Completely unique and yet utterly familiar...sexual wife, presumed ace (& gray/aro?) husband

[exhausted pigeon]

Hi. I found this site last week and have since pored over the SPFA section...before I share my story, I just wanted to thank so many longterm members for the generosity, grace, eloquence, authentic sharing and kindness that fills these pages. I have learnt so much since discovering SPFA, have cried so much (even more than before! how am I not a tumbleweed by now?) discovered things that pertain to my relationship that made me feel so relieved, and realised things that absolutely shattered my heart. I also feel like I know some of you, after following your journeys (that parasocial weirdness!) So thank you! 

 

My husband and I have been together 30 years, married for 22. We have 18yo twin boys (A & C) who are in their final year of high school. I am sexual and have recently realised husband is asexual and possibly also gray/aromantic (still mulling this bit over). I say realised because it fits so thoroughly, but isn't a term he's used or (to my knowledge) aware of in relation to himself as for him it is a strictly "never had or been interested in sex" style narrow definition. It's not something I've discussed with him yet - though am planning to in couples' counselling. 

 

We haven't had sex for 15 years, and non sexual physical intimacy and emotional connection is next to non existent. 

 

We started off - like so many couples here - reasonably sexually active, but it dropped off quickly. I took the rejections hard and internalised a lot of it, and after a while I took to eating my feelings and gained weight. This gave him a convenient excuse/rationale for not wanting sex which I further internalised, tried harder to prove myself worthy, hurt more...it's a familiar setup. I felt (and still feel to an extent) shame about not being "good enough" or "worthy" (I have my own issues there stemming from abandonment/trauma/SA as a child etc. People pleasing plays a bit part too) Looking back now I suspect there might also have been a bit of shame on his part on his changing sexuality (changing? becoming aware of it?)  which was more easily handled by blaming someone else rather than looking inward (I appreciate this is supposition...at this point.)

 

Unfortunately I can be a bit confrontation avoidant and since he tends to go on the attack when he feels criticised I pussyfooted around the issue for too long. Bringing it up - we'd often have an argument, there'd be tears, and then we'd talk and there'd be a promise to "try more". Cue the 🦗. Rinse and repeat. I probably didn't put my foot down nearly early enough (the joys of hindsight), and I own the fact that my inability to bring non violent communication to the fore, as well as being more clear about my expectations and needs, would not have helped matters either. That said I was still firmly stuck in the "this is my fault and I just need to make myself worthy" clusterfuck too. fun times. 

 

This cycle continued and continued until about 12 years ago - 3 years after we'd last attempted sex/sexual activity (our kids were 3 when we were last intimate and we'd attempted sex twice since they'd been conceived) when I'd been rejected enough and I backed off. by this stage non physical touch and emotional intimacy was getting quite sporadic too. I think at the time I foolishly hoped giving him space might make things easier for him to make the move. Dear reader, it did not. 

Gosh, writing this out makes me feel so ignorant for letting things go on for so freaking long!!! (anyone else give themselves a hard time about this? I know it's something I'm working on - giving myself grace- but sheesh for an intelligent person I do feel a bit dense and deliberately self-blinkered!)

 

We've had one of those incredibly stressful few decades. All the usual stuff that everyone else in the world has dealt with but also loss of a child (he would have been 20, died during birth), moved internationally 5 times, lived in 12 houses since the kids were born, deaths of parents, huge career/ job upsets, financial and health issues, etc etc. One of our amazing boys came out as trans 5 years ago, and has subsequently also been diagnosed with anxiety and autism. (I'm adding this to the upheaval section not because it was a negative - he's bloody amazing and the world is nearly as lucky as we are to have him be his true self - but just because it was an incredibly stressful process that included self harm, suicide attempts, extreme body dysphoria and so so much medical stuff  whilst we got him where he needed to be)

 

Our boys are amazing, they've always been the 2 students fighting it out for top academic spots, they're sporting and community leaders, the type of young people we're always being complimented about, and are just decent kind and loving intersectional feminists. I'm proud. I've also always been primary parent and the role has increasingly fallen to me. Especially the emotional/ psychological aspects, though to be fair also the practical boots-on-the-ground stuff. The past few years have also been really intense on that front, especially as we navigate things with and for A - I'm more involved with his health and schooling than I would normally expect to be at this age since he is online schooling from home and I'm his "supervisor"...plus he ended up taking a year's break from school after things got very dark and hard, so needs a bit more reassurance he's on the right track as it really knocked his confidence (small traditional town and unsupportive school meant his in person school experience was really tough. He was - and is - a fierce community youth leader and advocate for rainbow youth, but it was a perpetual battle at school, and of course ended up with a lot of animosity aimed at him since he was the one with his head above the parapet). A also struggled with verbalising things for a while around the autism diagnosis, combined with crippling anxiety, so he would ask me to tag along to things so I could interpret...taking masks off is hard...especially when they've been duct taped on for survival! C is still attending the inperson school (much easier for a cishet dude!) and he is definitely getting ready to spread his wings - he's heading off to university next year at what feels like the other end of the country. A will be with us for a bit yet while he figures out what he wants to do. I anticipate he'll do some tertiary study too, but still trying to narrow it down.

Allllllllllll that to say we've sort of been in survival mode for the past few years so "dealing with the relationship" was something I kept putting on the back burner until I had the emotional bandwidth to properly approach it, and with the understanding that it would take a decent chunk of time to get us to a point to be able to openly communicate with each other well enough to kindly navigate these waters, safely be vulnerable with each other, and hopefully get some meaningful discussion started. Whilst slowly getting more and more miserable and isolated. The time has still not arrived but I have been trying to introduce the idea of talking seriously about our relationship by gently bringing up that we need to work on our communication because I feel like I am carrying too much of the emotional load of the family, and am very lonely emotionally, physically and sexually (whilst acknowledging I do not want to have sex with husband - too much baggage, too many hurtful rejections. This option is no longer appealing). This is compounded by some recently diagnosed and increasingly tricky autoimmune and chronic illness issues for me (yay!) and it was all just getting too much - I think I'd repressed my needs for so long that I just got to the point where I just couldn't anymore. 

 

We ended up having a flash fire argument last month (the type that starts over something so minor that you can't even remember the source!) and wowsers did that volcano I've been keeping a lid on explode!! It was not great. The long and the short of it is we both said some hurtful things but I basically said "engage in this relationship or I'm out of here once the kids are finished high school". I also said that looking back we should never have gotten married or had kids together because it was obvious he wasn't able to give the emotional, physical or sexual commitment he signed up for. I'm ashamed of that last part because it was hurtful and unproductive, even if it is also true.

 

We avoided each other for the next 48 hours. I ended up opening the conversation via messenger (hoping we could communicate a little more effectively this way, without the "in person" factor) and started a conversation. His second response was to suggest we seek some couples counselling. I agreed enthusiastically and asked that he organise it (as a sign he was genuinely interested in working towards a solution, since it's almost exclusively me doing the chasing)...we've just had our second session...we have 6 paid for by his employment (it's an anonymous benefit part of his employment package). Whilst I have no illusions that we'll magically have everything solved in 6 hours, it has been a good start, and I gently opened the (written) conversation again after the 2nd session, with the hopes that we can continue the work and actually make some meaningful progress...husband seems to be a bit "just pretend it doesn't exist" outside of sessions and it's really important to me that he actually participates and that we start opening those lines outside of counselling because otherwise what's the point? I realised perhaps I hadn't communicated clearly enough this exact sentiment, so I did that in writing, and included some questions for him to answer if he was comfortable, stressing I was coming from. place of desire for us to find some commonalities, not to judge or for a "gotcha" moment  (and offered to answer them for him as well if he wanted me to) to help us see where we each see the relationship etc. 

 

One thing I did say at our last session was that out of emotional intimacy, non sexual physical touch and sexual intimacy, I thought I could continue with the relationship if I at least had the emotional intimacy and (hopefully also) the non sexual physical touch. He said he's be prepared to consider emotional intimacy and possibly non sexual physical touch. Since then though I've realised that actually that's not going to work for me. It's going to make me less miserable, but still miserable, and frankly, it's still not good enough. I also don't want to be in a relationship where the other partner feels obligated or needs to be prompted to provide emotional intimacy, physical touch etc. Especially if it seems like it's something that not only doesn't come naturally to him but that he doesn't consider important at all. Husband is a really good human, and a kind person, but clearly I'm not getting any of my needs met. We've done it the way that he is clearly happy with and I can't do that anymore.

 

And...that's where we are now. As far as I can see, of the 4 doors, there aren't many realistic options for us - we've done celibacy - and whilst he's clearly quite contented to continue on, I definitely cannot do that anymore. Compromise is only available for emotional and ns physical touch, and I have reservations about that being a workable solution for me longterm if I want any chance of fulfilment. Then there's ENM or separation. Honestly, I'd never considered ENM until finding these forums but it is theoretically a consideration. Since I am not sure I'd be suited to just casual hookups - I'm an all-in, love makes sex better kind of person - and because I am very self-conscious and feel ashamed of my body (lots of work on this, but I need to acknowledge it's here) I can't see that being an easy solution, even if he's open to it, which I suspect he wouldn't be. Frankly I'm not sure it's a viable option thinking about it since I don't know I'd still be here if finances allowed me to make a move - it's not like the emotional connection is there, try as I might to fan the flames. I  don't blame him for having a different operating system, but I'm so sad his refusal to look at himself and our relationship (and how I'm clearly miserable) or to acknowledge these things has led us all the way here, instead of potentially being able to work on things earlier. I'm nervous about the only remaining viable option - separation - and how that would look in reality when we are likely going to need to continue cohabiting for a year or so at least. oof. 

(I'm in the process of trying to secure another job in addition to my almost-full-time-but-definitely-not-fulltime-salary home based business to give me more autonomy - this working from home for myself setup worked for us as it gave me more flexibility with kid responsibilities - especially in the past few years. the job market however is diabolical and I am - ironically - way overqualified for most of the jobs that I can fit in without pushing myself too far. It hasn't stopped me applying, but it has been mentioned asa reason for my lack of success with applications. so. much. fun)

 

OMG what a novella... and I feel like I've barely scratched the surface. Hi, I'm a perpetually exhausted pigeon, who's a little relieved to properly understand the potential rationale behind our relationship dynamics, a lot relieved to find such an amazing resource and reassurance in SPFA, and quite heartbroken that there is no easy solution.  Thank you for letting me rabbit on, and send this out into the ether. 

Edited June 30, 2024 by exhausted pigeon
typos. so many typos.

[BJandBillie]

Ours may be somewhat of a different situation, but my partner and I started living together as "Asexual & Eunuch" and that has continued for many years now. Thanks for sharing.

[Traveler40]

Welcome to AVEN! I’m both happy and sorry to see you’ve found your way here. ♥️

 

So much of what you write about your relationship with your husband resonates with me. One thing that was near impossible to get through my thick skull was the realization that it’s never going to change. He is who he is. I’m sorry. 
 

There’s not much else I can offer by way of support as you have a good handle on all of this already. Know that you’re not alone, you are seen and heard here and keep evolving. 

Ah, so many thoughts though as I sit here thinking on what you wrote. I also felt ignorant and ashamed when I finally broke the seal and confronted my husband with inconvenient truths. Yes, it hurts to verbalize that which we’ve ignored as a matter of convenience and simplicity. 

 

It’s time to figure it out for yourself. Maybe nothing visible changes for a while, but the internal engine is now moving, and that’s a start. It’s life giving and affirming in valuable ways. 
 

Again, welcome. I’m glad you’re here! 💕

[Sarah-Sylvia]

@exhausted pigeonThanks for sharing your story. I'm not a sexual partner but it's still something to learn what others go through. I'm glad the forum helped you think through some things. It's still hard for me to understand how someone would go in a marriage but then not connect emotionally and intimately, but I guess you could be right that he could be on the aro spectrum. I also probably shouldn't impose anything on him but it got me wondering also if maybe he has some autistic traits as well. Anyway, I don't think it's a bad thing to work on sharing emotional and non-sexual physical intimacy together as long as he's willing to, but what I'm most curious about is what he thinks around it. Like is intimacy and affection something he just did out of norms at first and then realized he only cared about the companionship? Either way you know what's important to you so I hope you do follow your heart for what makes most sense to you.

[Olallieberry]

Welcome, @exhausted pigeon, let us know what we can do to help. Congratulations for recognizing the validity of everything you've been experiencing and your feelings about it all, and daring to start the process of getting somewhere different. So much of what you say is so relatable and real. Especially the parts about how what's going wrong in the relationship isn't even all about the sex.

[uhtred]

I'm sorry you are in this situation - "sorry" doesn't cover it of course,  the decades long unhappiness that this sort of mismatch can cause, and the way that can make everything else fall apart, and how it casts a cloud over life can't really be described.  I'm also in a long term sexual / asexual marriage, I'm the sexual partner so I have some idea of what you have been experiencing. 

 

For me, learning that asexuality existed helped a lot - it let me realize that the problem wasn't me - I'd spent so long trying to figure out what I was doing wrong that my wife never desired me. I never even realized that anyone could be attracted to me.   I've no learned nothing is wrong with me - or with my wife, we are just the way we are. 

 

Interesting you say you are a "people pleaser", I am as well, and I wonder if that is a contributor to staying in long term unhappy marriages - the desire to not have our partners think badly of us for leaving. 

 

As you say, your options are limited, but at least YOU can choose which option to take:

 

1) Stay as things are,  living in a sexless, probably romance-free marriage.   If you do, I suggest fully accepting that,  moving into separate bedrooms helped me a lot -  it helped me accept that sex was no longer part of the relationship, that I was basically living with my sister.   Don't hope he will change - after all this time its extremely unlikely. 

 

2). Compromise.  Sometimes this works, but at least for me the idea that my partner needs to compromise is just too depressing for words.  I think my wife does think she is compromising, doing a few sexual things occasionally - but in some ways its worse than nothing, feeling like I'm a "chore" she deals with

 

3) Finding another partner (with our without his permission - I'd never judge someone in this situation).  I think the issue there is whether sex with someone else would actually give you what you need, or if you find sex / love / romance all combined, and it wouldn't actually help, or maybe make you fall for your new partner - leading to #4.

 

4) Leave. Rationally this is the best answer. You find someone who makes you happy. He finds someone compatible (he is likely also unhappy because he knows you are). Its also so difficult - and I haven't done  it.

 

They are all bad choices, but they are what you have, and choosing none is choosing #1.   Please don't allow yourself the false hope that it will just get better . (I say, having failed at that myself over and over and over again).

 

Feel free to PM, though all I can offer is sympathy and someone to talk to in a similar situation. 

[Olallieberry]

2 hours ago, exhausted pigeon said:

I took to eating my feelings and gained weight. This gave him a convenient excuse/rationale for not wanting sex

I can't tell you how shitty this is. It's not as bad as a situation I read about here recently, where the sexual partner told their ace partner they couldn't get excited for "sex" with an obviously reluctant and disengaged partner, so, the partner turned it around on them and called them the one who didn't want sex in the relationship and the one who is doing the rejecting. Complete deflection, gaslighting and projection. This isn't as bad as that but it immediately made me think of it. And I know it was years ago, for you, and I hope your husband's behavior has gotten better than that since then, but it sure sounds like you have a tough row to hoe, here.

[Ceebs]

I don't have a whole lot useful to add that hasn't been said by a few others already, but hi and welcome.  It's a very good thing you've found this place and it seems you've done plenty of reading through others' stories already.

 

'exhausted pigeon' seems like a fitting username after all you've been through lately and are still dealing with. Aside from the relationship and family issues, the chronic illness/autoimmune things too... I understand all too well how much of a toll that type of stuff takes. Hopefully things are beginning an even slightly upwards trajectory now that you're out of the depths of 'survival mode'.

 

I totally get the hesitancy with ENM. I've absolutely seen it work well for a few other couples where the sexual partner is very much the 'sex and love go together' sort so I know it's possible sometimes, but yeah I understand why it might be pretty difficult for many. My line of thinking was always that if I find someone else I want to be having sex with, it's invariably going to involve a meaningful emotional connection that probably leads to love... and in that case why bother staying in the relationship at all, especially as by that point it was entirely platonic? There were no kids involved for me, but the financial situation and living arrangements were tricky and complicated by health issues. Aaaaanyway... that's no longer presently relevant since my marriage did indeed come to an end (after separation we lived together a while, since you mentioned that aspect too -- and oddly enough, my ex is living with me temporarily right now for the next few months, three years post-divorce and six post-separation, while dealing with some major life changes) and everything is fine between us and in a very different place now, but yep... I get that inner conflict and line of thinking for sure.

 

Again, welcome. Glad you've found SPFA.  

[Qiri]

Hi, and welcome to AVEN. I'm so sorry it is under these circumstances, but I'm glad that you've found somewhere to share your story and feel seen and heard. I hope you can find what you want or need here. There are quite a few people here who are the allosexual partner in a relationship with an asexual partner - I hope they can provide helpful advice and support. ♥️ 

[exhausted pigeon]

7 hours ago, JoyandJune said:

Ours may be somewhat of a different situation, but my partner and I started living together as "Asexual & Eunuch" and that has continued for many years now. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you. I'm glad you've found a solution that works for you both.

[exhausted pigeon]

8 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

I also felt ignorant and ashamed when I finally broke the seal and confronted my husband with inconvenient truths. Yes, it hurts to verbalize that which we’ve ignored as a matter of convenience and simplicity. 

 

It’s time to figure it out for yourself. Maybe nothing visible changes for a while, but the internal engine is now moving, and that’s a start. It’s life giving and affirming in valuable ways. 

Thank you @Traveler40 - I really appreciate it. Your thread is the first full one I read. And wow - what a journey! I am so happy for you that you've managed to carve out a fulfilling and joyous existence, even though I know it is far from simple or easy. Your thread was responsible for so many "a ha!" moments. Not all of them great, but all helpful. 

 

I had to quote the above bit from your message - it's all so rough, but also a reminder to myself that the internal engine moving is really important and it can sustain me for a while. I don't have to race straight to the huge cataclysmic changes today, or this month. Thank you. 

 

[exhausted pigeon]

7 hours ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

@exhausted pigeonThanks for sharing your story. I'm not a sexual partner but it's still something to learn what others go through. I'm glad the forum helped you think through some things. It's still hard for me to understand how someone would go in a marriage but then not connect emotionally and intimately, but I guess you could be right that he could be on the aro spectrum. I also probably shouldn't impose anything on him but it got me wondering also if maybe he has some autistic traits as well. Anyway, I don't think it's a bad thing to work on sharing emotional and non-sexual physical intimacy together as long as he's willing to, but what I'm most curious about is what he thinks around it. Like is intimacy and affection something he just did out of norms at first and then realized he only cared about the companionship? Either way you know what's important to you so I hope you do follow your heart for what makes most sense to you.

Thank you!

So many good points in your comment. 

Yeah I'm completely baffled by the notion of "how someone would go in a marriage but then not connect emotionally and intimately" either...and I think that that both blindsided me for longer but also fed more into my sense of inadequacies, which made me more reticent to take action and round and round. 

 

I shall think more on the Autistic traits...that's a good point. 

 

And actually thank you so much for the comment about it not being a bad thing to work on sharing emotional and NS physical intimacy because since I realised that - being completely honest - this wouldn't actually solve anything for me, I had started to wonder whether we should be attempting any of it, or whether he'd simply decide to completely withdraw and not bother at all. It's still worth trying if for no other reason than to practise better communication which can only serve us well in the future right? 

And I'm going to investigate further about his feelings/thoughts around intimacy and affection - thank you so much for raising that.

 

[exhausted pigeon]

8 hours ago, Olallieberry said:

let us know what we can do to help. 

Honestly @Olallieberry, your presence here has already been such a help. I read your thread end to end too, and it was so sad, and hopeful, heartwarming and hard. Your thread is actually the one that made me seriously question whether I continue in a relationship without meaningful emotional connection - your relationship with your wife was a good litmus test for me. 

 

And yeah, the sex is really important but it's all those other things that tip the scales even more isn't it.

[exhausted pigeon]

7 hours ago, Mrs Telecaster-to-be said:

I don't have a whole lot useful to add that hasn't been said by a few others already, but hi and welcome.  It's a very good thing you've found this place and it seems you've done plenty of reading through others' stories already.

 

'exhausted pigeon' seems like a fitting username after all you've been through lately and are still dealing with. Aside from the relationship and family issues, the chronic illness/autoimmune things too... I understand all too well how much of a toll that type of stuff takes. Hopefully things are beginning an even slightly upwards trajectory now that you're out of the depths of 'survival mode'.

 

I totally get the hesitancy with ENM. I've absolutely seen it work well for a few other couples where the sexual partner is very much the 'sex and love go together' sort so I know it's possible sometimes, but yeah I understand why it might be pretty difficult for many. My line of thinking was always that if I find someone else I want to be having sex with, it's invariably going to involve a meaningful emotional connection that probably leads to love... and in that case why bother staying in the relationship at all, especially as by that point it was entirely platonic? There were no kids involved for me, but the financial situation and living arrangements were tricky and complicated by health issues. Aaaaanyway... that's no longer presently relevant since my marriage did indeed come to an end (after separation we lived together a while, since you mentioned that aspect too -- and oddly enough, my ex is living with me temporarily right now for the next few months, three years post-divorce and six post-separation, while dealing with some major life changes) and everything is fine between us and in a very different place now, but yep... I get that inner conflict and line of thinking for sure.

 

Again, welcome. Glad you've found SPFA.  

Thank you so much @Mrs Telecaster-to-be...I just finished your giant thread in the wee hours of this morning. I'm excited for you - so close until the LDR becomes a very no-distance relationship!! 

Yeah... the username was not a fluke. 😬..if only ha! chronic illness/autoimmune things are a special little clusterfuck. I'm so sorry you're strapped into this ride too! 

 

I really appreciate your input, and your welcome - thank you! 

[exhausted pigeon]

11 hours ago, uhtred said:

For me, learning that asexuality existed helped a lot - it let me realize that the problem wasn't me - I'd spent so long trying to figure out what I was doing wrong that my wife never desired me. I never even realized that anyone could be attracted to me.   I've no learned nothing is wrong with me - or with my wife, we are just the way we are. 

 

Interesting you say you are a "people pleaser", I am as well, and I wonder if that is a contributor to staying in long term unhappy marriages - the desire to not have our partners think badly of us for leaving. 

 

Hi @uhtred and thank you! 

And yes, realising asexuality exists in this context has been really helpful, if for nothing other than to give my unreliable brain permission to absolve itself of being completely responsible. 

I suspect people pleasers have a tendency to end up in all sorts of mismatched-for-them relationships because we excel at putting everyone else's needs first! It's frustrating... ands obvious once it's pointed out! 

 

Quote

 

 

They are all bad choices, but they are what you have, and choosing none is choosing #1.   Please don't allow yourself the false hope that it will just get better . (I say, having failed at that myself over and over and over again).

Oh yes, I think I can safely say that I know with 100% accuracy this is not going to change. And frankly even if he had a sudden about-face overnight I wouldn't be comfortable having sex with him after all this water under the bridge and so many hurtful rejections... I mean, why would I do that to myself?!?

 

Quote

Feel free to PM, though all I can offer is sympathy and someone to talk to in a similar situation. 

Thank you - that is a kind and generous offer! 

[exhausted pigeon]

11 hours ago, Olallieberry said:

I can't tell you how shitty this is. It's not as bad as a situation I read about here recently, where the sexual partner told their ace partner they couldn't get excited for "sex" with an obviously reluctant and disengaged partner, so, the partner turned it around on them and called them the one who didn't want sex in the relationship and the one who is doing the rejecting. Complete deflection, gaslighting and projection. This isn't as bad as that but it immediately made me think of it. And I know it was years ago, for you, and I hope your husband's behavior has gotten better than that since then, but it sure sounds like you have a tough row to hoe, here.

um yeah, this reads almost identical. It's a shitty way of protecting his feelings (from having to feel or be vulnerable or acknowledge any responsibility)...but I think it's really important to remember that there hasn't been an awful lot of emotional growth from him in this regard so I need to manage my expectations carefully. I guess that feeds into why I'm anxious about how to approach the matter too...I don't want to have to deal with the intense reaction/fallout since his tendency is to deflect/gaslight/project when he feels uncomfortable. ugh he sounds like such an ogre when I write it like that. And it's true, but it's also only one part of him, Unfortunately it's a really important part for us to be able to forge a path forward. 

[exhausted pigeon]

9 hours ago, Qiri said:

Hi, and welcome to AVEN. I'm so sorry it is under these circumstances, but I'm glad that you've found somewhere to share your story and feel seen and heard. I hope you can find what you want or need here. There are quite a few people here who are the allosexual partner in a relationship with an asexual partner - I hope they can provide helpful advice and support. ♥️ 

Thank you @Qiri - it's been such a revelation to read through, and I'm vert grateful to have been so warmly welcomed! 

[exhausted pigeon]

Ha - that time limit (I appreciate having it from an anti spam perspective for newbies) is making me work for it! 

 

Thank you all for such a warm welcome! 

 

I'm a little stuck on what to do now... there's a part of me that wants to just get it all out in the open and hash it all out right now but I also know that this way lays chaos, and is completely unhelpful. I guess for me I just want to talk about it and I'm tired of gentling things along and from my perspective I've been waiting so long, so enough already. I will not be taking this route, lol. 

Instead I'm trying to work out how to gently progress things (with the help of the therapist as a means of keeping us on the right path and keeping it productive/non antagonistic) in a way that allows us to work through the concept of emotional and NS physical touch intimacy, but without scaring husband off or confronting him to the point where he locks up and stonewalls, it all devolves and we slide backwards rather than make any progress at all. To that end I'm anticipating for these counselling sessions (or certainly for the next few) that I don't even touch on asexuality unless it comes up organically. At the end of the day whether this is the case for husband or not (whether he agrees with the definition, with it applying to him etc etc) he's shown repeatedly and over a sustained period that he fits the definition for me on a practical level, so that's what I'm working with.*

 

I guess where I'm getting stuck is if I'm tending in this moment in time towards separation being the most likely final outcome here (with ENM a distant 2nd option if there's a massive uptick in emotional connection and NS physical touch...unlikely but I don't want to completely rule it out without giving him the chance - in good faith - to step up) then how do I navigate this? Some of the things I've been wondering about are where and how to start the conversation, or what to leave until later...

 

- absolutely the primary focus needs to be on us improving our communication styles and skills. No matter the outcome, these need to be better. For both of us.

- I think focussing on emotional intimacy (and to a much lesser extent, NS physical touch) would be helpful anyway as a means of helping us remember we're on the same side, so that  when it does come to the next step (because I'm no longer satisfied staying hovering this invisible box), there is more grace and understanding and less antagonism

- I've been thinking a lot about suggesting we have different bedrooms for a while. I'm not sure how he might interpret this but I think a space of our own might be helpful too. plus sharing a bed is increasingly uncomfortable for me. There's no physical contact but it's not relaxing. Maybe it would help with taking some of the pressure off as well - like there's no danger of any misinterpretation on my part if he made a NS physical touch approach in bed that I might consider it a sexual thing? (There's absolutely no risk of my reacting this way, but I'm thinking from the perspective of making it feel like a safe option for him. We could explain it to the kids as me needing my own space for a bit because sleeping is tough at the moment (true ) and his snoring makes it harder for me (also true). Frankly I'd also like to be able to have a private wank without factoring in that extra dynamic- I'm hardly ever home by myself so not having any space of my own adds to this frustration. I imagine this aspect would assist him too since he does masturbate (though it's a secret covert thing on his part - certainly not something he talks about, and I wouldn't be offering it as a reason just yet!)

- there were other things on this list but now I can't remember what they were going to be. I guess that's a pretty good sign it's time for bed. 

 

This is mostly just my rambling but any and all constructive suggestions welcomed! Thanks x

 

In outside-my-catastrophising-overworking-brain news, I had a new product launch today and it's usually open for preorders for a month, and takes close to that full period to sell capacity. It went live at midday and by 9pm I'd hit 35% of my total capacity. One less wolf at the door today!

And! I found out I can access some 1-on-1 counselling for myself as well. A quite limited number but for free and of course it means less choice about the therapist, but right now I'll take it! all crossable crossed the therapist/counsellor is an exceptional unicorn!

 Huzzah for today!!

 

*Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting someone should have the power to label others willy nilly. I'm saying that for the purposes of my clarity and for going forward, I'm going to act - until there is evidence from him to the contrary - on the presumption that he is ace, and romantic of some variety (I'm still learning about aro subtleties). To my mind this takes away the "blame game" but also allows for certainty and clarity for me moving forward. 

[uhtred]

I've never kept track of all the names for the variations of ace / aro, but you are right that there is a lot of range.  There is of course also a huge range in sexual people.

 

Separate bedrooms helped me a lot, though I don't know if this applies in your case. For me it was avoiding the misery of spending every night lying next to someone I desired but couldn't touch, a constant reminder of what I couldn't have.   Separate bedrooms makes it feel like I living with a family member, not a lover, and that is better.  Also as you say,  its an opportunity to take care of ones needs.

 

With respect to counseling, you need to be sure the counselor believes ace people exist.  Nothing is more frustrating and depressing than being told that you need to step back form any physical intimacy and slowly try to build a connection again, as if you partner will stop being ace if only you treat them will and give them time. (as if 20 years wasn't enough time). 

[Olallieberry]

4 hours ago, exhausted pigeon said:

sharing a bed is increasingly uncomfortable for me. There's no physical contact but it's not relaxing

My wife and I separated, bed-wise, many years before the sex issue started to really harm the relationship. Her sleep was critical to her health and quality of life, and sharing a bed was fucking it up.

 

If you want to consider separating beds and maybe rooms too, look up "bed divorce" and "sleep divorce." Those are dramatic-sounding phrases not meant to cause alarm or suggest that it's a slippery slope, they're just clever labels which have been used recently as the idea became trendy and started getting a lot of attention. So, it should be easy to do a little bit of research and find some persuasive arguments which don't exclusively focus on the intimacy implications.

[Traveler40]

On 6/30/2024 at 6:41 AM, exhausted pigeon said:

My husband and I have been together 30 years, married for 22. ... I am sexual and have recently realised husband is asexual and possibly also gray/aromantic (still mulling this bit over). I say realised because it fits so thoroughly,...

So, it all boils down to this. ☝ and 👇🏼

 

On 6/30/2024 at 6:41 AM, exhausted pigeon said:

We haven't had sex for 15 years, and non sexual physical intimacy and emotional connection is next to non existent. 

This latest post smacks of hope for change with him. You know all you need to know for that dynamic. 30 years is enough time to be able to communicate without dancing around it. That’s my belief, but I realize others feel/act/approach things differently. 
 

15 hours ago, exhausted pigeon said:

how do I navigate this? Some of the things I've been wondering about are where and how to start the conversation, or what to leave until later...

Begin. It’s as simple as that. I don’t know your husband, but with mine, stonewalling can be an effective tool to keep things his way. For me, it took hitting the wall to dash the false hope and grab the devil may care approach that moved us forward.

 

It’s anything but simple and fully nuanced. Everyone must operate as they see fit.
 

My wish for you is that you speak your truth, while exercising care, and not worry so much about him over yourself. You matter. Try not to lose sight of that or time. 

[exhausted pigeon]

16 hours ago, uhtred said:

Separate bedrooms helped me a lot, though I don't know if this applies in your case. For me it was avoiding the misery of spending every night lying next to someone I desired but couldn't touch, a constant reminder of what I couldn't have.   Separate bedrooms makes it feel like I living with a family member, not a lover, and that is better.  

I think I'm looking for the same outcome but coming at it from a different direction - I feel uncomfortable sharing a bed because I am no longer attracted to him sexually and as a result the space does not feel relaxing to me. Thank you for making me work that out though - it's helpful!

 

16 hours ago, uhtred said:

With respect to counseling, you need to be sure the counselor believes ace people exist.  Nothing is more frustrating and depressing than being told that you need to step back form any physical intimacy and slowly try to build a connection again, as if you partner will stop being ace if only you treat them will and give them time. (as if 20 years wasn't enough time). 

ugh yes! This would be actively unhelpful!

[exhausted pigeon]

14 hours ago, Olallieberry said:

If you want to consider separating beds and maybe rooms too, look up "bed divorce" and "sleep divorce."

 

--

 

So, it should be easy to do a little bit of research and find some persuasive arguments which don't exclusively focus on the intimacy implications.

This was super helpful - thank you! I've had a very Quick Look but I'm going to do a bit more reading because it could be very useful.

[exhausted pigeon]

15 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

This latest post smacks of hope for change with him. You know all you need to know for that dynamic. 30 years is enough time to be able to communicate without dancing around it. That’s my belief, but I realize others feel/act/approach things differently. 

This is valid. And thank you for making this comment. I think I am hoping to work with him, but only insofar as it improves our ability to communicate and eases the way forward into separation. Especially this is likely to be a drawn out situation - I am going to need the time to get my ducks in a row (my pigeons on a ledge? 😬) especially financially, and given that we will still have one dependant-at-home after the end of the year. And frankly I'm going to need time even after the bird-of-choice is lined up to be able to go it alone financially. I hate that I am the most financially insecure of my entire adult life (I turn 48 this weekend! WTF!?!) but that's where we are. So trying to focus on everything I can do to smooth the transition. In my mind it's happening - I just need to try and make it as gentle and positive as possible so it doesn't devolve to a shitshow. I;ve just decided this is my 50th birthday present to myself lol.

 

The fact that I've come to the conclusion myself that - were I at all able to swing it financially without him - I would just leave, makes me realise this is the logical end game. But I'm acutely conscious about gentling things through in the interim - I guess my concern is that he hears "going to separate" and then just completely shuts down any attempts at improved communication /improved relationship dynamics (wholly platonically but I figure connecting as friends can't be a bad thing and might help him understand more about the issues at play. Possibly I'm being naïve in this wish?) and completely stonewalls which is going to make everything much harder. I guess I figure things are going to be weird and awkward in the best case scenario so I'm trying not to let it devolve to the worst case. 

 

I hope that makes sense... and if I am justifying untenable things you're welcome to call me on it! Not to brag, but I'm kind of an overthinking genius, ha!

 

Quote

Begin. It’s as simple as that. I don’t know your husband, but with mine, stonewalling can be an effective tool to keep things his way. For me, it took hitting the wall to dash the false hope and grab the devil may care approach that moved us forward.

Yes. Thank you. So so true - which is why I'm working on strategies to discourage his stonewalling and improve our ability to effectively communicate our needs. Well frankly - for me to effectively communicate my needs, preferably in a way he can hear. If he chooses not to, it won't be for lack of me meeting him halfway. But halfway is all he gets. 

 

Quote

My wish for you is that you speak your truth, while exercising care, and not worry so much about him over yourself. You matter. Try not to lose sight of that or time. 

Thank you dear heart. 

[exhausted pigeon]

 

It occurred to me that some context might be helpful for anyone reading along… I met husband when I was 17 and he was 33. That actually makes me physically ill thinking about it now* - WTF were my responsible adults (spoiler: they were not responsible) and so he’s effectively my only serious relationship, bar a 9 month boyfriend scenario when I was 15/16…as serious as those “young love” scenarios could be. He’s the 2nd person I’ve ever slept with. He had multiple relationships but never longterm and never particularly serious. Oh hindsight...So there’s a lot to unpack there and I’m embarrassed to own that my "daddy issues" were way on display for everyone before I realised it!

He has always been a very physically fit and youthful appearing person (people always assume he’s only a couple of years older than me) and maybe that muddied things for me too.

Actually I can’t remember why this was relevant to share…I’ll leave it here and come back other it when I remember.

 

I am very tired of job-hunting - my little business is doing well, but not quite enough to sustain me independently. It’s a complete 180 from my 3 uni degrees (1 is a masters in a tricky field) and a labour of love. However, my “trained area of expertise” is tricky to get back into because of my current location, and because I haven’t worked professionally in that area for the 8 years I’ve been doing the business full-time. So I get really fun** rejections from roles that are very junior for me (but I’m happy to do them! You’ll get such great bang for your buck!) in that area and adjacent fields that I’m “over qualified and a great candidate but we wont’ be progressing because you’ve been out of the game for too long”…in a field that is highly skills based but also - those aren’t the sort of skills that expire or change rapidly over the course of a decade (ugh, trying to be vaguely circumspect about sharing details but ffs it’s tricky being coy. Rhymes with schmegal gollicy) Anyway, I got a rejection letter that was so ridiculous today it made me laugh. I applied for a proofreading/editing role for academic transcripts. Got to the 4th step of the process when I need to proof a document. Just got the news today that I was not successful, because I had failed to pick up the incorrect spelling of the author’s name. A convoluted name that absolutely does exist in that form but obviously wasn’t the author’s spelling. A name that also one appeared once in the document, and was referenced nowhere else in the piece. Erm, yeah…you sound like excellent employers!

On the positive though this surely means I am getting even closer to a decent sustainable role that I want to have as much as the employers want me! Right? 😜

 

*My kids are older than I was when I met him. I cannot conceive of any of us thinking this situation might be a good idea if it happened with them. 

**using this word in entirely the wring context!

 

[Traveler40]

3 hours ago, exhausted pigeon said:

I guess my concern is that he hears "going to separate" and then just completely shuts down any attempts at improved communication /improved relationship dynamics

I hear you on this, yet I also had this sense that you truly believe he doesn’t care about you as I read your post.

 

This, unfortunately, is commonly a byproduct message of many mixed orientation relationships. Your relationship seems to compound it by the aro part perhaps. 
 

One of the ways our relationships differ is that while my husband is likely aro/ace, he loves me deeply and I know it. His sexual orientation and lack of ability or desire to meet my needs has nothing to do with base feelings. In our case, the greater good will always win out and he will ultimately act accordingly - aka “be a grown-up”.

 

From your description, there’s very little generosity to his feelings for you or the ability to accept and contribute for the benefit of your children. Is that true or simply a fear?

[exhausted pigeon]

1 hour ago, Traveler40 said:

I hear you on this, yet I also had this sense that you truly believe he doesn’t care about you as I read your post.

 

This, unfortunately, is commonly a byproduct message of many mixed orientation relationships. Your relationship seems to compound it by the aro part perhaps. 
 

One of the ways our relationships differ is that while my husband is likely aro/ace, he loves me deeply and I know it. His sexual orientation and lack of ability or desire to meet my needs has nothing to do with base feelings. In our case, the greater good will always win out and he will ultimately act accordingly - aka “be a grown-up”.

 

From your description, there’s very little generosity to his feelings for you or the ability to accept and contribute for the benefit of your children. Is that true or simply a fear?

I think these are fair comments from what I've said. I truly believe he does love me very much - I'm coming to terms however, with the fact I believe he also is unable to show he cares or to care in a way that I recognise as caring at a level that I need...and sometimes that conflates with me interpreting it as not caring...ugh, it feels messy in my head and is even messier on the page. 

 

I think I was definitely leaning into my fear of worst case scenarios in my posts above. Possibly also allowing my fear of the upcoming changes to feed into that as well? 

 

Thank you so much for your honest responses @Traveler40 and for asking the questions that help me tease things out further and properly clarify my thoughts, feelings and attitude about things. I really appreciate it! 

[exhausted pigeon]

just wanted to add to my comments above, that I need to also be honest about the idea of how much concrete plans to change the status quo make me anxious. Not enough to stop and revert back to the before times, but that it probably does inform some of my thinking around this. I'm not trying to defend how this sometimes feeds into a defensive approach, but rather put it out there so I can recognise it, acknowledge it, and learn to work with it rather than be shaped by it. Change is scary. Being marooned in place is scarier.

 

(note to self!!!)

[uhtred]

5 hours ago, exhausted pigeon said:

 

 

It occurred to me that some context might be helpful for anyone reading along… I met husband when I was 17 and he was 33. That actually makes me physically ill thinking about it now* - WTF were my responsible adults (spoiler: they were not responsible) and so he’s effectively my only serious relationship, bar a 9 month boyfriend scenario when I was 15/16…as serious as those “young love” scenarios could be. He’s the 2nd person I’ve ever slept with. He had multiple relationships but never longterm and never particularly serious. Oh hindsight...So there’s a lot to unpack there and I’m embarrassed to own that my "daddy issues" were way on display for everyone before I realised it!

He has always been a very physically fit and youthful appearing person (people always assume he’s only a couple of years older than me) and maybe that muddied things for me too.

Actually I can’t remember why this was relevant to share…I’ll leave it here and come back other it when I remember.

 

I am very tired of job-hunting - my little business is doing well, but not quite enough to sustain me independently. It’s a complete 180 from my 3 uni degrees (1 is a masters in a tricky field) and a labour of love. However, my “trained area of expertise” is tricky to get back into because of my current location, and because I haven’t worked professionally in that area for the 8 years I’ve been doing the business full-time. So I get really fun** rejections from roles that are very junior for me (but I’m happy to do them! You’ll get such great bang for your buck!) in that area and adjacent fields that I’m “over qualified and a great candidate but we wont’ be progressing because you’ve been out of the game for too long”…in a field that is highly skills based but also - those aren’t the sort of skills that expire or change rapidly over the course of a decade (ugh, trying to be vaguely circumspect about sharing details but ffs it’s tricky being coy. Rhymes with schmegal gollicy) Anyway, I got a rejection letter that was so ridiculous today it made me laugh. I applied for a proofreading/editing role for academic transcripts. Got to the 4th step of the process when I need to proof a document. Just got the news today that I was not successful, because I had failed to pick up the incorrect spelling of the author’s name. A convoluted name that absolutely does exist in that form but obviously wasn’t the author’s spelling. A name that also one appeared once in the document, and was referenced nowhere else in the piece. Erm, yeah…you sound like excellent employers!

On the positive though this surely means I am getting even closer to a decent sustainable role that I want to have as much as the employers want me! Right? 😜

 

*My kids are older than I was when I met him. I cannot conceive of any of us thinking this situation might be a good idea if it happened with them. 

**using this word in entirely the wring context!

 

I think a fair number of people end up in these mismatched relationships out of a lack of prior dating experience. I started dating my wife when we were 17(!) (but we are about the same age as each other).    I think people who have dated a fair bit recognize incompatibilities and move on, but when its a very early relationship, there isn't enough to compare with.   Also as a "people pleaser" you were probably reluctant to leave.
 

Big age gap relationships can work, but I think they are much better when both people have a lot of previous dating experience and can recognize when things are going wrong. There is absolutely an appeal to an older, more mature person but a huge risk of a power imbalance.  Also a concern that a 33 year old would want a relationship with someone so much younger.  I mean being honest, young women can be extremely attractive - but the difference in maturity is a big issue for most people.

 

Finding jobs can be extremely difficult these days, especially if you have been out for  a while.  Needing to stay in a relationship for financial reasons is also very discouraging.  It doesn't really prevent divorce since there is alimony, but it makes the whole thing feel much uglier.

 

You are doing the right thing continuing to look for  a job.

[exhausted pigeon]

Ended up accidentally (ish) having a really big conversation with h tonight around our relationship, emotional connection, and what I understand as us each needing from each other based on recent behaviour and conversations (“what I understand” because I did most of the talking, and I was trying to explain where I was coming from and the information I felt I had available to me to see whether he agreed or we needed to talk more to hash out an understanding for each other on where we each stand).

 

He listened really carefully, asked some insightful probing questions, and generally it was better than anticipated. I felt a tiny bit shitty because he'd had a performance review at work today (not sure of elsewhere but here it's at least a common thing and happens at least annually) and this one wasn't great, so he was a bit stressed about that. He started saying he couldn't concentrate on other stuff because he needed to give work his full concentration and that was what I took as the opportunity to have this conversation. I basically said: your work is really important but so is this. And our relationship has been perpetually put on the back burner whenever something more immediate or urgent comes up (and there's always something if you're looking for an excuse, right?) so I'm not allowing it to go on the back burner now. It doesn't have to push everything else o the wayside, but it needs equal billing. No more stonewalling and no more finding excuses to avoid it.

 

I also used the phrase “you don’t owe me sex, or intimacy, but you do owe me communication”* during the conversation which I found incredibly helpful to use as a springboard for why opening the communication channels is so fundamental and necessary  for me, and how we can’t do anything without it. It really helped me frame the conversation about how when** our marriage ends there are 2 outcomes - we do it with love and respect and working together to create a kind and empathetic new relationship going forward, modelling good practice for our kids and each other…or we let the communication stalemate where it is (or break down even further) which means we have no hope of a kind and compassionate, respectful uncoupling, and everything gets exponentially shittier.

 

It ended up being helpful. and a lot of information. I focussed on telling him how I felt and how the cumulation of past behaviours inform how I react or interpret things that happen now, and what I need from him to be able to open communication lines enough to even see what we’re dealing with. That I appreciate it’s scary and vulnerable but we owe it to each other to at least open those lines in a way that’s honest and respectful and in good faith. Nothing else can happen without that base level. I went so far as to say I don’t know whether we’ll be able to stay together, but I know we absolutely can’t if we can’t communicate more openly. And that this is our last chance. I’m not backing off and I’m not putting up with any stonewalling or ignoring.

 

I also (and I’m not entirely sure how I got on to this part) gently introduced the idea of my suspicions he falls somewhere on the ace/aro spectrum and very briefly explained what that was***, and how I'd come to the conclusion. He didn't add anything to my thoughts on this, but listened attentively and honestly didn't seem shocked or horrified by the suggestion (which I was partly expecting - I thought he might feel his masculinity was being called into question. I was pleasantly surprised) which makes me think on some level he's been doing some contemplation in this regard, even if not entirely consciously. I also explained that I understood he had no desire to be sexually intimate with me, and that I didn't have any desire to be sexually intimate with him either. He looked a little surprised/nonplussed by that, so I explained that I couldn't trust any overture from him after so much rejection, and that he was no longer a safe person for me sexually, and I had no sexual desire for him. (I had said exactly this at counselling last week but I suspect it might have all been a bit much at the time). That no matter what happens the nature of our relationship will be changing, but that we both have the power to work together to make the change respectful and open and ensure we're both on the same page. But also that I won't be taking responsibility for it alone, and that I need him to be proactive as well. That historically I've always been the initiator and the result is that it feels like I want/am more invested in this relationship/communication more than he is; that if he means what he says (about wanting to work together), he needs to back that up by doing the work. That being proactive will help show me that he is coming to the conversation in good faith and with best intent. If I end up having to open every conversation or initiate everything, then I'm going to take that as an explicit indicator from him that he's not interested in working with me on this, and I will proceed accordingly. 

 

I'm just now realising we didn't talk about timeframes and we should do that...just to help hold us both accountable. 

 

 

 

*It’s absolutely  driving me to distraction because I saw the phrase on VENA and now I cant for the life of me remember who said it. The original phrase was more along the lines of “you don’t owe me sex but you owe me communication”. @traveler40 keeps springing to mind, but I might not be correct. Whoever it was, thank you thank you thank you!!!

 

** though I phrased it as “if” for him here. I didn’t want the conversation to get derailed at this point. It worked

 

*** he has a rudimentary understanding of ace since one of our sons is ace