Origins of Homosexuality

[Rabger]

Joski, the only Christian influences I saw in her morals were the belief in free-will and compassion (for animals).

Christian beliefs teach a compassion for animals? That's odd, because most of the stuff I've seen is the opposite. Meaning, animals have no soul, are inferior and lesser than, and are only here for humans to take advantage of.

For someone who's going to read him for the first time, I would recommend "Beyond Good and Evil" and then "Genealogy of the Morals".

I'll look into it. I've found a good site.

[rhubarb]

But given that homosexuality is mentioned in the bible, we have to accept that it is older than Jesus, and as such tis futile to discuss it only within the context of the last 3000 years and recent adoption of certain religions/beliefs. (as such, Nietzsche is prob useful, since he ignores religion)

I think you would have to look at human evolution and natural history to even come up with theories about this, let alone certainties. Animal studies are interesting, if only because they show sexual diversity free from the constraints of faith...Banobo chimps are, I suppose the most famous libidinous animals, but the thing I find most interesting about their behaviour, is not that they have recreational sex with whoever (of either sex) they feel like at the time, but that the recreational sex they have appears to exert forms of social control* upon the banobo community. So even though they don't have religion, they do have certain expected forms of conduct....and this is the problem I guess with discussing homosexuality in a human context - we can't help but get muddled up about the rules of faith, and older (maybe sexual) methods of social control.

*Just to explain where my thoughts were heading....banobo ladies often indulge in mutual pleasuring. This is not exclusive to any other form of sexual contact (ie, they do still have sex with boy banobos!) but it does appear to exert a bonding influence over the groups of females involved....Its been observed that in the communities where this happens, the males are much less aggressive, and the tentative theory reached from this is that socially bonded groups of female banobos don't take any sh*t from aggressive guys, or else they gang up and studiously ignore him - result? - he doesn't get to breed with anybody :cry: So its not about preventing over population, but it IS about preventing the furthering of 'aggressive' bloodlines and binding communities together.

Course, human sexuality is different again, but I think you have to find some way of explaining why humans tend to view sex as recreation/fun in the first place, before you start to talk about the the various sexual diversities humans display.

As to the rise and rise of instances of homosexuality in humans, I think that ties directly with the gradual loss of power of religion over the masses....as such, you could probably point to Freud, Havelock Eliis, the first world war, the suffragettes/feminist movement, socialism and science as all contributing to the current belief that to understand sex is to understand the self. This of course gives humans the liberty to have as much sex as possible in as many different ways (inc homosexualilty) as possible with a view to understanding their natural selves in a far deeper way than previous cultures of repression have allowed. (I'm not saying that that is not a misapprehension, just that it appears to be the current attitude to sex, certainly in the west.)

As to the current 'mania' about sex, I'd guess that because all this emancipation/liberation is a relatively recent thing (contraceptive pill, womens rights etc) society is undergoing a real fascination with sex(I think mainly because we've got rid of a lot of the unwanted consequences of sex, or like to pretend we have) which as some of you point out in other threads, ain't necessarily all its cracked up to be!

It may not be in our lifetime, but once society has had a good ol sex fest, I'm sure the novelty will wear off, and our scrutiny will fall upon the more diverse shades of sexuality - asexuality to name just one.

[Silly Green Monkey]

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but the sixties had "free love", but in the seventies there was a massive resurgence of 'traditional' values and attitudes about sex. True Love Waits probably came about at this time. We're no longer interested in free love (STD's no doubt), but we are interested in sexuality. So we may be at the beginning of the time you mention.

[PlatonicPimp]

Don't forget the difference between Morality and Ethics. Its a very important distiction, at least for me. As soon as I reasonably understood the difference I vowed to be Amoral but Ethical in all my actions.

[Des]

I'm getting a little tired of this argument, mostly because I don't remember where it started and it seems like at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Also, my reliance on situational ethics (if you steal from me, I'm justified in stealing from you)doesn't make me the most believable source anymore, but I never said I wasn't a hypocrite.

But this is why religion is one of those things you're never supposed to discuss: when it's all over, nobody's going to change what they believe.

[O'Really]

(

Christian beliefs teach a compassion for animals?

You are right regarding animals, the only passage I've seen the bible defending animals was Prov. 12:10 - "A righteous man regards the life of his beast" - and even compassion for people is partial: when they say compassion, the mean compassion for those who "deserve" it, like the poor and the mendicant.)