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Support Groups for Sexuals?


starcat

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It could be an excuse, to debrive sexuals of something that they need to share with their partner.

Okay, if there is no such thing as asexual: then everyone is sexual and everyone needs to share it with their partner. Therefore, by your logic, they are depriving themselves of it as well. Why would people do that?

Asexuals are very wise people, maybe.

You just said we don't exist. Make up your mind.

They know that it is human nature to want what you can't have, therefore, they could be laughing behind our backs, and wondering why we have been stupid enough to hang around this long.

Does that mean that if everyone could have sex they'd stop wanting it? okay, I'd be willing to do it once if the end result was a world of asexuals.

IF YOU CAN PROVE THIS TO BE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I"M SAYING< PLEASE SHOW ME. Where are the doctor's reports. What books are out there, that I can read? Show me proof, that asexuals are not just selfish people. I am saying that I'm sorry in advance, just in case anyone on here, can provide me with some solid proof that there is such a thing as an asexual.

Um... the doctor's reports saying most of us are perfectly healthy? Just like people of any orientation? That this isn't a disorder so you can hardly use doctors to diagnose it?

I'm sorry, what are you looking for, exactly? Show me a post on here that proves we're selfish. Show me someone who, unlike all the posts of people who try to compromise with their partner, is laughing at their sexual partner. I just can't figure out where you even got that idea.

Are you complaining about how I feel sex is disgusting? How, because of that, I would refuse to date someone who didn't fully understand that sex will not be part of the relationship? What about that makes me selfish, exactly?

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Consider: is it a "need to share" or a "need to get"? Do people feel "deprived" if they are not allowed to share? Or is it more likely they feel "deprived" if they are not getting what they want?

If I made a platter of baklava and offered you some/all of it, you might say I am sharing, but the fact is I am giving it to you with or without the expectation of anything in return except your enjoyment of a fine dessert. If you turned down the baklava because you were counting calories, should I feel hurt or deprived?

If I brought a platter of baklava to a party and walked around the room offering it to everyone except you, what is the case when you would feel deprived? Probably if you wanted to take a piece of baklava. With your self-proclaimed need for a piece of baklava, you may consider me selfish for not offering you a piece even if the truth of the matter is that I simply ran out and no harm was intended. In any other case, you may not even notice or attach any emotions to a simple piece of baklava.

If you threw a dinner party and invited me, and later noticed that I didn't bring any baklava for you to take, you may get angry. You may even resort to thinking that I was selfish. But if you didn't make it clear verbally before the party that I was only invited on the condition that I brought baklava, then who is to blame? You may have assumed I would know. I, on the other hand, may not know how to make baklava nor that I was required to bring any whether I personally liked it or not. Heck, I may not even consider baklava part of my dietary requirements and wonder why you are making such a fuss after the party has already started. I now understand it wasn't me and my happy company you invited to the party, but what I could give to you to satisfy your sweet tooth.

The truth of the matter is, many sexuals make assumptions on what is considered "part of the bargain" when they marry. They project their needs on others, assuming all are the same, instead of really getting to understand and appreciate the other person. This is further exemplified when one person starts to wonder if the other person is gay, having an affair, trying to be manipulative, etc. The question I would ask as an outsider is: "How well did you really know the person before you married them if you are starting to question now if they are gay or not??".

If you are indeed feeling deprived of sex which you think is basic, is your logic telling you that your spouse is also depriving himself all in the name of manipulation? Is he manipulative in other aspects of his life? Why did you marry a manipulative person?

Yes, a book needs to be written by sexuals for sexuals based on what they have learned from asexuals! Believe it or not, I think there are some sexuals on this board who are qualified to do so. We cannot make assumptions of another's need for sex based on our own needs or what we think are the needs of most people. Even two sexual people may not agree on the quantity or quality of sex, that is apparent. How do you determine that before you get into a committed relationship? What about the honeymoon phase? How do you determine the level of sexual activity will remain the same, if that is what is desired, after the honeymoon/bonding phase? Do all people get married with the ultimate desire to have constant, continual recreational sex? Some do, but some don't. Each person really needs to figure out why they get married. If it is to find a good mother/father for your potential children, and that is what you have found, then don't beat them up or yourself up because the non-procreational sex is not what you envisioned. That is not what you were looking for primarily in the first place. If you get married to a person who will be a good step-parent and they are, then realize that. If you marry someone who will be superficially impressive to your friends and family, regardless of how sexual they were before you married, then realize that. If you marry someone to support you, and being financially supported is your primary goal, then realize your other goals may not be met just because you assumed they would be. One person stated they married because they "had" to in order to get a visa to another country. That was the goal of the marriage literally and one or both parties may not assume anything more is expected. People are different. Vive le difference, I say! However, you are in a relationship with ONE person, not everyone and their brother. If one person cannot carry the expected burden, then consider other options. People are unique, so relationships should be unique. Define what you want in your relationship and be able to spell it out! If you are adept at understanding your own sexuality, how can you begin to understand the sexuality of others? What needs to be done? What are the signs?

AVEN is about asexuality visibility and education. Perhaps as time goes on, more books will be written about asexuals. But do you really need a book to tell you that people are unique?

Worm

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Worm, I think your post should be the post of the week.

Agreed.

Miserable, I understand how frustrated and hurt you might be feeling right now, but please try to be respectful of the user base here. Personal accusations against a whole group of people are not a good way to open dialogue.

That said, I'll try to answer your questions for evidence. There is precious little research done on asexuality in humans, but it's been well documented in sheep and rats. Also, Tony Bogaert has done some published research on the subject, and also gave me this paper arguing for the validity of asexuality as a human orientation.

On the other hand, nothing keeps a specific individual from lying about their sexuality to manipulate others. Humans have almost infinite imagination in finding ways to get what they want, and while I think it's deplorable (both for what it does to those around them and for how it undermines asexuality as a whole), I can't rule it out as a possibility.

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The truth of the matter is, many sexuals make assumptions on what is considered "part of the bargain" when they marry.

So true. All the talk of "contracts" boils down into that: sexuals feel that they are owed sex by their marriage partners, and are angry when they don't get what they think they're entitled to. Because having sex is "normal", it's talked of as though it were a law of some sort, and the asexual has broken the law (as well as being a liar/manipulator/etc.).

It gets kind of tiresome hearing these complaints. For anyone--sexual, asexual, whatever--if you don't like your marriage and can't achieve a compromise without extreme anger and recriminations and feeling deprived or pressured, then get a divorce. There's no advantage to anyone in remaining in a miserable marriage. Sexuals, find other sexuals if you're terribly unhappy.

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Hm.. I can't put up all of Worm's post, but if someone has a suggestion for an excerpt they'd like to see for the Post of the Week, send me a pm with the suggestion. :)

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Aaargh, my [long] reply here got trashed by a computer glitch at my end :angry:, but here goes with Take 2...

The sexuals who married in good faith, believing that they would share their bodies, along with everything else, with their partners are not stupid. They are just trying to hold up their end of the bargain, and the anti-sex spouses are punishing them for that. That could be one of the cases. I'm not saying that about all asexuals, if there is any such thing. Because, it could very well be an attention getter. Just another tag to be put on a person, so they can get noticed by the news media.

IF YOU CAN PROVE THIS TO BE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I"M SAYING< PLEASE SHOW ME. Where are the doctor's reports. What books are out there, that I can read? Show me proof, that asexuals are not just selfish people. I am saying that I'm sorry in advance, just in case anyone on here, can provide me with some solid proof that there is such a thing as an asexual.

My solid proof is that I'm married to an asexual. My wife has her flaws, but she's not selfish, and she's not out for attention (she's not out to anyone but me, and her asexuality has not led to any positive attention from me, in fact for some time it was the only driver of negatives in our relationship). We both agree that things would be easier without our sexual incompatibility, and we both accept that he have to do work and make sacrifices to keep our relationship strong in spite of it. So we both do work and make sacrifices. It's worth it, and we're happy.

Neither of us uses our sexual incompatibility to control or manipulate the other - we have too much respect for each other for that. But for all that, the sexual incompatibility remains. It's not there as a result of one of us punishing the other, it just is, and we accept it for what it is, and make the best of our lives knowing that they include this incompatibility. For what it's worth our lives are filled with joy, and our relationship is the envy of our friends - we're not just gritting our teeth, but making the very best of what we have, which is pretty damned good.

It's real, just as libido mismatches between sexuals are real, and mutual acceptance is a more productive response than denial in my book.

Any books that you could reccomend would be appreciated.

It's not a book on asexuality, and I don't agree with everything in it, but you might find the following book interesting, even though it's written from the perspective of the woman being the low-drive partner in a couple:

Perfectly Normal: a woman's guide to living with low libido. Dr Sandra Pertot. Rodale/PanMacmillan 2005.

Consider: is it a "need to share" or a "need to get"? Do people feel "deprived" if they are not allowed to share? Or is it more likely they feel "deprived" if they are not getting what they want?

If every time you wanted to share a joke, or interesting conversation, with your partner they replied that they just weren't interested would you feel deprived of intimacy? Of course you would. You may well consider that grounds for terminating the relationship. Would you say that that someone in that situation was selfish for wanting to force conversation on their partner?

The truth of the matter is, many sexuals make assumptions on what is considered "part of the bargain" when they marry. They project their needs on others, assuming all are the same, instead of really getting to understand and appreciate the other person. This is further exemplified when one person starts to wonder if the other person is gay, having an affair, trying to be manipulative, etc. The question I would ask as an outsider is: "How well did you really know the person before you married them if you are starting to question now if they are gay or not??".

It's not that simple. Many of those assumptions are well founded. And people may think that they understand another's needs without assuming they are exactly the same as theirs, but still be subtly mistaken. How well can we ever know another, especially as both observer and observed are constantly changing.

Many asexuals themselves do not understand that what they feel for their partners is not what their sexual partners feel for them. For example at the very start of our relationship, it was my wife that initiated most of our first sexual encounters. Why? Because she was strongly attracted to me, and felt (correctly) that offering sex would show me the depth of her attraction. How was I to magically divine that her actions in offering sex were motivated solely by cultural expectations and not also by sexual attraction? Hell, even she didn't know that.

And for every sexual unknowingly in a relationship with an asexual, many more are in relationships with repressed homosexuals, or partners whose desire has faded due to an affair. Those fears don't just come out of nowhere, they are just a sane response to wider realities. It's reasonable to ask those questions of your own relationship, even if the answers are negative.

If you are adept at understanding your own sexuality, how can you begin to understand the sexuality of others?

I'm going to assume that you meant "not adept" or else that makes no sense at all. But where in Miserable's posts do you get the idea that she does not understand her own sexuality? Such an implication is condescending, unwarranted, and unhelpful.

Can I vote -1 for post of the week?

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If you are adept at understanding your own sexuality, how can you begin to understand the sexuality of others?
I'm going to assume that you meant "not adept" or else that makes no sense at all. But where in Miserable's posts do you get the idea that she does not understand her own sexuality? Such an implication is condescending, unwarranted, and unhelpful.

I would be glad to clarify my general question, if that is what you ask. In return, I could ask you for help in rewording, if you would be so kind. Our mutual civility could go a long way, Mr. Olivier.

If you were to corroborate on a book with much hindsight underneath your belt, what advise would you give to others to identify possible issues of incompatibility? If the reader is adept at understanding his/her own sexuality (and let us assume at this point that they are and the reader is past that point), what should the reader look for in another's sexuality to insure they have what they would consider acceptable compatibility? What needs to be done? In other words, do the hindsighters recommend certain points that should be brought up during conversations? What are the signs? Are there any clues that can be had through observations?

Worm

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Off-topic: I had written an extremely long post when my computer glitch re-occurred and swallowed it again :angry:. Its late, and while I think there was good stuff in the post (trust me on that ;) ) it will have to wait till morning, if at all. At the moment, I'm seriously not happy with my laptop, and it's hard to be furious and thoughtful at the same time. :(

If you are adept at understanding your own sexuality, how can you begin to understand the sexuality of others?
I'm going to assume that you meant "not adept" or else that makes no sense at all. But where in Miserable's posts do you get the idea that she does not understand her own sexuality? Such an implication is condescending, unwarranted, and unhelpful.

I would be glad to clarify my general question, if that is what you ask. In return, I could ask you for help in rewording, if you would be so kind. Our mutual civility could go a long way, Mr. Olivier.

But I must at least reply to this. My assumption that you meant "not adept" was clearly wrong, and as such my accusations that I drew from that were unfounded. My apologies - I had not meant to be uncivil, and the only words I objected to so strongly were words that you did not say, but that I had wrongly assumed.

If you were to corroborate on a book with much hindsight underneath your belt, what advise would you give to others to identify possible issues of incompatibility? If the reader is adept at understanding his/her own sexuality (and let us assume at this point that they are and the reader is past that point), what should the reader look for in another's sexuality to insure they have what they would consider acceptable compatibility? What needs to be done? In other words, do the hindsighters recommend certain points that should be brought up during conversations? What are the signs? Are there any clues that can be had through observations?

Here, the essay from my last attempt at a post will have to be lost. A pity, because it had some worthwhile (at least for me) self-reflection. But the Cliff notes version in point form:

* If anything, I'm over-analytical. This has its downsides, but an upside is that I don't regret much. My general feeling is that in hindsight, I'd say and do the same things over again, because I said and did them for a reason in the first place.

* My wife and I have always been good, open, honest communicators. We're not given to point-scoring, or held back by embarrassment, so conflict is rare and short-lived.

* Our history together is such that at the beginning, neither of us knew of her asexuality. I'm not sure what I could have asked that she could have given me insight on. In the year leading in to our relationship, she'd had two sexual partners to my one, and she initiated most of our early sexual encounters. We had quite an adventurous sex life, motivated in part by her desire to find some aspect of sex that she could enjoy more. But sexuals do the same, so I'm not sure it greater discussion of her motivations would have given either of us any clues.

* Later we had problem periods both with my wife being too accommodating, and me taking her efforts for granted, and with me making sacrifices and my wife not seeing the toll they took on me. So we're sort of square, which helped give us insight, and avoid one-sided blame.

* We struggled with trying to compromise our identities - each trying to become more like the other in an attempt to meet in the middle - and failed at that. The key for us was to accept our different identities, and compromise on behaviour. A subtle difference, but one that was truly important. So I guess that in hindsight starting from a position of total acceptance of the validity of both partners' sexual attitudes could have saved us some tears caused by searching for reasons behind things better accepted as just being what they were.

* The key to our success has been a mutual ability to keep a sense of perspective. We've never lost sight of the fact that our relationship is near-perfect outside of sex. Not everyone is so lucky, but it's helped us knowing that what we have is worth fighting for.

Anyway, it's late, my brain has stopped functioning, and I hope there's something in there of use. I'm sure there were things in the old post that were probably more useful, but they're gone now :( Short summary: even with hindsight, I'd do it all the same way again. But I have a successful relationship, so maybe to get good answers about hindsight you'd need to ask someone who's had a grand failure, or great regrets.

And to miserable: I've been where you are, and I got through it. But that was with the help of my wife, who has always put my interests on a par with her own, as I have tried to do for her. If your relationship is worth fighting for, focus on that, not on the negatives, and convince your partner to do the same.

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  • 2 weeks later...

There was a reason for my husband's strange behavior, here of late. The doctors have found a brain tumor and we are waiting for the pathogology report. They will need to know what kind of treatment will best treat his kind of cancer. We need prayers now more than anything else.

Please, love each other. Show it in everyway that you can. If you are not able to show your love in a sexual way, then you're not, but show how it in everyway that you can, WHILE YOU CAN. If you can show your love sexual even if you don't like it, think of them. If you detest it, then you detest it. I'm only telling you, when it's gone it's gone. There are no second changes in these things. Days turn into years. Make memories. In whatever way you can.

I will try to return to this site and keep you updated on his progress.

Thanks, a lot for your help. God bless.

Really saddened and way more miserable, than before.

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There was a reason for my husband's strange behavior, here of late. The doctors have found a brain tumor and we are waiting for the pathogology report. They will need to know what kind of treatment will best treat his kind of cancer. We need prayers now more than anything else.

Please, love each other. Show it in everyway that you can. If you are not able to show your love in a sexual way, then you're not, but show how it in everyway that you can, WHILE YOU CAN. If you can show your love sexual even if you don't like it, think of them. If you detest it, then you detest it. I'm only telling you, when it's gone it's gone. There are no second changes in these things. Days turn into years. Make memories. In whatever way you can.

I will try to return to this site and keep you updated on his progress.

Thanks, a lot for your help. God bless.

Really saddened and way more miserable, than before.

Wow. That's rough. I'm not sure what to say.

...if you're ever in the Toronto area and need a hug, let me know.

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That is so terrible for you both, it's amazing that you have the ability--and the thoughtfulness--to write to us and tell us about it. You show such courage in facing this. Please let us know how he is and how you are doing. We wish you every bit of luck possible.

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