A Link to the Past

[Zealous]

I'm comfortable with my identity and where I am in general, but sometimes I'm insecure about stuff or would like relationship advice or whatnot, and I don't feel like I can come here for that anymore now that I'm supposed to be the authority.

Because of course, authority figures never doubt themselves or seek help. :P

If there's one thing that I've learned from coaching foil, it's that you should never be afraid of asking for help, even - and perhaps especially - when you're in a position of power/authority.

If you don't feel comfortable asking AVEN as a member of AVEN, that's one thing. If you don't feel comfortable asking AVEN as an Asexuality Guru, that's another.

I'm not demanding that you tackle it, but I seriously believe that if you want advice, you should have no undue reservations in going to AVEN.

[spinneret]

I think it's more that the people I think of as my own elders or advisors are far and few between, and those still around are spread thin.

I'm no longer asking, "does anyone else feel this way," or other general questions that anyone can helpfully respond to. I'm wondering about relationships and theory and things in the context of asexuality; my questions would mostly depend on input from others (elders) who've already settled into an asexual identity, or who identify otherwise but can provide perspective with an understanding of asexual identity. Given how people who've hammered out their asexual identities have a tendency to slip into the shadows, and how hardline labelling and bigotry seeps into so many threads, I'm not confident of getting a productive discussion in response.

I do, however, refer back to the precedent of Cate and Livers' practically getting chased off the boards. Not that I'm a Cate or a Liver, by a long shot. Heck, I haven't been on TV :P

[mechafox]

I do, however, refer back to the precedent of Cate and Livers' practically getting chased off the boards.

Wait...WHAT?

I must've missed this.

[cyan]

I'm no longer asking, "does anyone else feel this way," or other general questions that anyone can helpfully respond to. I'm wondering about relationships and theory and things in the context of asexuality; my questions would mostly depend on input from others (elders) who've already settled into an asexual identity, or who identify otherwise but can provide perspective with an understanding of asexual identity. Given how people who've hammered out their asexual identities have a tendency to slip into the shadows, and how hardline labelling and bigotry seeps into so many threads, I'm not confident of getting a productive discussion in response.

FWIW, I'd love to see more of that sort of thread.

I won't claim to have ironed out every detail of my identity, but I've definitely got a better handle on it than I used to ... I feel like I would learn a lot from that sort of thread and, if I'm lucky, might even have a bit to contribute as well.

General question threads and threads seeking reassurance have their place, and their place is certainly AVEN, but it can sometimes be frustrating to see so many threads that I don't really 'click' with, simply because I'm not in that (emotional, identity-developmental) place anymore.

I seem to recall reading at one point that the Older Asexuals section of the forum was not just for chronologically older people, but people who have identified as asexual for a (comparatively) long time. Do you think such threads might get a friendlier, more productive reception there?

I'd hate to see that sort of thread go completely unposted, because I feel like exploring our identity is what AVEN is all about.

[Dargon]

I do, however, refer back to the precedent of Cate and Livers' practically getting chased off the boards. Not that I'm a Cate or a Liver, by a long shot. Heck, I haven't been on TV :P

I don;t recall them getting chaces off, threads please?

As I remember, they just sort of started showing up less and less, and I do recall the 20/20 episode making it sound as though "fooling around" is what made them unwelcome.

Heck, I seem to remember most of the board being happy for them. I was. And I still get excited any time one of them pops in for even a single post.

[Jesh]

that was about the way it went, Dargon, but there was a bit of a kerfluffle at the news that they had even considered having sex, and what that meant in terms of being asexual.

personally I wish we could have more discussions like that, about the boundaries of a/sexual identity.

[mechafox]

I remember the 20/20 thing...but I don't remember any chasing off.

[Hallucigenia]

FWIW, I'd love to see more of that sort of thread.

Me too.

Re the Cate and Liver thing: if I'm remembering correctly, what put people off wasn't just the fact that they considered/experimented with sexual things, but the fact that they talked about it with the people from 20/20, which allowed the show to imply that they were just sexual people who hadn't met the right person.

Which isn't what happened at all, and it wasn't their fault the way that the media chose to twist their statements, and the whole argument / chasing thing was still very sad and uncalled for. But there was more to it than "OMG SEX IS BAD".

Talking about sexual experimentation on the forums themselves is (I would like to think) a slightly different kettle of fish.

[Revenge of Rain]

I'm no longer asking, "does anyone else feel this way," or other general questions that anyone can helpfully respond to. I'm wondering about relationships and theory and things in the context of asexuality; my questions would mostly depend on input from others (elders) who've already settled into an asexual identity, or who identify otherwise but can provide perspective with an understanding of asexual identity. Given how people who've hammered out their asexual identities have a tendency to slip into the shadows, and how hardline labelling and bigotry seeps into so many threads, I'm not confident of getting a productive discussion in response.

If anyone's mean to you I'll beat em up for you, spinneret :lol:

[Dargon]

...Which isn't what happened at all, and it wasn't their fault the way that the media chose to twist their statements, and the whole argument / chasing thing was still very sad and uncalled for.

I seem to recall most of the discussion concerning that here was discussion of media spin.

[spinneret]

I might not be remembering it entirely correctly, I just remember there was kerfufflage and leaving.

And RoR, think instead you could calmly explain to them that's not how we do things around here? That'd take some of the weight off my shoulders. :)

I suppose more people are interested in delving into the deeper questions of asexual identity and boundaries than I thought. Coolness. I'll have to start thinking of seeder questions. I still don't know how personal I'm comfortable getting, but I'd love to get into some good practical and theoretical discussion again.

So hey--back on topic, sort of--how do you folks feel about the old typing system, and is there a good way to incorporate it, or what it embodied, in our current discourse about asexuality?

I don't think we should have the types up on the front page or anything, but I do think we can use it as a guide in order to discuss how asexuals vary, and to help us describe our individual orientations. Where do we fit it in, then?

[Jesh]

kerfufflage

hee.

So hey--back on topic, sort of--how do you folks feel about the old typing system, and is there a good way to incorporate it, or what it embodied, in our current discourse about asexuality?

I don't think we should have the types up on the front page or anything, but I do think we can use it as a guide in order to discuss how asexuals vary, and to help us describe our individual orientations. Where do we fit it in, then?

I think the type system may be useful in explaining how diverse we are, especially if we also use a disclaimer when talking about the type system that not every asexual person fits into a single specific type, and there is overlap and that's okay and etc.

[ghosts]

I'm late getting in here, and I apologize. But Keith, I do so love you for posting this.

Some of the anti-sexual posts that I've noticed on here as of late have bothered me, although I try to be understanding because, as others have mentioned (G-Bird, I believe), a lot of people come in here with negative experiences/reactions from sexual people, and are bitter. It's always good when there are other people on AVEN who are there to gently (yet firmly?) counter these sorts of views. Basically, I just don't like seeing insults being directed towards sexual people.

And, I am one who, I guess, falls into sort of a gray category. I've questioned my choice of identification before- as have a few other people on this board in the past, heh heh. :P But anyway- I'm a sexually active asexual, and it can be sort of frustrating seeing some of the anti-sex posts that will pop up on occasion. It's always nice to see threads/posts like these. :)

[Coleslaw]

Also late in jumping in here, but I must say. Wow.

Keith, thank you so much for putting this down into words. I think AVEN needed this more than anything else at the moment. For the first time in a long time, I feel like I am reading something productive and intelligent and full of the spirit I imagined I'd find here.

I am, by no means at all, an elder, but when I joined AVEN, I joined because of the general openness that the forum had to offer. In my first few months, I posted tons. I read everything. It was a wonderful chance for me to play with my sexuality (And, yes, I agree whole-heartedly that being asexual is not lacking sexuality, but merely a different sexuality).

I, too, have seen a general trend of anti-sexual sentiments. I burnt myself out in fighting choose_abstinence on the issue, so now a days, I just don't even feel like speaking up. I've stopped checking most of AVEN's forums all-together, because I feel old in the presence of some extremely juvenile comments. Honestly, some days I feel like I am watching grade-school students scream "COOTIES!" And it has prevented me from coming on to AVEN and further playing with, shaping, and understanding my sexuality.

I'm sorry--this has all been said before, in much more elegant and friendly terms than I can muster--but I really just felt the need to speak up and support the idea of change for a sex-positive forum once again.

[Cacille]

So hey--back on topic, sort of--how do you folks feel about the old typing system, and is there a good way to incorporate it, or what it embodied, in our current discourse about asexuality?

I don't think we should have the types up on the front page or anything, but I do think we can use it as a guide in order to discuss how asexuals vary, and to help us describe our individual orientations. Where do we fit it in, then?

I think the type system may be useful in explaining how diverse we are, especially if we also use a disclaimer when talking about the type system that not every asexual person fits into a single specific type, and there is overlap and that's okay and etc.

I had one idea. At first i was thinking that we should have a "I'm asexual - what do I do now?" page, but then I realized that it would be very limiting. This started the thought though: Do we have a Aven History page?

If we don't, we should start one that explains the beginnings of Aven from what DJ did to start the page, to the classification system, to the reorganizing of the Aven "triangle", implemetation of talks, project team, etc. If we do, maybe a re-organization of it might be feasible and helpful.

A Aven history page may give people a better perspective of how far the asexuality movement has come, along with getting them to see the classification system (in which they will most likely classify themselves there and then, but also teach them what other types of asexuals there are GENERALLY) and the expansion into what we do now. We could end the page with descriptions of current major ongoing projects (Avenues, lecture-giving, Pamphlet/Book, whatever) that they are welcome to get involved in should they feel comfortable with it.

We would end up killing quite a few....bugs....with one stone. Show them our history, teaching the old class system that, apparently, is still needed more than we realized, and getting them involved, all with ONE document.

[Placebo]

Wow, this thread is the most fun that I've found to read in a long time. You guys are amazing!

see, but. . .I do still need AVEN sometimes. And I don't feel like I have anywhere to go now. I'm comfortable with my identity and where I am in general, but sometimes I'm insecure about stuff or would like relationship advice or whatnot, and I don't feel like I can come here for that anymore now that I'm supposed to be the authority. I'm asexual, but that doesn't mean sexual behavior is out of the question. I feel like I'd have to defend myself, which is ridiculous.

I . . . kind of agree. And I admit that I've been in almost the same rut lately. I've been having issues, trying to resolve some of my thoughts about "What am I? How do I fit in the universe?" and failing miserably. And for whatever reason (and for one of the first times in a long time) I didn't "hear" anyone on AVEN saying the same things that I was thinking. And I was a little afraid to suggest such things myself, for fear that I'd misidentified myself, or that I really was a late bloomer and now would be left all alone to try and navigate the shoals of a burgeoning sexuality myself. (Not that it would be bad, just terrifically confusing at this point in my life). And I'd completely forgotten about the ABCD system, even though I'd read it before. --Fortunately, I'm now simmering back down to my normal complacency. For better or worse.

Cacille, I love your history idea. And to whomever suggested the elders idea, I like that too. It's already sort of unofficially in place, could we just almost make something like the crush list or something and sort of nominate people that we look up to as elders? Kind of like that cool karma thing that we had on the temporary page once. Or perhaps we don't need to formalize anything, but it might be a little fun.

I realized something last night, which I think is what my frustration boils down to. We are becoming what Joy Davidson said we were: we are becoming a place where people come to shut down, and normalize their phobic or avoidant behavior.

Yeep. *wince* I hope not. But I can see what you're saying. At least we see it happening and can fix it. . . right?

I love AVEN because it's a place to explore all these questions of sexuality and asexuality and identity and relationships, to talk about how different we could all be while all sharing in a common identity.

Yes, I love all those discussions. And I loved all the discussions about relationships that ghosts was having, and that everyone else has--Hallu, spin, Chiaroscuro--but it seems like for a bit we got so confused about the infinity of relationships that are possible that it became too open ended to be used for constructive conversation and we all had to take an extended breather on that subject.

And in that sense, although it's true that yes, sometimes new people come onto the boards and are a bit bitter and upset and anti-sexual, they're also a great resource because they are thinking about things in a new way and they're excited and they're exploring sexuality in all its derivatives. So this is absolutely a good thing, we're just overlooking some of the positive bits, or else not encouraging each other and our differences and diversities as much as we could, perhaps.

[Cacille]

Cacille, I love your history idea.

Thanks!

And to whomever suggested the elders idea, I like that too.

Uhm...that was me too. ::ROFL::

[Placebo]

Cacille, I love your history idea.

Thanks!

And to whomever suggested the elders idea, I like that too.

Uhm...that was me too. ::ROFL::

:oops: :oops: :oops:

Oh.

Well. . . .good job!! I liked it!

:lol:

[PollyB]

This thread is wonderful and I've been wondering for ages what I want to say in it. Thanks Keith, thanks Cacille for the elders idea, thanks Placebo for reminding us that new people's energy can be positive.

I'm less sure, for me, about the history idea as a solution, only because I assume it would be an addition to the front page or Wiki or something, and there's lots of good stuff there already which new people don't seem to read (although of course we should encourage them to). There isn't really an alternative to challenging ideas on the threads because that's where people are - even though I'm still not good at it.

I'm "middle period" really - I feel like I joined soon after the stage when Aven was small enough for everyone to feel part of the same discussion, but before the huge growth brought on by Montel, and I feel a bit like Osito that we have to work with who we are now. I went into the then-new Older forum because I thought I was supposed to, on age group terms - I didn't find any "elders" there, and some of the discussions were difficult for me in a different way. It's calmed down now, but I found the people I wanted to talk to, because of their ideas, weren't older but were people like ghosts and spinneret.

And I really do want to keep saying we're a diverse community without a classification system, which I still dislike and feel I don't fit, even though it ended before my time. In a lot of ways I still like that Aven came out of the queer idea that human sexual identity is infinitely variable, but I think that's a minority view in Aven at the moment and that's OK.

However, another aspect of all this that worries me is the recurring nature/nurture business of whether asexuality is "genetic". I don't want to attack anyone for believing that (although again I'm on the "infinitely variable" side of the fence) and I know a lot of established Aven members do believe that. But it's not even an open discussion any more, it's become a bit fixed, so that among newer people anyone who thinks they might have been partly affected by experiences can get jumped on and patronised. I think it needs to be an open discussion again.

[ghosts]

Yeah Wordwitch, you've mentioned some of my uneasiness with the old classification system, although I can definitely understand where other people are coming from in why they might want to bring it back.

As for the nature/nurture conversations that tend to emphasize a genetic basis- yes, I do agree with you. It would be nice to have more discussions where this was a more open topic, although I have been in threads around here where people have expressed different kinds of views on this subject and weren't yelled at or anything.

[emmarainbow]

I had one idea. At first i was thinking that we should have a "I'm asexual - what do I do now?" page

We should still have this. And written on it would be 'whatever feels right for you.'

I do agree with the classification system being limiting and so on, but if it isn't used I find that I start worrying that I could be sexual due to being a pretty strong C. :? I don't want people to think they are limited to them though - I don't think that we all fit exactly into one or the other, nor do I want people to feel limited by the choice. I *do* say, quite often, that all of sexuality is a sliding scale. But I think it is needed to remind people what is possible and comes under the big ol' umbrella that is asexuality... particularly those who are insecure, new or easily distracted by shiney things... *spots a butterfly and runs after it*

[Dame du Lac]

This is an excellent thread and reminds me of when I first read through many of the old threads before joining. I won't go into how important those threads were to me here as I've just posted about it in Hallu's thread about gray-asexual classifications.

There is definitely an issue here with some of the threads being very negative and not many positive responses being posted to them. It would certainly have put me off if I had only started exporing the site in the last couple of months. I do take Coleslaw's point though about the time spent replying to posts by choose_abstinence; he was posting around the time I joined and a great number of people were responding, extremely patiently in my view, something I could never bring myself to do. But if we don't make the effort, then we will lose the interest of people who are unsure about their sexual feelings and romantic desires and who would have benefitted from being here and expressing those doubts in a safe haven. Furthermore, if people don't feel they can ask questions without fully identifying themselves as asexual and not interested at all, then as Spinneret says, the site will confirm itself as what Joy Davidson said it was - a place where those who are dysfunctional, scared, inexperienced or whatever come to have those problems validated when they should be taking a good hard look at these issues to find their root causes.

Furthermore, if there are no "intellectual" discussions about sexuality issues, representations in the media or about scientific research etc. then it's going to be hard to suggest that asexuality should be taken seriously as a reseach subject. And dicussions about relationships, how they work for asexual people, how, when and why asexual people sometimes have sex (something that probably seems counter-intuitive to most people), how asexuality effects our lives and non-sexual relationships, all give visitors, sex-therapists, pyschologists, journalists and any other interested parties, a resource to draw on.

Now I feel morally obliged to actually start a thread! (Something I've only ever done in the Welcome Forum. :oops: )

[Zanzibel]

Thank you for such a good post, Keith, and consequently, a great thread. My eyes are drooping so this may be quite disjointed, but I'm fairly new here and I have to say, i'm so glad I found this community. When any community grows you're going to get diversity of ideas and feelings, but it's important that there's room for everyone's thoughts, and that opinions and feelings of some people don't affect anyone, as it seems to be the case: It's sad that some don't visit much anymore because of this 'antisexuality'. As I think people have mentioned, I don't think those members can be frowned upon, because it is a case of people finding their feet - people who have felt excluded from the sexual world and are trying to find some comfort in finding people who feel the same. I understand people's distaste of 'antisexuality' threads (I tend not to read most of them), but to what extent can we say what is ok to post? People need to be able to vent their feelings, but it is a shame that it's affecting other people and perhaps confusing some new members about what it 'is' to be asexual.

The good thing about AVEN, though, is that there IS room for everyone. There IS this huge diversity... and on the whole, from what i've seen, the majority of the members are extremely understanding, tolerant and supportive.. There's a lot of wisdom in this place.

I haven't finished reading the thread so am probably repeating and/or ignoring stuff that's already been said, but as a newbie I both sympathise with you oldies' feelings on the matter, and am extremely grateful for threads like this. And just, AVEN in general.

[Olivier]

Just another thought...

It's been noted that many of the posts that Keith mentioned as being anti-sexuality seem also to be from posters who seem immature and inexperienced. Now there's no crime in that (hell I was plenty immature once long, long ago) but as a father of three young kids I recognise how wearying being bombarded with immature attitudes can be.

Would a "Younger Asexuals" forum (like the one for Older Asexuals) be useful? Again, it could be more about attitude and maturity than notches on the calendar, and perhaps it could create a space for the young and questioning where they could be less self-conscious and defensive about what they haven't learnt yet. Perhaps it could be identified specifically as a place where younger members could come to ask for mentoring or insight from those older members who'd been through similar situations before.

[roddy9uk]

Just another thought...

Would a "Younger Asexuals" forum (like the one for Older Asexuals) be useful? Again, it could be more about attitude and maturity than notches on the calendar, and perhaps it could create a space for the young and questioning where they could be less self-conscious and defensive about what they haven't learnt yet. Perhaps it could be identified specifically as a place where younger members could come to ask for mentoring or insight from those older members who'd been through similar situations before.

The only problem (and maybe "only" but a massive one) is that those concerned rarely recognise themselves as being either younger or immature!

[Hallucigenia]

Would a "Younger Asexuals" forum (like the one for Older Asexuals) be useful? Again, it could be more about attitude and maturity than notches on the calendar, and perhaps it could create a space for the young and questioning where they could be less self-conscious and defensive about what they haven't learnt yet. Perhaps it could be identified specifically as a place where younger members could come to ask for mentoring or insight from those older members who'd been through similar situations before.

This was suggested some time ago, for vastly different reasons (I think it was more of an "Oh, the older asexuals have a forum to themselves, why not the younger ones?").

There are at least two problems. I forget the first one, but the second one is that if we specifically make space saying "Hi kids! Come in here if you are kids!" then that could be construed as "recruiting" which is not very good.

[Olivier]

Yep these are problems, but that's why I thought that it could be positioned as a mentoring place.

Not "come in here if you are kids", but "come in here if you want advice from people with more experience with asexuality-related issues".

I guess some of the other forums already perform this function well.