' but she did force me to wear skirts to school for 4 years. At primary school, it wasn't so bad because there was no uniform so I'd take my jeans in with me and put them on. Plus, even on days when she searched my bag and I didn't make it out with the jeans, my friends were cool enough to still let me play football etc in a skirt. It became harder at secondary school where, even though I'd only just turned 11, people were disgusted that I was wearing a skirt but not shaving my legs. I was being bullied for a number of things, and the hairy legs turned into a beacon, attracting more people to be aggressive without provocation.

There's a lot on this thread to take in, and the only thing I can think to add is that, although gender may not seem to be a big deal once you're an adult, as you can choose to be and act however you want, it's a different story when you're a kid and have a parent who doesn't accept you for who you are/are trying to be. Parents, particularly those with an abusive agenda, have a lot of control over their kids when they're a young age. And - since childhood affects the adult you become - it can feck your mind up so that gender seems a bigger deal than it perhaps is.

Much to think about. Gonna go away and think about it; hopefully come back with some reasoned reflections.

*toasts interesting thread*

[Cazz333]

Have some . At least now you can start to build your own life now that you're away from them.

[Des]

Why do I have to have a gender? Why do I have to have a sexual orientation? Why do I have to be a human being? Anything I can do to change to a different species? I'd much rather be something else... though I'm not sure what.

[metalgirl2045]

It does strike me there's a difference between people who've thought about gender and those who haven't, even if the conclusion they come to is that they are the same gender as their body. That's probably why it's contagious, cause most people are automatically in the unquestioning mind set that finds it alien that people could think like transpeople do until someone makes them think

Yes, questioning gender is definitely a good thing. While I believe there are real differences in the AVERAGE behaviour between men and women, I think it's best to live your life as if there aren't. Because if you think about it and reject gender you'll only be influenced by what you are genuinely like (even if it is strongly one gender or the other) rather than your biological sex's stereotype. People who mindlessly and obsessively stick to their gender stereotype come across as much more fake than the strongly cisgendered but have thought it through.

I've been wearing mens army combats, army boots, unisex hoody and bright pink nail polish all day. That's actually because I don't own any nail varnish remover and was in very female mode last night rather than a statemnt on androgyny!

[AVENCakes]

You could say bigendered but I sometimes wish I had both female and male biological bits in one body. I know that's impossible so I'll stick with what I've got.

Both in what sense? Like, genitalia? Because (warning, TMI) testosterone can increase the size of the clitoris enough that it can, in some guys, function like that and you can get surgery to make it seem more so (metoidioplasty, phalloplasty is not there yet). You'd have to be willing to accept the permanent effects of T, as you could always stop it after you get the, er, length you want and all the impermanent effects would stop. Some of the permanent effects are deeper voice, facial hair, and more masculine face. more info on T.

So, yeah, not technically possible but also not totally impossible if you actually wanted to.

Yeah, and I think that is indeed how most people use the terms he/she and him/her. Frankly, people have their own lives and interests to worry about -- no one gives a rat's tail what gender you think you are, or what particular mix of stereotypically "masculine" or "feminine" traits you have. When people call someone "he", they're referring to the fact that he's biologically male. I admit, I always have to suppress the urge to roll my eyes when someone butchers the English language by trying to invent new "gender-neutral" pronouns. It's completely unnecessary, 'cause we don't have gender pronouns to begin with. We have sex pronouns. If we were using gender pronouns... I mean, jeez, we'd need a different one for every single person on the planet. No one has the same mix of masculine or feminine traits.

It's not just a mix of traits. It is about whether you feel you are male or female or other. Yes, plenty of genderqueer have the most bizarre pronouns and can want to be called anything from it to they to co, but when it comes to the binary- "he" means you are male. It means you can hear it without dieing a little inside. It doesn't mean you've got a dick or an XY chromsome or whatever the idiots who ignore intersexed think makes someone a boy or a girl. It means you are a male, regardless of what the morons who signed your birth certificate decided you are, and suggesting that such an attitude of "gender doesn't matter" is even a little bit tolerable to people who go through extreme suffering just to try and be who they are is just ridiculous.

I accept that not everyone sees gender as a big deal, but don't you dare suggest that my body defines who I am to the degree that I shouldn't care what people call me when it can do that much damage. Not only that, but if I want to dress like a woman and still be called a guy- you damn well better be willing to, because this has nothing to do with traits or how masculine or feminine someone thinks you are, it's about who you are and how you have a right to be treated.

[Elliott Ford]

Yeah, and I think that is indeed how most people use the terms he/she and him/her. Frankly, people have their own lives and interests to worry about -- no one gives a rat's tail what gender you think you are, or what particular mix of stereotypically "masculine" or "feminine" traits you have. When people call someone "he", they're referring to the fact that he's biologically male. I admit, I always have to suppress the urge to roll my eyes when someone butchers the English language by trying to invent new "gender-neutral" pronouns. It's completely unnecessary, 'cause we don't have gender pronouns to begin with. We have sex pronouns.

It's not just a mix of traits. It is about whether you feel you are male or female or other. Yes, plenty of genderqueer have the most bizarre pronouns and can want to be called anything from it to they to co, but when it comes to the binary- "he" means you are male. It means you can hear it without dieing a little inside. It doesn't mean you've got a dick or an XY chromsome or whatever the idiots who ignore intersexed think makes someone a boy or a girl. It means you are a male, regardless of what the morons who signed your birth certificate decided you are, and suggesting that such an attitude of "gender doesn't matter" is even a little bit tolerable to people who go through extreme suffering just to try and be who they are is just ridiculous.

I accept that not everyone sees gender as a big deal, but don't you dare suggest that my body defines who I am to the degree that I shouldn't care what people call me when it can do that much damage. Not only that, but if I want to dress like a woman and still be called a guy- you damn well better be willing to, because this has nothing to do with traits or how masculine or feminine someone thinks you are, it's about who you are and how you have a right to be treated.

*hugs RDraconis*

Firstly, i'd like to make clear that i fully understand Snap-Dragon's point. Most people do assume that they are sex pronouns and they refer to biological differences. i don't consider them to be sex pronouns but for the moment presume that they are and then ask yourself - why? WHY is it so important to know what kind of body people have under their clothes? It actually makes MORE sense to use them to denote gender as a person's gender will affect how they behave and how they wish to be treated. Which is surely more important and more useful to understand than just what kind of body they have as, most of the time, this is irrelevant and, frankly, personal.

And RDraconis is right, when people insist on labelling me with a gender i don't feel able to live inside, it HURTS. Pronouns are only little words but they have much much bigger connotations and meanings attached. Someone who insists on referring to me as female is insisting, however indirectly, that i should be a different way, that i should act and think and feel like a woman. Referring to me as female is like telling me that i am doing EVERYTHING wrong. That's why it hurts.

i understand that for many people it isn't that big a deal and i wish it wasn't a big deal for me. But if asking people to call me "he" instead of "she" means i don't feel permenantly inadequate then it has to be done. Whether the pronouns are meant to denote physical sex or not.

[AVENCakes]

i don't consider them to be sex pronouns but for the moment presume that they are and then ask yourself - why? WHY is it so important to know what kind of body people have under their clothes? It actually makes MORE sense to use them to denote gender as a person's gender will affect how they behave and how they wish to be treated. Which is surely more important and more useful to understand than just what kind of body they have as, most of the time, this is irrelevant and, frankly, personal.

I can understand for most people it is, since most are cisgendered, but I always thought it refers to how someone looks regardless of they're biological sex and it confuses me when someone acts as though they'd automatically know it of anyone, no matter how well they passed. If someone looks completely like a woman, maybe passes better than some cisgirls, finished transition so all they're paperwork says they're female, but they were born male would you really be able to tell they were and call them "he"? Better yet, how could you live with yourself doing that when revealing her as transsexual could put the girl in danger of being killed or seriously injured in some places? And if it does refer to that, why do people who are androgynous and dress the part cause such a stir and get a rather insulting-toned "it" from some when you can just go by the biological sex that they'd likely refuse to reveal?

[Cazz333]

You could say bigendered but I sometimes wish I had both female and male biological bits in one body. I know that's impossible so I'll stick with what I've got.

Both in what sense? Like, genitalia? Because (warning, TMI) testosterone can increase the size of the clitoris enough that it can, in some guys, function like that and you can get surgery to make it seem more so (metoidioplasty, phalloplasty is not there yet). You'd have to be willing to accept the permanent effects of T, as you could always stop it after you get the, er, length you want and all the impermanent effects would stop. Some of the permanent effects are deeper voice, facial hair, and more masculine face. more info on T.

So, yeah, not technically possible but also not totally impossible if you actually wanted to.

TMI:

It makes sense to have a large clittoris or a metoidioplasty but at the same time I like having my ovaries, cervix, vagina the whole lot. I just rather stupidly wished that I could have a penis like in between my clitoris and vagina. I suppose you could dismiss it as a random queasy thought.

End TMI:

Anyway, in a less obtuse sense, it does hint it that I often eel in terms of gender, neither here nor there. In a sense not quite agendered, not quite bigendered yet at the same time not quite androgynous.

[thecynicalromantic]

I think we should come up with a gender-neutral personal pronoun and use it for everybody. Because frankly, *I* don't give a rat's ass what sex OR gender anyone is.

[CalmWater]

Everything that's ever been described to me as 'gender' seems to be to do with social conduct, which, by its very definition is a result of society.. There's nothing that I can find to justify a split in gender, or the existence of the term itself. It's as irrelevant to me as 'race' is.. Just some construct enforced by historical prejudices, which themselves are too inconsistent and prone to flux to be considered a true justification for anything.

I can definitely relate. Personally, I believe that gender roles and biases are much looser than many people think. I'm female, for example, but there are some things that a lot of females are "expected" to do, that I just can't. I'm horrible at cleaning and cooking, for example. No getting aroung that. And there are some things that are typically viewed as "masculine" that I'm pretty good at. Soccer and public speaking for some examples. My fashion style preferences are...pretty much androdgynous. I can't stand wearing skirts and dresses. I have (sort've) hairy legs and I don't really...care.

I've never really cared. So, I'm a girl. What does it matter? In my opinion, these "gender differences" are most likely conditioned into society by past traditions that cause humans to evolve in different ways...Since women were forbidden from war, for example, many women's muscles may not have evolved to handle war. That's my explanation for all this.

In short, society is definitely to blame for such accepted "gender differences". I always get angry when people say things like, "Well, guys are stronger than girls" and things like "Fashion's a 'girl thing'". It all bothers me. But, I believe that the first step to eliminating the strictness in these gender roles is to openly reject them. It may be scary and we may get laughed at. But, it's these gender roles that should be laughed at!

Best of luck understanding your sexual identity. To me, you sound perfectly all right the way you are: An intelligent and deep-thinking human being. :D Too good for gender!

for you!

I think we should come up with a gender-neutral personal pronoun and use it for everybody. Because frankly, *I* don't give a rat's ass what sex OR gender anyone is.

Me, neither. for you and for everyone, too!

-Coco.

[Amigakidd]

Now, I think we are confusing the issue that Marvin originally meant. Marvin says that gender doesn't matter like race doesn't matter. You can't say that there aren't different races, and that people don't identify as different races, but that shouldn't affect anyone's dealing with them. Same with gender. But why bother identifying as something if it doesn't matter?

Because it does matter. Anyone who feels each incorrect pronoun as a sharp pain or sank into despair that no one would ever see them as what they are knows this. You don't choose to, it just happens. And minorities do identify witht heir race, if I understand correctly. A large part of your identity can come from being from a certain location or your ancestors and heritage, it's not just "oh, you're skin is this shade so you identify as X" it's about where you came from

As far a gender roles are concerned. To me, gender is blurred. I identify as androgynous.

My hairstyle can sometimes be girly (short bob layered cut) or sometimes I can go for the guy haircut (fade, sideburns). I can shop at the Gap, H&M, and other clothing venues and get away with buying women's jeans, gawd they just fit me right., the nice skinny tight ones.

I can wear girly vcut tees in public and get away with it. I'm into the girly punk modern look.

As a gender male, I cannot get away with wearing a skirt and pointed heels. I love very cutesy stuff like trinkets and Japanese cute toy dolls.

As for guy things, I play alot of hardcore video games, not into the weakling casual Wii stuff.

I like my video games to be Sony Playstation brand, not a Microsoft boy.

Lots of blood and violence. The sex in video games is pointless to me.

Favorites are RPGs and FPS. I also like to watch violent flicks like SAW. I'm not into sports,

but I did watch the superbowl for the advertising. I like the rocker guy look as well - A stereotype guy who plays rockband. I sometimes wear baggy skater pants and large boys tees when it suits me. Sometimes a tie and a clean pink shirt especially at work is very comfy.

Does this make me gender confused or do I own two gender spirits?

To me transgenderism isn't for me. That's just too painful process.

[Astryda]

People are people, what more is there to say on the matter? It's just a relic of socialisation. I know that before school and the whole 'boys/girls [delete as applicable] are icky' thing started I never so much as considered the gender of people I was around (is this a general thing with children though?), and I have vivid memories of the torment I got for attending school in 'girls shoes' for a few days. I just thought they were comfortable. I tried feigning conformity from then on, and put up with all the stereotypes, but I still don't see what those stereotypes have to do with reality.

Everything that's ever been described to me as 'gender' seems to be to do with social conduct, which, by its very definition is a result of society.. There's nothing that I can find to justify a split in gender, or the existence of the term itself. It's as irrelevant to me as 'race' is.. Just some construct enforced by historical prejudices, which themselves are too inconsistent and prone to flux to be considered a true justification for anything.

I agree with You (except the thing girly shoes were comfortable, they were horrible to me!).

You know, the gender (or, I would rather say- sex) was a very important thing because according to it, people set up the roles they had in the society and it stopped not so many years ago (that's why the stereotype "woman- take care of children, man- bring food/gain money" is still "alive" in the society).

And again, we shouldn't be attached to labels more than to our feelings and personalities.

[AVENCakes]

TMI:

It makes sense to have a large clittoris or a metoidioplasty but at the same time I like having my ovaries, cervix, vagina the whole lot. I just rather stupidly wished that I could have a penis like in between my clitoris and vagina. I suppose you could dismiss it as a random queasy thought.

Well, I don't think the metoidioplasty requires the area to be closed up, so if you really wanted to you could find a way to. Not that you have to, just so you know if you ever get to thinking that you really would like to see what you can do about getting it that way.

I think we should come up with a gender-neutral personal pronoun and use it for everybody. Because frankly, *I* don't give a rat's ass what sex OR gender anyone is.

That's lovely, but I'm not a "they". I prefer it to "she", but I'm a "he" and would much prefer being referred to and treated as such. It wouldn't work for everyone, is the problem. And it's fine if you don't care, I don't care if anyone's gay or straight or pan or whatever and don't get why they have to tell me, but you could still respect that they are.

[Snap-Dragon]

It's not just a mix of traits. It is about whether you feel you are male or female or other. Yes, plenty of genderqueer have the most bizarre pronouns and can want to be called anything from it to they to co, but when it comes to the binary- "he" means you are male.

Biologically male. "He" means you are biologically male. And being biologically male doesn't necessarily mean a person will be masculine, or, for that matter, attracted to women. Other than the fact that a majority of men will be more masculine than feminine, and that a majority will be heterosexual, I don't see how the two terms equate. Calling a man "he" doesn't demand that he act or believe in certain things, any more than it demands that he be attracted to women. It's merely an acknowledgment that he's biologically male.

It means you are a male, regardless of what the morons who signed your birth certificate decided you are, and suggesting that such an attitude of "gender doesn't matter" is even a little bit tolerable to people who go through extreme suffering just to try and be who they are is just ridiculous.

I accept that not everyone sees gender as a big deal, but don't you dare suggest that my body defines who I am to the degree that I shouldn't care what people call me when it can do that much damage.

But why? I guess that's what I don't understand. What is it, exactly, that does so much damage? Just for explanatory purposes, what's your sex (not your gender!), and why does it bother you to be called by that? The thing is, I can't think of a single "gender" trait that's not just societal, or stereotype. Other than things like men tending to be taller and physically stronger, but I feel it would be a bit shallow to want to be the opposite sex just for their body...

Most people do assume that they are sex pronouns and they refer to biological differences. i don't consider them to be sex pronouns but for the moment presume that they are and then ask yourself - why? WHY is it so important to know what kind of body people have under their clothes? It actually makes MORE sense to use them to denote gender as a person's gender will affect how they behave and how they wish to be treated. Which is surely more important and more useful to understand than just what kind of body they have as, most of the time, this is irrelevant and, frankly, personal.

But it's even harder to tell someone's gender than it is their physical sex. And if we go by the whole idea of masculine and feminine as a sort of sliding scale, what that would mean is that everyone has their own gender. You can at least tell the difference between men and women by looking at them (well, mostly :P ), since there are physical differences. It wouldn't make sense to use he/she to refer to gender, because there's no more way to tell that about someone than there is to tell their sexual orientation by just a glance.

And I can sort of see the importance in distinguishing between men and women physically with different pronouns. A person's sex is going to affect things like sexual attraction, romantic interest, and the likes. It is still a relevant thing in interactions with other people.

[Lekzýs]

Just for explanatory purposes, what's your sex (not your gender!), and why does it bother you to be called by that?

As I said earlier, I'm in the situation of having spent most of my life referring to myself as [my sex] and never having a problem with it because I was completely unaware you could be something else, despite my dislike for almost all physical features characteristic of my sex and my wish not to have them.

Then I discovered agender and neutrois and, well, I can't go back to the old way of thinking because it's simply wrong now that the reasons for it - not knowing you could be anything else - don't exist. I suppose, in many ways, I could almost be seen as 'becoming' trans later in life, even though I have always been, just unaware of it. ...I know that sounds odd, but it is really hard to explain so I do hope someone can understand it...

But anyway, although I'll almost certainly never be anything other than [my sex], and almost everyone I meet will address me with it until told otherwise, it bothers me because, as I said, it's wrong. So much so it does sort of hurt (especially if I'm, like now, in a sort of phase when I absolutely do not want to have a sex); I suppose the best way to describe it might be as though someone's jabbing me with a needle every time it's mentioned - my mind is immediately, and kind of painfully, in a way, drawn to it. It stands out, oftentimes more so than any other word in, or the overall meaning of, a sentence.

So that, in some rambling form written at 4:13am when I'm tired, is why it bothers me. In short, it's wrong.

Out of curiosity, is someone were to constantly refer to you as male, what would your feelings be to it?

[AVENCakes]

Biologically male. "He" means you are biologically male. And being biologically male doesn't necessarily mean a person will be masculine, or, for that matter, attracted to women. Other than the fact that a majority of men will be more masculine than feminine, and that a majority will be heterosexual, I don't see how the two terms equate. Calling a man "he" doesn't demand that he act or believe in certain things, any more than it demands that he be attracted to women. It's merely an acknowledgment that he's biologically male.

This is not about demanding that men, be they transmen or cismen, act like "real men" should act. As I said- if someone wants to the the frilliest, froofiest, most feminine thing on the planet and still be called and treated as a man then you damn well better because that is their right.

But why? I guess that's what I don't understand. What is it, exactly, that does so much damage?

It's the same damage as walking up to an asexual and saying "You're sexual. You like sex, you just don't realize it. You are a silly little child who wants attention and goes around trying to be something you aren't. Obviously this isn't the case, because everyone likes sex and no one will ever do anything but try and tolerate, or at worse actively persecute and possibly try to kill you for being who you think you are. And you deserve it, because anyone who's stupid enouhg to suggest they might not like sex and deserves everything they get." And hearing it every time someone uses that pronoun. Hearing it from birth, before you even realize that something's different about you, and hearing it every single day even by people who think they're being friendly.

Someone who is transgendered is not their sex, and insisting upon calling them that is like saying you don't believe them, they will never be that and no oen will ever see them like it and the hell that is that body will never end.Transgendereds have been killed for being who they are. They walk into transition knowing that if they're unlucky their life can be taken from them because of this, and you really think it doesn't hurt to be called the wrong pronoun?

Just for explanatory purposes, what's your sex (not your gender!), and why does it bother you to be called by that?

Why, so you can insult me by ensuring to use it? Ignore the fact that the inability to pass made me completely hopeless and sends me into levels of depression that large quantities of anti-depressants don't even make a dent on fixing? It hurts. It hurts to be called that, and I refuse to tell you what I am when you are making it so obvious you can't seem to understand the suffering that a 3 letter pronoun can cause. I will not hand you a loaded gun immediately after you tell me you don't understand why it's such a big deal to shoot other people, and I'll thank you not to ask me to. Show me you deserve enough respect for me to trust you with that information, prove that it won't make any difference and you'll still treat me as I'd like to be treated and maybe, just maybe, I will consider it. But as it is you have done nothing to prove you have any right to that information and I will not tell you it only for you to use it to hurt me simply because you can't understand.

The thing is, I can't think of a single "gender" trait that's not just societal, or stereotype. Other than things like men tending to be taller and physically stronger, but I feel it would be a bit shallow to want to be the opposite sex just for their body...

Not only that, but it's impossible to make yourself taller. And it's not just their body, but wanting to be taller or having the body you should have been born with is hardly wrong. Some transwomen have periods even before hormones. They don't bleed, but they get all the other symptoms. Sometimes they'll get phantom limb syndrome so transmen will feel the penis that should be there and transwomen will feel their vagina, even before they start transitioning. Dysphoria is just that powerful.

I don't know hwo to explain it to you. You can complain all you want that it's shallow, but the fact is that the pain cuts deep.

But it's even harder to tell someone's gender than it is their physical sex. And if we go by the whole idea of masculine and feminine as a sort of sliding scale, what that would mean is that everyone has their own gender. You can at least tell the difference between men and women by looking at them (well, mostly :P ), since there are physical differences. It wouldn't make sense to use he/she to refer to gender, because there's no more way to tell that about someone than there is to tell their sexual orientation by just a glance.

1. Stop ignoring intersexed. Stop ignoring that there is a scale of sex as well. Some women are tall, men short. Some women are flat chested or extremely curvy, some people aren't intersexed but are born to look quite androgynous, others are so androgynous they don't have either parts.

Now, to transsexuals. Can you really look at a post-op transwoman and say she is a man? One who passes better than some cisgirls? What about people who are so androgynous that when they wakl into a room they actually get "What is it?" from people who insist upon fitting into the binary? Can you look at someone with a full beard, deep voice, male suit, and tell they have two X chromsomes? Why are you assuming that people are kind enough to fit into your idiotic little, close minded view of the world where people with a dick dress like men and people with a vagina dress like women and people with some combination or lack thereof don't exist.

Out of curiosity, is someone were to constantly refer to you as male, what would your feelings be to it?

It's different, though, for cisgendered. It still sucks and they still get pissed, btu they have the right parts. It's not a reminder of what they aren't, or that so much of the world thinks they're freaks or how much trouble they're going to have to go through to get the body they want, or that what trouble they've already gone to isn't working and maybe they don't know what to do and feel like nothing will ever work and they'll be stuck seen as that for their entire lives.

[thecynicalromantic]

QUOTE (RDraconis @ Feb 5 2009, 05:16 PM) *

It's not just a mix of traits. It is about whether you feel you are male or female or other. Yes, plenty of genderqueer have the most bizarre pronouns and can want to be called anything from it to they to co, but when it comes to the binary- "he" means you are male.

Biologically male. "He" means you are biologically male. And being biologically male doesn't necessarily mean a person will be masculine, or, for that matter, attracted to women. Other than the fact that a majority of men will be more masculine than feminine, and that a majority will be heterosexual, I don't see how the two terms equate. Calling a man "he" doesn't demand that he act or believe in certain things, any more than it demands that he be attracted to women. It's merely an acknowledgment that he's biologically male.

No, it doesn't. "He" means you're male. It's only a very recent notion that being biologically male and identifying as male are two different things, which means dithering over whether English has sex or gender pronouns is pointless--the pronouns were developed when people thought they were the same thing. But when it's being applied to people, most people would rather go for the one that seems right in their heads, rather than the one that the doctor would tell them matches what's in their pants.

NEITHER of these things is the same as being 'masculine.'

Trying to pinpoint what exactly is gender identity is difficult. It's NOT biological sex, necessarily, and it's also not gender role[/b]. It is a perception of oneself as having a certain gender. Trying to define it in an exact, 'scientific' manner is going to result in the same circular sorts of conversations that crop up every now and again about what constitutes a relationship, where the only real answer is the entirely circular one--"that people are in a relationship if they both think they're in a relationship"-- that leaves every ounce of logic in our brains feeling completely unsatisfied, screaming at us that's it's GOT to mean SOMETHING otherwise why would we have a word for it? And some people seem to have some sort of 'sense' of what's a relationship and what's not, like my first boyfriend, who broke up with me by saying 'This isn't a relationship anymore,' and some people don't, like me, who was like "Well it's not now since you just broke up with me..." and didn't see how he could have come to that conclusion before breaking up with me, unless maybe he'd gotten unstuck in time-space somehow.

Gender identity is the same sort of thing. It's a social construct, so it's not 'real' the same way that it's real that if you throw a rock up in the air it's going to come back down. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mean, language is a social construct, but we're still having a real argument with it, and if I started typing in Klingon you'd notice a difference. Race is a social construct, as many people point out, it being the most popular analogy, but now that we've constructed it--it bloody well exists! You can't say that just because race is a social construct, Barack Obama *isn't* the first black US President (or mulatto president, at any rate). What you *can* do is realize that it's not set in stone, it can evolve as people's thinking about it evolves, that it exists because we make it up. For example, I'm Irish. This means I'm white. It also means my Irish ancestors a hundred years ago *weren't* white. The Irish were not considered white people for a very long time. Does this mean I'm not *actually* white? Or does it mean that people a hundred years ago were wrong and my ancestors actually *were* white?

The answer is (a) neither and (b) who cares, I consider myself to be Irish and white, and that's my business and doesn't necessarily mean anything except itself. I have another friend who's of Irish descent and white and only considers himself to be white; he has no sense of himself as "Irish" and considers the Irish a 'them' rather than an 'us'.

Frankly, gender identity is about that circular. If you feel like you're male, then you're male--nobody else is going to know that *better* than you. If you feel like you're female, then you're female, and again, nobody else is going to know that better than you. If you feel neither, or both, then that's how you see yourself.

Now, people with a certain gender identity will often be perfectly happy to more or less go along with some aspects of society's corresponding 'gender role', but only if they feel like it. Sometimes they don't. It's not about being masculine or feminine or androgynous, these are societal assignments of traits associating them with certain genders, but they're not actually the same thing. And what is 'masculine' or 'feminine' or 'androgynous' and how strongly they are considered to be 'supposed to' be paralleled with being male or female is extremely fluid, evolving rapidly from place to place and time to time, and occasionally from class to class, race to race, or subculture to subculture within the same place and time. But the notions of being "male" and "female" are much more longstanding and pervasive. There are certain cultures with more than two accepted genders, but the majority of them, over the past several millennia, have had genders of "male" and "female"--not just biological sexes, but genders. "Masculine" and "feminine" are fashions. Gender is a myth.

And I don't mean that the way that most people use it when they denounce things as "myths" these days. It's not a lie. It's not 'false' and it doesn't 'not exist.' Gender is mythic--a "myth" the way people who study history and literature and anthropology and stuff use the word. The creation of myths is an extremely important and influential component of being human. They are powerful. And everyone has their own sense of how powerful a myth is for them, how they interpret it and how it applies to them. And you cannot say that someone's perspective on how a myth affects or relates to them is invalid because it is merely a perspective and is not scientifically testable, or because myths evolve. If something is perceived, it exists, at least in that perception. I know it sounds quite circular and academic, and possibly like sort of a cop-out. "Myth" is sort of the humanities equivalent of "It's got something to do with quantum." But it's still real enough to be important.

Personally, *I* feel like the myth of gender does a hell of a lot more harm than good, as it tends to lead to (not 'is') the creation of gender roles, which limit people's personal development. It might have begun as a useful way of dividing labor or something back in caveman days, but society doesn't need it now. If we can keep the myth of gender without having gender roles than I see no particular harm in it, I just don't really see how it's constructive either.

Err, that's my soapboxing for the day.

*clambers down*

[AVENCakes]

And I don't mean that the way that most people use it when they denounce things as "myths" these days. It's not a lie. It's not 'false' and it doesn't 'not exist.' Gender is mythic--a "myth" the way people who study history and literature and anthropology and stuff use the word. The creation of myths is an extremely important and influential component of being human. They are powerful. And everyone has their own sense of how powerful a myth is for them, how they interpret it and how it applies to them. And you cannot say that someone's perspective on how a myth affects or relates to them is invalid because it is merely a perspective and is not scientifically testable, or because myths evolve. If something is perceived, it exists, at least in that perception. I know it sounds quite circular and academic, and possibly like sort of a cop-out. "Myth" is sort of the humanities equivalent of "It's got something to do with quantum." But it's still real enough to be important

When you consider that all religion is mythology, including the modern ones, it does bug me when people use myth to mean false or non-existant. I like your definition better because it's right, and a very good way of putting it. Some people are atheists, some agnostic, some only go to church on christmas and easter, and some believe it very powerfully and it can be hard for the atheists to understand the ones who believe it because there isn't really scientific proof of it there's just what you feel is true just like it's hard for the believers to explain to the atheists. That's a very good analogy, thank you.

[Snap-Dragon]

Just for explanatory purposes, what's your sex (not your gender!), and why does it bother you to be called by that?

As I said earlier, I'm in the situation of having spent most of my life referring to myself as [my sex] and never having a problem with it because I was completely unaware you could be something else, despite my dislike for almost all physical features characteristic of my sex and my wish not to have them.

Then I discovered agender and neutrois and, well, I can't go back to the old way of thinking because it's simply wrong now that the reasons for it - not knowing you could be anything else - don't exist. I suppose, in many ways, I could almost be seen as 'becoming' trans later in life, even though I have always been, just unaware of it. ...I know that sounds odd, but it is really hard to explain so I do hope someone can understand it...

But anyway, although I'll almost certainly never be anything other than [my sex], and almost everyone I meet will address me with it until told otherwise, it bothers me because, as I said, it's wrong. So much so it does sort of hurt (especially if I'm, like now, in a sort of phase when I absolutely do not want to have a sex); I suppose the best way to describe it might be as though someone's jabbing me with a needle every time it's mentioned - my mind is immediately, and kind of painfully, in a way, drawn to it. It stands out, oftentimes more so than any other word in, or the overall meaning of, a sentence.

So it's sort of a discomfort with your body? Simply not wanting to have certain parts? I just still don't quite get why having certain body parts would bother someone that much, especially if they could just not use them...

Out of curiosity, is someone were to constantly refer to you as male, what would your feelings be to it?

*shrug* If I was male, it wouldn't bother me. If I woke up somehow with my exact same personality and everything, just in a male body, it wouldn't bother me to be called a male, because that's what I'd be. Not a very masculine male, perhaps, but a man just the same. If I wasn't a man and someone referred to me as male, I'd think he was either blind or daft, and would probably address him as such. :P

[Snap-Dragon]

Biologically male. "He" means you are biologically male. And being biologically male doesn't necessarily mean a person will be masculine, or, for that matter, attracted to women. Other than the fact that a majority of men will be more masculine than feminine, and that a majority will be heterosexual, I don't see how the two terms equate. Calling a man "he" doesn't demand that he act or believe in certain things, any more than it demands that he be attracted to women. It's merely an acknowledgment that he's biologically male.

This is not about demanding that men, be they transmen or cismen, act like "real men" should act. As I said- if someone wants to the the frilliest, froofiest, most feminine thing on the planet and still be called and treated as a man then you damn well better because that is their right.

I absolutely would. If a man wore a dress, I would still call him "he". If a woman wore a dress, I would call her "she". He/she doesn't have anything to do with what a person is wearing.

But why? I guess that's what I don't understand. What is it, exactly, that does so much damage?

It's the same damage as walking up to an asexual and saying "You're sexual. You like sex, you just don't realize it. You are a silly little child who wants attention and goes around trying to be something you aren't. Obviously this isn't the case, because everyone likes sex and no one will ever do anything but try and tolerate, or at worse actively persecute and possibly try to kill you for being who you think you are. And you deserve it, because anyone who's stupid enouhg to suggest they might not like sex and deserves everything they get." And hearing it every time someone uses that pronoun. Hearing it from birth, before you even realize that something's different about you, and hearing it every single day even by people who think they're being friendly.

I'm not sure I get the analogy... it's just other people's ignorance that bothers you so much? If someone said that to me, I would probably begin a huge educational lecture to rid them of their misinformed stereotypes.

Someone who is transgendered is not their sex, and insisting upon calling them that is like saying you don't believe them, they will never be that and no oen will ever see them like it and the hell that is that body will never end.Transgendereds have been killed for being who they are. They walk into transition knowing that if they're unlucky their life can be taken from them because of this, and you really think it doesn't hurt to be called the wrong pronoun?

That's harsh, and absolutely has to change. But the problem there is with an overly prejudicial society, not with the use of a pronoun.

And I guess this is kind of the key of what I'm confused about. In what way are they not their sex?

Just for explanatory purposes, what's your sex (not your gender!), and why does it bother you to be called by that?

Why, so you can insult me by ensuring to use it? Ignore the fact that the inability to pass made me completely hopeless and sends me into levels of depression that large quantities of anti-depressants don't even make a dent on fixing? It hurts. It hurts to be called that, and I refuse to tell you what I am when you are making it so obvious you can't seem to understand the suffering that a 3 letter pronoun can cause. I will not hand you a loaded gun immediately after you tell me you don't understand why it's such a big deal to shoot other people, and I'll thank you not to ask me to. Show me you deserve enough respect for me to trust you with that information, prove that it won't make any difference and you'll still treat me as I'd like to be treated and maybe, just maybe, I will consider it. But as it is you have done nothing to prove you have any right to that information and I will not tell you it only for you to use it to hurt me simply because you can't understand.

The thing is, I can't think of a single "gender" trait that's not just societal, or stereotype. Other than things like men tending to be taller and physically stronger, but I feel it would be a bit shallow to want to be the opposite sex just for their body...

Not only that, but it's impossible to make yourself taller. And it's not just their body, but wanting to be taller or having the body you should have been born with is hardly wrong. Some transwomen have periods even before hormones. They don't bleed, but they get all the other symptoms. Sometimes they'll get phantom limb syndrome so transmen will feel the penis that should be there and transwomen will feel their vagina, even before they start transitioning. Dysphoria is just that powerful.

Okay, well, it doesn't have to be specific. I assume from all this you feel that your sex and your gender are opposite, but how? In what way do they not line up? Is it just the desire to have a different body?

But it's even harder to tell someone's gender than it is their physical sex. And if we go by the whole idea of masculine and feminine as a sort of sliding scale, what that would mean is that everyone has their own gender. You can at least tell the difference between men and women by looking at them (well, mostly :P ), since there are physical differences. It wouldn't make sense to use he/she to refer to gender, because there's no more way to tell that about someone than there is to tell their sexual orientation by just a glance.

1. Stop ignoring intersexed. Stop ignoring that there is a scale of sex as well. Some women are tall, men short. Some women are flat chested or extremely curvy, some people aren't intersexed but are born to look quite androgynous, others are so androgynous they don't have either parts.

Ah, yes, the intersexed. I guess they're the ones who really get to choose which sex they want to be called by. Stop messing up my carefully outlined categories, darn it! But tall women/short men, flat-chested women, etc... those don't affect a person's sex. A woman is still a woman, regardless of her height or... ah... endowment.

Now, to transsexuals. Can you really look at a post-op transwoman and say she is a man? One who passes better than some cisgirls? What about people who are so androgynous that when they wakl into a room they actually get "What is it?" from people who insist upon fitting into the binary?

No, I guess not. Actually, doesn't post-op mean that they're now the biologically the opposite sex, regardless of how they were born? So a post-op transwoman would indeed be someone that would be called "she"... The fully androgynous just confuse me. I guess I would take my best guess as to their sex and use the appropriate pronoun, since calling someone "it" seems much more insulting than accidentally using the wrong pronoun. But it would be an accident to address them by "he" if they were actually a "she". Speaking of sex, of course, not of gender. But then, I would assume that if they dressed in such a way as to make it impossible to tell what sex they were, they probably wouldn't be bothered too much by people guessing wrong anyway...

Can you look at someone with a full beard, deep voice, male suit, and tell they have two X chromsomes? Why are you assuming that people are kind enough to fit into your idiotic little, close minded view of the world where people with a dick dress like men and people with a vagina dress like women and people with some combination or lack thereof don't exist.

I don't assume that at all. I was saying that you can tell a man apart from a woman physically, regardless of the way they're dressed. Usually. :P And on a separate note, I would love to see a man with enough spine to actually wear a (tasteful!) dress. Not creep by by dressing all the way up as a woman and making it impossible for anyone to tell that they were actually a man wearing that dress, but a man with enough courage to wear a dress and not pretend to be the opposite sex in order to get away with it. I would have so much respect for someone who challenged stereotypes that way. 8)

Also, I'm not sure how women dress like women anymore. It's pretty much impossible to be a female cross-dresser, because a girl can wear the, er, "manliest" of clothes and not even get a second glance. It's just that common. Sadly, it's been much slower to go the other way. With each generation, women seem to be encourage to be more and more "like men", but it hasn't been as socially acceptable for men to do that. I mean, 50 years ago, pink was a man's color, and 100 years ago, women did not ever wear pants, or dream of leading a company. Nowadays, that's so common no one even blinks. But it hasn't gone the other way as much; men haven't been allowed to become more emotional, or wear dresses, or such... But that's probably a whole different discussion.

[Snap-Dragon]

No, it doesn't. "He" means you're male. It's only a very recent notion that being biologically male and identifying as male are two different things, which means dithering over whether English has sex or gender pronouns is pointless--the pronouns were developed when people thought they were the same thing.

But now they're not the same thing. So, which does it refer to? I see it more being used to denote biological sex. After all, if a woman dressed up in a football uniform, or something else stereotypically manly (sorry, running short on examples!), people would still call her a "she". And if a man decided to wear a dress somewhere, people would still call him a "he". Unless, of course, people honestly couldn't tell what sex they were in those outfits, but if they realized later that the person they had thought was a "he" was actually a woman, they'd switch to using "she", as the former pronoun would have been a mistake...

Gender identity is the same sort of thing. It's a social construct, so it's not 'real' the same way that it's real that if you throw a rock up in the air it's going to come back down. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mean, language is a social construct, but we're still having a real argument with it, and if I started typing in Klingon you'd notice a difference. Race is a social construct, as many people point out, it being the most popular analogy, but now that we've constructed it--it bloody well exists! You can't say that just because race is a social construct, Barack Obama *isn't* the first black US President (or mulatto president, at any rate). What you *can* do is realize that it's not set in stone, it can evolve as people's thinking about it evolves, that it exists because we make it up. For example, I'm Irish. This means I'm white. It also means my Irish ancestors a hundred years ago *weren't* white. The Irish were not considered white people for a very long time. Does this mean I'm not *actually* white? Or does it mean that people a hundred years ago were wrong and my ancestors actually *were* white?

The answer is (a) neither and (b) who cares, I consider myself to be Irish and white, and that's my business and doesn't necessarily mean anything except itself. I have another friend who's of Irish descent and white and only considers himself to be white; he has no sense of himself as "Irish" and considers the Irish a 'them' rather than an 'us'.

Frankly, gender identity is about that circular. If you feel like you're male, then you're male--nobody else is going to know that *better* than you. If you feel like you're female, then you're female, and again, nobody else is going to know that better than you. If you feel neither, or both, then that's how you see yourself.

Now, people with a certain gender identity will often be perfectly happy to more or less go along with some aspects of society's corresponding 'gender role', but only if they feel like it. Sometimes they don't. It's not about being masculine or feminine or androgynous, these are societal assignments of traits associating them with certain genders, but they're not actually the same thing. And what is 'masculine' or 'feminine' or 'androgynous' and how strongly they are considered to be 'supposed to' be paralleled with being male or female is extremely fluid, evolving rapidly from place to place and time to time, and occasionally from class to class, race to race, or subculture to subculture within the same place and time. But the notions of being "male" and "female" are much more longstanding and pervasive. There are certain cultures with more than two accepted genders, but the majority of them, over the past several millennia, have had genders of "male" and "female"--not just biological sexes, but genders. "Masculine" and "feminine" are fashions.

That is a good point, though it just seems like gender is whatever you care to make of it, which is why I get confused about why people get upset over it. You're a woman who hates pink? Well, realize that "liking pink" is not a female trait, it's an individual preference. It doesn't make you less of a woman. That sort of thing. If society associates a certain trait with a particular sex, then wouldn't it be better to show that that's nothing but a stereotype, rather than anguishing about how you don't have that trait? Especially now, when gender is becoming so fluid and easily challenged, I find it confusing that people get so upset over it. I just see it as, people finally have the freedom and flexibility to be pretty much however they want to be, but instead of celebrating that and accepting that all these traits are individual, they focus on how people used to think that these traits belonged to a certain gender, and get huffy over a past mindset.

That myth bit makes quite a bit of sense, though. *wanders off to ponder it further*