Is it even possible?

[VivreEstEsperer]

So... yesterday I saw a friend in the library and offered to swipe her into the dining hall so we could have dinner together. She gladly accepted, however, on the way out she saw a friend of hers and started talking to her instead. Now, I find it hard enough to start a conversation with one person, so breaking into a conversation with two other people is nearly impossible for me. And to make things more difficult, what did they start talking about? The other girl's boyfriend, or at least I assume that's who he was. The whole way to the dining hall. Laughing and giggling and "oh my gods!" the whole way there. Sharing a language that I couldn't possibly understand - the language of sexuality. It really, really pissed me off. Both that I was being excluded and that I couldn't join in even if I wanted to or had the skills to. And it was raining, and I would have put my Walkman on except I thought I was actually going to get to talk to my friend. So I just walked a few steps in front of them, miserable and without my music for the duration of the trip. When we got there, I gave my friend a look and said "There's not a whole lot of point to me going to dinner with you if I'm not going to get to talk to you," which is a lot more gutsy than I usually am. She did disentangle herself from her friend to sit with me, but that friend and two of her friends also sat with us, and as I usually sit either by myself or with one other person, that and their noisy conversation overwhelmed me so much that I couldn't regain my composure enough to talk to my friend properly.... and couldn't really think of much to say to her anyway.

So, two things. 1) Was my friend rude to start talking with her other friend and exclude me? I guess most people are expected to join in... What would you have done in that situation??

and 2)...

it seems like all anyone wants to do is talk about sex!

Do you think it's even possible to have decent conversations or friendships with people if you don't have an interest in sex in common? Because it really seems like all anyone wants to talk about and it's driving me crazy! It seems like they can talk about nothing else, and even if they can, it's only for a few min or they don't know the topic in depth or... it just seems like not speaking the "language of sexuality" is such a big roadblock that I don't even see how it's possible to form decent friendships with anyone. It's like you're always gonna be "on the outskirts" if you don't share this.

I know this isn't the only reason why I find friendships hard but it seems like the biggest reason. What do you think, can it be overcome?

Kate

[Friendly]

OK. I know just how you feel. I've been talking to friends, then they just dinked out and started talking to someone else. Usually, I just let it slide. This may sound sad, but I'm kinda used to being ignored and passed over some. If the conversation goes on to sex, sometimes I listen in. I don't want or need sex, but I am kind of curious. To be perfectly honest, it was from listening to a conversation between some of my friends, and butting in at a certain point, that I found out exactly what a douche is, besides a shower in France. Not that I'd ever use (much less need) a douche, but I still wanted to know. This may sound wierd, but it was a guy who told me. Of course, the same guy also directed a production of The Vagina Monologues at our school.

Anyway. Yes, Kate, it was rude of your friend to talk sex with other friends and leave you out, especially when you went through the trouble of getting her into the dining hall. What would I have done? I would have listened until I heard something I didn't know what it was, and asked for a definition.

I think that the sex barrier CAN be overcome. There was a time when I couldn't really deal with sex talk and other stuff. I'm OK with it now, and I can even participate. I think part of the reason I can somewhat participate in talk about sex is because of some of the books I've read over the years. For instance: one of the summer reading books I read for high school was The Stories of Eva Luna by Isabel Allende. There was quite a bit of sex involved in that book. Since I've been at college, I've done a little more literary exploring. I've mentioned them before, but I've also read Anne Rice's Exit to Eden and the first two books in her Sleeping Beauty trilogy. Those books taught me stuff I never knew before about sex in general, including S&M. I still get shut out of conversations between my sexual friends, but I don't really care. I respect their sexuality and they respect my lovely sex-free lifestyle, and most everything's good.

[VivreEstEsperer]

Thanks for your reply, Friendly. I'm not even talking so much about sex as just relationships and attraction - how do you break into a conversation where all the other people are doing is saying how hot they think so and so is or talking about who's dating so and so or who they'd like to date? That doesn't involve any terms I don't know, just feelings I don't know.

[aury]

1) Was my friend rude to start talking with her other friend and exclude me? I guess most people are expected to join in... What would you have done in that situation??

yes, it was. in high school, when banshee used to veer off & flirt w/ other guys & one of us in the group was in mid-sentence, we'd just keep walking & she'd have to catch up. at times, we STILL do that now. i suggest you take a similar approach.

2)...

it seems like all anyone wants to do is talk about sex!

Do you think it's even possible to have decent conversations or friendships with people if you don't have an interest in sex in common? Because it really seems like all anyone wants to talk about and it's driving me crazy! It seems like they can talk about nothing else, and even if they can, it's only for a few min or they don't know the topic in depth or... it just seems like not speaking the "language of sexuality" is such a big roadblock that I don't even see how it's possible to form decent friendships with anyone. It's like you're always gonna be "on the outskirts" if you don't share this.

I know this isn't the only reason why I find friendships hard but it seems like the biggest reason. What do you think, can it be overcome?

there's always gonna be that certain amount of distance between an asexuals & sexuals, it doesn't matter how close they are. at times, my friends tell me about stuff they've done, when they know i'm uncomfortable hearing it. however, i guess they feel they can confide about this sort of thing to me, seeing as how i'm an objective person & tend to listen (when i'm not tuning them out). if your friend was really your friend, she'd respect you enough to at least acknowledge you when she's talking to someone else. that kind of shit is fucking rude otherwise. :evil: also, if she had any respect for you at all, she'd at least have the fucking decency to keep that kind of shit at a toned down pitch inside of the hyena-fucking screech she was communicating in.

[Davey]

I think friendly's right, Kate - about the last bit:

I still get shut out of conversations between my sexual friends, but I don't really care. I respect their sexuality and they respect my lovely sex-free lifestyle, and most everything's good

I get the same thing with my friends - about sex, certainly (look at [insert passing female]'s [insert part of anatomy here]!), but also - and perhaps this is a better example - about drugs. Many of my friends are die-hard stoners - they swear that 'cannabis' is 'ambrosia' spelled wrong (same number of letters, at least!). My personal beliefs dictate that I haven't and won't try it - but I respect their opinions, I don't judge them, and consequently, they don't judge me. I'm sure if they knew I was asexual, they'd respect that too. I have good friends.

But back to your life.. I do think she was rude to exclude you, although I assume she doesn't know about your asexuality. If she does, then she was extremely rude.

I also think you're right about people's obsession with sex - it can be a huge roadblock on the road (bad structure.. sue me) to friendship. Remember that most sexuals can't understand how we live without the desire for sex, let alone the act. They're hardwired so that it's the first priority - generally. Now I'm getting all misanthropic.. Okay. Back to solutions: I think, like friendly, that it can definitely be overcome - one just needs to find the right sort of friend!

I love your username, by the way.. to live is to hope - very nice. I don't think I've told you that.

That's my experience, and my take on yours - don't forget to tip your waitresses!

--davidey

[cijay]

I think it was really rude of your friend...and of the other two, like you said, all of a sudden you didn't exist anymore. I think the topic of conversation may as well have been about sex or ANYthing because you weren't obviously to be included in it anyway. I'm the same as you in that I prefer it to be one on one and if there are a group, I prefer to be talking with just one person in the group.

I was out with my friend at a bar and we were chatting, a mutual friend came over and plunked his ass down and they talked for about 45 minutes about football. Not only was there nowhere for me to go, nobody for me to talk to but...I couldn't have added into the conversation even if I HAD felt welcome to.

That's actually how I feel when I'm out with someone and their cell phone rings. It's just the same as someone coming along, plunking their ass down between my friend and I and engaging in a conversation with their back to me.

[Icarus]

So, two things. 1) Was my friend rude to start talking with her other friend and exclude me?

A little bit of talking I wouldn't consider rude, but excluding you--yes that was definitely rude. Some people just don't use their brains it seems.

I guess most people are expected to join in...

But of course most people have no concept of the fact that not everybody has the same personality and not everybody coverses in the same way. If you're anything like I am, I take it your idea of conversing is to have meaningful and enlightening conversation one-on-one or one-on-few with people who can contribute equally because of a similar interest. And like me, your idea of "kicking back" and "hanging out" probably isn't the same as most others' which is sitting around combined with drink, dope, mind-numbing yapping about stupid things (but I think this one is OK in moderation), mind-numbing yapping related to experiences and flirtation with the S word (yeah that word :evil:).

What would you have done in that situation??

It would depend on what mood I was in, and their "case history" with similar situations. If it had happened a few times before and I were in a bad mood I'd get up and leave, maybe with a parting "I have nothing to contribute here, sorry." They might think I'm being a but rude but whoop-di-friggin-do: rudeness begets rudeness sometimes. Most likely I would just ignore them: if they want me to be part of any conversation, they can involve me in it. I don't bother trying to keep breaking into coversations most of the time. Maybe once or twice if it's something I'm interested in and want to talk about too, but that's all. If I'm not involved in a conversation from the get-go, forget about it. There are exceptions of course. On the flip-side, if I'm in a conversation with at least two others I tend to make sure each person is equally involved: if I end up talking to just Person A a couple minutes and it looks like the other person(s) wants to be part of it, I'll be sure to talk to them too, especially if Person A isn't.

One of the most noteworthy times I was in a being-shut-of-conversation situation was a couple years ago when some people I knew from an internet discussion forum planned a meetup and wanted me to be part of it. In short, I was largely ignored the whole time. This whole meetup was only about the rest of them from the get-go. To make things worse, I had driven several hours each way to be there. To make it even worse, it (of course) was brought up on the forum later that day and I got no more than a "so-and-so was there too". This was one of the more hurtful things I've experienced in my life, and also why I'm exceedingly leery of such get-togethers now. For potential AVEN meet-ups, consider this all a big warning.

This:

When we got there, I gave my friend a look and said "There's not a whole lot of point to me going to dinner with you if I'm not going to get to talk to you," which is a lot more gutsy than I usually am.

Nice. :) *thumbs-up*

and 2)...

it seems like all anyone wants to do is talk about sex! Do you think it's even possible to have decent conversations or friendships with people if you don't have an interest in sex in common?

Possible, yeah. The last friend I had (before he dropped off the face of the earth two months ago) was very much sexual and had some habits *cough*stoner*cough* I could get frustrated with but we had a few funamental interests in common and had plenty to talk about. And another person I regularly hung out with a lot several years ago was even more so and we didn't have that much common interest but there was still a lot we could talk about.

[Skiddaloxx]

For example, I only feel uncomfortable if the sex convo is directed towards me, if people ask me out, etc..It's because I'm afraid they'll look at me strangely or laugh at me when I tell them that I have never had any sexual experience. But that's sort of a Janusface, because sometimes I feel the other way round: superspecial because I'm a and pushing it in their faces.

Generally, I like talking about sex with a tongue-in-cheek attitude. Making dirty jokes and stuff, you know! Frinstens yesterday two friends and I were talking about sex stores, and the bizarre stuff they sell. Of course I couldn't stop laughing! So if a conversation about sex is kept general then it's something I enjoy.

[Autumn]

hmm im not sure your friend was being rude... it often happens that as your walking with someone you see someone else you know and invite them to join the conversation, the more the merrier and all that.... i would have thought it more rude to completely ignore the other person. As for having a conversation that you cant join in with.... - i just let my thoughts drift and enjoy their company until the discussion moves to something im more comfortable expressing an opinion on.

As for the everyone talking about sex thing... yeah sometimes it seems that way, the conversations between my friends are mainly uni stuff, sex, sports we are into and the occasional discussion of current affairs.

usually when people are talking about thier boyfriends i can relate simply by thinking of their relationship as an intense friendship... i can feel happy for my friends when things are going well and bad when things arent, without necessarily connecting it with sex. if that makes sense.

but yes, when it comes to the real sex talk, not the gossip about other people but the actual mechanisms of it etc... then i generally feel excluded, thankfully that only usually happens when they are drunk though and i can happily ignore them then.

[Friendly]

Hey, Vivre. Relationships? Eeewww! Seriously, sometimes I just listen in out of curiosity, the rest of the time I dive into a book or go to class or go get lunch or something else. If someone you were having a conversation with is ignoring you but you have other options, I say take advantage of those other options ASAP. Of course, if the discussion you were having was important (at least to you), the butt right in and let the third party involved see how it feels. Rude, but necessary.

Icarus, I love your signature. Where'd you find that?

[fluffy_hime]

1) Not necessarily. Most people assume that everyone has learned how to speak up in a group of two or three other people, considering most of us have been through the traditional school system of 15-30 students. I would say it really depends on the situation. If you had not seen your friend for 6 months, then yes it was rude. If you had just seen her yesterday, then no it wasn't rude, unless she pointedly ignored you for extended periods of time.

2) Find some non-bimbo friends that talk about intelligent things besides sex. My friends & I rarely talk about sex, or even relationships. And when we do talk about relationships, it doesn't bother me now that I know I'm a (before I thought I was missing out on something vital), and even when they bring up sex itself, like in passing (e.g. "I had to go off birth control because of headaches"), they respect me enough not to go into any detail.

[yam]

In defense of the sexuals - There are still sexuals out there who are able to carry on conversations for long periods of time without discussions of sex or things related to sex. I don't know how you make friends with these people but most of my friends conversations don't revolve around sex.

However, your friends behavior was rude. You had specifically invited her to have dinner with you and offered her meal. She accepted and should have quickly talked to her friend but then went with you to eat.

Wish I had some snappy words of advice but I don't. I guess if you could figure out how to do it you could try to divert the conversation from sexual topics to something that was more interesting for all parties involved. Though this is always easier said than done.

[Icarus]

Icarus, I love your signature. Where'd you find that?

http://asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic...&start=30

Somebody sent that to me in an email a long time ago. I've always gotten a laugh out of it.

[mcsquared]

Thanks for your reply, Friendly. I'm not even talking so much about sex as just relationships and attraction - how do you break into a conversation where all the other people are doing is saying how hot they think so and so is or talking about who's dating so and so or who they'd like to date? That doesn't involve any terms I don't know, just feelings I don't know.

Even if you can't feel it personally, you can root for your friends to "win". Getting matched up seems like a competition half the time anyway and there are those that get caught up in the action, those that just pay attention to final score and those that couldn't care less who wins. (my team just lost--*sob*)

[VivreEstEsperer]

Thanks for all your advice. To her defense, she's really not ditzy.... if she was I wouldn't have the little bit of friendship with her that I do. I can understand WHY she did what she did, and why she'd want to talk about such things, I'm just at a loss at what *I'm* supposed to do.

Let's see... I think we "bonded" or became friends at least to the level that I actually have friends because we discovered we both liked country music. we were both in the same class. And she's a genuinely nice person, and has a great sense of humor, and is just enough more mature than most of the other students that I can actually talk to her - by that I mean that, with me at least, she usually *doesnt* go on about sex and that stuff, she's interested in other stuff. It's hard to do anything with her though, she lives off campus and I only see her when she's in the library. Our contacts are basically limited to convos in the library, the very occasional dinner together, and the occasional her giving me a ride to the airport.

I don't know what to talk to her about, though. I mean, I can talk about country music, I can talk about the latest singles on the radio and singers we both mutually like, but somehow that seemed really inadequate in the fact of all the exciting relationship talk she was getting just a few min ago...it seemed...boring. Nobody is really interested in what I'm interested in - they can pretend to be for a short time but they're really not - how do you go about finding friendships with people when no one really shares your interests? It's awfully frustrating.

It's just reallly frustrating. Makes it easier to just not try.... and I don't think she'd really miss me if i didn't make an effort to contact her, truthfully...I don't think I have that kind of "power" in the friendship - with anyone, really.

So why bother trying?

Kate

[Jayann]

(my team just lost--*sob*)

...What a co-inky-dink. My team just won. :D

[mcsquared]

Nobody is really interested in what I'm interested in - they can pretend to be for a short time but they're really not - how do you go about finding friendships with people when no one really shares your interests? It's awfully frustrating. .

So why bother trying?

Hmm...sounds like this is going beyond being asexual and getting into friendship and how to make small talk. Sometimes that's a personality clicking thing but if you're an introvert, then it's harder. I've heard good things about the book "How to Make Friends and Influence People" and there are several books on making small talk, which is a skill you can practice. In the end though if you have to think up topics of conversations with this person, it's going to be forced and you won't be comfortable so just relax and smile. After all there are 5 billion other people in the world that could also be potential friends...

[fluffy_hime]

More like 6.5 billion.

Kate, if you're comfortable being alone, then don't bother trying. If it does bother you and you do want friends, then I'd suggest you work on your social relations, but don't ask me how!

[Cate Perfect]

I don't mind sexuals talking about sex--they like it so it's going to come up. It IS annoying if that's all they seem able to talk about, but my sexual friends usually want to talk about other things so I'm not around many people whose sole concern is the naked mambo.

And there is no excuse for the girl going to lunch with you and then talking about something you had no way of joining in about. That's just rude.

Cate

[Des]

y'know, it doesn't come up very often.

Of course, most of my friends have taken the 'virgin until marriage' vow, and I tend to keep company with the guys who couldn't get laid to save their lives.

When it does come up, the discussion goes the way you've seen me do it here: we try to stick to medical terms so nobody gets embarrassed.

I've never dealt with someone discussing sex with their partner...I didn't know that actually happened outside sitcoms.

I am a rock.

I am an iiiiiiiiisland.

[LostDaemon]

I've never dealt with someone discussing sex with their partner...I didn't know that actually happened outside sitcoms.

It happens - sometimes during the act, even, although laughing or cracking jokes can sometimes ruin the 'mood'. I think it's a necessary part of any relationship where sexual activity is to be involved - between two sexuals or a sexual and their willing, but asexual partner (like me and LS). Good communication about all things - and sex is one of those things that can just go completely wrong and horrible and screw up everything...one reason why asexuality is better for my mental health!

If only it was as amusing as on sitcoms...

-LD

[VivreEstEsperer]

Fluffy, no one asked you to tell me or anyone else how to do anything! It was completely your choice to even read this post or not. It was your choice to reply. You had no obligation.

This is a support site by nature. I was simply asking for support and/or advice on something that has puzzled me for a long time. I thought perhaps someone could supply the "magic piece" that has eluded me all this time, or at least someone could understand. That's all I was looking for. If we're not here to support each other, then what are we here for? If you don't want to respond, then don't. But don't tell me what I should or should not ask people to do - don't make me feel guilty for simply asking for help.

Kate

[mcsquared]

Fluffy, no one asked you to tell me or anyone else how to do anything!

Um, I think she meant it in the sense she didn't know how to advise you on this particular aspect, not in an antagonistic sense...

[Cate Perfect]

Yeah, Kate, it's hard to 'hear' a person's tone on the internet, but I'm pretty sure Fluffy just meant she didn't know how to help you out on that particular aspect.

Cate

[fluffy_hime]

Yes, yes, it seems I have come across other than I intended. I'm sorry if I offended you, Kate. This is how this sentence should read: "If it does bother you and you do want friends, then I'd suggest you work on your social relations, but don't ask me how! [chuckle, implying I don't know how either]"

Mayhaps I should be more free in my use of smileys. All I meant was, if you're comfortable not having many friends and being alone (as I am), then that's a good thing and you shouldn't stress out over it. But if you did want to obtain more friends, I'm sure there are ways to go about it, I just don't know how.

Sorry for any confusion.

[Des]

>steps out of the blowbye<

Catfight narrowly avoided.

Too bad, it would've been fun to watch. :twisted:

I am such a jerk.

[fluffy_hime]

I would have thought that here, of all places, men would not hope for a "catfight."

[Guest]

Nah, they just look forward to it for a different reason. ;)

[mindlife]

This individual's behavior was rude. I don't really know if she was being consciously exclusionary or not.

I believe, though, it is necessary to explain to her

1. that the direction the conversation took was rude, and

2. explain why it was rude.

You are an asexual and can't connect with the discourse or world of the conversation.

I've talked to various sexual people for years, and I can hear when they're commenting or sighing quietly when an attractive someone or other passes by. These are almost like ticks to me. But they've never started a conversation about how hot someone is. They seem to understand intuitively that that's always beyond my scope.

I think I've been fortunate.

[Des]

lemme clarify: I like watching ANYBODY fight. That way I can do stuff to mess with both sides.