Allo with an ace friend - I think I'm coming at this from the opposite angle...

[CenterMike]

15 hours ago, Mrs Telecaster-to-be said:

humans are nothing if not diverse in the ways they experience connection

If that doesn't sum up what I've been learning and trying to decipher for months I don't know what does. We got together today for a while. I can't speak for her, but I know I feel that keeping the status quo is probably better than any other option. Updates to follow, I suppose.

[Mountain House]

45 minutes ago, CenterMike said:

... having that knowledge ...

Might be time for you and your two loves to research polyamory, because it sounds to me that you are there.

[Sally]

20 hours ago, CenterMike said:

But...what if both of us are feeling more than we're admitting? Do I address it? Or keep on and enjoy being "just friends" and follow our boundaries. I

Of course you address it.  Otherwise, you won't be "just friends" and you'd be lying to yourselves and to each other. You also address it with your wife.  And I think I said several days ago that it sounds to me like you're in love with her, and I've had experience with how that feels (since my partner and I fell in love while we were both still married). So I and Ceebs and possibly others don't really "hear" your feelings to be those of a friend only.  

[Mountain House]

1 minute ago, Sally said:

possibly others

Yep.

[CenterMike]

21 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

you and your two loves to research polyamory

Yeah...that's been on my mind some. Basically the first thing I did was let Ann know I had these feelings. Ann came to where Courtney, our friend group and I hang out last week and kissed me a few times and no one seemed uncomfortable. I feel better letting things be for a little while though.

[Ceebs]

Yes being in a relationship with someone you genuinely have feelings for does not preclude falling in love with other people. Of course, it can mean different things for different people. Sometimes you're just in love with two people, end of. Sometimes (like in my case previously) it means something important is missing from the relationship you're currently in, and if that's true it's important to address that reality and what it means for the future of that relationship and where you take things with the other person and where you set firm boundaries. In my previous marriage, someone else offered an emotional intensity and sexual connection that were lacking. In the relationship I had after my marriage, another someone else (my fiancé now) offered me a deep friendship and emotional connection that was strong without having any element of unhealthy intensity. I do believe that for some people -- again, since we're a diverse bunch -- we can have multiple connections that feel like nothing is really missing from any of them and that's where you get into polyamory and the like, and that works just fine for some of us as long as everyone involved is on board and no one is lying to themselves or anyone else. 
 

I can and do get excited about new friendships, it's a real thing. I don't linger on every little interaction and question what it means and where anything is going with the other person though, because there's nothing to (over)analyse and question and I just know in my gut that I feel nothing besides friendship feelings. 
 

It's good that it sounds like you truly are being open with your wife. Just make sure that as you figure out your own feelings, if there's more stuff coming up that she deserves to know, you're not hiding that from her. Or hiding from yourself, to the extent that that's even possible. I certainly know what denial is like.

[Mountain House]

11 hours ago, CenterMike said:

Yeah...that's been on my mind some.

You (all) can read Opening Up free by creating an account.

 

11 hours ago, CenterMike said:

I feel better letting things be for a little while though.

The longer things go unsaid the more the individual understandings diverge the larger the bomb. Defuse with open honest transparent communication. 

 

👆 Everything she said.

[CenterMike]

On 11/15/2024 at 10:37 AM, Mountain House said:

 

The longer things go unsaid the more the individual understandings diverge the larger the bomb. Defuse with open honest transparent communication. 

 

I think Ann might be willing. I think she understands that I need someone to share my hobbies with and that she isn't that person, even though she fulfills all my other needs. She also understands I connect and feel more at ease with women. She also knows how I feel about Courtney; emotionally more than a friend. Courtney, however...It seems like the less I try to explain (I do it poorly and it probably looks like it physically causes me pain sometimes when I try, lol) and just let things be "organic" when we share time. Time is coming to an end for her extra duties at work, but in an unexpected plot twist I offered her a somewhat autonomous part-time position at my business. It's only a couple hours a week. We discussed it's not hang out play time and I really do need the help it's it's a position I REALLY have to trust the person for. It's supposed to start in Jan or when she feels she can start based on her current schedule. It's honestly not because I want to see her more, but it is an added benefit. Ever since we had to "reel things in" I noticed it takes a bit for us to get warmed up when we hang out. Maybe this will make that easier. She makes her own schedule and I don't need to be in her proximity for her to get stuff done. ALSO...my adult daughter that has been living abroad is coming home in Jan for about 6 weeks. She originally filled that position so she will be able to help Courtney. My daughter has been my advocate and "gets" my eccentricities and my hobbies and kind of acts as a go between me and Ann sometimes. I've also given her the less intense, short version of Courtney and I and she approves. Saw Courtney Friday for quite a while Friday, we had an event at my shop followed by everyone hanging out after to watch the Tyson fight(?). I asked her to stop by so we could discuss that business proposition. She chose Friday even though it was a late day for her. She stayed til midnight surprisingly. Things were very casual mainly due to the amount of people around but it was good. Things were a little more close on Sunday, but it got cut short. I really wish Sunday hadn't been interrupted I think it would have been a good time to talk and it felt like she wanted to spend some quality time together. We are supposed to watch a movie Wed or Thurs. I think her work schedule changed so we shall see. As always wish me luck.

[Ceebs]

1 hour ago, CenterMike said:

Ever since we had to "reel things in" I noticed it takes a bit for us to get warmed up when we hang out. Maybe this will make that easier.

Depending on what the goal is here though, and what 'warmed up' actually entails, easier may not be where things should be headed? I'm genuinely not saying one way or the other since all of this depends on the honest feelings, needs and wants of three people (you, Ann, Courtney), and if it turns out you're going to try for some sort of polyamorous thing of course there's nothing wrong with that, but you did say you had to reel things in. Has something changed where you no longer have to do so?

[CenterMike]

19 hours ago, Mrs Telecaster-to-be said:

what 'warmed up' actually entails and  had to reel things in

So warming up for us is sometimes the first part of the time we hang out is very casual and small-talkish then after a bit depending on our moods we'll get more playful and talk about stuff a little more excitedly. "Reeling things in" occurred when our mutual friend called out our relationship as possibly inappropriate. He accused me of being predatory and instead of confronting me he talked with Courtney. Even though our families knew we had this relationship and we had talked about the fact it was no ones business we still agreed to "reel it in" to avoid alienating our mutual friends. Yes, the chemistry was so thick it scared grown men. We're both ADHD which is probably why we click so well. We stim each other with ideas and media and experiences etc. Since then there are flashes of that chemistry occasionally. We actually hung out today for about 5 hours. She helped with some work tasks I had and we watched a movie after. The only real goal for me is to nurture a long close friendship. But the difficult part is sometimes things feel like we want things to be much closer but we're both too chicken, too confused or too protective of this friendship we enjoy to risk putting that out there.

[CenterMike]

@Mrs Telecaster-to-beWhat I want to say to Courtney is to remind her of our intense chemistry we had this summer and ask if she's ever had that before...and if she says no, I want to ask if she's felt like she's been in love before. From there I guess I should ask if she thinks we fell in love platonically. (is that a thing?) I dunno...it feels really passive. I really don't know what I'm doing. Ann is okay with Courtney and I being close friends. I told her about how I feel intense emotions for Courtney and she is okay with it as long as I come home to her bed. Do I risk asking Courtney if her feelings are stronger than that of close friends...or intimate friends and risk maybe alienating her and our friendship that I absolutely love but I kind of suffer because maybe it's more to me? and I suspect it could be more to her. Courtney is more of a let things happen organically person, but I think we are both holding back. I've never felt so vulnerable and indecisive as I do now. This Tuesday might be an opportunity to discuss this with her. I truly embody my little avatar. 

On 11/14/2024 at 10:54 PM, Sally said:

I've had experience with how that feels (since my partner and I fell in love while we were both still married)

@SallyHow did that play out, if I may ask? did it break up the marriages? I'm really scared. I don't want that. I feel like I'm risking two really beautiful relationships for the possibility one new one. Why is this so hard?

[unicornia]

I feel like I have to respond to this thread as some of your comments make me a bit uneasy. And I would feel very uncomfortable if I were in Courtney’s shoes.  

From most of your posts I get the sense that you are falling in love and long for something more, but because it’s not something you really want to or are in the position to explore, you are partly denying these feelings and projecting them on your friend to feel better about it (and totally obsessing). Nowhere do I get the impression that Courtney is unsure about her feelings and want there to be more, but every single of your posts are reeking of it.
 

To me it seems like Courtney sometimes withdraws because she’s picking up mixed signals on your end, and whenever you are just normal and hanging out and don’t have this need and desire to define things and know for sure (whether or not you actually speak to her about it or not), making things weird, she can relax again. In some of your recent posts it seems like you are building on and adding fuel to a kind of desire or daydream that you can open your marriage and finally explore and deepen your relationship with Courtney, that you for some reason think (wish, hope) are mutual. It really sounds like you want her to have these feelings, not that you are scared that she might (though you seem a bit scared of your own feelings). 
 

I think you need to take a moment and be really honest with yourself about what you are feeling. You! No “we”, no what you think or wonder (seemingly hope) Cortney is feeling. Simply your feelings towards Courtney. Married people fall in love all the time without necessarily wanting to act on those feelings (or actually acting on them even if a part of them want to), it wouldn’t make you a bad person. But you need to be honest with yourself or this could quickly turn into a mess. Especially as you seem to have this delusion that your feelings are mutual with no proof whatsoever, and that if only it wasn’t for your marriage you two could be some kind of couple. You risk losing a marriage AND a close friendship without there being anything else on the other end if this goes too far unchecked. 
 

I’m aroace and have ADHD. Some of my friendships, especially with other people (both men and women) with ADHD can be and seem quite intense as there’s just this amazing chemistry, and things flow and I just want to hang out with and talk with and “pick the brain” of, reeaally get to know, and to some extent be physically close to the person. But I have never ever felt a sexual or romantic attraction. I don’t want to cuddle, I don’t want to build a life with the other person where the two of us is this thing, a unit, I’m not obsessing over the person the way you are doing here, and I’m definitely not interested in sex. 

 

I have been in a couple of great friendships I thought were uncomplicated, where the other person was in a committed relationship and swore they only had platonic feelings. But then they started to make things weird, and I would begin to doubt their (lack of romantic or sexual) feelings and withdraw. I have had situations that seem similar to this, where the other person builds up this idea of us being something “more” and every little thing I do or say is taken as confirmation of their delusions of my feelings, and that this has to be different from all the other close friendships I’ve had in my life. I’ve had to distance myself because I do not want to give them a false hope or impression that there could ever be anything more than a friendship, although a close and times “ intense” one, and these days I’m a lot more careful and cautious about how I might come off and how signals can be wrongly interpreted (even if I’m super clear about the fact I’m aroace, but falling in love seem to make people unable to see reality clearly) than I used to be when I was younger. 

 

For some reason this mainly seem to happen with heterosexual men, less so with women, even when they are into women themselves. I don’t know if it’s because male-male friendships often tend to be less “emotionally deep”, as in it seems to be less common to talk about and share your feelings and internal life and being vulnerable with each other than female-female friendships. And it might be easier to confuse this kind of intimacy in a friendship for something else when you are less used to it or have only had similar intimacy in sexual or romantic relationships. 

 

[Ceebs]

On 11/25/2024 at 3:08 AM, CenterMike said:

@SallyHow did that play out, if I may ask? did it break up the marriages? I'm really scared. I don't want that. I feel like I'm risking two really beautiful relationships for the possibility one new one. Why is this so hard?

I can't speak for Sally because I know absolutely nothing about the circumstances of her marriage or the beginning of her relationship with her partner, but if you feel like you're risking something... you may well be risking something. Is it worth it? As I previously mentioned, I've fallen for someone else while in a relationship twice (two different ones, not the same relationship). Yes, following my feelings in any way was risking the relationships I already had. As it turns out they weren't the right relationships anyway, one is better as a close friendship and the other one was extremely unhealthy and needed to end anyway, but I don't know what's true for you. My life isn't yours, Sally's life isn't yours, the circumstances and people involved are all different.

 

Be honest and realistic with yourself about what you're risking, and what outcomes you'd be ok with. 

[nanogretchen4]

Given that you clearly have very intense feelings for Courtney, which she might not reciprocate, I am uncomfortable about a possible power imbalance between you. It seems like you work together, and I don't know for sure that you are higher up in the business than she is, but even if you are on the same level she can't really avoid seeing you on a regular basis assuming she needs the job.

 

In your first post, you mentioned that someone in your friend group thought your relationship with Courtney was "predatory." For me this raises questions about what perceived power difference your friend saw between you and Courtney. Is it just that you are the one who is married? Are you a lot older than her? Do you have a lot more money and social influence? And is there some reason you haven't mentioned why people talk about Courtney as if she were fragile? Regardless, Courtney seems worried that your behavior threatens or at least complicates her other friendships.

 

It just seems like between work entanglement and friend group entanglement, Courtney is not free to make a clean break with you without abandoning both her job and her friend group. And she may also be worried about how her working conditions and social life will be affected if you get upset with her. 

 

And now you have made plans to hire her and become her employer, even if on a very part time basis. 

[Olallieberry]

On 10/29/2024 at 1:43 PM, Olallieberry said:

here's how I personally think you should approach it.

 

Play dumb.

 

[CenterMike]

16 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

In your first post, you mentioned that someone in your friend group thought your relationship with Courtney was "predatory." For me this raises questions about what perceived power difference your friend saw between you and Courtney. Is it just that you are the one who is married? Are you a lot older than her? Do you have a lot more money and social influence? And is there some reason you haven't mentioned why people talk about Courtney as if she were fragile? Regardless, Courtney seems worried that your behavior threatens or at least complicates her other friendships.

Yup, I'm the only one married. A little older - She's 30's & I'm 40's. She visits me at my work. She has total control over our time together. She will kinda go out of her way to spend time with me. I have no influence over her other than letting her know I enjoy her company. As far as her fragility - she's socially awkward and hard for most people to interact with for more than a few minutes from my observations. I've never really seen anyone with adhd like she has with her ability to change topics etc so often. It's like a pop culture quiz speed round from 80's movies, to video games, to art styles, to D&D. We have had 8 hour conversations before and when people attempt to join they last about 3 minutes and walk away.  I call her fragile because I can literally see the change in her demeanor and posture if someone has reached the end of their interest in a conversation with her. Her eyes and face cast downwards. She thinks for a moment then will fidget and will either sit quietly or come over to see what I'm up to. She says things don't bother her, but I can see the burden of things flash across her face. We were friends pretty much immediately upon meeting, but it took a couple months of listening to her and really hearing her and observing her body language to kind of figure her out. Some of my regulars made comments about how awkward and slightly annoying she is. But after spending some time with her it was kind of like re-learning a language I hadn't used in a very long while and after connecting I reazlized there's a lot we have in common in our interests, sense of humor and how we interact with people. I was just as awkward but I've been purposefully working on it for a couple decades or so. The only friendships she has I know about is one long-distance online/social media best friend, a couple of online friends she plays multiplayer games with and one of those is in our friend group occassionally around once a month. She's had issues with going out with people from her work. There was at least one guy that was really coming on strong. So she doesn't do anything with her peers after work anymore. If she does come to work for me I made it clear that I can't be bugging her during work time. There's a time for play. She'd be essentially autonomous. I have some reports I need help getting done on time and some other minor tasks like just keeping receipts and the office itself in order. I'll have a list of tasks and when they are due and once she's comfortable with what I need she won't need me so there isn't any working side-by-side long term. I even offered her access without me there if she needs it but she declined. I do my best to always make it abundantly clear the "ball is always in her court" when it comes to our relationship. Oh...our mutual chemistry literally scared a grown man into confront her and when she defended  me and we wanted to talk to him about it together he then told us both to do whatever we wanted he didn't want to hear about it. She has stated she also feels an undefinable connection.

[CenterMike]

On 11/30/2024 at 3:32 PM, Olallieberry said:

here's how I personally think you should approach it.

 

Play dumb.

UPDATE: So after sorting myself out a bit and spending some more time with Courtney...everything is on a nice platonic path. I learned some things about myself, my relationships, my feelings, and listened to (read) a lot of posts and a lot of advice.  My wife is happy I have a friend that doesn't damage our relationship, Courtney is happy I'm not pushing for more, I'm happy she's not pushing for more. My two "loves" as someone said, help me feel complete in their own way, be it romantic or platonic and I feel balanced because of them.  This forum has been amazing. Thank you all! @nanogretchen4@Mrs Telecaster-to-be@unicornia@Mountain House@Sally@Sarah-Sylvia@Karret@petunia.the.plant@CassIsSarcastic

[Karret]

57 minutes ago, CenterMike said:

UPDATE: So after sorting myself out a bit and spending some more time with Courtney...everything is on a nice platonic path. I learned some things about myself, my relationships, my feelings, and listened to (read) a lot of posts and a lot of advice.  My wife is happy I have a friend that doesn't damage our relationship, Courtney is happy I'm not pushing for more, I'm happy she's not pushing for more. My two "loves" as someone said, help me feel complete in their own way, be it romantic or platonic and I feel balanced because of them.  This forum has been amazing. Thank you all! @nanogretchen4@Mrs Telecaster-to-be@unicornia@Mountain House@Sally@Sarah-Sylvia@Karret@petunia.the.plant@CassIsSarcastic

So happy to hear things have worked out!! 8D <33333

[CenterMike]

12 hours ago, Karret said:

So happy to hear things have worked out!! 8D <33333

Thanks! It's been nearly a year long journey that has felt much, much longer.

[Karret]

13 minutes ago, CenterMike said:

Thanks! It's been nearly a year long journey that has felt much, much longer.

I can imagine. Glad you've reached the end and it's such a good place to be! 8D ❤️

[CenterMike]

UPDATE! We continue to hang out. All parties are still aware of each other...well, Courtney doesn't share so much about me I guess. We chatted all evening NYE and spent the evening together on Jan 1st. It was friendly and intimate. She's my best friend!

[CenterMike]

On 1/5/2025 at 1:04 AM, CenterMike said:

UPDATE! We continue to hang out. All parties are still aware of each other...well, Courtney doesn't share so much about me I guess. We chatted all evening NYE and spent the evening together on Jan 1st. It was friendly and intimate. She's my best friend!

UPDATE 1/29! Friends for 1 year as per discord's date. She's difficult, I'm emotional. She's very much like a cat and I have not just dog but "husky" energy. However, we always end up spending time together each week - usually 2-3 times. She's my favorite mystery and as grumpy and disassociating as she appears to be, she comes to me for visits, does somewhat sweet things and acts oblivious to the fact they can be viewed that way. After some of our recent more intimate conversations, it turns out I mean more to her than she shows or will openly admit. This has been the best aromantic relationship I've ever had. I am EXTREMELY lucky. I love her as much as a friend could. Very much a Bert and Ernie vibe.

[CenterMike]

Friendaversary update! We had an "Absolutely not a date" hang-out on Feb 13th. Her still reinforcing things as non-romantic I think is her commitment to the bit that we had worried about optics of our 'ship all those months ago. Started our Studio Ghibli run of movies. Watched Castle in The Sky. I over-gifted her...again...well it's okay for our 1st Friend Anniversary. I'd probably never do it for another friend. Our thing has been different and difficult at times...so I just had to. I decided whatever day our next Movie Night was, would be our "official" day. Nice job, Court - the day before Valentine's Day. lol. I still dig her. She's gotten more comfy with me. Hugs she has offered haven't been as stiff. Eye contact is noticeably longer. She rarely does her, "smile to herself" thing she used to do all the time. She's warming up. I think she sees I'm really just as I say I am and how she sees how I act.  She's been really guarded a long time. She showed her Mom stuff I got her. Seems like I've been normalized a bit and not just "one of the D&D group" anymore. I never had a platonic relationship before that I cared about like this. I feel I've been hyper-sexual my adult life; I had no idea this was a thing; I don't have to watch out for myself or for them. I don't know if my posts even mean anything to anybody. If you read this I hope it shows an ace/allo platonic close friendship can exist and not be weird...well not too weird. lol. Thanks again to all those who commented and shared insight on this journey.

[CenterMike]

Courtney is busy with work again. She's said a few times already that "we're okay" she just needs a lot of isolation and downtime. I know it. I've seen it the last year plus...it's just not easy on me. Not sure how to tell the wife I keep crying over not seeing my platonic friend. I need a therapist to pout to I guess. She did come see me on my birthday with a homemade banana pudding pie in hand. Absolutely awesome. But...I miss her not stopping in as much. I miss you, Courtney - terribly.

[CenterMike]

On 10/29/2024 at 9:33 AM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

I think they were asking if someone asexual would be 'in love' platonically. Which is a little odd but it's possible this ace friend is also aromantic (which maybe Mike doesn't know about the different terms), and in that case, is it possible for someone aro to be 'in love' platonically? I actually don't know that and it could be a good question to ask aro people if they can feel like they are. Though 'in love' usually means romantically, which.. would definitely bring more drama to the situation if the ace friend feels that way but I don't think that's what they meant, since it did sound like they more have really strong platonic feelings for each other.

 

Like I mentioned though I think one thing to wonder about though is what if this were 2 guys instead, would someone be asking the same questions? Probably not.

I think one thing happening is the societal issues around mixed-gender friendships, and the other is just not understanding fully what it means to be asexual xD, and how it's still possible to have romantic feelings unless someone is also aromantic.

Almost a year later... I didn't see where I answered this, but yes, Courtney is ARO and that's one of the first things she said to me when we started gelling - it's kind of her battle call "I'm ACE / ARO - leave me the fuck alone!" Okay, not really, but I can tell when someone has hit on her or given her an odd feeling because it kinda sounds like that, and I just think - What poor bastard did she just shoot down? She told me as a matter of fact when we first met, like "my name is Courtney and I'm ace/aro, you like D&D?". So long story longer. I knew what Aro was and that she is.  The way we initially acted with each other - high energy and always together when we first clicked seemed to really get the attention of passers by. So much so that people were overheard asking if we were a couple, dating, or something else. What happened to my wife? The whole gossip thing. It took a while to temper our energy towards each other, which mostly got cut short due to outside interaction. I wondered if there were feelings there of some sort that weren't just platonic. We kinda settled on that we just knew what we weren't. We also agreed is things were different...they might be different. So...Courtney and I still hang out two or three times a week. D&D once a week. Sometimes movie night - the absolute ace/aro "netflix and chill" - usually with Studio Ghibli. We're currently going through the entire Miyazaki catalog.  Sometimes I need a little grounding, and Courtney and my wife do that for me. Courtney calls it "maintenance". Every once in a while, I'll ask for "maintenance," and if she's able, she'll come by, we'll slow high-five if it's not too obvious, and just vibe a bit. She shows up. That's very important. In this last year, I've done a virtual Master's degree in research on platonic relationships, and apparently, you can "fall in love" platonically. Plato stated it can be deeper, more intense, and at least as serious as a romantic relationship because the love stems from the person, who they really are, and not something that fades naturally like hormones or physical attraction. I feel I have this for her. We do well doing couple things not as a couple and romantic things non-romantically. Sounds weird, I know, but it's a thing. Her warmth ebbs and flows. I never ask if it's because she said something about our relationship to an outsider, but I can feel she did, and they probably told her to be wary of me. She's pulled back after saying we shouldn't "appear so close," only to apologise a few days later. I can't deny it, and my wife knows how I feel, but I love Courtney in my own non-romantic, non-physical way. Neither of us has had a brutally honest relationship like this before. Sorry for all the words - I felt like writing and I was pursuing the page here. 

[Ceebs]

17 minutes ago, CenterMike said:

Plato stated it can be deeper, more intense, and at least as serious as a romantic relationship because the love stems from the person, who they really are, and not something that fades naturally like hormones or physical attraction.

Out of curiosity, do you view your love for your wife as not stemming from who she is? I wouldn't have married my husband if I 'loved' him because I was horny and found him hot. I liked what I knew of him as a person, liking him a lot led to sexual and romantic feelings, and the deepening of the connection we shared became love. I can't imagine any other reason I'd want to be with someone other than, as you say, 'who they really are'. 
 

I've absolutely no doubts that platonic connections can be very deep and meaningful, and obviously people can have more shallow or non-serious romantic/sexual feelings, like with a passing crush, a casual hookup, whatever. Mostly just wondering if your phrasing means that you don't perceive romantic relationships as ever being a case of falling in love because you like each other for who you are.

[CenterMike]

I absolutely liked my wife and fell in love with her before we got physical. We were both active duty military and had 6 months together before she had to go overseas. We lost touch because we weren't sure how serious we were, and long distance sucks. We didn't communicate for almost a year, and I didn't really date, and she didn't either, and then it just so happened I was going to end up near her for a few months. So we started talking again, and we clicked again over the phone and (gasp) snail mail letters. She was able to take off and stay close to my temporary assignment for a few weeks, and of course, sparks flew and our connection deepened. It never felt reliant on the physical. We've been together over 20 years - it's a part of our relationship dynamic for sure. After that summer reigniting ended, we kept in touch continually and planned to come home together for a few weeks, and we still had the feels. So I asked her to marry me. We were separated AGAIN for over a year during our engagement. We remained dual military for over 13 years until I got out. We spent almost half that time apart due to deployments and side missions. We've remained faithful all this time, and she has complete trust in me, and I have the same in her. I went straight to her as soon as this weird, intense platonic whatever hit me with Courtney. I'm more into nerd stuff, and Ann is not like that at all. Courtney and I are into D&D, art, Pokémon - even as adults, and it's been the first time I can be "myself" with a kindred spirit in those things and get a break from HUSBAND, DAD, BUSINESS OWNER - all those heavy titles and kinda be a middle schooler again in a way. Courtney is like my long-lost childhood best friend that I watch anime with, roll math rocks, and we just vibe coming up with characters and story hooks. Something I've never really had since I was 10 or 12 or whatever. I've never felt like my time and friendship take away from my relationship with my wife...it just seems to fill a bit of it I didn't know was missing. The intensity really confused me, so that sent me on an academic and, I guess a soul-searching endeavor to re-fiind myself. Figure out who I am now as this older, no-longer-twenty-something adult. It's been enlightening, and Ann has been cognizant of my journey. She's even observed us "playing together" during D&D and recognized that wasn't part of me she could engage. Going back to Plato I looked at it as platonic was more or less 100% the person's mind, personality and how you non-physically communicated. Romantic has all that, but a portion is that feeling of more, the physical connection, the desire to share a life and procreate, the romantic and sensual, but that some of that attraction may not be as strong as hormones, attractiveness changes over a lifetime, or as a person evolves. Platonic and Romantic are forms of Love, so it makes sense you can "fall" into both. I've had friends in the past who, if I see them again, we could pick up right where we left off. I have past girlfriends and lovers I have no interest in seeing again. Maybe that's as clear as mud, but I recognize a difference in the two feelings. In my decades of being self-aware and having hundreds of every kind of relationship, these past two years have allowed me to feel the most complete I have ever been. That's thanks to Ann and Courtney equally. And I agree - I can't imagine any other reason I'd want to be with someone other than for 'who they really are'.

[CenterMike]

***Update***. Courtney and I spent the weekend together a couple of weeks ago. We went to a Renfaire most of the day Saturday, and she drove. We sang and giggled the way there and back. We had a good time once there. We spent Sunday together playing D&D and talking until after 10 pm. We spent the following Thursday together, too. anime and talking til 10 pm again. Yes, knew where I was and who I was with each time. over 18months and going strong. I feel like we are in our groove and things feel lighter. It's awesome! Thank you to everyone who read, responded with encouragement, and responded with skepticism.