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Can anyone give me hope?


Needhope

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Obviously she already did just that and - surprisingly - it didn't change her and her husbands dilemma.

And obviously I made it quite clear I knew that, unless you missed every part of my comment bar the sentence you quoted.

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And obviously I made it quite clear I knew that, unless you missed every part of my comment bar the sentence you quoted.
Needhope -- is this the case? Have you both been very blunt and open with one another? It is very hard to do that during the limerance stage of a relationship, even for people who re-marry!

Santanico, it may simply be my own denial, but I don't think the situation is completely hopeless.

Oops, sorry I forgot that this is actually Needhope's thread :redface:

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sexless sexual
On the other hand, not all dilemmas have solutions. Needhope, the folks who are telling you to run are giving you sound advice on one level: Do not fool yourself into thinking something is ok if it is not. If you think that the lack of sex could be a problem at any point, then deal with it now, don't wait for later. And if it is a deal breaker, then you have your answer.

Marriage is hard enough. It's worth absolutely every drop of sweat, but it is the single most difficult thing human beings attempt to do. You don't need additional handicaps!

I forgot to add a caveat to this advice. Needhope: About being brutally honest with yourselves -- let me give you an example.

When we were courting, early in the courtship, I heard my husband say something that told me he did not want children. For me, that was a deal breaker. Having children was as necessary to me as breathing. So, I asked

him about it. I told him that, if he didn't want children, then he shouldn't have any, but that I needed to know right now, before we got further involved, and I'd walk away. He took time to consider. Then told me that, while he didn't need children as part of his identity, he was willing to have them as long as we didn't start a family in the first year or two, so we could stabilize the marriage first. I agreed with the need to do that, so we were agreed and continued the courtship.

However, later on, he decided he couldn't deal with children and there we were... stuck. That we worked it out says something about the depth of our relationship.

My point? My husband didn't lie to me. He lied to himself. And he cannot be any more honest to anyone else than he is to himself. Make as sure as you can that you and your man don't make this mistake.

But also know that if you do, it is possible to survive it ... if you love enough and are willing to work very, very hard.

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sexless sexual --- In terms of initiating communication about asexuality during courtship, I'd put the onus on the asexual.

UltraViolet --- Sorry, but things have to go both ways and as far as "putting the onus on the asexual" - there are many asexuals who do not fully realize that they are asexual yet and may think that they just have a "lower drive" and/or think "Oh, things will be fine/better when I'm married" - especially those who marry young and are more idealistic. This was also true of those who married years ago when NO ONE had even heard of asexuality - and it was especially difficult for men because "God forbid" a man should ever admit to not wanting much (or any) sex.

sexless sexual --- Assuming both partners to be exposed to all the things that build the expectation of sex in our culture, the sexual one has no knowledge that it needs to come up at all. The sexual has nothing to question.

UltraViolet --- Wrong - look how many people end up in unfulfilling, even sexless marriages (with other SEXUALS) because they never asked questions. Even sexuals know that there are levels of sexual drive/interest and it IS up to them to ask pertinent questions. There are just as many problems between partners with high drive/low drive issues as there are between sexuals/asexuals. In fact, there are probablly more marriages with high drive/low drive issues simply because there are more sexuals than asexuals in general. However, a gap in drive/interest is still a gap regardless of who the parties are. Also, what about sexual "styles"? - say you are more a "vanilla" type sexual - wouldn't you want to ask/know if your intended partner had some unusual sexual desires/fetishes that you would never want to participate in? Having those issues pop up later in a marriage can be just as unwelcome of a suprise as a large gap in frequency needs. Anyone who "assumes" that there is nothing to question I cannot feel sorry for when they end up with bad results.

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<<I think she should enjoy what she have got already>>

I must say I disagree. It's like telling someone who really wants her own children to "be happy you're a stepmom." The OP is entitled to her needs and wants. If she needs frequent sex and to be desired, that is no less valid than needing deep conversation or emotional support.

E.

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sexless sexual

@ Ultraviolet: I don't think we're in disagreement, really. It seems that you may have missed the context in which I laid the onus of communication concerning sex needs on the asexual. That was in the context of the asexual knowing him/herself to be asexual. Obviously, if neither party knows about asexuality, neither will think of it! And yes, I am fully aware that many people do not know the orientation "asexual" even exists. Until 10 days ago, I was one of them! Isn't that why this website exists in the first place? And a good thing, too, imo.

As for what is expected and what should be expected ... In the last decade or so I have been working very hard to get the American use of "should" out of my vocabulary. Such judgment is rarely helpful to either the judged or the judge. But I think evanescence said it well -- there are some things that are taken so for granted culturally that it would not occur to anyone to ask, unless they were well-experienced, indeed. Sex in marriage is one of those things. It is easy to say that anyone who doesn't ask deserves what they get. As I posted, sometimes even asking doesn't get you the answer you need. And even if it does, humans are really, really bad at introspection. (If I were made Supreme Commander of the world, I would consider adding mandatory counseling as a regular weekly occurrence for every child during their schooling years up through undergraduate work. Then, maybe, we'd be better at knowing and understanding ourselves.)

As you said, lack of sex between sexuals happens, and this is explicit in our culture. However, as has been pointed out in other posts, our culture also explicitly states that it only happens when something is "wrong" -- either physiologically or with the relationship itself. Sexuals (and I would think unknowing asexuals as well) are thus trained to fear, or at least be concerned or worried, if sex doesn't happen in marriage.

I started another thread about what are/are not reasonable expectations to bring into marriage; not limited to sexual expectations. Feel free to comment, please!

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I'll make a final comment (final for me, that is). I had a 10-year marriage which ended in divorce; I had a 34-year emotional/sexual relationship which has now changed into a friendship since I discovered there was such a thing as asexuality, and that I had fit that category all my life. For all the years before that I'd tried to do the sexual thing. I didn't complain that my partners were unattractive, I didn't withhold sex, I didn't "abuse" my partners in any way. I simply did what I could, and was uncomfortable to the point of being in pain.

So, asexuals are not all cruel to their sexuals.

What continues to amaze me is when anyone--sexual or asexual--says they cannot leave a relationship, that they are trapped or caught or that they have "15 years into the relationship" so they have to work it out somehow. I do not--and no one has on this thread or anywhere else on AVEN I've seen--advocate giving up without trying to make it work.

However, if you simply insist on battering on the same wall, a wall which really isn't going to come down (a wall being a possible view by sexuals of an asexual not wanting or "giving" sex), then you are participating in your own abuse. You cannot force it; you cannot expect counseling to make an asexual become sexual; you cannot expect compromise to necessarily make everything pleasant (or even bearable) for both partners.

If both partners feel unhappy and have complaints about each other over a considerable period of time, then splitting up should be considered. Otherwise you're simply dooming yourselves--each of you--to a marriage that isn't a marriage. If things stayed the same for the next ten years, would you feel at the end of that ten years that it had been worth it? Or would you wish that you had not allowed your pride and unwillingness to face reality force you to stay in that situation?

That's the question to think about. If ten years from now you're still complaining about feeing abused by your asexual partner, what were those ten years about?

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@ Ultraviolet: I don't think we're in disagreement, really. It seems that you may have missed the context in which I laid the onus of communication concerning sex needs on the asexual. That was in the context of the asexual knowing him/herself to be asexual.

Well, yes, if somone already knows they are asexual they should definitely tell the sexual (tho I, personally will never date sexuals again - the gap would be insurmountable as I never want sex again). However, I still think a sexual person should be aware of anything that might not line up with their own expectations. I have read many stories of sexuals who never bothered to ask about their partners lesser/lack of sexual interest before marriage. Granted, they did not know about asexuality but isn't even a sign of a lesser interest a red flag anyway? I agree that far too many people are not very self aware. I believe that THE most important questions to ask in dating/potential marriage scenarios are questions about sexual preferences/needs as somehow sex always seems to be THE biggest deal breaker in relationships/marriages.

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And yes, I am fully aware that many people do not know the orientation "asexual" even exists. Until 10 days ago, I was one of them!

the more i hear about your marriage life, the more frustrated i become. if i were in your place i would be tremendously upset and saddened. i was very surprised to hear that it was only about 10 days ago that you found out about your husband's sexual orientation, which is Asexuality. you may be a lot more settled now than 9 days ago but i figure that there may still be a lot for you to deal with at the moment.

i have no idea what lies behind your soft and controlled voice that i hear while reading your posts. you may have lived for 15 years feeling undesired, unloved, betrayed, angry with your husband, and guilty(maybe as a result of your anger, i guess). now you have learned about Asexuality and probably have been able to free yourself from a lot of negative feelings towards your husband and yourself since you know very well that the only thing he has done so far was just be true to himself loving you standing by you sharing ups and downs of life providing a reliable shoulder for you to rest your head on.. and being who he is.

that is just a fact, however. while i assume that you could digest and process things with your head for a short period of time, i doubt that you could do the same with your emotions because i don't think our heart works the same way as our head does. regardless of what the rest of the world says, if you felt you were being abused at one point in your life, you were being abused. that is a fact in your world. regardless of how you see things right now, if you were hurt in the past, you were. i don't really think your enlightenment could clean up the emotional mess altogether overnight that was a serious part of your life for such a long time. the hurt would likely remain somewhere in your psyche if it didn't get properly taken care of. just because you are aware that your husband never intended to hurt you doesn't mean that you can change the fact that you got hurt. it cannot erase the history that you felt betrayed, cheated, and angry. the hurt is still probably there. and i would like to say that you have every right to be mad.

you can be angry at the fact that there happened to be something called Asexuality in the world; your husband happened to be one of those who can identify with that very orientation; you happened to meet the man and fall in love with him; he happened to be completely unaware of some important things so he could not provide you with certain vital information beforehand; and you happened to be one of the people who still love and respect their spouse if they have lived together for 15 years.

you can say to the world it has nothing to do with my husband himself he didn't do anything wrong i'm only angry at external facts certainly not me why would i be angry at myself? guilty?? no, not at all. honestly i feel like i'm a victim here.. in a well tuned voice. but i think it'd be good for you to raise your voice or leave it shaky when you are talking to your therapist.

i used to feel that blaming was easier and more convenient because it seemed that it could be done without my self being hurt. but i had to realize that it was just a horrible illusion.

there is something i really want to say to you.

none of this is your fault. (just as it isn't your husband's fault.)

you were never silly for even one second.

you did the best you could and lived your life making the right decisions or doing what you deemed best for you at the very moment. (i believe so because i think everyone would want to make themselves happy and make a good life for themselves.)

and the decision you will have to make in the near future will be the best and right one for you too, as i am sure that you will have worked very hard to come up with brilliant ideas to sort things out. (i'm hoping)

things running through your head from time to time,

feelings you occasionally have,

that you wish you didn't have,, if you had such things..

i don't think that means you are a bad person.

you are just responding.. I would say.

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sexless sexual

@happylife:

Your post brought tears to my eyes. People being so kind and understanding usually does make me cry. Thank you. Your post meant a lot.

Oh, I may be calm and collected in public. For one thing, I know (now!) I'm not alone in my situation, and the others who have posted don't need my rant, they need my insight. For another, I'm aware that for everyone who has posted, there are at least 100 lurkers reading. They, too, need insight.

For another thing, I don't rant in public. I'm well aware that anything put in any electronic form and sent over the Internet lives forever. I try to post in such a way that if one of my posts surfaces 10 years from now, I won't have to blush.

Yes, putting a specific name to our situation did take a lot of the self-flagellation out of the picture, and that alone feels wonderful. It was my anger over the lack of sex after the turn-around on children that brought us into marriage counseling in the first place. I've learned through years of therapy that anger is a signal, and I've come to listen to what my psyche tries to tell me. But it is difficult to find answers through anger. At some point I have to let it go. Either we can find a way to meet both our requirements - he has no more sex than he is comfortable with and I have no less sex than I am comfortable with -- or we turn to more ... extreme possibilities.

I am not abused, not by my husband - the emotional and sexual abuse came to me in my childhood. By the situation, yeah, but it wouldn't have caused me to use the word in a posting. I really wasn't referring to my own situation. After all, my husband isn't the only one who didn't understand himself. When we married, my libido was, well, pretty low anyway. Having been depressed since I was a teenager, I had no idea what would happen when I finally broke through the depression. Neither of us understood how mis-matched we were sexually. But in the way we view the world, intellect, priorities, financial nature, life goals, humor, interests, music -- we are so well matched. It hasn't come up in posts here, given the topics, but it is a rare day when we don't share laughter, a rare day when we don't learn something from one another, and a rare day that we don't get one step closer to our goals together.

I'm no snow maiden. I've had crying bouts, I've been angry and hurt, I've had sleepless nights -- all long before I broached the subject in counseling. I've been bitter that, for whatever cosmic reason, the passionate woman who waited to have sex and the man who wasn't sexual came together. I wonder, if I hadn't been so depressed so early, would I have been freer with my emotions and dared to date and experiment with more men? That is really haunting me now. So, as I need to, I go for individual counseling in addition to the couples counseling. And our counselor is keeping very close tabs on me. The shock/denial is going to fade soon, and then will come the hard slog. I don't think it will be pretty -- I just think the marriage is worth it, if we can get to a solution we can both live with happily.

But I'm going to keep your post around to re-read when my spirit flags. Thank you!

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sexless sexual
I believe that THE most important questions to ask in dating/potential marriage scenarios are questions about sexual preferences/needs as somehow sex always seems to be THE biggest deal breaker in relationships/marriages.

Actually, you'd think from what "they" (the ubiquitous, anonymous "they") say that this would be the case. It turns out it is not. It might amuse you to look at these three sites -- I googled on "causes divorce" and chose 3 at random. There are other sources out there.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Common-Causes-of...e&id=908257

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/common-caus...or-divorce.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/3...ge=1&cat=41

Lack of commitment, finances, abuse and adultery all rank higher than sexual incompatibility.

When we first went to counseling, my husband and I both worked outside the home. We would meet at the counselor's office after work. Since he left earlier than I did, sometimes the first chance we've have to discuss the little things that people living together need to discuss, we would talk while waiting for our counselor to be ready, if we can early.

One session, she had an emergency call just as we sat down. She left to take the call, and the two of us did our usual "Oh, I meant to tell you ..." stuff. That day it was all about finances. We had pretty much decided how we were going to handle things when the counselor returned. We took just another minute to wrap up, and then faced our counselor .... whose jaw was on the floor.

Never, not once, in her entire career had she seen a married couple discuss finances with such comfort, agreement and downright pleasure. On that little land mine, we are all but invincible.

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Actually, you'd think from what "they" (the ubiquitous, anonymous "they") say that this would be the case. It turns out it is not. It might amuse you to look at these three sites -- I googled on "causes divorce" and chose 3 at random. There are other sources out there.

I said sexual issues SEEM to be the biggest dealbreaker - not necesasarily the ONLY dealbreaker. I base my conclusions on real-life experiences - not surveys or articles - though perhaps I have been reading too many boards where sexuals are always talking about divorce based on unfulfilled sexual needs. The first two sites you provided listed other reasons as well as sexual issues but did not say that the list was in ranking order. The third site did list a ranking order and it listed infidelity 2nd and sexual issues 3rd (tho infidelity is usually caused by sexual problems/unmet needs anyway). I can't say I found the sites "amusing" though.

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sexless sexual
Actually, you'd think from what "they" (the ubiquitous, anonymous "they") say that this would be the case. It turns out it is not. It might amuse you to look at these three sites -- I googled on "causes divorce" and chose 3 at random. There are other sources out there.

I said sexual issues SEEM to be the biggest dealbreaker - not necesasarily the ONLY dealbreaker. I base my conclusions on real-life experiences - not surveys or articles - though perhaps I have been reading too many boards where sexuals are always talking about divorce based on unfulfilled sexual needs. The first two sites you provided listed other reasons as well as sexual issues but did not say that the list was in ranking order. The third site did list a ranking order and it listed infidelity 2nd and sexual issues 3rd (tho infidelity is usually caused by sexual problems/unmet needs anyway). I can't say I found the sites "amusing" though.

Your post "sounds" angry -- if so, I meant no offense, and I apologize. The "amusing" was an unfortunate turn of phrase.

Among sexuals, it is not uncommon for sex to become a weapon wielded in a battle over something else. So what may seem to be a break-up over sex really isn't. Obviously, on a board specifically meant to discuss sexual orientation, sex will come up much more frequently than otherwise. This does not in any way negate your experience or opinion, both of which are valid and real. I'm merely presenting another viewpoint.

On an issue as complex as this, different viewpoints can be helpful, no? This isn't an argument to be won or lost, nor is it a competition. At least to me, this site is dedicated to information and education, and in this particular forum, that information and education is directed at both the asexual and the sexual for their mutual enlightenment. It is in that spirit that I post.

Again, my apologies.

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(sexless sexual)

Actually, you'd think from what "they" (the ubiquitous, anonymous "they") say that this would be the case. It turns out it is not. It might amuse you to look at these three sites -- I googled on "causes divorce" and chose 3 at random. There are other sources out there.

(UltraViolet)

I said sexual issues SEEM to be the biggest dealbreaker - not necesasarily the ONLY dealbreaker. I base my conclusions on real-life experiences - not surveys or articles - though perhaps I have been reading too many boards where sexuals are always talking about divorce based on unfulfilled sexual needs. The first two sites you provided listed other reasons as well as sexual issues but did not say that the list was in ranking order. The third site did list a ranking order and it listed infidelity 2nd and sexual issues 3rd (tho infidelity is usually caused by sexual problems/unmet needs anyway). I can't say I found the sites "amusing" though.

(sexless sexual)

Your post "sounds" angry -- if so, I meant no offense, and I apologize. The "amusing" was an unfortunate turn of phrase.

(UltraViolet)

I wasn't angry - I was just trying to emphasize the importance of sexual compatability in a marriage since all I ever seem to see and hear is sexual incompatability as a main (if not the main) reason for divorce. There are a few sites that deal with this issue specifically that are filled with some very angry/frustrated/confused sexuals. I have yet to see any websites for discussion about how finances (supposedly the #1 reason) are ruining peoples marriages (not that they don't ruin things but there are no sites that I have seen addressing this issue where people go to vent or try to get sympathy). Until society accepts asexuality as a part of the range of normal then, unfortunately, there will continue to be many more marriages/relationships that end up in frustration over sexual issues (and, yes, I know that not everything can be predicted beforehand but stil, the more people know who they are the easier it will be to communicate before things get too involved).

(sexless sexual)

Among sexuals, it is not uncommon for sex to become a weapon wielded in a battle over something else. So what may seem to be a break-up over sex really isn't.

(UltraViolet)

I understand that sex can be used as a weapon by sexuals however, on the boards I have been reading the bottom line is still no sex for many sexuals and they do explicitly state that it is the lack of sex (for whatever reason) that makes them consider divorce.

(sexless sexual)

Obviously, on a board specifically meant to discuss sexual orientation, sex will come up much more frequently than otherwise. This does not in any way negate your experience or opinion, both of which are valid and real. I'm merely presenting another viewpoint.

(UltraViolet)

I realize that - and, of course, there will also be reasons besides lack of sex that cause divorce.

(sexless sexual)

On an issue as complex as this, different viewpoints can be helpful, no? This isn't an argument to be won or lost, nor is it a competition.

(UltraViolet)

I never said anything about an argument or a competetion. Replying to a post doesn't make it an argument.

(sexless sexual)

At least to me, this site is dedicated to information and education, and in this particular forum, that information and education is directed at both the asexual and the sexual for their mutual enlightenment.

(UltraViolet)

Yes it is, and thankfully on AVEN both sides seem to be a lot more amiable and respectful than on other sites (tho of course there will occasionally be some points of contention that will be difficult to navigate than others).

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I have enjoyed the intelligent spirited discussion here, and elsewhere, regarding (especially) what Sexless Sexual (SS) should do.

I want to briefly summarize the salient aspects of the dilemma. SS has been married for about 15 years. She and her husband (H) have not had sex for about 13 years. SS is about 55 years of age. SS is recovering from a longstanding depression, and she wants sex with H, who does not want any.

During the 13 years of abstinence, one assumes that SS has gone from a fertile, ovulating woman to post-menopausal. H could logically assume that menopause has resulted in SS having little or no interest in sex. After all, isn’t it conventional wisdom that a woman’s libido ebbs when her menses cease to flow?

So now SS suddenly wants to do it. Not only that, she wants to make up for lost time. She has convinced herself that all of her troubles will fade away as she searches for her G-spot and other haunts where the big O lurks.

Just as the body of SS has made changes, H is not as virile as he once was. His woody is more like balsa or cork than earlier times when it was more like oak or ash. Oh, I forgot. Viagra turns men to steel.

Not only that, but a menopausal woman will need some artificial lubricant to accommodate a faux breeding activity. Think of the romantic setting: light some candles, put on some soft music with a hypnotic beat, and pull out the Pam and spray where the cooking is going to take place. (reminds me of the joke where a woman asks another: “Do you ever smoke after having sex?” “I don’t know,” she replied. “I’ve never looked.”)

Anyway, I couldn’t help but have a little reverie about this. Lest there be any doubt, I do not intend to offend anybody with this. Please don’t take offense.

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I have enjoyed the intelligent spirited discussion here, and elsewhere, regarding (especially) what Sexless Sexual (SS) should do.

I want to briefly summarize the salient aspects of the dilemma. SS has been married for about 15 years. She and her husband (H) have not had sex for about 13 years. SS is about 55 years of age. SS is recovering from a longstanding depression, and she wants sex with H, who does not want any.

During the 13 years of abstinence, one assumes that SS has gone from a fertile, ovulating woman to post-menopausal. H could logically assume that menopause has resulted in SS having little or no interest in sex. After all, isn’t it conventional wisdom that a woman’s libido ebbs when her menses cease to flow?

So now SS suddenly wants to do it. Not only that, she wants to make up for lost time. She has convinced herself that all of her troubles will fade away as she searches for her G-spot and other haunts where the big O lurks.

Just as the body of SS has made changes, H is not as virile as he once was. His woody is more like balsa or cork than earlier times when it was more like oak or ash. Oh, I forgot. Viagra turns men to steel.

Not only that, but a menopausal woman will need some artificial lubricant to accommodate a faux breeding activity. Think of the romantic setting: light some candles, put on some soft music with a hypnotic beat, and pull out the Pam and spray where the cooking is going to take place. (reminds me of the joke where a woman asks another: “Do you ever smoke after having sex?” “I don’t know,” she replied. “I’ve never looked.”)

Anyway, I couldn’t help but have a little reverie about this. Lest there be any doubt, I do not intend to offend anybody with this. Please don’t take offense.

So you went ahead and posted your weird, full-of-strange-assumptions fantasy about cooking spray and...er...Viagra? You seemed to know it had some potential for offense, so why did you post?

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So everyone takes offense. Hmmm.

Not just anybody can piss off asexuals as well as sexuals, eh?

I take offense at everyone taking offense.

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So everyone takes offense. Hmmm.

Not just anybody can piss off asexuals as well as sexuals, eh?

I take offense at everyone taking offense.

Even if sexless sexual can start to have sex with her husband, her sex life with him would very likely be a bumpy road for her and her husband to walk along. I do not know how you feel about her situation. If you are interested in knowing my feelings about it, I would tell you I am very serious. I can see that you summarized her life and her predicament very briefly so other people including those who did not get to read her posts can learn about her struggles. However, I cannot deny that I was offended by the way you dealt with sexless sexual's story in your post and the way you depicted women's sex and body in their mature period of life, which I think you may know very little about.

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Both sexual and asexual women tend to be pissed off by inappropriate, misogynist comments. Probably some men get pissed off by them also.

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I actually had to go back and look up what the OP said (who was not sexless sexual actually) - are we still discussing it? If so, all I can say to Needhope is always try the best you can to make things work but please also be absolutely honest with yourself about what you know you can and cannot handle. Your partner is willing to accomodate your sexual needs and even if it might not be the way you always dreamed of it does really show a lot of love that he is willing to provide for your needs in the best way he knows how. On the other hand, if you really need for him to be interested in sex the way a sexual would be then you do have a hard decision to make.

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As I wrote what I wrote, I wondered if others would think I was being harsh, insensitive or such. That was the reason I referred to what I wrote as a “reverie”, and said, in as many words, I did not wish to offend, etc. Somewhere, from the recesses of my ignorant psyche, I thought I was…oh, never mind. When in a hole and wanting out of a hole, stop digging!

As it turns out, I miscalculated. I was being not merely harsh or insensitive, I was--- way worse! Way, way worse! In fact, I am a misogynist per Sally (who in another thread also accused me of either being or getting close to being an anti-Semite).

I apologize to everybody offended by what I wrote. I especially apologize to Sexless Sexual who might have taken special offense. I wish you, Sexless Sexual, the best. I hope you succeed in resolving all issues that have presented themselves to your life. I am willing to bet you will succeed too.

I also wish the best for everyone else too.

The best lesson I can learn from this is that I can clearly be more productive in ways other than writing messages or thoughts in this board. I have known for some time now that I need to get out more. I shall do so.

Good luck, and best wishes for all.

Oh, also, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and Happy New Year to all.

jay williams

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sexless sexual
I apologize to everybody offended by what I wrote. I especially apologize to Sexless Sexual who might have taken special offense. I wish you, Sexless Sexual, the best. I hope you succeed in resolving all issues that have presented themselves to your life. I am willing to bet you will succeed too.

Apology accepted. You also owe one to Needhope, since originally this was about her, and I posted mostly in support and fellowship. I, too, owe her an apology. Whatever I do, I do wholeheartedly and energetically, but to hijack her thread was at best rude. Sorry, Needhope. We've not heard from you in a while ... have we helped at all?

Jay, I saw the humor in your post. At first. It did get offensive, and I think you sorta knew it, but it was too good a joke to keep to yourself. You got a chuckle out of me. But ...

Where is the offense? First, you belittle sex and love, in a thread specific to folks who are currently hurting over just those things. Second, "conventional wisdom" is almost always wrong. There is no diminished libido among menopausal women. Blindly following "what everyone knows" in this case was highly misogynistic. (And by the way, although it was reasonable to assume I'd be menopausal, actually I am not. At this point, I wish I were!)

But mostly, you took an intimate, painful experience and made a cheap joke out of it. That is something that can be even welcomed once the pain is diminished, or the problem solved. But during the depth of the pain ... no. Until we can laugh with you, you are merely laughing at us. And that will always be offensive.

I think, too, you meant it more as comic relief than offense. The secret to good comedy is timing. This was not good timing.

Good luck with your projects.

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sexless sexual

Just for the record:

I received a PM from Jay Williams. He is contrite, but intends to keep to his promise to lay off posting for a while, and cogitate on what he learned from this experience.

He also appreciated my explanation of why what he posted was so offensive. In his words "even boors can sometimes learn to be better."

True contrition is always worth noticing. At least, in my opinion.

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*pokes his modly head in and nods approvingly*

I've been watching this thread as it developed, and while it gave some concern for a bit there, I'm very pleased with how it seems to have turned out. While I can't approve of either excessive flippancy OR of vigilante modding, I think the harmonious resolution speaks for itself. This thread makes me happy to be an AVENite.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Anyways, I still think demanding sex out of anyone is, to put it mildly, extremely uncouth. No one is obligated to have sex with you. However, what you are obligated to is respect other people’s “no sex” boundaries (be they sexual or asexual). That’s all there is to it really. You can try to barter with sex but all you’ll end up with (unless you are extremely honest with both yourself and your partner on the nature and length of your relationship) is hurt in the end. Is this tough? Perhaps for some, but I see honesty the least tough of the available options.

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I have enjoyed the intelligent spirited discussion here, and elsewhere, regarding (especially) what Sexless Sexual (SS) should do.

I want to briefly summarize the salient aspects of the dilemma. SS has been married for about 15 years. She and her husband (H) have not had sex for about 13 years. SS is about 55 years of age. SS is recovering from a longstanding depression, and she wants sex with H, who does not want any.

During the 13 years of abstinence, one assumes that SS has gone from a fertile, ovulating woman to post-menopausal. H could logically assume that menopause has resulted in SS having little or no interest in sex. After all, isn’t it conventional wisdom that a woman’s libido ebbs when her menses cease to flow?

So now SS suddenly wants to do it. Not only that, she wants to make up for lost time. She has convinced herself that all of her troubles will fade away as she searches for her G-spot and other haunts where the big O lurks.

Just as the body of SS has made changes, H is not as virile as he once was. His woody is more like balsa or cork than earlier times when it was more like oak or ash. Oh, I forgot. Viagra turns men to steel.

Not only that, but a menopausal woman will need some artificial lubricant to accommodate a faux breeding activity. Think of the romantic setting: light some candles, put on some soft music with a hypnotic beat, and pull out the Pam and spray where the cooking is going to take place. (reminds me of the joke where a woman asks another: “Do you ever smoke after having sex?” “I don’t know,” she replied. “I’ve never looked.”)

Anyway, I couldn’t help but have a little reverie about this. Lest there be any doubt, I do not intend to offend anybody with this. Please don’t take offense.

That's one sexually explicit post that doesnt make me wanna migrate to the porn sites :lol:

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*pokes modly head in again*

Guys, check the rest of the page. That particular post already took heat, and the situation's been resolved to my satisfaction. Don't keep digging up stuff that's a sensitive issue to all involved. That's just plain rude.

I'm locking this thread for 48 hours, after which the thread will be reopened for legitimate discourse. If there's any more rehashing of settled issues, I may take more permanent actions.

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