Allo with an ace friend - I think I'm coming at this from the opposite angle...

[CenterMike]

I'm hetero, but my friend is ace. I need help or validation or maybe for her to find this on here someday because It's hard for me to communicate with her sometimes.  This is a new experience for me. We've known each other for a little less than a year. I've been married for 25 years. We are happy with good physical chemistry. I don't make long-term friends easily or close friends easily. I'm dyslexic and pretty sure ADHD as well. I'm very good at masking and there probably isn't anyone in my life that gets to see 100% of the real me. Even my wife. My new friend "Courtney" however has me completely vulnerable. We were a little more than casual friends for several months and then it kind of blossomed into this intense close friendship. We went from spending 15-30 minutes with each other to 4-6+ up to 10hrs in a day. It wasn't every day, but with our work situations and personalities that much time is VERY signifigant. I overheard talk wondering if her and I were dating. This sent me into a panic attack and immediately talked to Courtney about it. We've had a couple convos about our feelings and how it's purely platonic. This lasted a couple months until a mutual friend felt our relationship was inappropriate and confronted Courtney about it. She defended me or I guess "us". We had agreed we would talk to our mutual friend but he REFUSED to listen and just said we were adults and we could do whatever. He's a big part of our mutual friend group and she really doesn't want to alienate our group, which I agree with. We are being less overt and not spending nearly as much time together. I've never been in a non sexual relationship so strong before. She really gets me in ways my wife doesn't. I've had this discussion with my wife about Courtney. I'm transparent with everyone that this is not a physical relationship, nor do I want it to be. We both feel this strong platonic bond and connection. I had no idea this was a thing. Is it wrong to love a friend so much? I'm about ready for therapy as soon as I can figure out how to pay for it. Please help!

[Karret]

I'm not sure if it's an ace IN love particularly, like in a romantic sense, but platonic friendships CAN be extremely deep and significant relationships. My best friend is basically like my sister, and I've accidentally called her that before, more than once. We've been friends for like over half our lives now, and we chat almost every day, and don't seem to be getting anywhere near tired of spending time together or chatting or whatever. She's totally straight, but we have a love for each other nonetheless, it's just that it's a deep platonic bond, not romantic or sexual.

For example, this is the types of friendships I daydream about having:

 

And so far, I've got that with my bestie. Solid friendships are amazing and extremely deep, meaningful and significant relationships, and romance/etc need not be a part of it; you can just be close like siblings! 😄

[and not the Alabama kind of siblings. <'D ]

[Sarah-Sylvia]

Hi @CenterMike.
So long as your wife understands that it's platonic and she's ok with things then it's ok, though if you spend more time with her than your wife.. maybe a little rebalancing is good.. but there's nothing wrong with having a best friend. It's harder because of society and the stereotypes around mixed-gender friendships, that's probably the bulk of it. Try not to let the opinions of others throw you off <3.

[CenterMike]

I definitely spend much more time with my wife. We have our own dynamic and we've perfected it over a couple decades.  My friend and I don't see a lot of each other right now. Sometimes it's kinda casual and sometimes its more. I get mixed signals on how she's feeling about our friendship some days. We usually greet with kind of a slow high five and on the good days it ends with a friendly hug. She's very private and the fact that we had negative outside intervention has "spooked" her. Some days it feels very much like she wants me as a close friend or best friend and other days...idk. I'm on this page to get some insight on what I need to do to support her. She says interactions are difficult sometimes and I can physically see it. I just want to be the best friend I can be and then secondarily I've never had platonic feelings like this before. It's a lot right now. Early on we agreed what people said didn't matter...but now that it's a mutual friend...it's more complicated.  Thanks for posting.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

12 minutes ago, CenterMike said:

I definitely spend much more time with my wife. We have our own dynamic and we've perfected it over a couple decades.  My friend and I don't see a lot of each other right now. Sometimes it's kinda casual and sometimes its more. I get mixed signals on how she's feeling about our friendship some days. We usually greet with kind of a slow high five and on the good days it ends with a friendly hug. She's very private and the fact that we had negative outside intervention has "spooked" her. Some days it feels very much like she wants me as a close friend or best friend and other days...idk. I'm on this page to get some insight on what I need to do to support her. She says interactions are difficult sometimes and I can physically see it. I just want to be the best friend I can be and then secondarily I've never had platonic feelings like this before. It's a lot right now. Early on we agreed what people said didn't matter...but now that it's a mutual friend...it's more complicated.  Thanks for posting.

Do what you can, and I think the best thing to do is have a good talk together including to understand more how she feels and thinks. Sounds like it got her worried which is really unfortunate. These things happen in life unfortunately, but there's positives to focus on too

[CenterMike]

19 minutes ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

So what you can, and I think the best thing to do is have a good talk together including to understand more how she feels and thinks. Sounds like it got her worried which is really unfortunate. These things happen in life unfortunately, but there's positives to focus on too

It's hard. If a friendship is a fire that needs tending; sometimes when I approach her with the idea of a talk I feel like I'm running at that hypothetical fire with a wet wool blanket. When we ever get any time though she relaxes and it's great. It's just gotten infrequent. I just have to breathe and let it be organic and not be so serious so much. We have time planned for Halloween...wish us luck. Thanks SS.

[petunia.the.plant]

2 hours ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

It's harder because of society and the stereotypes around mixed-gender friendships, that's probably the bulk of it.

I agree that this is probably the "issue" other people are seeing. Men and women can't be friends without people thinking something is up, which totally sucks.

As long as your wife doesn't see an issue, I don't see one either. Hope it all works out! 

[Sally]

I'm a little confused.  You ask "is this what it's like to be ace and in love?"  But you're not ace, and we can't possible figure out what Courtney -- the ace -- is feeling.  So are you asking if this is what it's like to be in love with someone who's ace? 

 

You say you want to support Courtney, but in what way do you think she needs support?  And your feelings don't really sound completely platonic -- it sounds like you are actually in love, and a little upset because you're not seeing as much of Courtney as you were.   Think for a minute -- if you can -- about how you would feel if you were actually not married and didn't have to feel that you needed to  reassure your wife.  Would you be interested in Courtney as a possible relationship?  

 

Also, it sounds from the length of your marriage that you may be in your 40s, at least.  And you know Courtney from your workplace.   Those two situations sometimes combine to produce feelings that may be the case for you -- someone new who "gets you" like your longtime marriage partner doesn't.  Does that feel like it could be the case?

[Sarah-Sylvia]

6 hours ago, Sally said:

I'm a little confused.  You ask "is this what it's like to be ace and in love?"  But you're not ace, and we can't possible figure out what Courtney -- the ace -- is feeling.  So are you asking if this is what it's like to be in love with someone who's ace? 

 

You say you want to support Courtney, but in what way do you think she needs support?  And your feelings don't really sound completely platonic -- it sounds like you are actually in love, and a little upset because you're not seeing as much of Courtney as you were.   Think for a minute -- if you can -- about how you would feel if you were actually not married and didn't have to feel that you needed to  reassure your wife.  Would you be interested in Courtney as a possible relationship?  

 

Also, it sounds from the length of your marriage that you may be in your 40s, at least.  And you know Courtney from your workplace.   Those two situations sometimes combine to produce feelings that may be the case for you -- someone new who "gets you" like your longtime marriage partner doesn't.  Does that feel like it could be the case?

I think they were asking if someone asexual would be 'in love' platonically. Which is a little odd but it's possible this ace friend is also aromantic (which maybe Mike doesn't know about the different terms), and in that case, is it possible for someone aro to be 'in love' platonically? I actually don't know that and it could be a good question to ask aro people if they can feel like they are. Though 'in love' usually means romantically, which.. would definitely bring more drama to the situation if the ace friend feels that way but I don't think that's what they meant, since it did sound like they more have really strong platonic feelings for each other.

 

Like I mentioned though I think one thing to wonder about though is what if this were 2 guys instead, would someone be asking the same questions? Probably not.

I think one thing happening is the societal issues around mixed-gender friendships, and the other is just not understanding fully what it means to be asexual xD, and how it's still possible to have romantic feelings unless someone is also aromantic.

[Olallieberry]

Hi! Welcome to AVEN. I'd be surprised if your friend is on here, but who knows? It's a small world sometimes. Even if she is, I don't know whether she'd be poking around in FSPFA.

 

An intense friendship outside of a marriage can absolutely be valid!

 

It can also create, introduce, conceal or amplify a romantic conflict. I'm getting those vibes from what you've written, but, I could be mis-reading things or just uninformed about what it's really like between you two.

 

I haven't seen it mentioned, so, I feel like it's important to make clear that "non-sexual" doesn't necessarily mean "non-romantic," and that "platonic" doesn't simply mean "non-sexual." It can include so much more than just "friendship without attraction." For this reason, I still see a lot of gray area and unstated parts in your story, such that we don't know if things are fully appropriate or not.

 

11 hours ago, CenterMike said:

Is this what it's like to be ace and in love?

If you think Courtney is in love with you, and you're "carrying on" with her (even if not sexually), it sounds inappropriate to me. But that's between you and your wife.

 

You said your wife knows about her. Does she know about the intensity? Does she know how much you want those hugs? Does she know that you feel like Courtney gets you in ways she doesn't? Does she know you're saying it's "love," even if platonic? Is there anything at all about this which you're hiding from your wife or don't/won't talk about with her? Is there anything you've told us which you haven't/don't want to tell your wife?

 

Back to that original question: Do you think Courtney is "in love" with you? Do you want her to be? That expression heavily implies something beyond the merely-platonic. It seems like you're using the word "platonic" here to mean "not sexual and therefore 100% okay." So, is it 100% okay?

 

What I'm getting toward, here, is that this strongly sounds to me like what is called an "emotional affair" or "emotional infidelity." I'm not saying that's what's happening, only the three of you can know, and, the way to know would be by looking at whether you're concealing any part of it from your wife and how she feels about it/how she would feel about it if she knew how intense and "loving" it is.

 

("Loving" isn't in quotes because I want to belittle or minimize the love which is there, I just quoted it because you said it.)

 

As long as your wife is informed, on board, and not being misled, I think it's great! And I hope we can be helpful. I don't doubt that such relationships can exist and can be compatible with someone's marriage.

 

11 hours ago, CenterMike said:

I get mixed signals on how she's feeling about our friendship some days. We usually greet with kind of a slow high five and on the good days it ends with a friendly hug.

How are the signals mixed? I can't tell if what you mean when you say "how she's feeling about our friendship" is that she wants more, or wants less, or wants something beyond friendship, or wants something different from what you want, or if you even know what you want and need to know what she wants in order to figure that out.

 

It sounds to me like you want her to hug you and when it happens it's good. What about when it doesn't happen? Are you disappointed? Is this a sign that you want more than she does?

 

Mostly my concern is about whether one of you wants more from this than what the other is available for.

 

Maybe your friendship is perfect for her in her situation: She's asexual and (you didn't say but) possibly also aromantic, and such people often want and sometimes find very deep friendships which are non-romantic. But when they find that with, of all people, a married person who has a sexual orientation toward their gender, and who already seems to be hungry for physical affection with them, of course it would make outsiders wonder, and, anticipate risk.

 

Maybe your friendship is ✌️"perfect"✌️ for you in your situation: You seem to be close to your wife, but after 25 years, are you thrilled to be having an intense emotional experience with someone else who's nominally unavailable and therefore ✌️"safe"✌️ as far as the risk to sexual fidelity goes?

 

Is sex the only area where "fidelity" matters? What does your wife think? Would she see anything, anything at all, as crossing any of those lines, if she knew everything? Does she know everything?

 

11 hours ago, CenterMike said:

I'm on this page to get some insight on what I need to do to support her. She says interactions are difficult sometimes and I can physically see it. I just want to be the best friend I can be

What kind of support are you talking about? What does she need from you? "Interactions are difficult" - are you talking about interactions between the two of you or about her interactions with other people? Either way, what is your special, particular role in that/how do you support her around that?

 

This is one of your statements which makes it sound to me like you have crypto-romantic feelings, here. It sounds like you want to be a white knight for her, which is a common component of trying to get more attention and more favorable attention from someone. This is just how it sounds to me.

 

Is this something you'd say to your wife? "This woman needs my support?" And what I'm reading between the lines, rightly or wrongly, is that you're in a special position to support her in a way which nobody else is. Do you feel that way? Would your wife hear it that way? Would that be OK with her?

 

I'm scratching my head about how "interactions are hard and I'm here to help with that" because you started off saying that (at least some of) your own interactions with her are hard:

 

11 hours ago, CenterMike said:

I need help or validation or maybe for her to find this on here someday because It's hard for me to communicate with her sometimes.

What do you want to communicate to her which has been hard to do? What message would you want her to take from this thread if she were to find it?

 

What are the things which are hard to communicate? What is it that's hard about this communication? Is it because you have feelings you can't put into words? Is it because you've been trying to find out about her feelings and she doesn't put it into words for you? Am I continuing to hammer on the "something seems fishy" angle? Yes, I see that I am, but I'm doing it because if everything here is safe and appropriate and we can figure out how to be of help, these questions help to understand how to do so.

I know I appear to be doing that thing you wish people wouldn't do and which others here are telling you to ignore: I don't know the situation, I only know what you've written. I'm not trying to judge or to dictate a direction to you, I'm asking a lot of questions partly to zero in on whether there's something inappropriate or risky here which you aren't aware of or aren't admitting to yourself. (But also to see how we can be of help.)

 

If there isn't anything like that and you aren't putting energy into managing other people's perceptions in order to hide certain feelings of yours, then great. You, your wife, and Courtney are all safe and happy, and, naysayers can bugger off. I really believe this is possible and might be the situation here. I hope you'll forgive my questioning. And, if clarification comes, then maybe we'll understand better what support you're trying to provide to her and maybe we can all get some ideas about improving communication.

 

I'll just be transparent about where my perceptions come from: I've been married a long time too, and, I've had super-intense work-friend situations where there was intensely strong attraction, what felt like an intensely strong connection, and a desire to create additional intimacy via that white-knight mechanism. I've been in the situation of sublimating or repressing certain feelings because of unavailability. I would say I never crossed the line into "emotional infidelity," but I think it would be painful to my wife to know more about them than she already does (which isn't much). So, I recognize that I could be projecting my experience onto your story and it could be not really like that. I also recognize that sometimes other people see what we don't see, ourselves, which is why I feel like at least asking you these questions. No hard feelings if I'm just 100% wrong, be free to say so.

 

I'm just going to wrap up by repeating what I started with:
An intense friendship outside of a marriage can absolutely be valid. It can also create, introduce, conceal or amplify a romantic conflict. "Unavailability" (either ours, or theirs, or both) can have the paradoxical effect of making these experiences even more compelling. What I'm reacting to is a bunch of unstated stuff, and I wonder if these things went unstated because either you're unconsciously repressing them or actively avoiding looking at and admitting them.

 

I'd say "good luck with it" and help if I could, but I'm still not totally sure what you're after

 

[CenterMike]

@SallyThank you for your input! I agree I could have worded (in love that differently but I really just meant I have the feelings but not the desire for physical intimacy. It's new to me. What I meant by support is that she is kinda awkward socially and has a very small circle of friends and being the one friend she sees regularly face to face, I just want to be aware of anything I can do. She gets excited and says she feels seen and validated whenever a fictional character comes out as ace. She has stated shes aroace. I've always had a physical attraction or emotional attraction to someone and almost immediately followed by the other. As far as being in love with her - thats EXACTLY where I went as soon as the emotions really hit me. I have soul searched, google searched and spoken with friends, the concensus is that it's a strong platonic love. Yup in my 40s. I didnt so much reassure my wife as much as just told her I had strong feelings for my platonic friend. We were both active military and have always had short term "work spouses" and some have stayed long term friends. We always know who our partner is hanging out with and have the utmost trust in each other. Mine and Courtney's friendship bonded over a mutual hobby, hence why we never see each other. She works 30 mins away and makes time for us to hang out when she can...I feel very lucky anyone would do that for me. Between and my wife I'm the far more eccentric one and have always had to have friends to help fill in when I want to connect with my hobbies. And @Sarah-Sylvia I brought up the same thing if we were 2 guys...no one would have said a damn thing. I do have a male het friend I connect with like he's a younger brother. We had a strong bromance period too a couple years ago and no external drama. I really, really appreciate all this feedback and support. It's been hard to find in my small friend group and I hate to burden Courtney with all my "I, me and my" worries and feelings all the time. This is the first relationship I've had where both parties have actually had to put effort into nurturing. Thank you for commenting, supporting and criticizing. It's crushing to internalize this for me all the time.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

24 minutes ago, CenterMike said:

@SallyThank you for your input! I agree I could have worded (in love that differently but I really just meant I have the feelings but not the desire for physical intimacy. It's new to me. What I meant by support is that she is kinda awkward socially and has a very small circle of friends and being the one friend she sees regularly face to face, I just want to be aware of anything I can do. She gets excited and says she feels seen and validated whenever a fictional character comes out as ace. She has stated shes aroace. I've always had a physical attraction or emotional attraction to someone and almost immediately followed by the other. As far as being in love with her - thats EXACTLY where I went as soon as the emotions really hit me. I have soul searched, google searched and spoken with friends, the concensus is that it's a strong platonic love. Yup in my 40s. I didnt so much reassure my wife as much as just told her I had strong feelings for my platonic friend. We were both active military and have always had short term "work spouses" and some have stayed long term friends. We always know who our partner is hanging out with and have the utmost trust in each other. Mine and Courtney's friendship bonded over a mutual hobby, hence why we never see each other. She works 30 mins away and makes time for us to hang out when she can...I feel very lucky anyone would do that for me. Between and my wife I'm the far more eccentric one and have always had to have friends to help fill in when I want to connect with my hobbies. And @Sarah-Sylvia I brought up the same thing if we were 2 guys...no one would have said a damn thing. I do have a male het friend I connect with like he's a younger brother. We had a strong bromance period too a couple years ago and no external drama. I really, really appreciate all this feedback and support. It's been hard to find in my small friend group and I hate to burden Courtney with all my "I, me and my" worries and feelings all the time. This is the first relationship I've had where both parties have actually had to put effort into nurturing. Thank you for commenting, supporting and criticizing. It's crushing to internalize this for me all the time.

Ok so you did mean it about your feelings? It is possible to have romantic feelings for someone without wanting physical intimacy but usually that would be someone who doesn't have touch as an important love language. Personally as someone very touchy, if I feel romantic towards someone I'll absolutely want physical intimacy xD.

 

I'm glad talking about it helps a bit. I really hope that you 2 can continue your friendship. I know it must be harder for her if she has some social anxiety, I've dealt with that and it can be hard to manage others' opinions. But  friendship matters more and hopefully others cool down on how they think also.

 

 

[CenterMike]

47 minutes ago, Olallieberry said:

Is it because you've been trying to find out about her feelings and she doesn't put it into words for you?

@OlallieberryThats the part I have trouble with. We have finally decided to describe our relationship by what it isn't than what it is. It's not sexual and it's not romantic. After that we have trouble defining. I went to my wife immediately after realizing I was having these feelings and I'm completely transparent about the intensity. Courtney is aro and I treat her the same as I do with my other friends as far as gifting, buying each other dinner etc. But then it's hard for me to really define what's romantic(?) As far as mixed feelings it's like somedays we're close friends and some days I'm put at arms length and I don't know if it's mood or stress or something else that dictates that. But I will say sometimes there's a look or a word that makes think maybe there's more to what she says sometimes. I don't want that, for her to be in love with me, because I wont reciprocate and I think that would be excruciating for anyone and I don't want that. I'd be flattered though. I just want a long term close friend I can bond with over my hobbies. Thats it. I'd sacrifice the hugs for a more solid defined friendship. I really appreciate the thoughtful examination and bringing up the negative arguments and points. I've thought about it all myself. I wish I could convey why it seems so hard for us to clearly communicate, it's in part due to our personalities. She's very private and guarded and what I would call a true introvert and assumes I know stuff like I can mind read, because sometimes we do communicate on that non verbal vibe a lot. I'm typically pretty guarded in person, but I'm becoming more open with her. Now that I've paused and have written all this down...what if she is in love with me? She's known she's ace and aro for at least 15 years. I don't know much about her other past relationships. OMG. I dismissed that without even a thought. It would explain a lot. i dont feel thats the case but... how do I approach that? thank you.

[CenterMike]

1 hour ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

I'm glad talking about it helps a bit. I really hope that you 2 can continue your friendship. I know it must be harder for her if she has some social anxiety, I've dealt with that and it can be hard to manage others' opinions. But  friendship matters more and hopefully others cool down on how they think also.

It doesn't feel romantic...maybe i'm not totally sure what that romantic gestures are outside of stereotypical gestures - flowers etc is. She does have social anxiety, and I try to mitigate that and make her comfortable best I can. Thanks for your thoughts n words.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

1 hour ago, CenterMike said:

It doesn't feel romantic...maybe i'm not totally sure what that romantic gestures are outside of stereotypical gestures - flowers etc is. She does have social anxiety, and I try to mitigate that and make her comfortable best I can. Thanks for your thoughts n words.

I think of it (romance) being more about the feelings than gestures. that is wanting a close intimate bond with someone that goes beyond friendship. And that usually means wanting to share intimacy, so if someone is physical then wanting physical intimacy will make sense, but it's not the only way to have an intimate bond.

 

You sound very nice and empathetic, so I'm sure that will add a lot of good to the situation :).

[Olallieberry]

1 hour ago, CenterMike said:

how do I approach that? thank you.

Yep, sounds like you've got it all under control as far as propriety goes.

 

So... here's how I personally think you should approach it.

 

Play dumb.

 

Just strike all these thoughts from your mind. You won't reciprocate if she does happen to feel more than you're available for. End of story. Since you aren't available, and you aren't in this for the thrills, you have no stake at all in any feelings she might have which are beyond platonic friendship. So, there's no reason for you to figure it out. Can you be satisfied with just recognizing that, hey, maybe she does have that but it's not your responsibility to manage those feelings and there's no threat to your own fidelity since it would be your job to ignore them if they did exist?

 

All this intrigue doesn't have to be a thing at all. The friendship can proceed just as it has been and there won't be any issue unless she one day reveals that she feels more and wants more. Don't give any energy of your own to this. She can probably tell when you're thinking about it and watching her for clues. That might have something to do with why some days she's distant and some days she's closer. If you just stop paying attention to it, since it's nothing you ever want to entertain, then maybe things will "get normal" in this friendship. I don't mean any less deep or loving, I just mean less weird and uncertain.

 

At that point, you can, with utter confidence, ignore what anyone else thinks about it. The way things are now, with you thinking about it this hard, I think you're breathing life into the uncertainty and the sense of impropriety which at least some people seem to be picking up from the two of you.

 

Playing dumb is how I'd handle it. It wouldn't matter if she did have beyond-platonic feelings because you're not available for them. So, I wouldn't feed it.

[CenterMike]

11 minutes ago, Olallieberry said:

 

All this intrigue doesn't have to be a thing at all. The friendship can proceed just as it has been and there won't be any issue unless she one day reveals that she feels more and wants more. Don't give any energy of your own to this. She can probably tell when you're thinking about it and watching her for clues. That might have something to do with why some days she's distant and some days she's closer. If you just stop paying attention to it, since it's nothing you ever want to entertain, then maybe things will "get normal" in this friendship. I don't mean any less deep or loving, I just mean less weird and uncertain.

Wow. Mind blown. I am an avid overthinker. I think this might be the best thing I've heard all week.

[Olallieberry]

Just now, CenterMike said:

Wow. Mind blown. I am an avid overthinker. I think this might be the best thing I've heard all week.

Heh.

 

Glad to help.

[CassIsSarcastic]

7 hours ago, CenterMike said:

I'm hetero, but my friend is ace. I need help or validation or maybe for her to find this on here someday because It's hard for me to communicate with her sometimes.  This is a new experience for me. We've known each other for a little less than a year. I've been married for 25 years. We are happy with good physical chemistry. I don't make long-term friends easily or close friends easily. I'm dyslexic and pretty sure ADHD as well. I'm very good at masking and there probably isn't anyone in my life that gets to see 100% of the real me. Even my wife. My new friend "Courtney" however has me completely vulnerable. We were a little more than casual friends for several months and then it kind of blossomed into this intense close friendship. We went from spending 15-30 minutes with each other to 4-6+ up to 10hrs in a day. It wasn't every day, but with our work situations and personalities that much time is VERY signifigant. I overheard talk wondering if her and I were dating. This sent me into a panic attack and immediately talked to Courtney about it. We've had a couple convos about our feelings and how it's purely platonic. This lasted a couple months until a mutual friend felt our relationship was inappropriate and confronted Courtney about it. She defended me or I guess "us". We had agreed we would talk to our mutual friend but he REFUSED to listen and just said we were adults and we could do whatever. He's a big part of our mutual friend group and she really doesn't want to alienate our group, which I agree with. We are being less overt and not spending nearly as much time together. I've never been in a non sexual relationship so strong before. She really gets me in ways my wife doesn't. I've had this discussion with my wife about Courtney. I'm transparent with everyone that this is not a physical relationship, nor do I want it to be. Is this what it's like to be ace and in love? I had no idea this was a thing. Is it wrong to love a friend so much? I'm about ready for therapy as soon as I can figure out how to pay for it. Please help!

It's not wrong to love a friend that much.

 

It sounds like your bond is probably queerplatonic, which Courtney may have mentioned. You have an exceptionally involved, meaningful, committed platonic relationship. This is a pretty common occurrence for ace/aro folks, but of course it happens to allo people as well, and they can absolutely be mixed allo/ace. I've formed them without even knowing what they were. If your wife understands and is comfortable with that, I see no problem having to do with you.

 

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you completely, so forgive me if I'm wrong; If your "Is this what it's like to be ace and in love?" panic stems from thinking Courtney has romantic feelings for you—I'm guessing this because you said 'ace' and you've identified yourself as allo—then I'd take comfort in the fact you've had multiple conversations with each other about the platonic nature of your relationship, and you also agree it's platonic on your end and you don't want to have a physical relationship. I know it can be a bit confusing from an allo point of view, as oftentimes people think a romantic relationship for an ace person must be just a friendship minus the physicality, but there are differences between romantic and close friendships or queerplatonic relationships. If the identified feelings are platonic, I'd take each other at your words.

 

Like @Sarah-Sylvia said, culture demonizes close friendships, particularly male-female ones. 1. Society frequently spreads false, toxic beliefs that men can have no platonic feelings for women ("men only want one thing,") and also that women must be in love with any male friend in their life, and 2. Some people can't "get their head out of the gutter" and assume everyone else is much the same. It's complete BS. Regardless, outsider points of view on your personal friendship are invalid. 

 

The problem here is definitely that both you and Courtney have been hurt and made uncomfortable by the rumors, even from a friend. It's probably affecting her in a different way. People constantly invalidate ace people's asexuality and their relationships, and the lies seem to be implying a physical relationship she doesn't want (with someone who's clearly important to her), and she was "confronted" directly about it by another friend of you both, also probably fairly important to her based on what you said. That's awful (to both of you) whether she's out as ace or not. It sounds like she's 1. hesitant to do anything that might "lend credence" to those lies about herself that erase her asexuality, and 2. trying to spare your reputation and hold the friend group together, since those people insinuated that you, a happily married man, are essentially 'having an affair' (as foolish and unfounded as they are to assume that, I know), and trying to defend you and her of those accusations didn't initially work out. So, I'm sure she still very much wants to remain a part of your life, but she's just struggling with what to do at this particular moment, much like you are, and distancing while she tries to figure it out.

 

No one else can tell you what your relationship is or what the feelings in your relationship are; even from another friend, that's an outsider perspective. But I realize it's hard to be the subject of slander even when it's pointedly untrue, maybe even especially so. Close friendships or queerplatonic bonds are perfectly normal relationships to have, and it's OK to have intense, significant platonic feelings—romantic love is not the only strong, meaningful love that exists, contrary to what some people believe—so feeling it is not a sign of you needing mental help or correction. But therapy may prove helpful to cope with people coming between you and your friend with these rumors; I'd just advise that you may encounter some confusion in some medical settings as well -- unless perhaps it's in an LGBTQIA+ safe zone -- because therapists are people who've also grown up in this same culture of relationship hierarchicalism and allonormativity, and many are uneducated on things relating to queerplatonic bonds and ace people. But as an alternative, if therapy is too expensive, I'd consider looking into some Ace or LGBTQIA+ groups, virtual or in-person, where you can vent among friends; maybe you can go together. 

 

I hope this helps in some way. I'm really sorry this has happened to you both, and I hope all will be well soon enough. You sound like a really great, caring friend, and you both deserve your friendship. 💜 

 

[CenterMike]

UPDATE:

It's been almost a week since I first posted. I took some advice AND some deep breaths. I gave our relationship a lot of space and let go of a lot of the need for immediate answers. 

Possibly by coincidence or by my actions, things are a lot better. I actually got to see her a little more often. I wasn't sure we would get to hang out on Halloween because things kinda seemed tense the first part of last week. There's a specific time we hang out when we do. It was well past that time and I hadn't sent any reminders or verified she was coming. No real communication for a few days at all really. Basically no pressure and she had full control. About 30 minutes past the very latest she would ever show up ( seriously, it sounds minor but she runs like a Swiss watch - I even have a daily reminder set at a specific time and she hits it within 5 minutes or so on the days she shows up) I thought I saw the back half of her car pass by. A few moments later she came striding by the window - I felt my mouth fall open and I actually teared up a little. Sometimes it's a short visit, especially if I have people to deal with when she drops by. It was kinda busy, but she got a book and sat down and patiently waited for me to finish up. We had a good hang out. She stayed longer than expected. Since then, she's come by 3 more times. I almost instigated some more serious talk tonight once the rest of the group was leaving, but I let it go.

 

[CenterMike]

Since reading the term queerplatonic from @CassIsSarcastic, I've been reading up. Most of the reading has been over the last 2 days. Now it feels like pieces are kinda falling into place. I wrote my "update" post about 7 hours ago. After some thinking, I wonder if I'm in a "normal" (WhateverTF that is) marriage - happy too btw - and a queerplatonic relationship with my ace friend. (most everything I read really leaned into the commitment part - but this is a new thing for us both) I mean what if that's the case and Courtney withdrew from our relationship because she views me as "unavailable", but she's compartmentalized those feelings in favor of being less intimate friends (at least temporarily). I've already spoken with my wife, Ann, about my intense non-sexual, non-romantic feelings for Courtney. Her response was basically as long as I'm coming home to her each night and not engaging sexually it's okay. We both have a history of platonic friends. She has been watching some polyamorous content lately. Maybe she's more aware than she let on.

So even though for now Courtney and I are keeping it kinda casual there have been a couple moments that seemed to indicate she might want more than casual. She did admit we have a unique relationship those weeks ago when things were intense. On Halloween there was something Courtney said about us being friends a year this coming Feb in a way that almost felt romantic. Her smile and eyes were unusually warm when she said it and I got that feeling of being pulled in closer emotionally. I honestly do have a ridiculous imagination...but my intuition is really accurate too. All this feels like when I was teen, discovering who I was and struggling at it, but now I'm 45+. Is it midlife crisis stuff? I don't really buy into that. Or some kind of "man-a-pause" brought on by shifting testosterone? Not sure about that either b/c I've been joking/bragging about my sexual prowess/libido for the last 6-7 years is as strong as when I was 20. I have strong feelings for both women, and neither feels wrong. I am going to keep it casual with Courtney for a bit...but there does need to be an honest, intimate conversation in the near future.

Is there anyone else in a qpr and married?

 

Tears of emotion and frustration in my eyes. Mike the overthinker is looking for feedback again.

 

P.S. Ann showed up at mine n Courtney's hobby event today. Courtney and I sit fairly close. Ann came over, bent down to me and kissed n face cuddled briefly since we hadn't seen each other in a few days - neither of them reacted to the other.

[Olallieberry]

20 hours ago, CenterMike said:

I am going to keep it casual with Courtney for a bit...but there does need to be an honest, intimate conversation in the near future.

How so? It's not clear to me what needs to be said. Or asked.

[CenterMike]

13 hours ago, Olallieberry said:

How so? It's not clear to me what needs to be said. Or asked.

I get the feeling sometimes she might want more than what the boundaries we talked about allow. I don't know if I'm picking up on feelings she has or if I'm projecting feelings I may have. This whole dynamic is new to me. I don't want to rock the boat, but it seems like a conversation.

[Olallieberry]

Or you could play dumb, since there doesn't seem to be any downside to just ignoring the matter and continuing as you have been.

 

You don't owe it to her to help her with her unmet needs, if you aren't available to meet them. And if, as you say, these feelings aren't hers at all and are feelings of yours which you might find you're projecting, then, same diff: She doesn't owe it to you to help you with your unmet needs, and this conversation would just be the creation of further emotional entanglement.

 

Even if it's mutual and you find out that you both have feelings: You can't act on them, so, what good would talking about them do? Wouldn't finding out that they're mutual and having that fact now be out in the open make things worse? Are you sure you aren't trying to have cake and eat it too, here? 

 

I feel like I hear you saying you don't want emotional entanglement beyond your boundaries, but, that's exactly what opening this can of worms would create.

 

Play dumb, if you don't want drama.

[CenterMike]

On 11/4/2024 at 11:01 PM, Olallieberry said:

How so? It's not clear to me what needs to be said. Or asked.

@Olallieberry I am mostly curious if she's had this amount of intense chemistry before and if it led to anything.  I know it's new to me without a physical and/or romantic component. The last week has been pretty good. "Playing dumb" as it were and also not messaging as much or being too inquisitive about the next time we can hang out has seemed to temper things a bit. She was talking about our "friendiversary" coming up in a couple months. It's kind of a deal since we both don't make long term friends too easily. She had the warmest, most genuine smile when she mentioned it. 

 

[Ceebs]

Gonna be honest here, and hope it doesn't come off as rude... I know you said you're not in (romantic) love, but the way you talk about her and about this situation, it really sounds like you are. Platonic friendship love absolutely can and does exist, I very sincerely believe that, but that's not really the impression I get from your posts. 
 

Take that with a grain of salt if you want, of course.

[CenterMike]

On 11/11/2024 at 2:51 AM, Mrs Telecaster-to-be said:

Gonna be honest here, and hope it doesn't come off as rude... I know you said you're not in (romantic) love, but the way you talk about her and about this situation, it really sounds like you are

Absolutely not rude. That's the kind of feedback I expect. I've never really had a friend put the effort in like she has. It's not all the time but when she does it kinda still catches me off guard. Like the time she brought me a bag with a couple of slightly larger than single serving banana puddings and whispered to me "Those are for you, don't share" at one of our gatherings. Yeah, I keep examining my emotions and how I perceive hers. That's been in the background the whole time. It doesn't feel the same as other romantic experiences I've had. That was the first place I went when someone wondered what our relationship was. I emphatically told her that was not where I was at and assumed that's where she was too. I immediately told my spouse I had these feelings. I also immediately talked to Courtney once I realized I had some kind of feelings and set boundaries. Much to my surprise we got a lot of support from our families and most friends regarding our strong platonic feelings. Things have had time to temper and the feelings are still there as strong as they were when we were in "high energy" mode. Even after she wanted things to cool off to avoid drama in our friend group, when she comes around I see/feel she has the same connection too. I'm having a period of emotional self re-discovery and have found myself very sensitive, not just to her but in most of my relationships. I said all that to really just say I'm hyper aware of my feelings in all my relationships much like a teen and I worry if I'm reading her and myself wrong. I don't want things to change in any of my relationships. I'm really happy with all facets of my life right now. But...what if both of us are feeling more than we're admitting? Do I address it? Or keep on and enjoy being "just friends" and follow our boundaries. If I were single I'd still respect her ace aro identity and not push. Even in that case it would take a huge overature on her part for me to consider crossing boundaries. I've always been very emotionally repressed aside from long term romantic/physical relationships and this has been difficult for me. We have time planned together on maybe Thursday and definitely Sunday and a movie night next week. I guess I'll keep dropping updates. I think my icon avatar sums it up. lol. Thank you for commenting. This group and my outpouring on here is my therapy.

[Ceebs]

Gotcha. Yeah, your profile pic seems to fit. 😅

 

21 hours ago, CenterMike said:

But...what if both of us are feeling more than we're admitting? Do I address it?

I would think if you're not in an open marriage, addressing it would have to take the form of taking a huge step back from the friendship. Emotional closeness tends to just stoke the flames of romance even more and it can become full-on emotional cheating.

 

You speak of her with an attentiveness to certain details of your interactions that remind me of the experience of swearing up and down that someone was my friend only, until it was impossible to deny that I was actually falling in love. I guess I'm picking up on a similar vibe, kind of anxious and intensely happy at the same time, trying to sort out what might be going on on both sides of the equation. Entirely platonic situations usually aren't quite so... high energy... but that's just my observation, and humans are nothing if not diverse in the ways they experience connection, so.

[Olallieberry]

8 hours ago, CenterMike said:

what if both of us are feeling more than we're admitting? Do I address it? Or keep on and enjoy being "just friends" and follow our boundaries

What if there were?

 

Would that change the boundaries?

 

Everything you seem to want, as far as "finding out" and "bringing it up" and "clarifying" goes, seems to risk transgressing the established boundaries. And it seems like you're aware of that and motivated to go for it anyway.

 

If you have boundaries, be the one who's in control over them. You can't keep other people from crossing them but you can avoid putting yourself in the position where you're that person or where someone else inevitably does it.

 

Are they boundaries or not?

[CenterMike]

11 hours ago, Olallieberry said:

What if there were?

 

Would that change the boundaries?

Really...it wouldn't change anything except for having that knowledge, I guess. I had a very good opportunity today to ask. I didn't take it.